Treblinka and railway gauge.

[borjastick]

Looking at the Treblinka situation has led me to consider why there is a lack of data concerning the onward shipments of jews east into the Russian hinterlands. One consideration posed by many is that Treblinka was there as a transit camp. This makes sense but one then asks the questions why was it where it was?

One of the theories is that the railway lines further to the east were a different gauge. Certainly by checking on various websites catering for train enthusiasts, the Russian gauge railway system was considerably wider than that mainly used in central and western Europe at the time.

So my questions are, is it possible that Treblinka was a suitable place at or close to the end of that narrower gauge railway system before putting people on the wider Russian gauge lines. Plus is there much info available on this theory and railway stock etc.

We are of the strong belief that Treblinka was a transit camp and that it is nonsense to suggest that 700,000 + Jews were murdered there. But it would be of great help if we can prove they were shunted (excuse the pun) further east. The records show Jews going to Treblinka but not much exists to prove an onward journey. If they were then the responsibility of someone else that would perhaps explain the lack of records, apart from the obvious one that these records were destroyed as part of the cover up and framing of the Germans.

[Turpitz]

We are of the strong belief that Treblinka was a transit camp and that it is nonsense to suggest that 700,000 + Jews were murdered there. But it would be of great help if we can prove they were shunted (excuse the pun) further east. The records show Jews going to Treblinka but not much exists to prove an onward journey.

Your off again, straight back to easily forgeable paper records. If they were whacked there (and that's a lot of veal), then there would be physical records, but to date the industry cannot produce any such physical record. It's a good job Sir Arthur Conan Doyle didn't have this mindset of no physical evidence where murder is concerned, as Holmes may as well have stayed in bed .

[borjastick]

Not sure what you message is or where you are on this at all. Are you saying few even went to Treblinka or what? By the way I am not off again anywhere, but putting some thoughts out there for discussion. My argument is they were not 'whacked' there or perhaps anywhere else. But in order to lend weight to this proposition I feel we should be looking to see or understand where they went to afterward and how they were transported, hence this thread.

[Moderator]

FYI, related comments here:
MrNobody @ Russian gauge and the Holocaust
M1

[Turpitz]

Not sure what you message is or where you are on this at all. Are you saying few even went to Treblinka or what?

It could not be simpler, If Jews were murdered in any great number at a given location, there would be a far greater probability for there to be a physical record of this so-called murder than anything else, but there isn't. Common sense would then dictate, nothing then happened, simple!

[hermod]

Looking at the Treblinka situation has led me to consider why there is a lack of data concerning the onward shipments of jews east into the Russian hinterlands. One consideration posed by many is that Treblinka was there as a transit camp. This makes sense but one then asks the questions why was it where it was?

One of the theories is that the railway lines further to the east were a different gauge. Certainly by checking on various websites catering for train enthusiasts, the Russian gauge railway system was considerably wider than that mainly used in central and western Europe at the time.

So my questions are, is it possible that Treblinka was a suitable place at or close to the end of that narrower gauge railway system before putting people on the wider Russian gauge lines. Plus is there much info available on this theory and railway stock etc.

You're right. The Bug river was on the former border between the Prussian empire and the Russian empire. That's why the Soviet-German border was located at that place in 1939. And that's why the Germans built Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka camps along the Bug River. The Russian rail gauge was 1,520 mm (4 ft 11 5⁄6 in) wide and the Standard rail gauge (Central and Western Europe) was 1,435 mm (4 ft 8 1⁄2 in) wide.

The tracks of the railroad lines in Germany and Poland were then, and still are today, a different width, or gauge, than the tracks across the eastern border of the Bialystok District in what used to be Russia, and is now the country of Byelorussia or Belarus, known in America as White Russia. Three kilometers from Treblinka was located the main railroad line into Russia, through the Bialystok province.

The location of Chelmno camp was linked to the complicated history of the Kujawy region (http://polishrail.wordpress.com/2009/10 ... 1880-1939/ - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kujawy).

The German conquest of Soviet and formerly Soviet-annexed territory following Operation Barbarossa in June 1941 meant that the German railway administration had to face certain transport problems caused by the fact that Germany and the USSR employed different widths for their railway gauges. While the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact lasted, efforts were in fact made to alleviate this logistical problem, as described in a 1940 New York Times article recently adduced by Eric Hunt:33

“Nine pairs of railway stations on the New German-Russian frontier will hum soon with activity through the reloading of Russian raw materials and German industrial goods from wide to standard gauge freight cars and vice versa, if Nazi expectations are fulfilled.

These stations, all in what until last September was Poland, are listed with those on the German side first: Szczepki, Augustow, Prostken-Grajewo, Malkinia-Zaremba, Platerow-Siemiatycze, Terespol-Brest-Litovsk, Chelm-Jagodzin, Belzec-Rawa Ruska, Zurawicz-Przemysl and Nowogrod-Salus.[...]

Of the nine projected transfer points along the German-Russian frontier all but one have already been opened to bring minerals, oil and grain to Germany. The ninth - at Chelm-Jagodzin - must wait until a new bridge is built over the Bug River.”

Preserved documents show that the direct transports to Belarus often travelled via Platerow.34

It is an already well-known fact that the Aktion Reinhardt camps were located near the Soviet-German demarcation line and therefore near to were the gauge changed. The Treblinka camp was located only some 5 kilometers south of Małkinia and the Bug River (which formed most of the demarcation line). Sobibór is located only some 2.5 km west of the Bug River.35

Sobibór was connected to the Chełm-Włodawa railway line.36 From testimony we also know that trains travelling from Minsk to Sobibór in the autumn of 1943 (at the time of the evacuation of the Minsk ghetto) passed through Chełm; the same no doubt held true for transports in the opposite direction.37 Sobibór is located some 40 km north from Chełm.38From Chełm the railway line continued east into the Ukraine with the city of Kowel as final station.39

As seen from the abovementioned New York Times article Bełżec was located right at one of the nine transfer points. That the camp was not on the border of the Generalgouvernement is due to its expansion to incorporate East Galicia (the Lemberg district) on 1 August 1941 (before 22 June 1941 Rawa Ruska had thus belonged to the Ukrainian SSR).

Upon noticing the establishment of a series of small camps – the construction of Bełżec began already in late fall 1941 – with railway connections, all located in the immediate vicinity of the former demarcation line and the Soviet-German railway transfer points, it would not have taken long for the propagandists to figure out that the Germans were constructing transit camps for Jews. The very nature of these camps – temporary stop-overs from where deportees after passing through a delousing process would continue to distant, little-known places in the east under another administration, with no prospects of a return west in the foreseeable future – could easily have suggested the “pure extermination center” story.

Unfortunately for the propagandists, some knowledge about the actual destinations for some of the Jewish transports seeped through to the civilian population. The initial reaction of the propagandists seems to have been to dismiss these transports as exceptions or “decoy transports” used to fool the Jews remaining behind into believing that actual resettlement was taking place. Later, when postcards from deported Jews continued to reach the Warsaw ghetto, one launched the allegation that the Germans were forging the letters or forcing deportees to write postcards with misleading contents after their arrival at the “extermination camps.”40

http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... report.php

We are of the strong belief that Treblinka was a transit camp and that it is nonsense to suggest that 700,000 + Jews were murdered there. But it would be of great help if we can prove they were shunted (excuse the pun) further east. The records show Jews going to Treblinka but not much exists to prove an onward journey. If they were then the responsibility of someone else that would perhaps explain the lack of records, apart from the obvious one that these records were destroyed as part of the cover up and framing of the Germans.

Nazi concentration camps for people who were "unfit for work" in Soviet Russia:
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t931948/

Evidence for the Presence of “Gassed” Jews in the Occupied Eastern Territories:
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... d_jews.php
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... jews_2.php
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... part_3.php

[borjastick]

Not sure what you message is or where you are on this at all. Are you saying few even went to Treblinka or what?

It could not be simpler, If Jews were murdered in any great number at a given location, there would be a far greater probability for there to be a physical record of this so-called murder than anything else, but there isn't. Common sense would then dictate, nothing then happened, simple!

Don't disagree with that at all and never suggested otherwise. I am merely investigating the next step of the process of the deportation of the jews through places like Treblinka. Simples!"

[Kingfisher]

The railway gauge issue makes a lot of sense and it also makes sense that the change of train would be combined with a delousing station. In the thread referred to by the Moderator, it is suggested, by at least one poster, that the Germans would have changed the gauge. I have no evidence one way or the other, so I can only speculate and ask questions, but the area in question had been part of Poland for 20 years. Did the Poles change the gauge in that time? If they did, did the Soviets change it back between 1939 and 1941?

The difference between the gauges is only 3 1/2 inches and locomotives and rolling stock built for standard gauge can run on the wider gauge, though with greater wear. The Germans would have had to use their own or Polish rolling stock, as the Soviets evacuated their materiel ahead of the invasion.

[EtienneSC]

I am with Borjastick in having difficulty in composing a coherent narrative on the river Bug camps (Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec). The situation is that there are two mutually corroborating documents (the Korherr report and the Hoefle telegram) indicating 1.247 million people transited through these camps "to the Russian East".

However, there has been significant work analyzing records in the various areas of the Russian East and there is little or no record of numbers of refugees on this scale being received there. Neither is there record of them being liberated by the Soviets in their westward sweep in 1943-45.

On the other hand, there is no indication of mass killings at the camps themselves and the original documentation also counts against this.

One response would be that the Korherr report and Hoefle telegram are misleading. Although the Korherr report seems to draw on the Hoefle telegram figures, the basis of the latter is unclear. The numbers of deportees from histories of the camps seem to be based on hearsay and numbers of trains, carriages per train and occupants per carriage multiplied up.

Borjastick has brought up this issue before and I think it merits closer investigation.

[hermod]

I am with Borjastick in having difficulty in composing a coherent narrative on the river Bug camps (Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec). The situation is that there are two mutually corroborating documents (the Korherr report and the Hoefle telegram) indicating 1.247 million people transited through these camps "to the Russian East".

However, there has been significant work analyzing records in the various areas of the Russian East and there is little or no record of numbers of refugees on this scale being received there. Neither is there record of them being liberated by the Soviets in their westward sweep in 1943-45.

Could Uncle Joe's census be relied on anyway?


On April 30, 1945, Hitler dies and Germany Surrenders a few days later. The 1st news which comes out of Germany is that 6 million Jews are safe and were found working in hidden factories. The news was published in New York Times on May 20, 1945.


http://lovkap.blogspot.com/2010_09_01_archive.html

And what about the Jews who were "unfit for work"?

At Nuremberg, on February 8th 1946, Soviet IMT-Chief prosecutor general Rudenko, declared in his opening speech:

"Upon investigations by the Extraordinary State Commission of the Soviet Union, it was found that at the front, behind their main line of defense, the Hitlerites had systematically constructed special concentration camps where they kept tens of thousands of children, women who were unfit for work, and old men".

He continued:

"I must name the concentration camps of Smolensk (Russia), Stavropol (Russia), Kharkov (Ukraine), Kiev (Ukraine), Lvov (Ukraine), Poltava (Ukraine), Novgorod (Russia), Orel (Russia), Rovno (Ukraine), Dniepropetrovsk (Ukraine), Odessa (Ukraine), Kamenetz-Podolsk (Russia), Gomel (White Russia), Kerch (Ukraine), of the Stalingrad region (Russia), of Kaunas (Lithuania), Riga (Latvia), Mariampol (Lithuania) of Kloga (Estonia) and many others [...]". [IMT, VII, 180] - http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-08-46.asp

Three of these camps were described in detail in document USSR-4: “On March 19, 1944, Soviet forces find in Polesia (White Russia), inside the German defense line three concentration camps in Ozaritschi, between Minsk and Kiev; in those camps there were more than 33.000 children, women, elderly people and people unfit for work".

"Army sources said that 'Eastern European Jews' were flooding into the [American] zone [of occupied Germany] at the rate of 10,000 a month. Many of them are coming from Russia and if they join those in Poland in a apparent mass movement toward Palestine, we may have to look after 3,000,000 of them." - The New York Times, June 24, 1946.

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract. ... 5B8688F1D3
http://winstonsmithministryoftruth.blog ... 59d14e8149

(One has to know that many of the jews expelled from Western and Central Europe by the Nazis during the Final Solution were in fact 'Eastern European Jews' who had fled the antisemitic Czarist Russia a few decades earlier. For example more than 90% of the Jews living in Belgium during WW2 were not Belgian Jews. Most of them were Eastern European Jews who had recently arrived in Belgium. http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n2p-2_Weber.html)

"2,200,000 [Jews] have migrated to the Soviet Union since 1939 to escape from the Nazis,"
http://www.ihr.org/books/harwood/dsmrd02.html


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YO ... 1%2C126302

http://winstonsmithministryoftruth.blog ... 52b62dec64


Many of the supposedly Holocausted Jews who chose not to go to Palestine after WW2 opted for America.
http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/9c7142f8334 ... b6ecaa.jpg
http://winstonsmithministryoftruth.blog ... in-us.html

[Hannover]

Hermod:
Nice work! 'So, where did they go then?' easily demonstrated.

Revisionists are just the messengers, the utter impossibility of the stupid 'holocaust' story line is the message.

The tide is turning.

- Hannover

[borjastick]

Hermod this is fantastic, another but very different use of the fabled 6m figure; Though how they would actually have counted them is a different matter. The point is that at that point so close after the war's end the 6m figure of alive and saved jews comes up.

[hermod]

Hermod:
Nice work!

Hermod this is fantastic, another but very different use of the fabled 6m figure; Though how they would actually have counted them is a different matter. The point is that at that point so close after the war's end the 6m figure of alive and saved jews comes up.

Thank you Hannover and Borjastick.

Somebody working for the New York Times at that time apparently thought 6 million jewish liberated 'slave laborers' would be good martyrs for the Zionist Holocaust myth. But others decided that only 6 million killed and burnt jews ('Holocaust' means burnt offering after all) would be convenient martyrs for the Zionist Holocaust myth. Nevertheless the 6 million figure proved its baseless (except on a religious basis) fraudulent nature once again.

[Hannover]

Hermod this is fantastic, another but very different use of the fabled 6m figure; Though how they would actually have counted them is a different matter. The point is that at that point so close after the war's end the 6m figure of alive and saved jews comes up.

Agreed, borjastick. The various discrepancies are part & parcel to the 'holocaust'. As with the so called 'eyewitness' statements, 'survivor' claims, repeatedly exposed fraudulence at Nuremberg & the other Show Trials, it all contradicts itself.
Like everything else with the 'holocaust', nothing makes sense or adds up, and those that benefit are realizing that more & more folks are figuring it out.

It's great being right!

The tide is turning.

- Hannover

[borjastick]

I actually think this New York Times article that hermod has provided blows apart the six million deaths case once and for all, or am I being overly dramatic? Especially when one looks at the date may 20th 1945. The war in europe was not yet over and certainly Germany and the eastern european territories were far from open. Therefore this 6m slave laborers malarkey can only have been placed by the Zionists in the Zionist NYT.

Caught with their pants down or what? We should make the most of this. Can anyone prepare a simple and short youtube video. I'll try but am a cretin when it comes to video production.