Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

[Callahan]

I think there needs to be a thread like this and I'm not sure if one already exists. Obviously, it is ludicrous to suggest German soldiers, individually and in groups, were exempt from the same kind of atrocities we see committed by soldiers from most nations in nearly every war. Within the last decade, certain Americans are known to have abused and humiliated Iraqis and other Middle Eastern soldiers and civilians, toyed with their corpses, tortured, raped, etc.. We know the Soviets committed horrendous acts against their own citizens and citizens abroad during WWII. It is fair to acknowledge that German soldiers undoubtedly committed similar acts. One example I'd say it is fair to acknowledge comes from an older man in the following video clip who tells a story of how his grandmother, who was sick in bed, was shot dead by German soldiers. Holding this in the context of the euthanasia program going on around this period in time, along with an undoubtedly antisemitic culture among the soldiers, I think this may have been viewed as permissible to some of them and might very well have been "swept under the rug" by their superiors:

(Start at 15:24)

http://youtu.be/dufRwQFHPO0?t=15m24s

Any thoughts on this, or any other examples of legitimate Nazi atrocities worth mentioning?

[Scotsman]

The worst that is denied by no one are probably the Einsatzgruppen shootings, though I agree that accurate numbers may never be known. We can say that many of them were partisans, and perhaps a large number may have been justifiable, but can we really say that they were all guilty? Just imagine if it were any other country that ran anti-partisan death squads like that, it would rightly be condemned. Some revisionists get a little too eager to defend Germany when they make justifications of the Einsatzgruppen policy. Like you said, it is easy to imagine alot of 'bad shootings' being swept under the rug.

[Carto's Cutlass Supreme]

It's really hard to know about real German atrocities because lying is so prevalent among Jews of the time, and because there were Allied government disinformation campaigns regarding German atrocities.

World At War. The BBC television series that was shown all over the world in the 1970's featured Oradour Sur Glane as a place of German soldiers committing atrocities, but information at Scrapbookpages.com on the subject shows that it was retaliation against atrocities done to German soldiers. That World of War left that out shows their dishonesty.

There is the Malmedy massacre and interestingly Joe McCarthy got involved in that.

Basically, with so much lying and disinformation it's hard to know.

[Kingfisher]

Vincent Reynouard has done time in prison for questioning the official version of Oradour. He argues that the village was a Maquis centre and that it was an anti-partisan raid. The women and children were put into the church while the men were questioned and the houses searched. He says the burning of the church was an accident resulting from it being used as an ammunition depot. he also adds that he SS were tense because of the murder of other SS men in the area not long before.

A few years ago I visited Lidice. I was still a Holocaust agnostic at the time. I couldn't help feeling that, sad as it was for those involved, it was pretty small beer alongside Hamburg or Dresden.

I either read or heard Mark Weber recently saying that the German occupation of Western Europe was humane but they got quite nasty in Poland. Sorry I can't recall more detail.

[Dresden]

Callahan said:

"it is ludicrous to suggest German soldiers, individually and in groups, were exempt from the same kind of atrocities we see committed by soldiers from most nations in nearly every war"

You have no proof of that.
The Germans were the most moral and upright people in the world.
They didn't gang-rape women and children, or skin people alive, or cut off their genitals, or nail them to walls,

Those things were done by the "Good Guys", i.e., American and British trash, and Soviet monsters.

"Within the last decade, certain Americans are known to have abused and humiliated Iraqis and other Middle Eastern soldiers and civilians, toyed with their corpses, tortured, raped, etc.."

What does that have to do with Germany?

"We know the Soviets committed horrendous acts against their own citizens and citizens abroad during WWII"

During WWII?.....They butchered, tortured, starved, slaughtered, raped, and worked to death tens of millions of Christians.....IN PEACE TIME!

What does that have to do with Germany?

"It is fair to acknowledge that German soldiers undoubtedly committed similar acts"

Huh?

"One example I'd say it is fair to acknowledge comes from an older man in the following video clip who tells a story of how his grandmother, who was sick in bed, was shot dead by German soldiers"

You've GOT to be KIDDING!

Is that all you've got, Callahan?

You start thread about German "atrocities" without even contributing to the thread by giving a single documented example that could in any way compare to Allied atrocities which fill volumes.

The Allies committed a thousand times the atrocities against Germany AFTER the war, than Germany committed during the war.

I say the old man in the video is either lying or was lied to; that's just my opinion.

"Holding this in the context of the euthanasia program going on around this period in time, along with an undoubtedly antisemitic culture among the soldiers, I think this may have been viewed as permissible to some of them and might very well have been "swept under the rug" by their superiors"

That's just guesswork and false accusation, Callahan.

Scotsman said:

".....it is easy to imagine alot of 'bad shootings' being swept under the rug"

Yes, it's easy to imagine.....I do it often.

To paraphrase Arthur Butz:

"What some Revisionists fail to understand, is that there was a war going on during World War II"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uopjdkvX ... w6&index=1

http://whale.to/b/bacque1.html

http://trutube.tv/video/14903/The-Contr ... dd_comment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IAZMsYb ... 6&index=26

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23pNOPJt ... 6&index=25

[Dresden]

Kingfisher said:

".....sad as it was for those involved, it was pretty small beer alongside Hamburg or Dresden"

Thank you, Kingfisher.

".....the German occupation of Western Europe was humane but they got quite nasty in Poland"

The Germans were welcomed by cheering crowds almost everywhere they went.

If the "got nasty" in Poland, it was for good reason; read the book "Documented Polish Atrocities":

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/polish_atrocities.htm

[Hektor]

I think that may extend to WW2 revisionism from now on. And there seems to be a correlation on how rough people got handled with a pretext of previous atrocities against ethnic Germans and others. One may see the "Einsatzgruppen" in that light. I should add that other anti-partisan units like Koevoet in South-West Africa also got a reputation of not being to nice to their foes.

[hermod]

Holding this in the context of the euthanasia program going on around this period in time, along with an undoubtedly antisemitic culture among the soldiers, I think this may have been viewed as permissible to some of them and might very well have been "swept under the rug" by their superiors:

Some maybe thought they might have been "swept under the rug", but that was a big mistake. Karl Koch probably thought he could kill 2 or 3 Buchenwald inmates with no consequences, but he was arrested by SS Judge Konrad Morgen and executed for that.

In occupied France German soldiers undeniably behaved in a correct and courteous manner towards the French populace. Any violations of this code were severely punished by court martial. William L. Shirer the Jewish journalist and author of The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, though notorious for putting a Jewish spin on the Third Reich, accepted that "The Parisians actually believed the Germans would rape the women and do worse to the men ... the ones who stayed are all the more amazed at the very correct behavior of the troops."

"Everywhere we occupied territories, we've treated the population decently and politely, sometimes perhaps too decently, with much generosity." - Adolf Hitler

"We've never been as free as under German occupation!" - Jewish French writer Jean-Paul Sartre

Can someone remind me why the Euthanasia program or "mercy death" should be regarded as an atrocity? Keeping those pitiful creatures alive, that's an atrocity...

[Callahan]

Callahan said:

"it is ludicrous to suggest German soldiers, individually and in groups, were exempt from the same kind of atrocities we see committed by soldiers from most nations in nearly every war"

You have no proof of that.
The Germans were the most moral and upright people in the world.

You have no proof of that either. Let's be realistic. This was during a war, many of their brethren were being killed in battle, it's fair to expect that many of them were pissed. There are enough accounts like the one in the video I've posted, where the witness really doesn't seem to have an "axe to grind", to at least presume that German human beings were not exempt from the same wartime behavior as non-German human beings.

They didn't gang-rape women and children, or skin people alive, or cut off their genitals, or nail them to walls,

Those things were done by the "Good Guys", i.e., American and British trash, and Soviet monsters.

I don't think it was very common for Americans, British, etc. to do this either. This kind of behavior was the exception, not the rule. If we're going to play that game, I don't think Americans typically shot grandmothers in their beds.

"Within the last decade, certain Americans are known to have abused and humiliated Iraqis and other Middle Eastern soldiers and civilians, toyed with their corpses, tortured, raped, etc.."

What does that have to do with Germany?

"We know the Soviets committed horrendous acts against their own citizens and citizens abroad during WWII"

During WWII?.....They butchered, tortured, starved, slaughtered, raped, and worked to death tens of millions of Christians.....IN PEACE TIME!

What does that have to do with Germany?

"It is fair to acknowledge that German soldiers undoubtedly committed similar acts"

Huh?

I'm making a point for those who would come to this forum with the mentality that Germans were a "special kind of evil" and allowing testimony of legitimate German atrocities to confirm their preexisting anti-German bias. Germans were like any other soldiers who were going through hell. They committed their share of bad deeds. Many were punished for it. I've provided you an example, the testimony of the man in the video, and I'd be at least willing to question whether or not this was an isolated incident, as should you.

"One example I'd say it is fair to acknowledge comes from an older man in the following video clip who tells a story of how his grandmother, who was sick in bed, was shot dead by German soldiers"

You've GOT to be KIDDING!

Is that all you've got, Callahan?

Steve, I'm the last one to give a damn about questionable testimony. I just don't see a huge motive for this guy. He spends his five minutes of fame in front of Parliament condemning Israel in an extremely effective way. There is a fine line between skepticism and incredulity.

You start thread about German "atrocities" without even contributing to the thread by giving a single documented example that could in any way compare to Allied atrocities which fill volumes.

The Allies committed a thousand times the atrocities against Germany AFTER the war, than Germany committed during the war.

I started this thread to inspire other members to post examples (documented, preferably) they may have heard of. I am curious. I think it is ridiculous to suggest that the Germans committed no crimes against humanity throughout the course of the entire war. I'd like examples to show that they, in fact, have. "Sugar-coating" the Nazis doesn't help anyone. Giving a balanced and realistic perspective of what happened makes it a lot easier to communicate these ideas to others.

I say the old man in the video is either lying or was lied to; that's just my opinion.

I would usually agree but I don't see much of a motive to lie with this guy and his claim really isn't that extravagant. As sad as it is, I can see why a decrepit grandmother might be perceived as "dead weight". It would have been cruel, no doubt, but it definitely seems plausible enough to have actually occurred and, again, I just don't feel that this gentleman fits the profile of a typical Zionist hoaxter.

[Hegwood]

The execution of the entire adult male population of the Czech village of Lidice in June 1942 certainly took place and was definitely an atrocity, a war crime. I have not read anything that attempts to separate anti-German war propaganda from fact but it does seem clear that the massacre of 173 adult males did take place. The women of the village were sent to a concentration camp and most survived the war. It is not apparent what happened to the children. They seem to have been treated as orphans. The story that many of them were killed is just more of the holocaust lie.

At one time I was inclined to dismiss the entire Lidice claim as just part of the holocaust fable. However, unlike the holocaust it sounds plausible and seems to be supported by actual evidence. Unlike the holocaust the number of victims is exact, 173, and they have names. Where, when and how they were executed is clearly explained. They were lined up against Horak’s barn, ten at a time, and shot. I don’t know what happened to the bodies of the executed but I feel certain they were exhumed from any mass grave after the war and their final resting place is well known.

If the holocaust was supported by a fraction of that detail and actual evidence I would be hard to refute.

Of course since the Lidice victims weren't Jewish so it wasn’t possible to hide the evidence by simply piling up the bodies and setting them on fire as is claimed happened to the evidence where Jews were allegedly killed!!!!!

[Kingfisher]

The Germans were welcomed by cheering crowds almost everywhere they went.

You are thinking of Ukraine and the Baltic states. I don't think many people other than ethnic Germans welcomed them to Poland.

[hermod]

The execution of the entire adult male population of the Czech village of Lidice in June 1942 certainly took place and was definitely an atrocity, a war crime. I have not read anything that attempts to separate anti-German war propaganda from fact but it does seem clear that the massacre of 173 adult males did take place. The women of the village were sent to a concentration camp and most survived the war. It is not apparent what happened to the children. They seem to have been treated as orphans. The story that many of them were killed is just more of the holocaust lie.

What had the inhabitants of that village done? That story reminds me the story of Oradour-Sur-Glane in France where legitimate measures were quickly turned into atrocity propaganda (http://www.oradour.info/appendix/rikmen01.htm).

[Carto's Cutlass Supreme]

Scrapbookpages.com and furtherglory.wordpress.com are the best places to look for info on this topic.

There's also the alleged burning of POW's in buildings at the end of the war. But because freed Buchenwald inmates had gone into Weimar and raped? robbed? there is the idea it was to prevent that from happening more with freed prisoners. But once again, with some much disinformation it's hard to know what happened.

[neugierig]

The book “Verbrechen der Sieger. Das Schicksal der deutschen Kriegsgefangenen in Osteuropa” (Crimes of the victors. The fate of German POW’s in Eastern Europe [volume two re. the fate of them in the west has disappeared]), provides some details concerning partisan activity and what the EG had to deal with. Just imagine discovering the bodies of your comrades, people you have depended upon and been with for some time, the bodies mutilated, genitals cut off, the tongue cut out, etc. I thank God that I have never been in that situation, because I have no idea how I would have reacted. This happened again and again, and I can well imagine that if a commander had the means to wipe out some in reprisal, did so, and who can blame him?

Having said that, I also believe that we should not glorify anybody, there was a war on and crap happens. Hitler had warned his generals that the war in the east would be different from whatever they had experienced ‘till then, he was right.

Regards
Wilf

[Kingfisher]

What had the inhabitants of that village done?

Well, I don't think they were each personally and individually responsible for the assassination of Heydrich. It was a reprisal against civilians and therefore by any usual standards a war crime or an atrocity, but one among many in the much greater crime and atrocity that was the War. I have already written above that it pales into insignificance alongside Hamburg or Dresden, not to mention Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and of course the "Prussian Holocaust".

My personal take on WW2 is that it was total war where the only thing that mattered was winning, and as a result all moral considerations went out the window, until it was over and the victors had the opportunity to unilaterally try the vanquished for their alleged crimes, defined post factum by the victors.