Does the 6,000,000 number come from Judaism?

[Cloud]

So I went to nafcash.com and I ran into this quote at the bottom:

“Jewish prophecies in the Torah require that 6 million Jews must ‘vanish’ before the state of Israel can be formed. ‘You shall return minus 6 million.’ That's why Tom Segev, an Israeli historian, declared that the ‘sacred 6 million’ is an attempt to transform the holocaust story into state religion… Those six million, according to prophecy, had to disappear in ‘burning ovens,’ which the judicial version of the holocaust now authenticates… ‘Without the Holocaust, there would be no Jewish State.’”

I have read The First Holocaust from vho.org and noticed that several of the numbers that appear in the newspaper articles in the book are divisible by six, and that number shows up often in Judaism. I also read on another forum that rabbinic authorities use the number 600,000 and multiply it by a whole number in order to arrive at a figure for dead Jews in a Shoah event.

Does anyone here know a lot about Judaism and can determine if there is any truth to all of this? Perhaps you can cite the relevant passages from Jewish religious texts and follow up with interpretations.

[Hemicuda]

That's a great question--and the answer is yes; the claims of mass extermination are a central theme in Talmudic and Kabbalistic Judasim. For example, Gittin 57b claims that four billion Jews were killed by the Romans in the city of Bethar. Gittin 58a claims that 16 million Jewish children were wrapped in scrolls and burned alive by the Romans. (source: Soncino Talmud).

Many Talmudic rabbis believe that Adolph Hitler was an "avenging angel" who sacrificed 6 million non-believing Jews so that the "true" Talmudic Jews could take power over the world. See Michael A. Hoffman's excellent works "Judaism Discovered" and "Judaism's Strange Gods" for more on the mystical role that the Nazis played in Talmudic myth.

The Talmudists are obsessed with the number 6 or the "vav". The Holocaust Memorial in Washington, D.C. was designed using multiples of 6. Instead of explaining all of it here, I will refer you to a couple good articles on the subject:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090406172 ... illion.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20100527160 ... o_myth.htm

[Pappy Yokum]

In numerology the number 6 is considered a "perfect number." This is because it is easy to use and is the sum of the first three prime numbers: 1+2+3. It is also the multiple of those numbers: 1X2X3. I once asked a half Jewish friend what was up with Judaism and the number 6? She said she didn't know, but would ask. The answer she came back with is the number six is the number for man. In the creation story the world was created in six days and that man was created on the sixth day. God created the world in six days because six is a perfect number and that man was created on the sixth day in God's image because God is also perfect.

The Mogan David has six points and is two triangles: one points up and the other down. It is a symbol of the belief that as it is above, so it is below. This is an idea that goes back to at least ancient Egypt where monuments and temples were aligned with the stars and other heavenly bodies. It is also reflected in the Lord's prayer: "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

So, yes. The 6 million number is symbolic of the perfect sacrifice. A holocaust means a burnt offering. It does come from Judaism.

[Hemicuda]

While it's true what Pappy Yokum states--that, according to certain Judaics, 6 is a perfect number and therefore represents man--it should be kept also in mind that when Talmudic jews refer to "man" or "men", they are referring only to Jews themselves. Non-Jews or Gentiles are not considered "man" or part of "mankind", so when you hear rabbis talk about universal morals of Judaism for "all men", they are playing a clever rhetorical trick. In their hearts, they know they are speaking only of other Jews, not Gentiles, who are merely "beasts of the field".

When Elie Wiesel gave a lecture on 9-14-06 in New York City entitled "And Thou Shalt Love They Neighbor: Tolerance in the Talmud," he and his fellow Talmudists were conveying a secret truth to one another--that the "neighbor" they are truly talking about applies only to another Jew. Very clever dissimulation.

According to the Talmud, every Jewish soul is represented by a letter in the Torah. There are 600,000 letters in the Torah, according to Zohar Chadash to Shir HaShirim. According to Rabbi Saadya Grama's "Jewish Superiority and the Question of Exile"... "The Jew by his source and in his very essence is entirely good. The goy, by his source and in his very essence, is completely evil." (as quoted in Hoffman's "Judaism Discovered").

Thus, the "goy" were not created on the 6th Day, rather only the Jews themselves were because only they are "man". By comparison, this all makes the Nazi racial ideology seem incredibly politically-correct, inclusive, and tolerant.

[Karl Radl]

This is difficult to assert. I know quite a lot about Judaism as a result of my interest in jewish history (particularly the theories about anti-Semitism), but the '6,000,000' does not come directly from the Talmud (which one? Babylonian: I presume?). You see the '6,000,000' number has two potentially sources as I understand it: population statistics or the rabbinical concept of the Guzma ('exaggeration'). Both arguments are largely conjectural unfortunately since as far as I know there has been no clear evidence as from whence the early '6,000,000' claims (they date as early as 1881/1882, possibly earlier, if memory serves) took their number. It is one of those underresearched, but vital, areas that one occasionally finds in any branch of scholarly inquiry.

Now the population argument is that it was asserted (I've never found an exact source for this) that there were roughly 6,000,000 jews living in the Russian Empire in the 1880s (or possibly just the Pale of Settlement). It needs to be remembered that this has been tabulated using religious criteria so when a jew converts to Christianity, be it Catholic or one of the Orthodoxies, then he or she is no longer reckoned to be a jew. I am not sure about jewish atheists, but I presume the Russian authorities still classified them as jews given their general association of atheism with satanism (i.e. opposition to and/or denial of Christianity). Anyway: so according to this argument, which is conjectural as far as I know, there were 6,000,000 jews, i.e. followers of Judaism, in Imperial Russia at this time hence the claim.

Now in the Judaism argument the concept of the 'Guzma' comes of importance. The 'Guzma' is a rabbinical concept, which is used to express the scale of a catastrophe ('shoah'), i.e. the number of jews who have suffered and/or died, in terms related to the tales of the Written Torah. Now the 'Guzma' relies on the Talmud Bavli (I forget the precise citations as the thing is huge) in so far as it calculates the extent of a 'shoah' by taking the number of jews the Bavli says came out of Egypt with Moses in the Torah (600,000) and then multiplies it by a number to express how serious and awful a 'shoah' the event is (from what I've read usually 1 to 10 given that jewish audiences became less accepting of insane figures at least as early as the 19th century). Thus 600,000 x 10 = 6,000,000 (i.e a truly biblical shoah). So in this argument we have rabbis explaining the scale of a 'shoah', which they cannot know, by using the concept of the 'Guzma' to create a number which can then be passed along to other rabbis around the world as a representation of the scale of the 'shoah' which has occurred or is occurring: hence the '6,000,000' claim.

Both arguments certainly have some truth to them and it is, in my opinion, probable that both had a hand in creating the '6,000,000' as a means of explaining the scale of the 'pogroms' (localised anti-Semitic riots would be far more accurate as they weren't government sponsored despite the still common assertion made on the basis of Simon Dubnow's work in the 1930s). However in the context of the 'caust: I think we have to suggest that the latter is of far more importance than the former in terms of influence as the former would have changed considerably by 1941-1945, while the latter was maintained in Judaism.

If you go looking for the concept of the 'Guzma' and other associated concepts: you will probably have a hard time finding them. I didn't even know they existed until I stumbled across a reference to them and another jewish custom (Lashon Hakmah ['The Language of the Wise']) in an obscure 1929 translation and explanation of the 'Tales of Rabbah-bar-bar-Hannah' by J. D. Eisenstein, in which he mentions and explains it in passing in order to explain one of Rabbah-bar-bar-Hannah's veiled stories.

The numerology arguments you should really leave out as these are from jewish mysticism (the most famous example of which is the Zohar) and operate as a different, sometimes opposing, tradition to the halakah and aggadah of the Mishnah and the two Talmuds (the Talmudists and the Kabbalists have and still do spend a lot of time fighting each other on various points of Judaism). In essence arguing the '6,000,000' comes from the numerology arguments is absurd, because most rabbis are not kabbalists or mystics [hence place little value in numerology] and certainly jewish mysticism had little to no impact on the orthodox and secular jews (I include the conservative and reform jews as secular) who were at this time (and still are) the mainstay of Judaism and the jewish community. Thus I cannot see how you can maintain that jews created a '6,000,000' figure out of special regard for the number '6' as it would have been near impossible to spread such a number as the ultra-Orthodox are not known for their friendliness and social networking amongst non-ultra-Orthodox jews.

Slightly off-topic (I apologise): don't use Hoffman on Judaism. He isn't a good source and he has a long history of distorting (and even simply making up) things about Judaism and jews in general (for example there is a G.I. Joe character, Dragonsky, listed as a jew in his 'Judaic Communists' article, which gets routinely quoted on anti-Semitic sites and by anti-Semites in general). Hoffman is largely plagiarising (in terms of arguments, which he then tries to try and add modern sources to support even if reading the literature proves them to be bogus [for example the 'raping of three year old girls', which he probably got from reading August Roehling's, 1885 [I think], 'Der Talmudjude' or the doubled [in size and content] French translation and addition by one of Drumont's associates]) Johann Andreas Eisenmenger's 1700 'Entdecktes Judenthum' (Judaism Uncovered), who, unlike Hoffman, actually spoke Hebrew (as far as I know Hoffman doesn't speak Hebrew or Yiddish despite citing sources in both languages) and was an expert in his subject [which Hoffman despite being well read and a quote farmer isn't by any measure]. It is worth picking up the English translation of Eisenmenger (which Hoffman has recently reprinted and charges an outrageous $200 for [you can pick up an original German first ed. for $1700-2000]) rather than buying Hoffman's 'Judaism Discovered' or 'Judaism's Strange God's'.

[Karl Radl]

I have just read Dalton's response to Mathis and Roberto, which includes a point about the '6,000,000' number in which they allege it is 'cherry-picking'. Dalton's response is adequate, but I'd just like to point out that the '6,000,000' number was echoed by prominent authorities (Chief Rabbi of Britain Hertz for one) before and during World War I [Hertz doesn't include the other alledged numbers and for this Hertz quotes the equally eminent Lucien Wolf], which enlarges on Dalton's point slightly.

Even if it wasn't the primary number used, which to me it seems to have been, that still doesn't answer the point in that here you have major jewish authorities, not just the odd insignificant rabbi or delusional jew, using and reprinting this 6,000,000 number as a jewish suffering/casualty figure for well over thirty years and over sixty years before it became 'holocaust' gospel (purported and popularised by those who would have been intimately familiar with the previous '6,000,000' claim). Coincidence? I very much doubt it. To argue coincidence you'd have to do an awful lot of mental gymnastics, but to be honest that is nothing new in either holocaustian or conspiracy theory literature (but that's just opinion).

[Drew J]

Yes, the six million number is indeed kabbalistic. I have proven such on this board.

The First Six Million - WHY THEY CHOSE THE NUMBER SIX
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5642

[dejesus]

Cloud:

So I went to nafcash.com and I ran into this quote at the bottom:

Here is whole epilogue found at the bottom of the NAFH's site ( http://www.nafcash.com/ )

EPILOGUE

Why is it important for you to know the facts about these criminally fraudulent historical lies and archaeological hoaxes?

Bottom line: FREEDOM OF SPEECH. In order to fully understand the importance of this issue, it’s imperative that you understand why the jews maliciously define exposing the truth about the holocaust as a “hate crime” and are working frantically to undermine the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and ARTICLE 19 to the U.N. Charter with their draconian “holocaust denial” laws, thereby stifling free speech and freedom of expression. You must understand that their ultimate goal is to make it illegal for ANYONE - ANYWHERE to question the veracity of their fraudulent, self-serving “sacred six million” myth - including the United States. Remember - Truth does not fear investigation! - So what are the draconian “holocaust denial” laws really for?

You must also understand that “the holocaust” is based on JEWISH MYTHOLOGY and the ILLEGITIMATE state of Israel literally owes its existence to the grossly exaggerated holocaust story. The sacred six million myth is utterly dependent upon the fraudulent version of the final solution and the final solution canard is utterly dependent upon the orthodox version of the “pure extermination centers” and the criminally fraudulent archaeological hoaxes that are shamelessly being used to buttress the HISTORICAL LIES. If the holocaust / sacred six million prophecy hadn’t allegedly been fulfilled, then the rebirth of the state of Israel could not have been legitimate in the eyes of the zionists. And without the creation of Israel, there could be no building of the third temple on the mount. And without the building of the third temple, there could be no coming of the jewish messiah or the second coming of Jesus.

In order to fully understand the RELIGIOUS significance of the holocaust / sacred six million figure, you must understand its fundamental significance to events in the world today. The following articles will give you a basic understanding of how the grossly exaggerated holocaust story has been maliciously used to justify the U.S. governments unfailing support of Israel’s BRUTAL SUBJUGATION of the Palestinians and why it is directly related to the whole end times / rapture / apocalypse / armageddon / cult of Israel nonsense. To better understand this incontrovertible fact, please read the following anthology:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20:

“jewish prophecies require that 6 million jews must ‘vanish’ before the state of Israel can be formed. ‘You shall return minus 6 million’… Those six million, according to prophecy, had to disappear in ‘burning ovens,’ which the judicial version of the holocaust now authenticates… ‘Without the holocaust, there would be no jewish State.’”


NOTE: Are you aware that the zionists have gotten laws passed in ten states – California, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Mississippi, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, Virginia and Washington, which mandate that these easily disprovable historical lies and criminally fraudulent archaeological hoaxes be taught to our children as “irrefutable historical fact?” (Laws that sanctify an “official” version of any historical event are the first step in criminalizing contradictory interpretations.) Every time a student is exposed to these lies, he’s being brainwashing with maliciously manufactured false history based on RELIGIOUS DOGMA and criminal fraud. And any educator who doesn’t understand the religious basis for the “sacred six million” lie shouldn’t even be allowed in a classroom.

If perhaps you think that this issue isn’t important to you personally, then ask yourself this: Why have the zionists gotten laws passed making it a “CRIME” in so many “fee democracies” for holocaust skeptics to reveal the truth that the actual number of jewish deaths during WW II was far less than the “sacred six million” lie, and why are the jews working so hard to make it illegal to reveal the truth about the holocaust IN THE U.S. AS WELL? It’s analogous to criminalizing the “denial” of the “fact” that the earth is six thousand years old! What would you think / say / do if it was mandated by law that your child be taught that it is an “irrefutable fact” that the earth is only six thousand years old? What would you think / say / do about a teacher who didn’t have the courage or character to speak the truth about such nonsense? Would you stand up to Christian fundamentalists who tried to foist their delusional “six thousand years old” lie onto you and your children via draconian “denial” laws? Then why won’t you stand up to the zionists who are doing the exact same thing with their religiously based “SACRED SIX MILLION” holocaust lie? If you don’t speak up now, then what’s happened in Europe and elsewhere is going to happen in the U.S. as well.

RECAP: So how does it feel to find out that you’ve been lied to your entire life? (And please understand that the malicious lies about the fraudulent “pure extermination centers” are only the beginning - what do you think you will discover if you investigate what really happened at the other camps?) Remember - all lies are told for a reason. Historical fabrications and exaggerations are told to alter your perceptions and create a false reality. (Those who control the past control the present.) If your beliefs are based on half-truths and lies (half-truths make the most convincing lies), then you are being maliciously misled by those who control the foundation of your reality - your “knowledge.” If your knowledge is not based on the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then your reality is simply the creation of what the zionist propagandists want it to be. False knowledge creates false reality.

Who benefits from your maliciously altered perceptions and resultant false reality?

This is the best collection of links I've ever found. If you haven't read them all, you are not informed.

[Ilikerealhistory]

In numerology the number 6 is considered a "perfect number." This is because it is easy to use and is the sum of the first three prime numbers: 1+2+3. It is also the multiple of those numbers: 1X2X3. I once asked a half Jewish friend what was up with Judaism and the number 6? She said she didn't know, but would ask. The answer she came back with is the number six is the number for man. In the creation story the world was created in six days and that man was created on the sixth day. God created the world in six days because six is a perfect number and that man was created on the sixth day in God's image because God is also perfect.

There are a lot of sixes in judaism. It would be interesting to know why, in the bible, the number of the beast (Satan) is 6-6-6. Another thing that is interesting is that D-Day was launched on June 6th, @ 6:30am. That's 6-6-6. I think the date and time of the Allied invasion was also chosen to coincide with the number six and the six million claimed dead.

[learning]

Not sure If this belongs here, if not... sorry. Thanks for the link to naf.cash. Being new to all of this information, I never thought that the holocaust was not true- but the evidence that I have been reading makes mre and more sense.

[joachim neander]

I'm afraid you over-interpret the "Jewish" side of the number 6.
It - and its multiples - already played an important role in ancient Babylonia. Think of the fact that the - Babylonian - year had 360 = 6x6x10 days, was divided in 12=2x6 months, the month in 10x6 days+nights, the day also in 2x6 hours as well as the night in 2x6 hours, that an hour had 10x6 minutes, a minute 10x6 seconds, that there were 2x6 zodiac signs, etc. We still use some of them today, only more precise measurements made that our year and our months have slightly differing numbers of days.
In the Bible, the number 12 (2x6) is the number of completeness - 12 tribes of Israel, 12 disciples of Jesus, and you will find still more examples. 6, in this context, is half of the total - so "6 million Jews perished in the Holocaust" means more or less "half of the Jewish population of Europe."

[jnovitz]

Goliath also had six fingers, so perhaps the 6 million figure is a suppressed guilt complex at murdering the big friendly giant?

[jheitwler]

For what it's worth, the New York Times noted that "The Hebrew National, a new Jewish journal published in London, gives the statistics of the Jews in the world. There are 6,000,000 Jews in the world, one-half of when live in Europe..." on October 31, 1869. You can access the article for free on the NYT archive website. Search for "6,000,000 Jews" and it'll pop up. I couldn't find any notice of when the Jewish population reached five million, or seven million, or eight million, etc. Seems that somebody's PR department felt that this was a significant milestone. Just sayin'

[Karl Radl]

I'm afraid you over-interpret the "Jewish" side of the number 6.
It - and its multiples - already played an important role in ancient Babylonia. Think of the fact that the - Babylonian - year had 360 = 6x6x10 days, was divided in 12=2x6 months, the month in 10x6 days+nights, the day also in 2x6 hours as well as the night in 2x6 hours, that an hour had 10x6 minutes, a minute 10x6 seconds, that there were 2x6 zodiac signs, etc. We still use some of them today, only more precise measurements made that our year and our months have slightly differing numbers of days.
In the Bible, the number 12 (2x6) is the number of completeness - 12 tribes of Israel, 12 disciples of Jesus, and you will find still more examples. 6, in this context, is half of the total - so "6 million Jews perished in the Holocaust" means more or less "half of the Jewish population of Europe."

Hmm you kind of sidestep the whole point of the argument via an attempted reduction to absurdity.

The point is that the figure 6,000,000 (as opposed to merely the number '6' as Kabbalistic numerology is rather more complex than the mere assignation of numerical values to Hebrew letters) has one of two origins as far as I can see. Either population statistics or the rabbinical concept of the guzma (i.e. n times 600,000 in order to express the scale of a 'shoah' [a slight paraphrase of the literal explanation of it given in pre-'Holocaust' jewish literature btw]). It has nothing particularly to do with the Kabbalah and numerology despite the vapid claims from people who believe the ilk of Michael Hoffman as said arguments tend to mix the Talmuds with the Kabbalah, which is like trying to mix the gnostic gospels with Aquinas' 'Summa Theologica' in order to form a cogent interpretation of Catholic doctrine on sin (i.e. superficially plausible but actually absurd). Personally; as I have said, I favour the guzma explanation not so much because I self-identify as an anti-Semite, but because one has to deal with the fact that the 6,000,000 was asserted in various forms for decades with very little change despite this being the period of the mass Ashkenazi migrations from Eastern Europe to Western Europe and North America.

No doubt somebody is going to now brandish some quote from the 1880s or something that uses a different figure, but that wouldn't attack my argument, but rather confirm it generally and/or specifically as far as I can see (e.g. that the population statistics didn't generate the common 6,000,000 claim about jewish suffering from the 1880s to the 1940s and that my inference that it had to come from something else with that something else more than likely being the 'guzma').

[Ilikerealhistory]

I'm afraid you over-interpret the "Jewish" side of the number 6.
It - and its multiples - already played an important role in ancient Babylonia.

I can believe that. Everything in judasim is taken from somewhere else. I have yet to find anything original in their history.