How many people fit in a 'cattle car'?

[ginger]

The verdict of the Oskar Groning trial has been upheld on appeal. In the reports they reiterate his crime - he was part of the murdering of 300,000 Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz in the summer of 1944. They say 425,000 Hungarian Jews were transported to Auschwitz in the space of 2 months and murdered. They say there were 137 transports and the train had 14 cattle cars full of people. In my reading about emigration out of Eastern Europe from the latter 1800's to the present, the author stated that one cattle car could hold 8 horses or 32 people. 32 people X 14 cattle cars = 448 people, or roughly 500 people. 500 people X 137 transports = roughly 70,000 people. So if the reports of 137 transports and 14 cattle cars per train and 32 people in a cattle car are right, the 425,000 figure is impossibly large.

Does anyone have different figures? - does anyone know how many people fit in a cattle car? I believe the numbers of people killed in Nazi crimes is highly exaggerated.

[cold beer]

This an excellent argument provided that adequate citation can be attached.
A court transcript of witness testimony or a reference to it from a non-revisionist source for example.
From there the argument can be developed by citing the dimensions of a typical freight car.
And with emphasizing the huge volume of cargo survivors claim they brought to Auschwitz.

[Hannover]

The verdict of the Oskar Groning trial has been upheld on appeal. In the reports they reiterate his crime - he was part of the murdering of 300,000 Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz in the summer of 1944. They say 425,000 Hungarian Jews were transported to Auschwitz in the space of 2 months and murdered.

Yet the detailed Allied aerial photos of Auschwitz / Birkenau from that period show no such "murdering of 300,000 Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz in the summer of 1944".

Why?

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.

[cold beer]

Not only do we have the passenger capacity deminished by the cargo that was brought to the camp(s), we also have the soldiers who were said to be guarding the trains to prevent escapes. If the detainees suffered through a journey that typically took days as they have testified, then guarding the train would require enough soldiers to rotate by shift.
Conservatively speaking, one train car would need to be reserved for the guards.

This is the type of thread that fits in perfectly with the claim that revisionists are in the bad habit of attacking the holocaust narrative with facts and figures.

[Moderator]

cold beer, you stated:

This is the type of thread that fits in perfectly with the claim that revisionists are in the bad habit of attacking the holocaust narrative with facts and figures.

For you:

These Holocaust deniers are very slick people. They justify everything they say with facts and figures."

- Steven Some, Chairman of the New Jersey Commission on Holocaust Education, Newark Star-Ledger, 23 Oct. 1996, p 15.

M1

[ginger]

Thanks cold beer - the story has been in the news. On November 28, Deutsche Welle reported on Groning's loss of his appeal. They reiterated that Groning aided in the murder of 300,000 people at Auschwitz in the summer of 1944. I got the reports of 425,000 people and 137 transports from Wikipedia citing Der Zeit. As for the number of people in a cattle car, that comes from a 2016 book, The Great Departure, by Tara Zahra, which is about emigration out of Eastern Europe from the late 1800's to the present. In a chapter on Travel Agents she writes that Germany erected new delousing and disinfection stations at her borders with Russian and Austria-Hungary, and that Russians traveled in cattle cars, large enough for 8 horses or 32 people.

[Hannover]

From what I have seen most of these 'cattle cars' were actually passenger cars & box cars.
But it's more dramatic to label them 'cattle cars'.





- Hannover

The '6,000,000 Jews' lie and the laughing Mexican:

Mirrors: https://altcensored.com/watch?v=nozsqxjxchs | https://www.bitchute.com/video/dOqSD6wLOD56/

[onetruth]

From what I have seen most of these 'cattle cars' were actually passenger cars & box cars.
But it's more dramatic to label them 'cattle cars'.

Where exactly did you " see " that the " majority " where regular train. ? Simply not true.



~

[Hannover]

From what I have seen most of these 'cattle cars' were actually passenger cars & box cars.
But it's more dramatic to label them 'cattle cars'.

Where exactly did you " see " that the " majority " where regular train. ? Simply not true.

The pictures that I have seen usually depict passenger cars or standard box cars.
i.e.:
https://www.google.com/search?q=jewish+ ... sQ_AUIBigB

Can you show us otherwise?

These are cattle cars:




These are not:





- Hannover

"Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish "holocaust" and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions—while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur—gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the "survivors"? Because it "dishonors the dead"? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble."

- Gerard Menuhin / righteous Revisionist Jew, son of famous violinist

[onetruth]

From what I have seen most of these 'cattle cars' were actually passenger cars & box cars.
But it's more dramatic to label them 'cattle cars'.

Where exactly did you " see " that the " majority " where regular train. ? Simply not true.

The pictures that I have seen usually depict passenger cars or standard box cars.

i.e.:
https://www.google.com/search?q=jewish+ ... sQ_AUIBigB

This is a cattle car:


Can you show us otherwise?

You can not conclude from a few pictures what the majority of trains were , you are simply twisting the reality to suit your needs.

If anything can be concluded from the link you provided is that the majority of trains where indeed cattle carts , unless you suffer from " willful " blindness.

99% of survivors described being cramped ans locked in those cattle carts.

~

[Hannover]

onetruth:

You can not conclude from a few pictures what the majority of trains were , you are simply twisting the reality to suit your needs.

If anything can be concluded from the link you provided is that the majority of trains were indeed cattle carts , unless you suffer from " willful " blindness.

99% of survivors described being cramped and locked in those cattle carts.

Oh please, I've made conclusions from what I see. Heretofore most of these deportation train cars were either regular passenger cars or standard box cars, not the promoted 'cattle cars'. I note that you cannot show otherwise, your problem, not mine.

You contradict yourself as usual.
You say that " You can not conclude from a few pictures what the majority of trains were". Yet you, being special, curiously conclude that the pictures show mostly cattle cars, which they do not.

Do not confuse standard box cars with cattle cars, very different, as I have shown.

Yes, these are your same "survivors" who:

- bathed with Jewish soap
- witnessed lampshades made of human skin
- witnessed gassings which did / could not happen
- witnessed impossible flames belching from crematory chimneys
- swallowed their diamonds everyday and pooped them out each night
- witnessed delay action gassings which allowed those gassed to walk to their graves
- breathed through keyholes to prevent being gassed
- skimmed off boiling human fat from open-air cremation fires
- witnessed killings in vacuum chamber or with steam or chlorine gas
- witnessed gas chambers on wheels in Treblinka, which dumped victims directly into burning pits
- witnessed SS bicycle races in the gas chamber of Birkenau
- said Zyklon gas went into the gas chambers of Auschwitz through shower heads or from steel bottles
- witnessed mummified human thumbs used as light switches
- leaped over 9 foot fences and killed the guards
- witnessed mass graves expelling geysers of blood
- witnessed electrical conveyor-belt executions

The list goes on & on from these laughable "$urvivors".

You once again shoot yourself in the foot by citing "survivors" which according to the storyline should not exist since the storyline alleges that 'the Germans tried to kill every Jew they could get their hands on', yet there are gazillions of "$urvivors".

Hey, how about the countless number of people worldwide who witnessed & 'survived' witchcraft & sorcery? Thousands gave testimony about it in courts of law. They must be believed, right?

You sir, are in willful denial of what is right in front of your eyes.
You like to nibble at the edges in hopes of a small victory, which isn't forthcoming.
Yet you ignore the really big issues which cut to the chase and utterly debunk the absurd '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers'.

- I challenge you to start a thread on a single survivor who you find to be a credible witness to the alleged gassing of Jews, just one.
Tell us what they claim and why you find them credible. Here's your big chance.

- I challenge you to start a thread and tell us how the 'gas chambers' supposedly worked.

- I challenge you to start a thread and show us excavated enormous mass graves. Recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, or 250,000 at Sobibor. After all, Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.

Fish or cut bait, onetruth.

Hannover

The '6,000,000 Jews' lie and the laughing Mexican:



Dare to examine the absurd & laughable 'holocaust' storyline rationally, logically, scientifically and it falls apart like the house-of-cards that it is.

[borjastick]

onetruth aims to derail the core argument here by disputing not only what a cattle car is but also by not providing proof that there were very few normal train carriages used, which by any consideration would be more plentiful and available.

The box car things that he shows and no one is claiming weren't used are not very big. The semantics start when the term cattle car is used for full effect. They may be suitable for animals but also cargo and in this case sometimes used for people transport.

So let's stick to the calculations, which is the subject here,

Let's say 35 people per box car or passenger car x 14 carriages x 137 transports gives us 67130 total.

Let's argue about the reality of the numbers that could have been sent there in such transports not whether a calls it a box car and b doesn't.

What we don't have is anything like hundreds of thousands of people being sent there and no proof of mass murder once they were there.

[Hannover]

Unless Germans civilians and the Wehrmacht were vegetarian it's only logical to think that real cattle cars were needed for transporting real cattle.
IOW, the 'Jews in cattle cars' is largely a canard, a pity play meant to service the '6M' nonsense.

- Hannover

So called "holocaust eyewitnesses" making absurd, impossible, and contradictory claims is not the exception, but the rule.

[onetruth]

onetruth:

You can not conclude from a few pictures what the majority of trains were , you are simply twisting the reality to suit your needs.

If anything can be concluded from the link you provided is that the majority of trains were indeed cattle carts , unless you suffer from " willful " blindness.

99% of survivors described being cramped and locked in those cattle carts.

Oh please, I've made conclusions from what I see. Heretofore most of these deportation train cars were either regular passenger cars or standard box cars, not the promoted 'cattle cars'. I note that you cannot show otherwise, your problem, not mine.

You contradict yourself as usual.
You say that " You can not conclude from a few pictures what the majority of trains were". Yet you, being special, curiously conclude that the pictures show mostly cattle cars, which they do not.

Do not confuse standard box cars with cattle cars, very different, as I have shown.

Yes, these are your same "survivors" who:

- bathed with Jewish soap
- witnessed lampshades made of human skin
- witnessed gassings which did / could not happen
- witnessed impossible flames belching from crematory chimneys
- swallowed their diamonds everyday and pooped them out each night
- witnessed delay action gassings which allowed those gassed to walk to their graves
- breathed through keyholes to prevent being gassed
- skimmed off boiling human fat from open-air cremation fires
- witnessed killings in vacuum chamber or with steam or chlorine gas
- witnessed gas chambers on wheels in Treblinka, which dumped victims directly into burning pits
- witnessed SS bicycle races in the gas chamber of Birkenau
- said Zyklon gas went into the gas chambers of Auschwitz through shower heads or from steel bottles
- witnessed mummified human thumbs used as light switches
- leaped over 9 foot fences and killed the guards
- witnessed mass graves expelling geysers of blood
- witnessed electrical conveyor-belt executions

The list goes on & on from these laughable "$urvivors".

You once again shoot yourself in the foot by citing "survivors" which according to the storyline should not exist since the storyline alleges that 'the Germans tried to kill every Jew they could get their hands on', yet there are gazillions of "$urvivors".

Hey, how about the countless number of people worldwide who witnessed & 'survived' witchcraft & sorcery? Thousands gave testimony about it in courts of law. They must be believed, right?

I fail to see the difference you try to portray between box carts to cattle carts . Your clear intention is portray a picture that there was an like some normal passenger trip on a train, where in fact it was not.

Fact is that those box carts or cattle carts where people where forced into where locked from the outside , they had but a small barbed window for air , the passengers included the elderly and babies that where locked in those carts sometimes for days , they had no toilets , no food and no water. Many of the very young, the old and the sick would die because of the inhumane conditions during the journey.

Trying to describe this journey as something normal has nothing to do with reality.

Your may choose to ignore thousands of witness accounts , i do not. Same as you ignore all the documents that prove you wrong .

Sorry i do not think it possible that all the witnesses are lying or that all the documents are fake. No historian can ignore all that. To do so is a sin to reality and to the truth.


~

[Atigun]

So, onetruth morphs boxcars into cattle cars. Cattle cars have slatted sides and I have NEVER seen a photo of people being loaded into or unloaded from cattle cars. The French had a boxcar called the "forty and eight," usually written "40 and 8" or "40&8." Here is the Wiki on the 40&8. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-and-eights There's lots of survivor accounts of traveling in "cattle cars" but only photos of passenger cars and 40&8 bpxcars. Perhaps onetruth can locate a photo of people traveling in or being loaded/unloaded from a cattle car.

quote added by Moderator:

Between 1940 and 1944 occupying German forces used Forty-and-eights to transport troops, POWs, horses, freight, and civilian prisoners to concentration camps.