Why didn't they just use nitrogen at Auschwitz?

[Kingfisher]

In One Third of the Holocaust, Denierbud several times uses the argument that the alleged killing or disposal method is inefficient and that "The Germans wouldn't have done it that way."

I am surprised we have not seen this argument applied also to Auschwitz. If you go to the trouble of building airtight chambers in which to kill people, why would you bother with the complication, danger and expense of using a slow-release cyanide compound, especially an unsuitable one optimised for a different use. You could simply wait for the people to suffocate.

Of course, this procedure is slow, but it has been shown that the Zyklon-B process would also have been slow, because the cyanide gas is released slowly, and must be fully exhausted and evacuated before the disposal teams could enter. Zyklon-B is also dangerous to the personnel inserting it, and to the surrounding area when vented. Suffocation does not have this particular disadvantage.

As well as being slow, suffocation is also painful and distressing, and while this need not have concerned the executioners in itself, the prolonged screaming might disturb their card games. There is however a method which is simple, cheap, quick, humane, safe to all except the victims and leaves no forensic traces in the bodies: asphyxiation with nitrogen. The air is almost 80% nitrogen, so industrial nitrogen is readily and cheaply available in cylinders, or a nitrogen generator can create it on demand. It can safely be vented to the surrounding air, and provided sufficient fresh air has entered the chamber, disposal staff can safely enter at an early stage.

Wikipedia has this to say on nitrogen asphyxiation:

Nitrogen asphyxiation is an occasional cause of accidental death and a theoretical method of capital punishment advocated in a National Review article, "Killing with kindness – capital punishment by nitrogen asphyxiation" (Creque 1995). The painful experience of suffocation is not caused by lack of oxygen, but rather because of a buildup of carbon dioxide in the bloodstream which is exhaled under normal circumstances.

When a human breathes in pure nitrogen, they exhale carbon dioxide without resupplying oxygen. Nitrogen is a colorless, odorless and tasteless gas that comprises approximately 78 percent of the Earth's atmosphere. As such, the subject would detect no abnormal sensation. This leads to asphyxiation without the painful and traumatic feeling of suffocation. Because of this property, nitrogen in German is called "Stickstoff" ("suffocation matter").

You can read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_asphyxiation

Until I began researching this post I was unaware of the German for nitrogen, but this seems an additional reason why the Germans would not have been unaware of this option.

In the Panorama programme referred to in the Wikipedia article, John Portillo experiments with inhaling nitrogen from a mask. He is laughing, and enjoying the experience so much that the mask has to be taken away from him, rather than him removing it voluntarily.

I invite comments both on the validity of what I have written and on whether and how it might be exploited.

[Barncat]

The introduction of ideas about ways of killing that are more effective than those
fabricated by the Hoaxters is something of a theme for us, isn't it? Obviously, the
Jews who invented this fiasco did not think things through carefully.

It takes little imagination to come up with virtually infinite methods of mass murder
that would have been cheaper and more effective than the fabricated fantasy techniques
that have been proposed.

What about drowning chambers? Cheap and quick. What about dropping chambers from
a height of fifty feet? Messy, but with plenty of Jews to clean up, why would the Satanic
Nazis care?

The point is not to invent cruel fantasies, but to point out the flawed thinking behind
the hoax. Well done, Kingfisher.

[ps]

Automatic translation.

Suffocation would have been one of the most efficient methods. Even compared to CO from wood gas generators provides this simple procedure very well. Although the CO procedure would have been a total of a little faster, but still would have meant something more technical work. After all, one would need the generator and a ventilation system.

In the simple suffocation methods you would not even against "gas-tight" doors and requires no extra ventilation. In the case of "cremation" II and III, it would have been sufficient and the alleged skylights and open the door. Alone by this simple measure would be the "gas chamber" with about 5000m ³ / h were ventilated. As the fresh air would be has flown through the gas chamber door to the gas chamber, the entrance could be accessed almost immediately without risk. At least you would have to wait no longer than 1 minute with the door open. One would have to remove the bodies from the entrance can begin immediately and during the work would be the air in the gas chamber has become much more faster than you could pull out the corpses.

Death occurs either by CO2 poisoning or through an O2 deficiency or a combination of both by fatal effects. Moreover, even the gas chamber climate plays with his 100% humidity provides also a catalytic role.

Just because ever witnessed was that the occupancy densities have been very high due to the cruel SS should have the Erstickungsverfahren works extremely well. And it would be without all preparations have been practically applicable everywhere.

But it was by the Jews just the use of "Zyklon B" and witnessed other toxic gases. As alleged in either the time of the killing did not work or had shown much longer cycle times, is itself contradicted by the allegation of the use of poison gas, the Holocaust is already perfect disproved.

Invoice and conditions:

An oxygen content of less than 6% is fatal. In the air we normally have 21% oxygen. Therefore can be utilized to the maximum 15% oxygen.
1 ltr = O2 at 1 bar and 0°C can deliver up to 21 000 J energy of life. At 30 ° C then 21 000 * 273/303 = 18 921 J / ltr.
With a ceiling height of 2,4 m and 10 persons per square meter, each with 60 kg stand still (2.4 m³ / m² -10 persons / m * 0.06 m³ / person) / 10 persons = 0.18 m³ air per person. Of these, 15% O2 are available and each liter of which delivers 18 921 J energy of life. They are then 0,18m³ * 0,15 * 18921 J/ltr * 1000 ltr/m³ = 510870 J for a person.


A person required under these circumstances, panic probably 150 J / s. Then a person can survive yet 510 870 J / 150 J / s = 3405 s. They are then 57 minutes, until the oxygen is used up. Provided here is only that all the available air can be breathed. But this is not even given. Furthermore, it was not included in this calculation that is used during the gas chamber filling oxygen. If we take the gas chamber with 210 m² floor space, and assume that every 1,5 seconds a person's front door, takes the gas chamber filling 210m ² * 10 P / m * 1.5 s / P = 3150 s.

On average, the gas chamber during the filling time with 5 P / m² or occupied during the half-filling time with 10 people. This means that by closing the door already 3150 / 2 = 1575 s "was used" means. This results in a survival time from door end result of 3405s - 1575s = 1830 s = 30,5 minutes.

This was only a consideration of the oxygen!

But there is also the possibility to reflect on the effect of CO2 poisoning thought that with decreasing oxygen content at the same time more and more choking throats and eventually lead to death is faster than the oxygen deficiency. After all, we would conclude at the door in this example has a CO2 content of about 3,3% and would increase to 15% by O2 deficiency caused death. The calculation I bring here not because it is not quite so simple.


Auf Deutsch:

Erstickenlassen wäre eine der effizientesten Methoden gewesen. Selbst im Vergleich zu CO aus Holzvergasergeneratoren sieht dieses einfache Verfahren sehr gut aus. Zwar wäre das CO-Verfahren insgesamt noch etwas schneller gewesen, hätte aber eben doch etwas mehr technischen Aufwand bedeutet. Immerhin hätte man den Generator und auch eine Lüftungsanlage benötigt.

Beim einfachen Erstickungsverfahren hätte man dagegen nicht einmal "gasdichte" Türen benötigt und auch keine extra Ventilation. Im Falle der "Krematorien" II und III hätte es ausgereicht, die behaupteten Dachluken und und die Tür zu öffnen. Alleine durch diese einfache Maßnahme wäre die "Gaskammer" mit rund 5000m³/h belüftet worden. Da die Frischluft durch die Gaskammertür in die Gaskammer eingeströmt wäre, hätte der Eingangsbereich praktisch sofort gefährlos betreten werden können. Zumindest hätte man nicht länger als 1 Minute bei geöffneter Tür warten müssen. Man hätte mit dem Entfernen der Leichen aus dem Eingangsbereich sofort beginnen können und während der Arbeit wäre die Luft in der Gaskammer viel schneller besser geworden, als man die Leichen heraustransportieren hätte können.

Der Tod tritt entweder durch CO2 Vergiftung ein oder durch O2 Mangel oder auch durch Kombination beider tödlichen Effekte ein. Außerdem spielt auch das Gaskammerklima mit seiner 100% Luftfeuchtigkeit bestimmt auch noch eine beschleunigende Rolle.

Gerade weil immer bezeugt wurde, daß die Belegungsdichten aufgrund der grausamen SS sehr hoch gewesen sein sollen, hätte das Erstickungsverfahren ausgezeichnet funktioniert. Und es wäre ohne jegliche Vorbereitung praktisch überall anwendbar gewesen.

Aber es wurden von den Juden eben der Einsatz von "Zyklon B" und anderen Giftgasen bezeugt. Da die entweder in der behaupteten Tötungszeit nicht funktioniert hätten oder weitaus längere Zykluszeiten ergeben hätten, wird alleine durch die Behauptung des Einsatzes von Giftgas der Holocaust bereits vollkommen widerlegt.

Rechnung und Voraussetzungen:

Ein Sauerstoffgehalt von unter 6 % ist tödlich. In der Luft haben wir normalerweise 21% Sauerstoff. Demnach können 15 % Sauerstoffgehalt maximal genutzt werden.
1 ltr =O2 bei 1 bar und 273 K kann maximal 21000 J Lebensenergie liefern. Bei 30°C dann noch 21000 * 273/303 = 18921 J/ltr.
Bei einer Deckenhöhe von 2,4 m und 10 Personen je Quadratmeter mit jeweils 60 kg stehen noch (2,4m³/m² -10 Personen/m² * 0,06m³/Person)/10 Personen = 0,18m³ Luft je Person zur Verfügung. Davon sind 15% O2 nutzbar und jeder Liter davon liefert 18921 J Lebensenergie. Das sind dann 0,18m³ * 0,15 * 18921 J/ltr * 1000 ltr/m³ = 510870 J.

Eine Person benötigt unter diesen Panikumständen wohl 150 J/s. Dann kann eine Person noch 510870 J / 150 J/s = 3405 s überleben. Das sind dann 57 Minuten, bis der Sauerstoff aufgebraucht ist. Vorausgesetzt wird dabei nur, daß auch alle zur Verfügung stehende Luft veratmet werden kann. Dies ist aber nicht einmal gegeben. Desweiteren wurde bei dieser Rechnung nicht berücksichtigt, daß bereits während der Gaskammerbefüllung Sauerstoff verbraucht wird. Nehmen wir die Gaskammer mit 210 m² Grundfläche und nehmen an, daß alle 1,5 Sekunden eine Person die Eingangstür passiert, dauert die Gaskammerfüllung 210m² * 10 P/m² * 1,5s/P = 3150 s.

Im Mittel ist die Gaskammer während der Befüllungszeit mit 5 P/m² belegt oder aber während der halben Befüllungszeit mit 10 Personen. Das bedeutet, daß bis zum Schließen der Tür bereits 3150 / 2 = 1575 s "verbraucht" worden sind. Damit ergibt sich eine Überlebenszeit ab Türschluß von 3405s - 1575s = 1830 s = 30,5 Minuten.

Dies war nur eine Betrachtung zum Sauerstoffgehalt!

Es gibt aber auch noch die Möglichkeit, sich über die Wirkung der CO2-Vergiftung Gedanken zu machen, welche mit sinkendem Sauerstoffgehalt gleichzeitig die Kehlen immer mehr zuschnürt und letztendlich schneller zum Tod führen wird als der Sauerstoffmangel. Immerhin hätten wir bei Türschluß in diesem Beispiel schon einen CO2 Gehalt von etwa 3,3% und der würde auf 15% bis zum O2-Mangel bedingten Tod ansteigen. Die Rechnung bringe ich hier aber nicht, da sie nicht ganz so einfach ist.

[Kingfisher]

Barncat,
You seem to have completely missed the point, which is the same as denierbud's with, for example, the diesel engine. He points out how absurd it would be when they had readily-available sources of producer gas. This makes the diesel accusation look silly and unbelievable.

Others have pointed out before me that you don't need poison gas with airtight chambers because people can simply be suffocated, but if you leave the air in the chamber that takes some time. You can make the same point more effectively by alluding to the cheap, fast and efficient suffocation-with-nitrogen option. If they really were going to kill people in airtight chambers, it should have been an obvious candidate rather than messing around with something dangerous and inefficient.

This suggests that the Zyklon story is a convenient invention using a substance that had a valid reason to be there. It attacks the credibility of the conventional narrative. Properly presented it could cause some people to question that narrative.

[Carto's Cutlass Supreme]

But what would be better between nitrogen and CO as made by a wood gas generator? How hard is it to remove the oxygen from the air to have nitrogen? Maybe that requires a process that takes a lot of energy. There's a lot of air to displace so I can't really imagine tanks of nitrogen being used, and then shipped somewhere for refill at high pressure.

Nitrogen would require a lot of volume, whereas a much smaller volume of CO just enters into the larger volume of air in the room with the effect of bonding to oxygen receptors in the body more strongly than oxygen.

Asphyxiation by simply locking the doors to an airtight chamber has never been a strong argument to me. It rests on part of the hoax that people were always jam-packed in. That would then have to be a prerequisite to make it work. What if an incoming train had less people? Then you couldn't do a gassing? Even Pressac states that the numbers in the chamber varied. Not to mention that everyone has been in a group of people in a small room with no ventilation, doing quite well for 1/2 hour with no one even complaining.

The biggest problem with Zyklon B, is that they allegedly dropped it onto the (cold) floor, rather than dropping it into a receptacle in front of a hot air blower.

[Kingfisher]

CCS,

Interesting reply, particularly the volumes involved, which I hadn't given enough thought to. Wouldn't the chemical works at Auschwitz have plenty of available nitrogen? Bottled nitrogen is very cheap. Otherwise a generator.

But I admit I'm just playing with an idea here. The serious part is debunking the Zyklon-B, on the general lines that if they were running a serious mass extermination operation, they wouldn't just use something that was conveniently lying around and wouldn't do the job very well. They'd have approached it scientifically. I was just considering what one of those alternatives might have been.

[Carto's Cutlass Supreme]

Hi Kingfisher,

I agree with you.

One thing to consider though, is that if you put nitrogen in a room and have a vent on the other end of the room, you will need to put a lot more cubic feet of nitrogen into the room, than what the room holds. This is because the nitrogen enters, mixes with the air in the room, and then the vent lets out part of that pure nitrogen, with the proportion becoming greater and greater, and it becoming harder and harder to get rid of the last bit of oxygen, not that getting rid of 100 percent of the oxygen would be required.

In contrast CO or HCN messes up the air already in the room, with HCN doing that to a much greater extent with parts per million, and CO working somewhat on the displacement concept.

[The Warden]

Any method used to "whack" jews all day and night is moot. Truth is, they could've shot every jew in the back of the head where they found them, and no one was going to do a thing about it. What was going to happen? A war? It was already happening. This just shows how ridiculous the idea of mass execution (by any means) was the intent of the Germans. They obviously wanted them removed, and they went through the trouble of setting up an entire infrastructure to do the job. They didn't even need to round them up into camps if the intention was death. They could've herded them like cattle into one corner of the city and bombed the ever-loving s@#t out of it.

World War II was Hollywood before there was one, with jews in the background making up stories as they went.

[Kingfisher]

CCS, You've convinced me. The nitrogen looks like a non-starter, but the idea that if it was for real it would have been scientifically planned, rather than using anything lying around, is the main point.

The Warden,

So have you. Or rather I already shared that view, that if the purpose were mass murder, shooting where found made more sense. The nonsense that the guys out East got so upset at shooting that they had to stop... well. We differ on how far the hoax was calculated or grew organically once the propaganda seed was planted, but that was another thread.

[Cloud]

Sorry to derail a bit, but what is the Exterminationist's explanation for how the cyanide gas was expelled from the morgues before one could enter to collect the bodies for disposal?

[nathan]

In his pre-trial interrogation Bruno Tesch said:

Q Are you certain your gas was not use for extermination by the SS?
Tesch: I am not sure, but I consider it improbable, because there was a shortage of prussic acid an there was such a large quantity of vermin to be exterminated......

Q :Would [prussic acid gas] not be the best of all gasses if you wanted to do it quickly and on a large scale?
Tesch: not to kill people, that is to say warm-blooded beings. Carbon Dioxide would be used
Q: Was it as easily produced as prussic acid?
Tesch: Yes, as easily produced
Q: Which was cheaper
Tesch; Probably Carbon Dioxide

Tesch had not given much thought to the kind of mass homicide for which he was soon to be hanged. But his opinion must have weight. Cyanide gas seemed to him self-evidently a non-starter. He does not mention carbon monoxide, although that too would probably serve better than cyanide, and apparently could have been produced without waste of petrol. Carbon dioxide does not have such a toxic reputation, but it has indeed been use to kill warm blooded animals, though I cannot picture the technique. I think there was a recent controversy as to whether it was after all as humane as had always been believed.

Orthodoxy tells us that various methods in various places were improvised by non-experts as makeshift adaptations. An even less credible feature of these stories, for me, is that during the three years of this colossal industrial enterprise, these makeshift methods thereafter do not change. There is no technical development.

[Kingfisher]

there was a shortage of prussic acid

This puts me in mind of Pressac's statement that less than 5% of the ZyKlon B was used for killing people.

What sort of quantities would be needed for killings on the scale claimed, and how does tis compare with quantities used for deinfestaion?

[ps]

Assuming the testimony regarding the killing times are true and it attaches on average three minutes killing time you could kill with less than 0.5 kg Zyklon B 1500 Jews. However, it must be the gas chamber temperature 1200 ° C, if one attaches a Haber'sches lethality product of 3000 ppm * min.
But if we take a more credible to 15 000 ppm * min, in line with the U.S. gas chambers for three minutes loss of consciousness entry, had to pay for it for the same killing time, 1 kg Zyklon B already. And the gas chamber would have to be preheated to 1455 ° C.

From these figures one can calculate then the consumption of Zyklon B for the gas chamber killings according to the testimony closely. Because I know that Zyklon B was in short supply, and I tend to the 15 000 ppm*min, it seems logical that you have used 1 kg Zyklon B per gasification. However, it must still be resolved, how many Jews are in a 1455 ° C gas chamber could do and with what resources we have managed to drive the Jews in such a white glowing gas chamber. Perhaps with persuasion?

Then you can calculate: Zyklon B quantity [kg] = 0,00066 * Jews or 0,00033 * Jews

That is according to http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... o-columns/

[Carto's Cutlass Supreme]

Hi PS: White glowing gas chamber? C'mon.

Probably a gasifier is a good way to get nitrogen gas since it burns up the oxygen to create CO, and the CO also helps the gas to be lethal.

[ps]

Hi PS: White glowing gas chamber? C'mon.

Of course you need white glowing gas chambers to gassing Jews within the testified 1 minute killing time with Zyklon B and testified Kula-wire mesh columns!

Or do you mean, that 2100°C is a dark radiation?