the lack of cyanide residue in the alleged 'gas chambers'

[Richard Perle]

The trouble is, if believers want to bring up forensic tests they have a problem in that the same walls have been tested several times over the past 20 years with entirely different results. The flaws in the type of test conducted here are made clear by the text you just quoted. They merely found trace of cyanide in the paint and perhaps some of the galvanized metal. Playwright has pointed out the use of zinc-cyanide in the galvanization process.
I wouldn't like to have to argue in favour of this flawed report, but the mere fact that we are points to the fragility of the orthodox holocaust theses.

Why are they making an issue out of the hair. We are told that heads were shaved before gassing, and everybody agrees that inmates' heads were shaved for reasons of hygiene. Finding cyanide on hair only tells us that the shorn hair was fumigated before possibly being put to use (which itself isn't immoral).

The letter says that the items were handed over to the forensic institute. Who exactly handed them over?

Vallon, a question: do you find it reasonable to trust the Polish or Russian authorities when it comes to providing evidence for warcrimes trials? Usually when people are shown to have lied repeatedly we will put small value on any other claims they make. This goes for the accuser as well as the accused. Do you find the Soviet Katyn evidence to be as compelling as this supposed forensic work at Auschwitz? (some of the same people were involved in gathering evidence for both crimes) How about Demjanjuk's ID card?

[PLAYWRIGHT]

- Pressac's work has been shown to be blatently fraudulent, why should we believe him in regards to where these vent covers came from? Was he merely told so.

Pressac's work has been well repudiated by Rudolph, Mattagno et. al., but I've never heard anybody say it's blatently fraudulent, just that he came to wrong conclusions. The book seems to have been written in good faith, and considering that the Klarsfeld husband and wife fraud team commissioned it, remarkably free of bias, at least as much as can be expected under the circumstances.

Robert Faurisson has praised Pressac - albiet backhandedly - for flawed or not, his work is an invaluable resource on Auschwitz, going into never-before seen detail about the Zentralsauna, the disinfestation chambers, he even noted the use of the microwave delousing device, a technological innovation that may have been the first ever use of a microwave oven of any kind.

Hopefullly, a book just as detailed about the rest of Auschwitz/Birkenau - the theater, the kitchens, the metal and woodworking shops, and details about Monowitz will also be forthcoming. Heh - the Klarsfield's got more than they bargained for when they arranged for Pressac to write "The Big Book", and it's no secret that they were not happy that he found what he found.

I have no reason to believe that the ventilation covers are not from the Krema's. Nobody denies that Krema's II and III DID have a forced ventilation system - of the five Krema's, they were the only ones that did - so obviously, there had to be vent covers of some kind, and since these covers are not consistent with the disinfestation chambers (see pictures), I'm prepared to accept them as from the Krema's. They peak my interest because they did have cyanide residue on them, or to be more specific, the paint on them did, though I doubt that the residue is from homicidal gassings. Needless to say, I'd like to know the origin of that cyanide, and I'm doing my best to study up on metallurgy and chemistry to see how it got there. So far, I think it was a byproduct of the galvanizing process, but I want to make sure.

The fact that the Kola Commission never did publish their 1990 investigation - just statements on the results - is suspicious, as well as infuriating and frustrating, for as I've said before, I suspect that the non-ferrous cyanide residue they found in the Krema's is modern air pollution from the nearby rubber factories.

Just as infuriating as the - 1964? - test drillings at Auschwitz, which I knew nothing about until yesterday. Apparently, the Auschwitz State Museum contracted with a private drilling company to do some test drills around the camp, where the only thing that's been said is that they found some "bones and hair". Where the drillings were conducted, and what else they found, the complete report - never published. WHY?

And chill on Vallon guys. I like his questions, I would never have looked closer at the vents if he hadn't pointed out that the ferrocyanide was a result of the testing procedure. I had assumed it was ferrocyanide in the paint, and I was wrong. Good detective work is always to be appreciated.

[Hannover]

PLAYWRIGHT:

Pressac's work has been well repudiated by Rudolph, Mattagno et. al., but I've never heard anybody say it's blatently fraudulent, just that he came to wrong conclusions.

Not so fast comrade, see:

'Answer to Jean-Claude Pressac on the Problem of the Gas chambers'
Robert Faurisson
http://vho.org/GB/Books/anf/Faurisson1.html#h4
which includes:

'Deceptions that are Pressac's own'

"Several times in the past I have pointed out that Pressac does not hold back from trickery .... "

Yes Pressac work provides Revisionists with many a gift because his work is so easily debuked and he provided interesting documents for Revisionist review. But that's probably a separate topic.

On the vents, and yes I do realize that the cremas had vents:

- How do you know there was 'cyanide on them'?

- Should we accept the unverified conclusion from a claimed Polish study which we cannot see and read?

- Why should we accept the claimed cyanide laden vents which cannot be presented for review?

The "test drillings at Auschwitz" which yielded only bone & hair are a problem for the storyline since we know that typhus epidemics required the occasional open air cremations, and the hair is a problem since it was supposedly shorn from those allegedly gassed ... oops. And even at that, we cannot see the methodology or complete data, which means the tests were even more destructive to the lies than we're told.

Chill on Vallon?
If he would stop dodging reasonable questions put to him there would be no need to repeat the questions. He can read the guidelines, I assume.

- Hannover

[Richard Perle]

I want to point out that I value Vallon's presense here and wish for more believers to join him. I do most of my best learning when informed people are debating.

Vallon said:

The other two pages are about the hair, and about objects found in the bags with hair.

I'd be interested in knowing what objects were found with the hair. They might gives clues as to what the hair was used for.

[PLAYWRIGHT]

Well, FYI for everybody, checking with my engineer friends, I have to point out that the zinc-cyanide galvanizing process that was undoubtedly used on the ventilator sheets is a dead end. Everybody I've talked to who works in electro-plating are adamant that this would result in no cyanide residue on the finished product. Electro-plating, until recently the only means known to build one substance on another atom by atom results only in the targeted metal being deposited on the anode, the metal you want to bind it to. There would be no cyanide residue left by this process to be detected.

I shouldn't have slept through the chapter on Faraday in chemistry...

On the other hand, they are also adamant that exposure of metallic zinc to HCN or hydrocyanic acid would also not result in any cyanide residue. For cyanide to bind to a metal (and that includes iron), the metal has to be in one of it's oxidation states, and by definition, any pure sheet of metal is in an oxidation state of zero.

Hydrocyanic acid CAN be used as a reducing agent - reducing a metal to one of it's oxidation states - and Rudolph speculates that this is what may have happened to create Prussian blue staining in walls, but the iron in brick is already in it's second oxidation state (FE(II)) and that would make the reaction easier. Hydrocyanic acid is very weak, and any reduction it caused in the zinc - which only has one common oxidation state, ZN(II) - would result not in zinc cyanide, but zinc oxide, the oxygen outcompeting the cyanide to bind with the metal. The fact that zinc tends to jump straight to it's second oxidation state - the first is very unstable - is what makes it such a good agent to coat iron with, even in an environment with acid rain, it oxidizes very slowly.

And since these are the inlet, not outlet vents for the Leichenkeller, it's unlikely that significant amounts of hydrocyanic acid - HCN dissolved in water - made it's way to the back of the vent covers, which were the unpainted parts. If ANY zinc cyanide was created, it would have been so small, that nobody would have noted it as "white matter".

To create zinc cyanide is a miserable process. You have to dissolve zinc oxide in a dilute solution of acid, then add the cyanide, then bubble air through it as a catalyst. In the acid, the zinc oxide is reduced as follows:

ZnO + 2H+ → Zn(2+) + H2O

So when the cyanide meets the zinc, the zinc is already in it's second oxidation state and binds readily to form zinc cyanide, which is a heavy white powder that is insoluable in water. The "white matter" that they tested could not be zinc cyanide.

In fact, the mystery of the "white matter" is arousing my Captain Ahab instinct. The fact that they didn't identify the "white matter" is an appallingly sloppy piece of forensic investigation. With what few clues I've got, I'm pretty sure that it was concrete or plaster dust left from the demolition of the Krema, the smell and the amount of it are my best clues, but of course, I can't be sure, and that's damnably frustrating. Without that white matter identified, I can't accept the report of cyanide residue found in it as proof - or disproof - of homicidal gassings. It stands, right now, as irrelevant, and will be until I can get a chemical ID on the "white matter".

On the positive side, I'm relearning a lot of chemistry...

Finally, since most of us are men, it's important to know that zinc is a necessary component of semen, and lack of it leads to a low sperm count. Broccoli is your best source.

[Richard Perle]

I have looked back through this thread and I don't think it is at all clear what was tested. The translation says that the vents, 4 plus 2 damaged, were handed over, along with some mortar scraped from the walls. The vents were covered with a strongly adherent layer (what was this, paint?) and enough was scraped off to create a 7.2gram sample.
Was this tested separately from the mortar?

Vallon quotes a part:

"The laboratory report noted that these were covered with a thin, white-coloured and strongly smelling deposit."

But this comes immediately after mentioning the hair. Was this stuff on the hair or on the vents? I don't think this is nearly as clear as it should be.

[Scott]

And since these are the inlet, not outlet vents for the Leichenkeller, it's unlikely that significant amounts of hydrocyanic acid - HCN dissolved in water - made it's way to the back of the vent covers, which were the unpainted parts. If ANY zinc cyanide was created, it would have been so small, that nobody would have noted it as "white matter".

How do you know that they were inlet vents?

Each of Kremas II or III had four vents on the roof of the main building, an inlet vent for Leichenkeller-1 and an exhaust vent for LK-1 right next to it. There were two more vents (inlet/outlet) for the Auskleiderraum, the long hall.

[PLAYWRIGHT]

How do you know that they were inlet vents?

Each of Kremas II or III had four vents on the roof of the main building, an inlet vent for Leichenkeller-1 and an exhaust vent for LK-1 right next to it. There were two more vents (inlet/outlet) for the Auskleiderraum, the long hall.

Pressac states here that they were inlet vents.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0487.shtml

While his source for this is the records of the Auschwitz State Museum, I have no reason to doubt him. Obviously, there would have to be inlet vents in Krema II and III, since they did have a forced ventilation system, and these look like likely candidates, especially since one side of them are whitewashed.

These would be the vents in the Leichenkeller's themselves, not the external hardware. According to Pressac, Leichenkeller 1 of Krema II alone had 50 of these, Leichnkeller 2 probably another 50, arranged in the corners of the ceiling. That seems excessive, but I've never seen a detailed drawing of what the ceiling intake system would look like, so for now, I'll accept that description.

[Hannover]

Playwright:

That seems excessive, but I've never seen a detailed drawing of what the ceiling intake system would look like, so for now, I'll accept that description.

But why?
'FIFTY' ventilation vents and they're not on any diagrams/plans of the structure? Absurd.

It's an attempt to manufacture a way for the removal of Zyklon-B such that the alleged corpses could be removed quickly, in the timeframe alleged. And once again, that contradicts the latest claim that Zyklon was withdrawn through alleged wiremesh devices and allowed to continue outgassing on the roof of the alleged gas chambers ... where others would accidentally be gassed.

From one ridiculous story to another.

That's the 'holocaust' .... impossible as alleged.

- Hannover

[Scott]

Pressac states here that they were inlet vents.

Oh sorry, you meant the fresh-air inlets in the Leichenkeller itself.

I understand, although these would be blowing the HCN away from them once the ventilation system was energized--so if the exposure time was as short as possible, save for killing everybody in the chamber, then one would think these structures would be the least exposed to the gas in the entire room.

Anyway, the structure for this is two long flat sheets (of plywood?) mounted on the upper ceiling in triangular fashion along the length of each long wall. This provides a conduit for fresh air that is blown down from the ceiling for the benefit of the morgue workers. The putrid air is removed from near the floor in brick or concrete conduits also running along the long walls.

In this cross-sectional diagram of LK-1 you can see the triangular fresh-air conduits at the top and the exhaust gutters at the bottom:

[Hannover]

Previous posts mention an alleged vent which supposedly held cyanide residue. References are made to J.C. Pressac's efforts in this regard. Efforts, I must add, which have not stood up to scrutiny.

question:

Does Pressac claim this vent to be one of his alleged 'criminal traces'?

- Hannover

[Turpitz]

So what? The blueprints probably don't show electrical wiring either.

A fascinating and in-depth reply by our knowledgeable friend! You need to take a closer look at the infantile mock-up floor-plans a little closer before coming in with fists flying. That’s the attitude that has caused you to be up to your necks and floundering in Iraq for your Zionist masters.

Easy answer if you knew your subject, which it is plainly obvious you don’t. The reason they need to be on the floor-plans is simply because they are part of the sub-structure and are inherent to the load bearing fabric of the building. The electrical circuits are second/ third fix and have no bearing on any of the actual structure. The mock-ups clearly show an attempt by a moron to draw the drainage system, only if you knew anything about ground-works you could instantly see it is seriously flawed and most certainly not designed by a proficient German architect.

On the vents, and yes I do realize that the cremas had vents:

No-one is suggesting the building did not have some form of ventilation system, rather the question is ‘Are these diabolical plans a true representation of the convoluted mess that once formed this system, or an attempt by an idiot to create what he would rather like?” I am of the opinion it is the latter and there are many reasons why, the disastrous drainage system being just one of them. They are forgeries, and crap ones at that!

[Mortimer McMuddle]

So if the floor drain that Rudolf describes in his report is not on the blueprints it means they were forged?

[Radar]

The blueprint for the morgue I gas chamber at Birkenau II shows what Scott said. It has a triangular blower duct inside the chamber running along the top of the wall at the merge with the ceiling. The exhaust duct was shown outside the wall and under the ground running along the base of the wall. The inlets for this duct were shown to be about 1-2 feet up the wall. At this height the bodies would have fallen and blocked the vents, making Dr Green's ventilation theory impossible.


Dr Green also went to lengths to show how the moisture content of the gas chamber wall after washing would have broken down the cyanide, making Prussian Blue formation impossible. However, he doesn't confront why the Majdanek 'gas chambers' are covered in Prussian Blue.

[Mortimer McMuddle]

Even if the washing had broken down the cyanide it would not have broken down all the cyanide uniformly. There would still be streaks and staining in various places.