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(subtitles on)

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You once created a sensation
with the statement:

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"The Holocaust is the biggest
and most persistent lie in history."

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What do you mean by that?

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Well, naturally I said that
somewhat in the style of Faurisson,

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of Robert Faurisson, who was one of the first
to look for these alleged gas chambers

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— in the concentration camps —

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and found none.

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And I mean it in this sense today:

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there is, I believe, no lie that has operated
more persistently and transformatively

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and indeed not only in Germany
but practically worldwide

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as this Holocaust.

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I would have to search a long time
to find something equivalent.

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Because it didn't happen,
you believe.

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Yes, well.  If it couldn't have worked with Zyklon B
the way it is described,

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if there were no gas chambers
as many people meanwhile have said,

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then the question must be answered:
Where, then, were the six million killed?

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For five years I have asked this question
systematically, with friends,

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and received no answer,
not one.

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Then I wrote to the Justice Minister:
"This is the situation.

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Could we now please have a public debate
between both sides, pro and con?"

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No answer.

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So then I wrote to him:

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"Since you have no answer to that for me
all that remains

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is to draw the natural inference
and admit the conclusion:

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There was no Holocaust."

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And in that case it really is
the biggest lie ever.

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I mean, there are legal experts who say

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that the whole post-war political system
will fall apart if THAT is questioned.

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That's why it's so vehemently defended,
quite logically.

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All that is, naturally, for . . . for —

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" . . . the normal citizen today
a slap in the face."

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— Exactly.
— Yes.

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Everyone has learned it that way:

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the Holocaust happened,
it happened with six million deaths . . .

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Could you explain once more,
in a few sentences as it were,

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why the Holocaust, for you, is a —
is the biggest lie in history?

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Because it's the most persistent,
because it has had the most impact.

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And when one can't get a straight answer
even from the Central Council of Jews in Germany

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— and I've written to them at least four times
on this account —

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as to where the Jews were killed,

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then that's one answer right there
[to your question].

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And the second answer
is that when one needs a law

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that sets the Holocaust in stone
and threatens punishment

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if anyone investigates it openly,
well, there you have the next problem, no?

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For the truth needs no laws.

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In other words, that —

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It's clear from that
that something's not right.

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And when one considers
all that has been built upon it,

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and when the legal experts say that the whole
post-war political system would fall apart

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if it were to be questioned,

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then really it is rather clear
that it is the biggest —

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the biggest lie —
since one gets no answers.

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And "Auschwitz" cannot stand.

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Seventy years after
— after the Holocaust —

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naturally you might now just say
you want to live your last years in peace.

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What keeps you going?

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Well, just these same contradictions
that weigh down people's lives.

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And — I must add this as well —
it is the members of my generation

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who suffered so terribly.

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Everything that is said
about atrocities

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is only ever said
with respect to others.

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What is never mentioned, however
— there are no big memorials —

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is that fifteen million Germans from the lost
eastern provinces, myself among them,

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were driven from their homes.

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That's equivalent to the entire population
of Scandinavia.

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Try to imagine, that was it —
a notice would appear on the door:

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"You must vacate the house by tomorrow
at such-and-such o'clock,

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keys are to be left in the door,

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you may take with you
no more than 20 kg each."

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And then they came.  And as a result
two-and-a-half to three million people

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truly brutally murdered: raped to death,
crushed beneath tanks, and so on.

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And even Konrad Adenauer said
in his first Bernauer speech

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in 1949, shortly after the founding
of the Federal Republic:

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"We have many problems,
but the biggest problem is the —"

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he says fourteen million, he claims
to know that from the Americans —

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"the fourteen million German expellees, of whom
six million have never arrived.

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They are dead and gone."

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Remarkably, he says six million.

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Today actually we know
that it is probably three-and-a-half

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or two-and-a-half — it's never been possible
to determine exactly how many didn't arrive,

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but perhaps Adenauer was right after all
and we simply don't know.

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It's all a muddle.
( — But one cannot . . . )

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But in any case, the number of victims at Dresden
was not 25,000, as is claimed today.

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That would mean that Dresden
was practically empty, right?

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Now there you have a lie so big
it can't be topped either.

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The authorities in Dresden itself
told me, after reunification

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— I had asked  what was said in Dresden
about the number of the dead —

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"About 235,000 —
as far as we can determine.

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But there could be many more
still lying under the rubble."

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And then fifteen years later,
when I heard

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that a new group of historians
was working on the problem

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I asked again at the very same institute
and they told me

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"Well, right now we have 35,000
but it will probably come to 25,00."

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So you see, there are all sorts of lies
from all sorts of sides,

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only the other side's
are weightier.

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And then, of course, above all else
this practically forced me into it:

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if we want a future
that is humane and sustainable

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then we can't get there with lies.

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For then we need a solid foundation
— among the different peoples too —

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and that solid foundation
can only be the truth.

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And that's the reason why this question
must be re-examined.

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And the crazy part is,
the more you ask questions

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and try to get some ground
beneath your feet

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the bigger the questions become.

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And what do the courts do?

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They have tried to hide their ignorance,
as I really must call it,

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behind the word "self-evident."

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And that is connected with this Paragraph 130
[of the German Criminal Code]

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"Racial Incitation"

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which was formulated and presented
to the Bundestag as a bill in 1994.

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And the Bundestag Deputies said no,
that won't do,

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that's irreconcilable with Article 5
[of the German Constitution]

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"Freedom of Expression"
"Freedom of Research."

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And then the whole lot got such a working over
that on the second or third reading —

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I can't exactly recall now,
there's something you can research —

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they passed the paragraph
by a majority.

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And this paragraph, which in its language
is already an absurdity —

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it says, namely, that "a punishment
of up to five years in prison or a fine

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will be assessed on anyone"
— and then comes a reference to international law —

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"who approves of, denies or minimizes
the crimes committed by National Socialism

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in a manner that is apt
to disturb the public peace."

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So first of all it says crimes
COMMITTED by National Socialism.

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It can't just be said, or believed or claimed,
it has to be an established fact.

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But in the meantime this "fact"
is much disputed,

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and so already
that can be eliminated.

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Next comes "approve of."

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The greatest crime
ever committed by humanity

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— which is what the Holocaust would be —

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could hardly be "approved of" by anyone
if it were unequivocal.

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It's the same, for that matter, even if its just
a single serious traffic accident

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or a single murder:

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the majority of people will cry
"severest penalty!" Right?

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People are always calling for the severest penalty,
they don't approve of these things.

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So that's all very unclear.

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And then, I was once in the Federal
Administrative Court in Leipzig

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on account of the Collegium institute,

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and the discussion turned
to the word "deny."

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And the judge admitted, the presiding judge
— there were five in all —

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"Indeed, we must in fact prove
that you're convinced the Holocaust happened.

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For 'to deny' something means  — "
(I had said this myself earlier)

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"to claim something
against one's better knowledge.

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The word 'deny'
depends on the word 'lie.'"

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So if you accuse me
of having denied something

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then you must prove against me
— the judge was quite right —

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that I actually believe it.

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And yet they do the exact opposite
in their indictments.

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And so that falls apart.

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And as for "minimize," he said,

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"It's really not entirely clear
that that should be punishable."  Good.

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Moreover, it's not the case that ANY denial
or ANY minimization

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entails a punishment, but rather ONLY —

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[aside, unclear]

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if it is apt to —

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if it's done in a manner
that is apt to disturb the public peace.

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And here the Federal Constitutional Court
says, quite correctly

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— in 2009, in the famous
Wunsiedel Decision —

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That is an assumption.

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Who's to say if it is "apt" or not?

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How do they know that some statement
somewhere is "apt" to do so?

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The "public peace."
What after all is the public peace?

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That is all mere assumption.

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If that is the sole point

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on the basis of which a statement
is liable to punishment,

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and it is only an assumption,

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then, says the Federal Constitutional Court,
the whole thing is legally untenable.

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Indeed, jurist Heribert Prantl has gone so far
as to write in the "Süddeutschen Zeitung"

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that the Holocaust, this Paragraph 130,
thus becomes no more than an empty shell

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that is no longer legally applicable.

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And yet it still has not been struck down
in the Bundestag.

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But that's just what an absurdity
this law is:

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one sees clearly how the Deputies disagreed
and were at odds with themselves,

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and thus wound up making this monstrous
verbal formulation

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in which everything's back to front
and nothing make sense.

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And afterwards they could take,
for example, someone like Germar Rudolf,

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a chemist, who made a study
of a chemical substance

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and whose results didn't sit well
with the political world,

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and put him in jail
for three and a half years.

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And Horst Mahler for twelve.
Right?

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On the basis of such a law.

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And that must inwardly outrage
any decent person

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and awake real doubt in a so-called
nation of laws

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that allows such a thing.

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That really is something that,
naturally, spurred me to action

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for I want a nation of laws,
I don't want a nation of un-laws,

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I don't want a nation that constantly talks
of law and justice and so on

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— of "freedom of expression"
as in France again right now —

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and does the opposite.

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That is the situation that really
upsets me the most,

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that it was my own generation
that suffered so terribly

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and no one talks about that.

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Everyone only talks about
the six million Jews.

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No school child knows how many
of the German expellees died,

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they don't even know that Breslau
was a German city.

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That is unbearable.

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So you go about openly claiming
that Holocaust never happened.

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Yes, naturally, just so.

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And I also say — and I put this
on the Internet as well —

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that that doesn't mean, however, that
a single revisionist has ever claimed

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that there were no concentration camps.

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Of course there were concentration camps,
and bad things happened in them.

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And there even were four
concentration camp commandants

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who were prosecuted
by an SS court-martial

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because they, in violation of the regulations
in the Commandants' Orders,

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did not deal with prisoners
appropriately

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but rather struck them
or even shot some, and so on.

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And that was strictly forbidden
and two of them were executed.

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But here's the kicker:

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I don't know that from the Jews
who are always accusing us,

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I know that from the revisionists —

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they're the ones who discovered
that such cases occurred

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and that the SS in fact
took the strictest measures against them.

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So none of us would ever say
that nothing happened there.

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Of course things happened.

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In times of war, the negative qualities in people
are always aroused and encouraged

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and to that extent . . .

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But that has nothing to do
with the notion that

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a unique, unparalleled, enormous crime
was committed by the Germans

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One must see this in context.

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So, if I understand you correctly,
the concentration camps did exist

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but a program of mass extermination, in the sense
we understand it today, did not.

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Well then, what happened
in the camps?

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Auschwitz was quite simply
a huge industrial complex

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and they performed very valuable work there
for the armaments industry.

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So the prisoners who were there
were rightly there?

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That's another thing Prof. Nolte
has established.

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If one goes by the Hague Conventions
on Land War

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then every state,
in the event of war,

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has the right to intern enemy nationals
residing in its territory

230
00:13:30,379 --> 00:13:34,240
because the danger exists
that they may commit espionage.

231
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:35,359
Everyone did it.

232
00:13:35,384 --> 00:13:38,066
For example, one of my uncles
was in India at the time

233
00:13:38,090 --> 00:13:40,090
but the English were there and so
he was interned there.

234
00:13:40,098 --> 00:13:43,304
My mother's brother was in America
and he was interned there.

235
00:13:43,329 --> 00:13:45,020
Everyone did it.

236
00:13:45,020 --> 00:13:49,954
And um, the Russians did it too, of course.
One mustn't forget that.

237
00:13:49,979 --> 00:13:51,754
Against that background, then,

238
00:13:51,779 --> 00:13:56,010
what you're saying is that what happened
in Auschwitz was right.

239
00:13:56,010 --> 00:13:58,940
Right?  Well, "right" is rather . . .

240
00:13:58,940 --> 00:14:02,795
It was legally unassailable,
let's put it that way.

241
00:14:02,820 --> 00:14:05,100
As to whether I find it "right"
that people were . . .

242
00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:09,365
But then, my own high school class
was also mobilized

243
00:14:09,390 --> 00:14:14,174
for the armaments industry
and we too had to work on armaments.

244
00:14:14,199 --> 00:14:17,590
For example, I painted munitions crates
and the like.

245
00:14:17,590 --> 00:14:22,155
So it wasn't just them — we were all
mobilized, especially during the last year.

246
00:14:22,180 --> 00:14:23,314
Nor was that a special case.

247
00:14:23,338 --> 00:14:27,775
We all had very little to eat and hardly
anything to wear, and above all no shoes.

248
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,443
Or none that fit: young people's feet
are always growing

249
00:14:30,467 --> 00:14:32,870
and we'd have to cut the fronts off.

250
00:14:32,895 --> 00:14:36,552
I'd like to turn now
to the "Garrison and Commandant Orders."

251
00:14:36,577 --> 00:14:43,085
Yes, these are truly paradigm-changing,
even for me when I first read them.

252
00:14:43,110 --> 00:14:46,499
For these details — for example
these dealing with nutrition.

253
00:14:46,499 --> 00:14:50,740
They're not in here, they're in
the Special Orders.

254
00:14:50,740 --> 00:14:53,950
They actually recommended

255
00:14:53,950 --> 00:14:57,390
what we had to painstakingly learn in our
senior Home Ec cooking class:

256
00:14:57,390 --> 00:15:00,205
not to overcook vegetables

257
00:15:00,230 --> 00:15:03,100
but rather to cook half
until they are just soft

258
00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:07,869
and to just steam the other half
as quickly as possible

259
00:15:07,894 --> 00:15:10,430
because then the vitamins
are preserved better.

260
00:15:10,430 --> 00:15:14,044
And then they told them they must go out
and gather wild herbs and the like

261
00:15:14,069 --> 00:15:18,160
and put them raw on top,
in place of parsley as it were.

262
00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:25,325
And that they were to make a hearty, thick soup —
not a thin broth, but a thick soup.

263
00:15:25,350 --> 00:15:30,504
And if the cook didn't, then he was to be removed
and another cook put in his place.

264
00:15:30,529 --> 00:15:32,717
That was the sort of thing they were
concerned with —

265
00:15:32,741 --> 00:15:35,105
in the middle of the war!
It's really most remarkable.

266
00:15:35,130 --> 00:15:38,852
What conclusion do you draw from these
"Garrison and Commandant Orders"?

267
00:15:38,877 --> 00:15:45,795
I draw the conclusion, that here we have
the ultimate, perhaps most outstanding proof

268
00:15:45,820 --> 00:15:50,205
that Auschwitz was not an extermination camp
but rather a work camp

269
00:15:50,230 --> 00:15:56,370
in which all of the workers interned there
were indispensable for the armaments industry.

270
00:15:56,395 --> 00:15:58,238
That's what is said quite clearly,
isn't it.

271
00:15:58,263 --> 00:16:00,437
So there was no mass extermination
at Auschwitz?

272
00:16:00,462 --> 00:16:04,120
No, one cannot want to have armaments workers
and exterminate them at the same time

273
00:16:04,144 --> 00:16:06,325
that makes no sense,
it's a self-contradiction.

274
00:16:06,350 --> 00:16:09,720
And it makes even less sense
when one asks them later,

275
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,540
"Would you like to stay and be liberated
or would you like to come with us to the Reich?"

276
00:16:13,565 --> 00:16:15,910
and they say,
"No, we'd rather go with our murderers."

277
00:16:15,910 --> 00:16:17,402
It's schizophrenic.

278
00:16:17,427 --> 00:16:20,210
What did you think when you read that
for the first time?

279
00:16:20,210 --> 00:16:23,755
Frankly I was rather amazed that
it was all so clearly laid out here.

280
00:16:23,780 --> 00:16:26,963
— Until then I had . . .
— What is so clearly laid out?

281
00:16:26,987 --> 00:16:31,293
That it was a work camp.  Which is just
what the veterans had always said.

282
00:16:31,318 --> 00:16:33,595
And everyone jumped all over them.

283
00:16:33,620 --> 00:16:38,125
And yet they were right,
that's the really painful part.

284
00:16:38,150 --> 00:16:40,221
Is there anything about the gas chambers?

285
00:16:40,246 --> 00:16:44,249
No, nothing at all.  And they can't
be inferred from Reich orders either.

286
00:16:44,249 --> 00:16:48,664
How do you explain the fact
that the gas chambers are not mentioned?

287
00:16:48,689 --> 00:16:54,470
Because there weren't any, naturally.
One cannot mention something that doesn't exist.

288
00:16:54,470 --> 00:17:01,447
Why do you want to cling to the gas chambers
when you can read what is written here?

289
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,740
Above all, I find it presumptuous
of people living today

290
00:17:04,740 --> 00:17:07,639
who think they know better than those
who actually lived then.

291
00:17:07,639 --> 00:17:11,720
And the people who were there,
all the old defendants said:

292
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,350
"We never saw anything like that."

293
00:17:14,350 --> 00:17:16,880
But we know better what it was like there!

294
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,260
We know better what it was like in the Third Reich
than those who lived through it.

295
00:17:20,285 --> 00:17:25,755
That's the great failing, the lack
of self-critique in those talking today.

296
00:17:25,780 --> 00:17:29,945
That's what is so astounding here
and what . . .

297
00:17:29,970 --> 00:17:35,064
In other words, you conclude from the fact
that no gas chambers are mentioned

298
00:17:35,089 --> 00:17:39,612
that at the camp at Auschwitz-Birkenau
there weren't any.

299
00:17:39,637 --> 00:17:42,383
No, you you just have to remember
what I said earlier.

300
00:17:42,408 --> 00:17:47,940
That goes along with the fact that one
simply couldn't have done it with Zyklon B.

301
00:17:47,940 --> 00:17:49,610
It wouldn't work.

302
00:17:49,635 --> 00:17:55,459
I mean, we live in a scientific age!
We have to listen to the experts.

303
00:17:55,484 --> 00:17:58,563
And when the chemist Germar Rudolf says
it wouldn't work

304
00:17:58,588 --> 00:18:01,070
and every chemical dictionary
says so too,

305
00:18:01,070 --> 00:18:06,140
and when Fred Leuchter,
the sole living expert in gas chambers

306
00:18:06,165 --> 00:18:09,785
— for there still are states in America
that use them to execute people —

307
00:18:09,810 --> 00:18:12,222
takes a look at what is claimed
and says,

308
00:18:12,247 --> 00:18:15,778
"That's completely absurd.  One can
execute a single individual

309
00:18:15,779 --> 00:18:20,001
in a hermetically sealed, highly complex
technical structure,

310
00:18:20,025 --> 00:18:21,339
in such-and-such amount of time . . . "

311
00:18:21,340 --> 00:18:23,006
then the whole thing falls apart.

312
00:18:23,006 --> 00:18:28,305
And I am not ready to just take the lawyers
at their word that they know better.

313
00:18:28,330 --> 00:18:30,546
And I don't just take others
at their word either.

314
00:18:30,571 --> 00:18:35,470
But then that's why
they didn't promote this book.

315
00:18:35,470 --> 00:18:36,990
They didn't promote it!

316
00:18:36,990 --> 00:18:40,053
What are the points
that most persuaded you?

317
00:18:40,078 --> 00:18:43,330
All right, 7 February 1944:
"Prisoner Transports."

318
00:18:43,354 --> 00:18:43,806
— OK.

319
00:18:43,807 --> 00:18:47,335
I find this quite astonishing,
shall I read it out here?

320
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:49,971
I can just sum it up.

321
00:18:49,996 --> 00:18:55,540
It is ordered that the camp doctor
must first examine all prisoners

322
00:18:55,565 --> 00:18:57,290
before they go into the transport.

323
00:18:57,290 --> 00:19:00,122
Then how the transport wagons
are to be procured.

324
00:19:00,147 --> 00:19:03,812
If it's cold, each car must be
thickly strewn with straw

325
00:19:03,837 --> 00:19:07,605
and there must be a stove inside,
and above all else

326
00:19:07,630 --> 00:19:09,978
— our people would have loved
to have had that —

327
00:19:10,003 --> 00:19:12,950
there must be boiled water or tea
available inside.

328
00:19:12,950 --> 00:19:17,918
And also stated explicitly:
to take along sufficient food

329
00:19:17,943 --> 00:19:21,029
— the transports could be delayed
by bombing attacks —

330
00:19:21,029 --> 00:19:24,400
in order that no one should starve.

331
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,380
Our people went for seven days
without getting anything to eat.

332
00:19:28,380 --> 00:19:33,394
So yes, that's quite striking.
And it's also quite striking here . . .

333
00:19:33,419 --> 00:19:37,362
where it is again related
how the sick are to be handled.

334
00:19:37,387 --> 00:19:38,648
Indeed there was . . .

335
00:19:38,673 --> 00:19:44,100
The Red Cross — I believe it was the Red Cross —
also inspected Auschwitz

336
00:19:44,125 --> 00:19:47,910
and they found
a very modern clinic there.

337
00:19:47,910 --> 00:19:51,630
And the sick were looked after
very carefully

338
00:19:51,630 --> 00:19:53,960
in order that they become healthy again
as quickly as possible.

339
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,365
And also about the special diet —
there was a special diet

340
00:19:57,390 --> 00:20:02,725
though naturally they had to provide it
only within this infirmary.

341
00:20:02,750 --> 00:20:08,921
And that the condition of clothing
must be continuously monitored, especially shoes.

342
00:20:08,946 --> 00:20:10,300
That makes sense.

343
00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:15,560
And then, hard-working prisoners could even
earn special privileges

344
00:20:15,585 --> 00:20:18,865
— they even received bonuses
for extra piecework —

345
00:20:18,890 --> 00:20:24,545
or their industriousness could be so rewarded
that they be given early release.

346
00:20:24,570 --> 00:20:25,570
There's that too.

347
00:20:25,570 --> 00:20:26,930
It's all in here.

348
00:20:26,930 --> 00:20:28,930
Do you believe it also happened?

349
00:20:28,930 --> 00:20:30,470
I would assume so.

350
00:20:30,470 --> 00:20:32,327
Whether it still happened in the last . . .

351
00:20:32,351 --> 00:20:34,238
What year is it here?

352
00:20:34,262 --> 00:20:35,636
1944 . . . in February.

353
00:20:35,661 --> 00:20:38,750
Whether that was still possible at the end
of 1944, I doubt, but . . .

354
00:20:38,750 --> 00:20:41,099
In the footnotes there's a comment
on this point

355
00:20:41,124 --> 00:20:45,099
that "No prisoner ever obtained freedom
on account of industriousness.

356
00:20:45,124 --> 00:20:48,877
Despite repeated directives from
the SS Economic and Administrative Office,

357
00:20:48,902 --> 00:20:53,882
the goal of interning and punishing
concentration camp prisoners

358
00:20:53,907 --> 00:20:58,136
retained priority over the efficiency
of labor deployment."

359
00:20:58,161 --> 00:21:00,386
— Does that not contradict . . . ?
— Yes, but where . . .

360
00:21:00,411 --> 00:21:02,686
Where did the commentator in question
get that from?

361
00:21:02,711 --> 00:21:07,810
It reminds one of the Foreword,
which also completely dodges the issue.

362
00:21:07,810 --> 00:21:11,745
So I would immediately ask,
where do you know that from then?

363
00:21:11,770 --> 00:21:17,565
If the order says one thing, how can you,
a person living today, simply claim the opposite?

364
00:21:17,590 --> 00:21:20,140
You'll have to prove that to me, please.

365
00:21:20,140 --> 00:21:24,140
We are too trusting.
We'll believe anything people say today.

366
00:21:24,140 --> 00:21:27,070
If someone says
"I experienced such and such"

367
00:21:27,070 --> 00:21:32,069
then I can't simply claim the opposite,
I have to prove it.

368
00:21:32,094 --> 00:21:35,615
Anyway, you know the lot —
Otto Uthgennant and Enrico Marco

369
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,040
and whatever they're called,
all the people who have lied about us.

370
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:42,179
Initially they got — they had to observe
a two-hour midday break

371
00:21:42,204 --> 00:21:45,415
and have an evening break
at four or five o'clock.

372
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,093
And during the break, the deployment leader
had to make sure

373
00:21:48,118 --> 00:21:52,075
that they did not receive
any additional assignments.

374
00:21:52,100 --> 00:21:57,886
Because, first of all, one gets more out
of one's food when one rests afterwards

375
00:21:57,911 --> 00:22:01,175
and secondly, because only then
is one capable of working.

376
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,050
This sleep-break directive
really surprised me, I must confess.

377
00:22:05,050 --> 00:22:06,640
What do you conclude from it?

378
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,090
That they wanted to have good workers.

379
00:22:09,123 --> 00:22:15,140
Curiously, it even says somewhere that there were
very good watchmakers among the Jews

380
00:22:15,165 --> 00:22:17,910
who were then to be sent on
to special locations.

381
00:22:17,935 --> 00:22:21,850
I never knew that the Jews
were especially good watchmakers.

382
00:22:21,850 --> 00:22:25,322
So one's always finding something here
that's odd — or astounding.

383
00:22:26,110 --> 00:22:30,080
"Foot-inspection for prisoners
in every subcamp."  Hmm?

384
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,540
"Foot-inspection to be held 3 times [weekly]
among the prisoners

385
00:22:33,565 --> 00:22:37,019
to check on foot injuries
and cleanliness of prisoners."

386
00:22:37,044 --> 00:22:38,247
You see they placed —

387
00:22:38,271 --> 00:22:41,115
on account of this terrible
typhus epidemic

388
00:22:41,140 --> 00:22:45,785
they placed, they HAD to place,
enormous value on hygiene.

389
00:22:45,810 --> 00:22:48,500
And as a result
this had to be respected.

390
00:22:48,525 --> 00:22:53,375
And hair had to be shorn not only among
the prisoners but among the SS men as well.

391
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,980
Because that's where the lice usually
would get established.

392
00:22:55,980 --> 00:22:59,850
And they still weren't at all past
this typhus epidemic.

393
00:22:59,850 --> 00:23:01,858
And I have also —
Was it in here?

394
00:23:01,883 --> 00:23:06,930
Somewhere, anyway, I've read that the lice
were brought into the camp from outside:

395
00:23:06,930 --> 00:23:10,595
the prisoners themselves
had no lice.

396
00:23:10,620 --> 00:23:13,420
Naturally I can't verify that,
I can only take it as is.

397
00:23:13,445 --> 00:23:16,354
So, in addition to everything
up to this point,

398
00:23:16,379 --> 00:23:21,313
it really is quite remarkable
what it says here

399
00:23:21,338 --> 00:23:24,590
under the title
"Mistreatment of Prisoners":

400
00:23:24,590 --> 00:23:31,295
"On this occasion, I once more expressly
draw attention to the standing order

401
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,910
that no SS man may lay a hand
on a prisoner.

402
00:23:35,910 --> 00:23:40,425
In this fifth year of the war
every emphasis must be placed

403
00:23:40,450 --> 00:23:43,930
on maintaining the working strength
of the prisoners.

404
00:23:43,930 --> 00:23:48,200
Should a prisoner violate regulations
then a report should be made."

405
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,183
So they weren't allowed
to do it themselves.

406
00:23:50,208 --> 00:23:53,838
And that's why I said earlier
and I point out again

407
00:23:53,863 --> 00:24:00,845
that strict punishments were carried out
for any SS men who didn't follow such orders.

408
00:24:00,870 --> 00:24:04,845
— One can thus . . .
— What conclusion you draw from that?

409
00:24:04,870 --> 00:24:08,531
Against the background [of claims]
that at Auschwitz-Birkenau

410
00:24:08,556 --> 00:24:12,340
people were mistreated
and ultimately killed?

411
00:24:12,365 --> 00:24:16,460
Presumably it's the same
as what the English and Americans did

412
00:24:16,485 --> 00:24:19,590
as they entered Germany
and distributed propaganda leaflets

413
00:24:19,590 --> 00:24:25,548
to "inform" their soldiers of the terrible atrocities
that the Germans supposedly committed

414
00:24:25,573 --> 00:24:30,600
because the soldiers were so appalled
by the destruction of German cities.

415
00:24:30,625 --> 00:24:34,243
And to make it comprehensible to them
that this was justified

416
00:24:34,268 --> 00:24:37,899
they distributed these leaflets
claiming the most awful atrocities

417
00:24:37,899 --> 00:24:41,148
which they hadn't, however, "discovered"
among the Germans — they made them up.

418
00:24:41,173 --> 00:24:44,705
Sefton Delmer himself said that, right?

419
00:24:44,730 --> 00:24:48,096
And here
it's just the same:

420
00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:51,954
everything has been twisted
and turned into its opposite.

421
00:24:51,979 --> 00:24:56,411
And sadly one must also say
that a great deal, for example,

422
00:24:56,436 --> 00:25:02,350
of what German POWs went through
on the Rheinwiesen or in the gulags in Russia,

423
00:25:02,375 --> 00:25:07,062
they accused us of, to distract from their own —
And the Russians themselves said so.

424
00:25:07,087 --> 00:25:11,948
It was them,
that Bolshevism-infected army,

425
00:25:11,973 --> 00:25:15,358
that actually encouraged its soldiers
to rape women.

426
00:25:15,383 --> 00:25:17,523
On our side that stood
under penalty of death.

427
00:25:17,548 --> 00:25:24,005
We had two very good friends,
one my husband's and one my father's,

428
00:25:24,030 --> 00:25:31,175
who discovered that a man in their unit
had raped a Pole or a Russian.

429
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,871
And they had to hand them over
to a military court martial

430
00:25:33,896 --> 00:25:36,130
even though they needed
every man they had for the war,

431
00:25:36,130 --> 00:25:39,539
knowing full well
that they would be executed.

432
00:25:39,564 --> 00:25:41,900
And that weighed upon them
for their whole lives.

433
00:25:41,900 --> 00:25:43,870
But that's just how strict it was.

434
00:25:43,870 --> 00:25:50,115
Why do these Garrison Orders, in your eyes,
have supreme, independent credibility?

435
00:25:50,140 --> 00:25:52,121
Because they are originals.

436
00:25:52,146 --> 00:25:57,380
And because they're also consistent
with the Reich Orders decoded by Enigma.

437
00:25:57,380 --> 00:25:59,092
It's no anomaly.

438
00:25:59,117 --> 00:26:01,031
Each side complements
the other.

439
00:26:01,056 --> 00:26:06,395
And they are complementary as well
with the stories of those who lived through it all.

440
00:26:06,420 --> 00:26:12,400
And to that extent they are
the final confirmation that was missing.

441
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,760
If they are such paradigm-changing documents,
why haven't they been talked about?

442
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,840
You can answer for that yourself.
Because it wasn't desirable.

443
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,091
To whom?

444
00:26:22,116 --> 00:26:26,342
Them.  The people who brought
the whole business about.

445
00:26:26,367 --> 00:26:28,950
Why publish it then?

446
00:26:28,950 --> 00:26:32,588
Because one feels —
That's just it, I said this earlier.

447
00:26:32,613 --> 00:26:34,513
Wherever you go, you find
this sort and that sort.

448
00:26:34,538 --> 00:26:37,243
And that goes as well
for these institutes.

449
00:26:37,268 --> 00:26:42,610
Martin Broszat, for example, when he said
that there were no gassings in Germany itself

450
00:26:42,610 --> 00:26:45,590
— authentic, from the Institute
for Contemporary History —

451
00:26:45,590 --> 00:26:49,635
after they'd been saying for more than a decade
that there were gassings everywhere.

452
00:26:49,660 --> 00:26:52,765
And that's just how it is:

453
00:26:52,790 --> 00:26:59,835
one tries to pass off the negative things
one has done onto the other, defeated side

454
00:26:59,860 --> 00:27:02,164
and history is always written
by the victors.

455
00:27:02,189 --> 00:27:06,905
And so they had this material,
and they thought, "We must publish this,

456
00:27:06,930 --> 00:27:11,105
as the Institute for Contemporary History
we cannot just lock it away."

457
00:27:11,130 --> 00:27:16,213
But it simply wasn't discussed.
And so for ten years it remained in obscurity.

458
00:27:16,238 --> 00:27:22,984
Could it be that the responsible officials
who wrote these orders

459
00:27:23,009 --> 00:27:30,938
consciously left out the aspect
of the extermination of prisoners, or internees,

460
00:27:30,963 --> 00:27:35,159
in order to leave no evidence
for the future, as it were?

461
00:27:35,184 --> 00:27:38,077
That would be completely unrealistic,
in the middle of war.

462
00:27:38,101 --> 00:27:40,154
The question is completely unrealistic.

463
00:27:40,179 --> 00:27:43,455
In the middle of a war in which one
is fighting for one's very survival,

464
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:48,568
and one's trying to reach the labor quotas
that are being demanded of one,

465
00:27:48,593 --> 00:27:51,721
they wouldn't have had
five minutes for such a thing.

466
00:27:51,746 --> 00:27:54,610
It's simply unimaginable.

467
00:27:54,610 --> 00:27:57,258
Everyone still believed
in victory.

468
00:27:57,283 --> 00:28:00,615
It was only very late in the war
that people started to doubt.

469
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,772
The book has been published
for some time now . . .

470
00:28:03,797 --> 00:28:12,629
It was published in 2000, but only came
to the attention of a few historians in 2013.

471
00:28:12,653 --> 00:28:13,786
Before that, it was dead.

472
00:28:13,811 --> 00:28:14,563
Why?

473
00:28:14,564 --> 00:28:16,289
Because people had decided . . .

474
00:28:16,314 --> 00:28:21,290
So really Norbert Frei, as editor, should have said
that history has to be rewritten here

475
00:28:21,290 --> 00:28:22,711
or at least, the history
of the Holocaust.

476
00:28:22,736 --> 00:28:26,088
So you say: he should have said that.
But you know that Germans are all afraid.

477
00:28:26,113 --> 00:28:27,483
Back then, there still weren't —

478
00:28:27,508 --> 00:28:29,473
To be fair to him,
I would even say

479
00:28:29,498 --> 00:28:31,449
there hadn't yet been
all those trials,

480
00:28:31,473 --> 00:28:35,225
there weren't yet so many facts
that had come to light, so many contradictions,

481
00:28:35,250 --> 00:28:37,465
in 2000 as today.

482
00:28:37,490 --> 00:28:44,523
To that extent, fear of the consequences
for one's career and one's fate

483
00:28:44,548 --> 00:28:49,707
really was much more pressing then
than it is today.

484
00:28:49,732 --> 00:28:54,490
Today one can say more, because meanwhile
more contradictions have become evident.

485
00:28:54,490 --> 00:28:56,460
That still wasn't possible then.

486
00:28:56,460 --> 00:29:01,828
So I would grant Frei that much, that he
— that they all, all five of them here —

487
00:29:01,853 --> 00:29:05,545
might have said, "But we'll keep quiet about that.
We won't discuss it.

488
00:29:05,570 --> 00:29:08,237
We have to do it
because we're historians

489
00:29:08,261 --> 00:29:12,365
and the Institute for Contemporary History
has such things as its mission, but . . .

490
00:29:12,390 --> 00:29:16,522
we won't try to publicize it."
And none of them spoke about it.

491
00:29:16,547 --> 00:29:19,253
Have you ever spoken
with Professor Frei, as editor . . . ?

492
00:29:19,278 --> 00:29:21,987
No, I don't know him.
I've mostly dealt with Nolte.

493
00:29:22,011 --> 00:29:24,169
— Not about the "Garrison and Commandant Orders"?
— No.

494
00:29:24,194 --> 00:29:25,215
Why not?

495
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,380
It never really occurred to me to.

496
00:29:27,380 --> 00:29:29,495
— Yeah but . . .
— I simply don't know the man.

497
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,148
I've spoken with Walter Post
and Stefan Scheil and Ernst Nolte.

498
00:29:33,173 --> 00:29:37,020
But if you take this as evidence,
as the last piece of the puzzle,

499
00:29:37,020 --> 00:29:42,019
for the non-existence of the Holocaust
might you not have asked why . . .

500
00:29:42,044 --> 00:29:44,315
Why did he do it?
Maybe you should ask him.

501
00:29:44,340 --> 00:29:50,785
. . . why he published it, and whether
his interpretation is the same as yours?

502
00:29:50,810 --> 00:29:53,380
If he has courage
then it will be.

503
00:29:53,404 --> 00:29:58,418
If he doesn't have courage
he'll try to avoid it, like in the Introduction.

504
00:29:58,443 --> 00:29:59,530
That's quite clear.

505
00:29:59,554 --> 00:30:01,229
What does the Introduction say?

506
00:30:01,230 --> 00:30:03,622
In the Introduction they attempt,
desperately

507
00:30:03,647 --> 00:30:07,500
— but it really is quite desperate
and quite obvious that it's false —

508
00:30:07,500 --> 00:30:10,899
to find something somewhere showing
that someone was gassed

509
00:30:10,924 --> 00:30:13,840
— I'm not sure they say "gassed,"
but murdered, anyway.

510
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:15,790
Some big number.

511
00:30:15,790 --> 00:30:19,737
But it doesn't hold water,
what they say in the Introduction.

512
00:30:19,762 --> 00:30:22,024
One can refute it quite quickly.

513
00:30:22,049 --> 00:30:27,779
What do you think: would he acknowledge that,
on the basis of the "Garrison and Commandant Orders,"

514
00:30:27,804 --> 00:30:31,725
one can call into question the Holocaust
in the form it's known in today?

515
00:30:31,750 --> 00:30:35,493
I couldn't say, I don't know him.
I don't know how courageous the man is.

516
00:30:35,518 --> 00:30:36,519
I couldn't say.

517
00:30:36,519 --> 00:30:39,390
But might he not  say that the orders
have to be seen in context,

518
00:30:39,415 --> 00:30:44,575
they relate to individual areas
in the concentration camp,

519
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,834
that there were parts of the camp
that are fairly described

520
00:30:47,859 --> 00:30:51,870
by precisely those aspects which you
have just mentioned, but . . . ?

521
00:30:51,895 --> 00:30:56,466
Yes, but the whole place
was a giant armaments complex,

522
00:30:56,491 --> 00:30:58,507
there were all sorts
of armaments firms there.

523
00:30:58,532 --> 00:31:03,555
There was a film once on television
about a woman who worked there as a secretary.

524
00:31:03,580 --> 00:31:06,370
And naturally she too said,
"I never saw anything of the sort.

525
00:31:06,395 --> 00:31:10,965
I had to manage the list for the bordello
and things like that."

526
00:31:10,990 --> 00:31:14,289
Those who were there always said
something quite different

527
00:31:14,314 --> 00:31:19,908
and now we're trying to reconcile that
with what we've been taught for 50 years in school.

528
00:31:19,933 --> 00:31:22,852
That is our problem,
and naturally it is very hard.

529
00:31:22,877 --> 00:31:25,718
Above all, one must then say,
"My teachers and parents lied to me."

530
00:31:25,742 --> 00:31:28,728
That is bitter.

531
00:31:29,097 --> 00:31:31,448
What does that mean then
for history

532
00:31:31,473 --> 00:31:36,973
if the extermination of the Jews was essentially,
as we learned in school,

533
00:31:36,998 --> 00:31:41,020
a part of the ideology
of National Socialism?

534
00:31:41,020 --> 00:31:44,007
What does that mean for history
if the concentration camps,

535
00:31:44,032 --> 00:31:46,643
and the extermination of the Jews
didn't happen?

536
00:31:46,668 --> 00:31:51,240
Well, I think  there have now been
quite enough investigations of that.

537
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:57,934
It was not a matter of extermination,
it was a matter of removal from Germany.

538
00:31:57,959 --> 00:32:01,070
And that indeed on the basis of the experience
of two world wars.

539
00:32:01,095 --> 00:32:06,319
Hitler knew quite well that,
already in the nineteenth century,

540
00:32:06,344 --> 00:32:08,892
it had been decided to destroy Germany.

541
00:32:08,917 --> 00:32:15,445
And we knew about the declarations of Morgenthau
and Nizer and whatever they were all called.

542
00:32:15,470 --> 00:32:26,166
So that meant, ultimately, that Hitler
wanted Germany freed from this Jewish influence.

543
00:32:26,191 --> 00:32:28,966
But they also said,
"I'll decide who's a Jew."

544
00:32:28,991 --> 00:32:32,141
So if a Jew had converted
to Christianity, or if they . . .

545
00:32:32,166 --> 00:32:35,706
for example, the many popular
and respected pediatricians,

546
00:32:35,731 --> 00:32:38,855
and even in the military —
Erhard Milch was a half-Jew. Right?

547
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:40,897
And yet he remained
in the military.

548
00:32:40,922 --> 00:32:46,295
So "extermination" does not fit,
"resettlement" fits.

549
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,775
But the Zionists themselves
wanted that.

550
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:50,844
And to that extent they even
collaborated on it.

551
00:32:50,858 --> 00:32:53,089
The Zionists wanted to have a state . . .

552
00:32:53,114 --> 00:33:00,377
In 1897 was the big Jewish Congress
where Herzl presented the plan

553
00:33:00,402 --> 00:33:03,473
and on that account
they collaborated on it.

554
00:33:03,498 --> 00:33:05,675
They had the same goal:
one side wanted their own state —

555
00:33:05,700 --> 00:33:09,610
and above all they wanted the German Jews
since they were the cleverest,

556
00:33:09,610 --> 00:33:14,145
the bankers . . . though Herzl said
they didn't want the really rich bankers . . .

557
00:33:14,170 --> 00:33:18,754
but the real technicians, engineers and so on —
"We'll take those!"

558
00:33:18,779 --> 00:33:23,691
And Hitler wanted to be rid of them,
so it all went together quite well.

559
00:33:23,716 --> 00:33:25,532
But that doesn't mean
exterminating them.

560
00:33:25,557 --> 00:33:30,246
If, as you say, the mass extermination
did not happened as claimed

561
00:33:30,271 --> 00:33:33,705
then did these crimes not happen
as well?

562
00:33:33,730 --> 00:33:38,016
Didn't I say that four camp commandants
had to appear before an SS court?

563
00:33:38,041 --> 00:33:41,287
Inevitably there were some crimes,
but that wasn't the goal.

564
00:33:41,312 --> 00:33:45,609
But then that means Hitler was not
the greatest criminal in history.

565
00:33:45,634 --> 00:33:48,402
It should be apparent by now
that that's not right.

566
00:33:48,427 --> 00:33:49,433
Hitler wasn't a criminal?

567
00:33:49,458 --> 00:33:51,053
Now it's Putin
who is the greatest criminal.

568
00:33:51,078 --> 00:33:53,054
But Hitler was not a criminal
back then?

569
00:33:53,079 --> 00:33:58,505
When it comes to pinning such a label
on anyone, I would be VERY cautious.

570
00:33:58,530 --> 00:34:00,996
All right, but if you say
the mass extermination — ?

571
00:34:01,021 --> 00:34:03,526
There is no order for extermination!

572
00:34:03,551 --> 00:34:06,340
But of course Hitler isn't accused
of just that.

573
00:34:06,340 --> 00:34:10,059
He's supposed to have done many other things,
and certainly did do many other things.

574
00:34:10,084 --> 00:34:13,919
But as to calling a person a criminal,
that goes against my nature

575
00:34:13,919 --> 00:34:16,599
because I know that in every person
there is a spark of the divine

576
00:34:16,624 --> 00:34:18,474
and it needs to be addressed
as well.

577
00:34:18,499 --> 00:34:21,559
And if I pin a label on someone and say,
"You are a criminal!"

578
00:34:21,559 --> 00:34:24,900
then the divine in him can only be smothered,
so I would never do that.

579
00:34:24,900 --> 00:34:26,335
I wouldn't say it of any person.

580
00:34:26,848 --> 00:34:30,059
But must the figure of Hitler
be seen in a new light as a result?

581
00:34:30,059 --> 00:34:32,749
Well, more than anything,
I can say something to that.

582
00:34:32,749 --> 00:34:38,245
The view of Hitler that we currently have
is already in complete contradiction

583
00:34:38,270 --> 00:34:44,118
with the view that historians like Joachim Fest
or Werner Maser and so on

584
00:34:44,143 --> 00:34:49,432
presented in their big biographies
back in the seventies or sixties — sixties.

585
00:34:49,433 --> 00:34:50,597
Fest says,

586
00:34:50,622 --> 00:34:56,484
"Hitler was, for ten years,
the center of movement for the world."

587
00:34:56,509 --> 00:34:58,723
That's not exactly negative.

588
00:34:58,748 --> 00:35:02,799
And if you read Lloyd George
and the English writers

589
00:35:02,824 --> 00:35:05,800
who came to Germany,
in some cases in secret,

590
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,989
in order to determine what was really
happening here in the 1930s . . .

591
00:35:09,989 --> 00:35:14,099
they spoke in astonishingly positive terms
about Hitler.

592
00:35:14,124 --> 00:35:17,449
And they published it too:
Hans Grimm, for example.

593
00:35:17,449 --> 00:35:22,798
And just as he is presented today,
the further one gets away from that time

594
00:35:22,823 --> 00:35:25,824
the more negative everything becomes
for the Germans.

595
00:35:25,849 --> 00:35:26,998
And do you know why?

596
00:35:27,023 --> 00:35:30,857
Because they're afraid
that a change may come again

597
00:35:30,882 --> 00:35:34,969
and that the lies will be exposed.
That's the only reason.

598
00:35:34,969 --> 00:35:38,733
Why are they even now
pulling Anne Frank from the drawer,

599
00:35:38,758 --> 00:35:44,024
even though it's now been proven
in every possible case to be a fake?

600
00:35:44,049 --> 00:35:45,922
So you say Hitler was not a criminal?

601
00:35:45,947 --> 00:35:52,649
I just told you, I would not say of anyone,
"He is a criminal."

602
00:35:52,649 --> 00:35:56,239
A man has the most various
possibilities to develop personally.

603
00:35:56,264 --> 00:36:00,501
And when I read the statements
from that time

604
00:36:00,526 --> 00:36:05,843
then its clear he was of great significance
for world history.

605
00:36:05,868 --> 00:36:09,376
And that brings me to the fourth level
of historical understanding:

606
00:36:09,401 --> 00:36:11,218
Why do such men appear
in history?

607
00:36:11,243 --> 00:36:16,964
Hitler always spoke of Providence
to which he felt responsible, as it were.

608
00:36:16,989 --> 00:36:20,709
And he felt himself to be called
to his task.

609
00:36:20,709 --> 00:36:23,662
And one could never call that criminal.

610
00:36:23,687 --> 00:36:29,324
Didn't you learn anything else in school
about bad things Hitler did — just the Jews?

611
00:36:29,349 --> 00:36:31,129
Well, yeah, that he killed
a lot of other people.

612
00:36:31,129 --> 00:36:33,280
One hears, one learns.

613
00:36:33,305 --> 00:36:38,815
And that he was more or less responsible
for the greatest —

614
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:43,610
That he started the war.
Yes, they teach that to children too.

615
00:36:43,635 --> 00:36:44,670
But that isn't so?

616
00:36:44,670 --> 00:36:46,319
No, of course not.

617
00:36:46,319 --> 00:36:48,006
But really that is rather obvious.

618
00:36:48,031 --> 00:36:52,865
We won't have to wait so long as we did
for Clark and his "Sleepwalkers"

619
00:36:52,890 --> 00:36:56,130
to prove that the Germans are not repsonsible
for the First World War.

620
00:36:56,155 --> 00:37:00,034
They will discover even sooner
that they're not responsible for the Second either.

621
00:37:00,059 --> 00:37:02,419
That won't take nearly so long.

622
00:37:02,419 --> 00:37:07,905
Many people already —
Even, what's his name?  Haffner.

623
00:37:07,930 --> 00:37:12,389
The Second World War, he said,
began at Versailles.

624
00:37:12,389 --> 00:37:15,721
Versailles is the cause of WW II then,
not Hitler.

625
00:37:15,746 --> 00:37:17,826
In every person there are changes.

626
00:37:17,851 --> 00:37:23,504
Hitler did many positive things,
which many significant people recognized

627
00:37:23,529 --> 00:37:26,759
— read the biographies by Fest and Maser —

628
00:37:26,759 --> 00:37:31,064
and a great many things are foisted on him
that he did not do.

629
00:37:31,089 --> 00:37:33,621
— But he was a man . . .
— For example the Holocaust.

630
00:37:33,646 --> 00:37:37,024
Yes.  A man with his highs and lows
and so on.

631
00:37:37,049 --> 00:37:39,744
And my husband always said

632
00:37:39,768 --> 00:37:47,364
— he'd met Hitler in person, and he was always
being urged, "Write a book about Hitler!" —

633
00:37:47,389 --> 00:37:48,591
and he always said,

634
00:37:48,616 --> 00:37:52,122
"That's such a complex personality
and there's so much — "

635
00:37:52,147 --> 00:37:58,469
the most in all literature, the person
about whom there are the most biographies, etc. —

636
00:37:58,469 --> 00:38:00,789
"I must first read all that . . .

637
00:38:00,789 --> 00:38:04,389
I leave that to future generations
in a hundred years.

638
00:38:04,389 --> 00:38:07,011
For now, we will always only be able
to say something false."

639
00:38:07,036 --> 00:38:09,070
And I would say the same.

640
00:38:09,095 --> 00:38:12,473
When you call the Holocaust into question
seventy years afterwards,

641
00:38:12,498 --> 00:38:19,604
is that not a slap in the face to the relatives
of victims, and above all to survivors?

642
00:38:19,629 --> 00:38:23,790
I find the real slap in people's faces
are those individuals

643
00:38:23,815 --> 00:38:27,803
who have written books
— which are flogged in our schools —

644
00:38:27,828 --> 00:38:31,680
and told about their sufferings
in a concentration camp

645
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,342
without ever having been in one.

646
00:38:34,367 --> 00:38:37,512
And it seems that even goes
for Elie Wiesel,

647
00:38:37,536 --> 00:38:40,594
who's still working on
touching up his autobiography.

648
00:38:40,619 --> 00:38:43,202
— But were you ever in a concentration camp?
— I'm sorry?

649
00:38:43,227 --> 00:38:45,374
— Were you ever in a concentration camp?
— Of course not.  No.

650
00:38:45,398 --> 00:38:47,181
I was still too young.
I was seventeen.

651
00:38:47,206 --> 00:38:50,628
— But then you say, of course . . .
— No, look for a moment.

652
00:38:50,653 --> 00:38:53,631
. . . the concentration camps, in the generally
recognized form, did not exist.

653
00:38:53,656 --> 00:38:57,574
I say that the concentration camps existed
and that terrible things happened.

654
00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:01,203
In any case, it's always something
about Auschwitz, it is the symbol.

655
00:39:01,228 --> 00:39:02,833
But it was a work camp . . .

656
00:39:02,858 --> 00:39:06,954
It was a work camp
and the Commandant Orders confirm that.

657
00:39:06,979 --> 00:39:10,429
And there weren't
six million people killed;

658
00:39:10,429 --> 00:39:13,550
the reduction on the memorial tablets
at Auschwitz confirms that.

659
00:39:13,550 --> 00:39:21,924
And above all that is confirmed by my own
unsuccessful efforts to get to the bottom of it.

660
00:39:21,949 --> 00:39:24,699
Really, I asked everyone.

661
00:39:24,699 --> 00:39:29,134
Not a single one of them could tell me
where the six million were killed.

662
00:39:29,159 --> 00:39:32,929
And in that case, one must show
a little courage and say that it's a lie.

663
00:39:32,929 --> 00:39:37,074
Or one must indeed say THERE and THERE.
One or the other.

664
00:39:37,099 --> 00:39:42,094
But that is a task for others, not me;
I can only point out what the questions are.

665
00:39:42,119 --> 00:39:46,598
At the same time, it just so happens
it will soon be 70th anniversary of the war . . .

666
00:39:46,623 --> 00:39:47,966
It's going to be talked about everywhere.

667
00:39:47,991 --> 00:39:54,484
. . . and naturally it's a big topic,
and there are many survivors

668
00:39:54,509 --> 00:39:57,898
who have made it their task
to remember the Holocaust,

669
00:39:57,923 --> 00:40:01,960
to say, as it were,
"Don't forget the evil that happened here."

670
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,825
But when you say that the Holocaust,
in its recognized form, did not in fact occur,

671
00:40:05,850 --> 00:40:07,889
is that not a slap in the face
for these people?

672
00:40:07,889 --> 00:40:12,616
No.  The slap in the face is this:
it is seventy years

673
00:40:12,641 --> 00:40:16,714
not only since the end of the war,
not only since the liberation of Auschwitz,

674
00:40:16,739 --> 00:40:22,374
but also since the expulsion of 15 million Germans
from their ancestral homeland

675
00:40:22,399 --> 00:40:28,714
with the murder — proven murder —
of 2.5 million of them, and probably many more.

676
00:40:28,739 --> 00:40:31,278
That is never mentioned,
not a word.

677
00:40:31,303 --> 00:40:34,230
That is something I might actually call
a slap in the face.

678
00:40:34,255 --> 00:40:37,779
I might ask the question, Why not this?
Why only that?

679
00:40:37,779 --> 00:40:41,692
These pictures of piles of bodies
in Auschwitz and in Bergen-Belsen . . .

680
00:40:41,717 --> 00:40:46,290
In Auschwitz there couldn't have been any
since the prisoners were evacuated, the majority,

681
00:40:46,290 --> 00:40:47,947
and the rest they left behind
to be liberated.

682
00:40:47,972 --> 00:40:50,475
And when you see pictures of them
they look quite normal.

683
00:40:50,500 --> 00:40:52,763
But then where do they come from,
these pictures?

684
00:40:52,788 --> 00:40:56,445
Don't you know about the piles of bodies
in our ruined cities?

685
00:40:56,470 --> 00:40:59,208
From Hamburg, from Pforzheim
from Hildesheim, from Dresden . . .

686
00:40:59,232 --> 00:41:00,505
And they were brought
into the camps?

687
00:41:00,530 --> 00:41:05,046
No need to bring them in.  One makes the piles
of bodies, takes some pictures, and . . .

688
00:41:05,071 --> 00:41:09,934
They can piece it together with pictures,
there's no great art to it.

689
00:41:09,959 --> 00:41:14,799
One young man managed to be everywhere.
In Dresden, and there and there.

690
00:41:14,799 --> 00:41:17,909
It was always the same young man.

691
00:41:17,909 --> 00:41:20,606
We know all that,
you just have to read!

692
00:41:20,631 --> 00:41:25,537
The piles of bodies at Bergen-Belsen
certainly were real, but why did they occur?

693
00:41:26,339 --> 00:41:29,581
They have nothing to do with the camp system,
or rather they do, but only in the sense

694
00:41:29,606 --> 00:41:33,782
that all access routes
had been destroyed by bombing

695
00:41:33,806 --> 00:41:37,765
and that they thus could no longer get
any food or medicine.

696
00:41:37,790 --> 00:41:43,084
The director of the camp went in desperation
to the local farmers

697
00:41:43,109 --> 00:41:45,764
but they all had hardly anything
to eat themselves.

698
00:41:45,789 --> 00:41:48,689
After all, this was 1945,
in May.

699
00:41:48,689 --> 00:41:54,934
And then the English came and made
huge quantities of sardines available to them.

700
00:41:54,959 --> 00:42:01,664
I know that because a good friend of ours
had a brother-in-law who was there and told us.

701
00:42:01,689 --> 00:42:08,825
And the starving prisoners couldn't tolerate
such food, and they all got dysentery and so on.

702
00:42:08,850 --> 00:42:13,264
And when someone lay down to die, there they lay,
since no one was left to bury them.

703
00:42:13,289 --> 00:42:17,695
But one can't call that something
of the Germans' doing.

704
00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:20,294
That has nothing to do with it.

705
00:42:20,319 --> 00:42:24,964
You know, this kind of mendacity,
we never could have imagined it, me included.

706
00:42:24,989 --> 00:42:29,659
It is enormously difficult for me to imagine
that anyone could ever lie

707
00:42:29,659 --> 00:42:31,309
the way they've lied to  us.

708
00:42:31,309 --> 00:42:33,573
But they have lied to us like that.
And when one thinks today —

709
00:42:33,598 --> 00:42:37,475
You mean that the completely emaciated people,
the pictures of emaciated people . . .

710
00:42:37,499 --> 00:42:38,500
There are other reasons!

711
00:42:38,525 --> 00:42:42,686
. . . the piles of bodies in Dachau,
in Buchenwald, in Theresienstadt, in Auschwitz,

712
00:42:42,711 --> 00:42:45,054
where did they come from?

713
00:42:45,079 --> 00:42:46,669
I just told you where they come from.

714
00:42:46,694 --> 00:42:51,339
Besides, at the end of the war we were all starved;
my mother weighed only ninety pounds!

715
00:42:51,339 --> 00:42:53,217
We were all emaciated.

716
00:42:53,241 --> 00:42:55,081
— You mean to say the . . .
— And the bombs!

717
00:42:55,106 --> 00:42:58,789
. . . the terrible condition of these poor people
was not the result, as it were,

718
00:42:58,814 --> 00:43:02,460
of what the Germans
had established in the camps?

719
00:43:02,485 --> 00:43:05,692
They were not the result,
or at any rate not the goal.

720
00:43:05,717 --> 00:43:08,739
But they were the result of the war.

721
00:43:08,739 --> 00:43:14,580
Think about it: when you no longer have
the least scrap of transport infrastructure,

722
00:43:14,605 --> 00:43:18,171
when everything is broken . . .
the bridges were broken,

723
00:43:18,196 --> 00:43:23,633
you couldn't drive at all, you could still
get about by bicycle, but otherwise . . .

724
00:43:23,658 --> 00:43:27,184
then the prisoners could no longer
be supplied.  Of course not.

725
00:43:27,209 --> 00:43:31,106
But all the same, you must admit
that is still the result

726
00:43:31,131 --> 00:43:33,109
of how the Germans acted
toward them in the camps.

727
00:43:33,134 --> 00:43:38,187
No.  It is a result of how
the enemies of Germany acted

728
00:43:38,212 --> 00:43:40,829
by completely bombing Germany
to pieces.

729
00:43:40,829 --> 00:43:43,163
People today cannot imagine it.

730
00:43:43,223 --> 00:43:47,421
Do you believe that you could convince
the majority of Germans

731
00:43:47,446 --> 00:43:52,294
that the Holocaust, in its recognized form,
did not occur, that it never happened?

732
00:43:52,319 --> 00:43:55,834
Even now, I already have the impression
that the majority of thinking Germans

733
00:43:55,859 --> 00:44:01,044
have experienced so many contradictions
that they, at the very least, doubt it strongly.

734
00:44:01,069 --> 00:44:04,545
And perhaps even more so,
a great many tradespeople and the like,

735
00:44:04,570 --> 00:44:07,524
precisely because they're people
with their feet on the ground,

736
00:44:07,549 --> 00:44:11,379
also say, "That simply can't be right."

737
00:44:11,379 --> 00:44:13,676
I take their word.

738
00:44:13,700 --> 00:44:14,998
What can't be right?

739
00:44:14,999 --> 00:44:21,744
The gas chambers and so on, all those technical things
that tradespeople understand better than we do.

740
00:44:21,769 --> 00:44:23,577
And they say
that simply can't be right.

741
00:44:23,602 --> 00:44:26,338
And then, in the war — we old folks
all lived through the war

742
00:44:26,363 --> 00:44:28,442
and we know what short supply
everything was in —

743
00:44:28,467 --> 00:44:34,194
and when you think how many men would have been
needed to run it all, it makes no sense.

744
00:44:34,219 --> 00:44:39,504
So that's that, but as to whether
everyone will come around . . .

745
00:44:39,529 --> 00:44:43,824
I'm afraid so.  And it will be very
uncomfortable for people.

746
00:44:43,849 --> 00:44:45,842
Why, in your opinion,
is it important

747
00:44:45,867 --> 00:44:53,314
to pass down to the next generation
doubt about the historicity of the Holocaust?

748
00:44:53,339 --> 00:44:56,422
Because otherwise they'll suffer under it
uselessly for all eternity.

749
00:44:56,447 --> 00:44:58,649
And they do,
they're told they have to.

750
00:44:58,649 --> 00:45:04,860
This guilt complex is so deeply rooted —
and above all then there are the demands too:

751
00:45:04,885 --> 00:45:08,754
give more submarines, give more this,
do more that, and so on.

752
00:45:08,779 --> 00:45:12,622
All of that is founded upon
"we and our past . . ."

753
00:45:12,647 --> 00:45:15,019
No doubt you've heard that yourself
many times.

754
00:45:15,019 --> 00:45:18,994
And above all the worst of it is,
the Jews themselves don't want it.

755
00:45:19,019 --> 00:45:22,099
They make it a reproach to us now
that we do as much.

756
00:45:22,099 --> 00:45:28,164
Read the open letter by . . .
What was his name now? — Meir Margalit,

757
00:45:28,189 --> 00:45:33,115
written after Chancellor Merkel's visit to Israel
and her speech to the Knesset, which he himself heard.

758
00:45:33,140 --> 00:45:37,009
At that rate we have to
despair of ourselves all the more.

759
00:45:37,009 --> 00:45:41,229
They make it a reproach to us now
that we do that.

760
00:45:41,229 --> 00:45:42,392
We must, and —

761
00:45:42,417 --> 00:45:45,671
No, I can't imagine that thinking people
will go along with that for much longer.

762
00:45:45,696 --> 00:45:49,658
What events do you organize
in order to spread this idea . . .

763
00:45:49,683 --> 00:45:50,578
I don't organize anything.

764
00:45:50,603 --> 00:45:53,352
. . . where do you appear, how do try
to pass this on to young people?

765
00:45:53,377 --> 00:45:55,143
I don't do anything at all
from my side.

766
00:45:55,167 --> 00:45:58,243
I get asked questions, on every
possible subject, not just that.

767
00:45:58,268 --> 00:46:00,327
And who comes then,
what sort of people are they?

768
00:46:00,352 --> 00:46:04,227
All sorts of people, old and young mixed,
but lots of young people.

769
00:46:04,252 --> 00:46:08,509
The young, however, mostly want to hear about
what you asked about earlier, the Third Reich.

770
00:46:08,509 --> 00:46:10,459
That interests them the most.

771
00:46:10,459 --> 00:46:14,395
Are they for the most part
National Party members then, or . . .

772
00:46:14,420 --> 00:46:19,135
I don't think so.  No, no, I wouldn't say that.
The NPD is not highly regarded by the young.

773
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:20,899
Or I have that impression,
anyway.

774
00:46:20,899 --> 00:46:23,863
Though perhaps the fault for that lies . . .
well, I can't generalize.

775
00:46:23,888 --> 00:46:27,250
But in any case, with regard to
the young people who invite me to speak

776
00:46:27,275 --> 00:46:31,894
I would say, no.  They're mainly not NPD.
They're quite critical of it.

777
00:46:31,919 --> 00:46:34,616
But they do want to be German!
That's what it is.

778
00:46:34,641 --> 00:46:37,439
And even just to be German
today is "fascist."

779
00:46:37,439 --> 00:46:39,658
That is the problem.

780
00:46:40,433 --> 00:46:42,109
It probably has to be —

781
00:46:42,109 --> 00:46:44,679
thought I haven't yet finished sorting out
what I think about this . . .

782
00:46:44,679 --> 00:46:51,524
Why did these events — why did this conflict,
Jews and Germans, become so stark,

783
00:46:51,549 --> 00:46:54,959
and why this hate of the Jews,
why did it have to happen?

784
00:46:54,984 --> 00:46:56,759
It's still completely unclear to me.

785
00:46:56,759 --> 00:46:58,508
But perhaps I'll manage someday.

786
00:46:58,533 --> 00:47:00,669
— The hate of the Jews for the Germans?
— Yes.

787
00:47:00,669 --> 00:47:03,103
I have never read,
from any other people,

788
00:47:03,127 --> 00:47:08,059
such hate-filled expressions
about another people as from the Jews.

789
00:47:08,084 --> 00:47:11,153
— Why . . .
— More than the hate of the Germans toward Jews?

790
00:47:11,178 --> 00:47:15,985
That's much later, the hate of the Germans.
The Jews were much earlier.

791
00:47:16,010 --> 00:47:20,803
And it's . . . all you have to do
is read the Talmud.

792
00:47:20,828 --> 00:47:27,369
I have all twelve volumes there in the authorized,
most recent translation and edition, 2002.

793
00:47:27,369 --> 00:47:29,869
I bought them with Horst Mahler

794
00:47:29,869 --> 00:47:34,918
because we wanted to verify the commonly
circulated statements from the Talmud.

795
00:47:34,943 --> 00:47:39,244
Are they accurate?
(Especially compared with an authorized edition.)

796
00:47:39,269 --> 00:47:42,910
And I couldn't read more than three pages,
it made me feel ill.

797
00:47:42,910 --> 00:47:46,897
That's how revolting it is, all the stuff
in it about sexuality and so on,

798
00:47:46,922 --> 00:47:50,064
about how you can do it with
a three-year-old child, and and and . . .

799
00:47:50,089 --> 00:47:52,609
You know, it's all just so alien to us.

800
00:47:52,609 --> 00:47:54,354
I don't even want to think about it.

801
00:47:54,393 --> 00:47:59,614
As a last question I'd like to ask you,
since you just mentioned Horst Mahler . . .

802
00:47:59,639 --> 00:48:03,137
The things that you say
and that you believe

803
00:48:03,162 --> 00:48:09,529
— namely, that the Holocaust in particular
did not happen, as you say —

804
00:48:09,529 --> 00:48:12,069
saying this, naturally, could land you in prison.

805
00:48:12,069 --> 00:48:18,436
Well then, that's just a risk I have to take
if people think that's best.  That's their opinion.

806
00:48:18,461 --> 00:48:24,755
That's, that's . . . look, I'm old.
I've had a long life, a good life, as I've told you.

807
00:48:24,780 --> 00:48:27,347
That's just the price that one must pay.

808
00:48:27,372 --> 00:48:30,449
I always think of Schiller,
"Wallenstein's Camp":

809
00:48:30,449 --> 00:48:32,570
"Rise up, my comrades, to horse! to horse!"

810
00:48:32,595 --> 00:48:33,416
And it ends,

811
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:37,874
"And if you will not stake your lives,
You'll never win life as your prize."

812
00:48:37,899 --> 00:48:39,499
Very simple.

813
00:48:39,499 --> 00:48:42,090
That's what your motto must be.
And you must also be prepared —

814
00:48:42,090 --> 00:48:44,799
And Nehru, by the way, said that
to the Kurds too:

815
00:48:44,799 --> 00:48:51,431
if a people is ready to pay the price for freedom,
then no one can make them unfree.

816
00:48:51,456 --> 00:48:54,851
It just depends on the price
one is ready to pay.

817
00:48:56,023 --> 00:48:59,984
(Subtitles by Kladderadatsch.
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