Hello / 'where did they go?'

[Sweeney]

I'm aware that this is a specialist website and that I don't share comparable knowledge with you. I go on lots of forums on a wide variety of subjects and I find that I can be derided because I don't know what's seen as the basics of the subject. Even so I carry on if I'm interested. That's how I learn.
I've read a fair bit about the 2nd World War but not really too much about the holocaust. I'd like to come on here and ask questions that I guess you would think were simplistic. I can look on here and see detailed discussions about the construction of the gas chambers at Treblinka or something and feel out of my depth.
My view is that the holocaust happened because that's what I've always been taught. I know that just as I know that Henry VIII had 6 wives. If someone was to come along with a convincing arguement as to why it wasn't true I'd think differently. I'm a reasonable person and would be interested in any argument that would change my mind.
So I'd appreciate it if you'd indulge me.
So questions, how many jews were in Europe before the 2nd world war and how many were there after? The ones that disappeared, where did they go?

Thanks.

[Hannover]

This illogical diversion again.

Who said they "disappeared"?

The claim is that they went to huge mass graves which cannot be shown to exist.
We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor, 34,000 at Babi Yar) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.

In the end they went where Jews are, quite simple.

recommended:
'J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8272

Welcome, Hannover

[Sweeney]

Hannover, maybe I'm illogical like you say. I admit I'm ignorant of this subject which is why I'm asking. Do I have to come here fully formed and educated? I really have no firm view on this. I'm just interested that's all. I looked on a couple of links you gave and was told permission denied. Your first question was, "who said they disappeared?" Well I did because that's what I've been taught. Are you saying that they didn't disappear? Did the Jewish population remain at the same level. And if it didn't, why?

[Hannover]

Sweeney asked:

The ones that disappeared, where did they go?

Don't take it personal, but this sort if question is completely backwards, illogical.

Think about it, the storyline says that '6M Jews & 5M others' were all murdered, yet there is no proof they were murdered.
The onus is upon the accuser. That's a basic rule of jurisprudence.
Heretofore that has not happened.

Imagine in a real / legit court of law where someone claims that millions of people were murdered and dumped into mass graves, but then could not produce the claimed mass graves and the alleged contents. They would be laughed out of that court.

IOW, If you start with false premises, everything you subsequently extrapolate from those premises will likewise carry along the original error and thus exhibit error within themselves; aka: garbage in, garbage out.

Please see the thread I linked to for more, population changes are also discussed there.

- Hannover

If Jews are so sure that millions of Jews were murdered, then why do they ask such dumb questions like "what happened to them"?

[Elroy]

Sweeny-

The Holocaust myth is like a religion. A faith based belief in the complete absence of any evidence.

A lifetime of propaganda flips the logical switches and moral compass of the worshippers- including those like you who don't think seriously about it, to not be able to think rationally about it.

A rational question would immediately by- why the hell would the German's expend enormous manpower and fuel they couldn't spare, which they had to make out of coal they were so strapped, to ship Jews from across Europe to camps, just so they could gas them in complex, expensive and labour/capital intensive ways, rather than round them up where they found them and shoot them where they found them.

^From the beginning, it's absurd, but your conditioned to think the ridiculous is rational.

And the theme continues right through. No part of it is "rational".

To answer your question...

There were approx 3-4 million Jews in Europe at wars beginning immediately rendering the figures debunked.

At wars end the "world" population of Jews was approx the same as before sans approx 500,000 who died during this time of ALL causes, whether war related or not.

Those claimed to be holocausted emigrated to Israel, United States or further into the Soviet Uniion or Europe with name changeswhich we can surmise from the evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Sannhet]

how many jews were in Europe before the 2nd world war and how many were there after? The ones that disappeared, where did they go?

Very short answer: Some died, most emigrated.

Slightly longer answer: Certainly hundreds of thousands of Jews, perhaps even a million, died of various causes in the 1940s, just as many other residents of Europe were likewise dying. Hundreds of thousands of Jews died in combat in the Red Army alone, serving as communist soldiers, according to records. Were they Holocaust victims? Others died of deprivation, just as German civilians died in the expulsions and awful mid-1940s conditions in greater-Germany/Europe. Some number of Jews also died in ad-hoc mass killings by elements of the German military or civilian assailants. There has never been evidence produced that confirms that any were gassed or targeted for a genocide campaign, twin persistent rumors with apparent origins in Black Propaganda 'psy-op' operations during the war. Many more Jews, though, emigrated, sometimes multiple times, both before and after the war, to seize new opportunities and not stay in a pre-Wirtschaftswunder Europe that seemed doomed; among other places, America, Australia, South Africa, and, of course, Israel beckoned! That explains much more about where they went than the deaths aforementioned.

I think your question, Sweeney, assumes several things common of those who only know Holocaust Indoctrinationist narratives.

It assumes: (1) That there was a single, one-time "disappearance event" that aligns with the 1942-1944 period (as the orthodox Holocaust mass-killings narrative has it); (2) that records, in general, in 1930s and 1940s Eastern Europe, were as reliable as we presume comparable data to be today; (3) that the definition of 'Jew' is as rock-solid and more-or-less immutable as the word 'human being' (say) for counting purposes (i.e., born a Jew, die a Jew); (4) that Jews of the early-to-mid 20th century were completely immobile, would never seek to emigrate.

Each of these is false and I think demonstrably so. Upon closer examination, each of these factors is one string on which to pull that unravels the Holocaust 'yarn.'

In brief:

(1) The emptying out of Jews from much of Europe began already, in a small way, as early as the mid 1880s with the beginning of emigration to America; intra-European Jewish westward migration spiked with WWI continued through the 1930s. The process of 'dissolution of Eastern European Jewry' (See the work of Dr. Sanning) was disrupted by the German government's mass internment of Jews for racial-political reasons during the war, then sped up again from 1945 into the 1950s. Census records from, e.g., Poland, tend to corroborate that the dissolution was not just underway, but very far advanced, before the German invasion. Those Jews were already 'disappeared.' In Germany's case, it is certiainly well established that the majority of German Jews had emigrated before WWII.

(2) Your question of "how many Jews were in (future-German-occupied regions of) Europe on August 31, 1939?" cannot really be answered because data collection was not perfect. Revisionists cite low estimates and Holocaust Promoters cite the highest estimates.

(3) Assimilationism was a strong trend among many European Jews from the late 19th century and into the mid-20th, before Zionism took over the Jewish political mind and the rise of the Jews in the mid to late 20th century. Before the rise of Zionism and the enormous prestige Jews today enjoy, many Jews posed as Christians or became Christians by conversion throughout Europe. This does not happen much anymore and is rarely even heard of today -- rather, the reverse is common. The daughter of the current President of the United States,converted to Judaism upon marrying her Jewish husband, and is raising some of the U.S. President's grandchildren Jewish. The daughter of the other candidate for President of the U.S. in the 2016 election also has a daughter married to a Jew. But this is tangential. We have many, many documented cases of Jews who abandoned or concealed their Jewish identity, in the early to mid 20th century, and lived out their lives under their re-created identities. Some later 'recovered' their Jewish identities in later life, or their children did (ex.: Madeleine Albright, John Kerry), but many never did. Are these to be counted as Jews? Yes or no? They will be among your 'disappeared.'

(4) If, in 1913, some town in Poland had 5,000 Jews, and by 1963, fifty years and =two generations later, it had only a few hundred Jews with a high average age, then we have to ask where the Jews went. Holocaust Indoctrination has taught us to not think critically about this at all: They were all killed! A handful of survivors who escaped, a miracle from God. Those who survived came back to their old lives in now-communist states in a divided Europe, and, ambitionless, continued on as before. Holocaust Detox equips us with more critical thinking skills to analyze this question, namely: Mobility. The Jews could, and did (as can be demonstrated), move on to better opportunities, and did so almost as a rule and not as an exception in those years.

[Hegwood]

Mr. Sweeny

You admit to knowing very little about the holocaust yet you believe it happened. So you believe it happened but you're not too sure of what it is.

I assume that it is the alleged attempt by the National Socialists government of Germany to kill all jews resulting in the murder of 6 million of them. You say you believe this because were told it happened. Since, this accusation is very nebulous, your first question should be "where, how, and when did these alleged murders take place?". (Actually, you did not even say they were murdered you said they "disappeared". If you stick with trying to learn the truth about the holocaust story you will ultimately learn that making a human being disappear is much, much more difficult than just killing one.)

This forum is not set up to provide a short concise description of where, how, and when, the alleged holocaust took place. You will have to find that information on your own. My suggestion is that you go to one of the so called holocaust education sites USHMM or Yad Vashem and learn these "where, how, and when's". Then try to tabulate the number of murdered jews in a simple chart that gives the names of the death camps or action, the number of jews killed in that camp or by that action, and how they were killed. With that information you can go to the CODOH main site and find hundreds of well researched books and papers on the various aspects of holocaust story. You will then be well informed and able to discuss the holocaust with anyone on this forum.

The first part of your education, learning the basic holocaust story, should be simple. One that these sites should have already created this summary and have it displayed as the basis for the institution's existence and continuing research. But I don't think you will find it that simple. These sites are not going to make it easy for you. I believe this is intentional. Despite being physically impossible the holocaust endures because it is really a very ill defined, foggy story.

Hegwood

[borjastick]

The first thing you are discovering is that the holocaust is a big story, multi faceted and complicated. But if you have the interest and stamina to continue your research you will find it to be a very rewarding escapade. It might change you in ways you didn't see coming, most for the good by the way, but you will become a more informed and well rounded person. That's what I think happened to me anyway.

Jews were leaving Germany from very early in Hitler's incumbency. They knew that things might get difficult for them so they left, with the blessing of the jewish organisations that helped them. They left for Palestine, US, Canada, UK. It is said that about 2/3rds of jews in Germany left before the war started. The problem is that the way the holocaust narrative works is that they were then counted as victims after the war, simply because they weren't there after the music stopped.

My advice is to get stuck in to the main fixed (stickies) topics at the top of the page and then read some of the main topics that have multiple responses and those that are important.

The bottom line, as already shown in replies above, is that the claims of mass murder, gas chambers, extermination theories and the like have no basis in truth, evidence or science.

Also stop thinking that we must start with six million and work back to find out where they went. Read my sign off, that says it all really...

[Mortimer]

I'm aware that this is a specialist website and that I don't share comparable knowledge with you. I go on lots of forums on a wide variety of subjects and I find that I can be derided because I don't know what's seen as the basics of the subject. Even so I carry on if I'm interested. That's how I learn.
I've read a fair bit about the 2nd World War but not really too much about the holocaust. I'd like to come on here and ask questions that I guess you would think were simplistic. I can look on here and see detailed discussions about the construction of the gas chambers at Treblinka or something and feel out of my depth.
My view is that the holocaust happened because that's what I've always been taught. I know that just as I know that Henry VIII had 6 wives. If someone was to come along with a convincing arguement as to why it wasn't true I'd think differently. I'm a reasonable person and would be interested in any argument that would change my mind.
So I'd appreciate it if you'd indulge me.
So questions, how many jews were in Europe before the 2nd world war and how many were there after? The ones that disappeared, where did they go?

Thanks.

Hello Sweeney,
Just ask yourself if the holocaust is true then why is it against the law in over a dozen countries to question it ? Why does the holocaust need special laws to protect it from criticism ? In these countries you can say you don't believe in God and nothing will happen. Yet if you say the holocaust isn't true you go to jail. Don't you think that is strange ?
http://codoh.com/library/document/2599/
http://codoh.com/library/document/688/
http://codoh.com/library/document/335/

[Hektor]

The first thing you are discovering is that the holocaust is a big story, multi faceted and complicated. But if you have the interest and stamina to continue your research you will find it to be a very rewarding escapade. It might change you in ways you didn't see coming, most for the good by the way, but you will become a more informed and well rounded person. That's what I think happened to me anyway.

It's also sold as a package-deal, as a bait and switch, if you want.
They lump measures regarding Jews, ghettos, camps, etc. together with alleged homicidal gassings and plans to exterminate Jews.
For Revisionists only the later are what is in dispute.

Jews were leaving Germany from very early in Hitler's incumbency. They knew that things might get difficult for them so they left, with the blessing of the jewish organisations that helped them. They left for Palestine, US, Canada, UK. It is said that about 2/3rds of jews in Germany left before the war started. The problem is that the way the holocaust narrative works is that they were then counted as victims after the war, simply because they weren't there after the music stopped.
...

And a number of other countries. What is ignored is that Jews, especially Polish Jews, did migrate to Germany in that period, while there was no net growth.

The "where did they go" argument is a straw being grasped by those that can't prove the allegations otherwise. Does one really have to prove the whereabouts of any person that moved elsewhere in order to prove that person wasn't 'gassed'? I think not. Far more interesting would be the question that, if Jews didn't move elsewhere and were killed, what happened to the corpses and remains? Can they show us respective mass graves or any other corresponding traces? No, they can't - What they show us is perfectly in line with the Revisionist POV.

[Sweeney]

Hi everyone and thanks for your replies. Since I posted I've slept and then been to work so have just read them now. I was wondering what kind of answers I'd get. Where I said I don't know much about the holocaust but I believe it happened, I was saying that in the way I believe in the moon landings. It's a belief founded on the availiable knowledge - a sort of Occam's Razor approach.
I know that on here I'm the equivalent of someone riding a bicycle with stabilisers on here but the quality of the posts in response shows that my question has been taken seriously. Thanks for that. Only one person suggested that I needed to be primed with knowledge before posting in here. I don't get that. I will do some reading on here though.
I can see how the holocaust subject is conventionally looked at from a reverse viewpoint. Surely in a murder investigation you need to have a corpse first. I can see that. I also have always thought that holocaust denial being a crime was wrong and also quite suspicious.
Even so the creation of a holocaust myth would seem to be such a massive con-trick to play. Who would be in on it? When did it start? And why? I know these are simple questions but I think these general, basic questions might be of value to everyone.
Anyway, thanks.

[Moderator]

Sweeney:
You're asking a lot of questions in one thread. Please read the guidelines which you agreed to.
Thanks, M1

[Hektor]

Hi everyone and thanks for your replies. Since I posted I've slept and then been to work so have just read them now. I was wondering what kind of answers I'd get. Where I said I don't know much about the holocaust but I believe it happened, I was saying that in the way I believe in the moon landings. It's a belief founded on the availiable knowledge - a sort of Occam's Razor approach.
I know that on here I'm the equivalent of someone riding a bicycle with stabilisers on here but the quality of the posts in response shows that my question has been taken seriously. Thanks for that. Only one person suggested that I needed to be primed with knowledge before posting in here. I don't get that. I will do some reading on here though.
I can see how the holocaust subject is conventionally looked at from a reverse viewpoint. Surely in a murder investigation you need to have a corpse first. I can see that. I also have always thought that holocaust denial being a crime was wrong and also quite suspicious.
Even so the creation of a holocaust myth would seem to be such a massive con-trick to play. Who would be in on it? When did it start? And why? I know these are simple questions but I think these general, basic questions might be of value to everyone.
Anyway, thanks.

The question you are asking is in short "How did the Holocaust Narrative emerge". Indeed a subject for another thread. The fact of so many displaced person including a lot of Jews was for sure a contributing factor to make the Holocaust Narrative believable to people.

[Revisionist]

Where I said I don't know much about the holocaust but I believe it happened, I was saying that in the way I believe in the moon landings. It's a belief founded on the availiable knowledge - a sort of Occam's Razor approach.

Most people don't know about the basics of the holocaust. It's just eye witness testemonies which emerged under dubios circumstances. No orders from Hitler or Himmler ever found. The blueprints of crematories do not suggest the usage of gassings.

This classical documentary deals only with Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec but gives you an essential understanding of the foundation of the Holocaust:
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=1001
I suggest watching it in parts, not everything once. It is about 4 hours long, but you deal here with a big topic.

If you love reading more try this:
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=15
Easy to read for beginners, you also get the basics known. It sums up the revisionist view.

[Dresden]

Sweeney:

Hear is an article that was just posted a few hours ago by John Wear.
It discusses "where they went", and answers a few of your other questions.
It is geared for rational people, like most Revisionist works.
It is evidence based and it is a quick read ..... not counting all the sources:

Nazi’s Defied Laws of Nature To Gas Millions & Vanish The Bodies! True!

https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017/09/ ... dies-true/

Excerpt:

What Happened to Jews Sent to the Aktion Reinhardt Camps?

Establishment historians state that all Jews sent to the Aktion Reinhardt camps of Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor were exterminated. It is claimed that a handful of strong young Jews were temporarily spared to keep the camps running. All other Jews sent to the Aktion Reinhardt camps were immediately gassed upon arrival without registration.[1]

In his book Holocaust, historian Peter Longerich states that 1,274,166 Jews had been killed in the Aktion Reinhardt camps by the end of 1942. Longerich bases his statement on the fact that the Höfle telegram shows that this many Jews had been sent by then to the Aktion Reinhardt camps. Longerich assumes that every Jew sent to the Aktion Reinhardt camps was murdered.[2]

This article will show that the Aktion Reinhardt camps were actually transit camps rather than extermination camps.