Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 1939

[Hektor]

I'd like to investigate the Polish atrocities against Germans before 1. September 1939. What are the facts in that matter. What documents and proof is there?

[Balsamo]

As usual :
- photographs made by the Germans
- An official investigation by the Wehrmacht
- confession by captured Poles (soldiers and civilians)
- Germans eye-witness

As usual as well
debate on the number of deaths : that goes from 100 (polish historians) to 415 (german historians) to 5500 (think that was the official german number in 1939) and even 60.000 according to some nuts like GermanicPower on Youtube...

Sounds familiar

[Hektor]

It seems figures from before 1.September 1939 and after this date are sometimes confused. Some of the literature deals with both jointly:
http://archive.org/details/Auswaertiges ... usamkeiten

Since the end of WW1 there was frequent violence against Germans in areas controlled by Poland. That someone has really taken up the effort to count incidents and evaluate the evidence, I have not seen yet. There was violence against other minorities as well like i.e. the Ukrainians.

Perhaps one should also look into the figure of German refugees from Poland, too.

[Hannover]

See here:
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/polish_atrocities.htm
Mostly shortly after 9/1/39, but has some pre-war info. and text of Hitler speech (Danzig, Sept. 19, 1939) elaborating on the pre-war terror against the German minority.
I also believe there were numerous, non-German newspapers which had information about the atrocities.

"Poland wants war with Germany and Germany will not be able to avoid it even if she wants to."
- Polish Marshal Rydz-Smigly as reported in the Daily Mail, August 6th, 1939)

And there is nothing in these claims against the Poles which are scientifically impossible, as are the claims within the 'holocaust' canon.

- H.

[Hektor]

That's the thing. The evidence was only investigated on a broader base after 01/09/1939. In fact mostly days or weeks after this. And that makes it a bit difficult to discriminate between pre- and post-invasion atrocities. I am especially interested in the former.

[Hannover]

This is informative:

.”under Polish pressure the Germans in the southern and eastern districts were subjected to oppressive treatment. On Aug. 19 1920 the Poles felt strong enough, indeed, to make an attempt to seize the country by force. On all sides bands of Poles, chiefly recruited from Congress Poland, usurped authority. A number of Germans were forcibly carried across the frontier into Poland, and many were killed. Several weeks elapsed before it was possible to quell this rising and restore order…It had been suggested by the Entente that non-resident Upper Silesians of the German Reich should vote outside Silesia, at Cologne. Germany protested against this, and her protest was recognized as valid by the Entente. In January 1921 the date of the plebiscite was fixed for March 20 1921.
An immediate revival took place in the use of terrorism by the Poles, especially in the districts of Rybnik, Pless, Kattowitz, and Beuthen. It reached its climax in the days preceding the plebiscite. Voters from other parts of the German Reich were frequently refused admission to the polls; sometimes they were maltreated and even in some instances murdered; and houses where outvoters were staying were set on fire… The day after the plebiscite the Polish excesses recommenced, and from that date onwards continued without interruption… Practically all the towns voted for Germany… the first days of May witnessed a new Polish insurrection which assumed far greater proportions than the former one. Korfanty had secretly raised a well-organized Polish force which was provided with arms and munition from across the border, and was reinforced by large bodies of men from Poland…
By June 20 the British troops had again occupied the larger towns, while the Poles had the upper hand in the rural districts. As a result of the difficulties in paying his men and providing them with food Korfanty now lost control over his followers. Independent bands were formed which plundered the villages, ill-treated the Germans, and murdered many of them.”

- 1922 Encyclopaedia Britannica, “SILESIA, UPPER”

This article appeared in the Polish newspaper Die Liga der Grossmacht in October, 1930:

A struggle between Poland and Germany is inevitable. We must prepare ourselves for it systematically. Our goal is a new Battle of Tannenberg. However, this time, a Tannenberg in the suburbs of Berlin. Prussia must be reconquered for Poland, and Prussia, indeed, as far as the River Spree. In a war with Germany there will be no prisoners…

“Tannenberg” refers to the Battle of Tannenberg in 1410 when a Polish army defeated the German Teutonic Knights. The article is full of many more anti-German remarks.

Also, Von Ribbentrop defended the attack of Poland by stating that between 1919-1939, one million Germans had been expelled from Polish territory accompanied by numerous atrocities, and that complaints to the World Court in The Hague and the League of Nations in Geneva had been ignored.

further reading:
the book: "Dokumente polnischer Grausamkeiten. Verbrechen an Deutschen 1919-1939 nach amtlichen Quellen" (Documentations of Polish Cruelties. Crimes Against Germans 1919-1939 According to Official Sources).



- Hannover

[Toshiro]

On 13 April, severe anti-German persecutions occurred on the Danzig border. The terrorist attacks on Germans rose throughout Poland after Germany began its efforts to improve relations. German consulates reported countless persecutions every day to Berlin. On 8 May, 300 ethnic Germans were expelled from Neutomischel County. The German theater was closed in Bromberg on 9 May. Two Germans were killed by Poles in Lodsch on 15 May. A Danzig citizen was killed by Poles in Kalthof on 21 May.

Goebbels' New Year's Address, December 31st, 1939

Except for some protests, there were no "atrocities" committed before September 1st.

[Hektor]

....Except for some protests, there were no "atrocities" committed before September 1st.

How would you know this? Because Goebbels doesn't mention more details in a speech?

[Toshiro]

How would you know this? Because Goebbels doesn't mention more details in a speech?

Yes. If there were any real "atrocities," he would have definitely mentioned them instead of a mere three deaths. And not just him, all their media would go nuts about it, which never happened.

You can argue that perhaps they didn't know about them yet, but then again, we apparently still don't. So, as it stands, they are as imaginary and made-up as any other Jewish mass murder, and thus, never happened.

[Hannover]

How would you know this? Because Goebbels doesn't mention more details in a speech?

Yes. If there were any real "atrocities," he would have definitely mentioned them instead of a mere three deaths. And not just him, all their media would go nuts about it, which never happened.

You can argue that perhaps they didn't know about them yet, but then again, we apparently still don't. So, as it stands, they are as imaginary and made-up as any other Jewish mass murder, and thus, never happened.

Citing a single Goebbels speech seems strained to me, he gave many speeches, and even in the one cited he does make note of three pre-war atrocities.
However, Von Ribbentrop (in complaints to the World Court in The Hague and the League of Nations in Geneva) actually did 'go nuts' and speak of rampant atrocities.
As did the Encyclopedia Britannica, no friend to Germans.
I don't know why all of that was ignored.

Also, published in English in 1940, this work by the von Ribbentrop's German Foreign Office:



and:

Of all the crimes of World War II, one never hears about the wholesale massacres that occurred in Poland just before the war. Thousands of German men, women and children were massacred in the most horrendous fashion by press-enraged mobs. Hitler decided to halt the slaughter and he rushed to the rescue. Young German boys, when captured by the Poles, were castrated.

- Leon Degrelle

and:

Since dawn today, we are shooting back ...

- A. Hitler

Thanks, Hannover

[Toshiro]

even in the one cited he does make note of three pre-war atrocities.

Certainly we are not equating anti-German protests with atrocities, are we?

Now, as far as I understand, this is the WWII revisionist forum, and one would of course expect in a thread titled: "Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 1939" evidence for atrocities committed in a relatively close time-frame pertaining to WWII, a couple of years perhaps, but certainly not 20. I'm pretty sure this is what Hektor was after.

Now, if we go back far enough (since the 20's are considered "okay"), to the time of Prussia, between 1885 and 1915, the Poles experienced mass expulsions, discrimination and even more "atrocities" than the Germans ever did by the Poles. Surely one cannot then blame the Poles for their anti-German sentiment and accuse them of being "ruthless bullies" or whatever. They were practically asking for it for over 30 years. So I fail to see how these post-WWI atrocities are relevant, for they were simply a long overdue response to the Prussian atrocities. So if this is why the Germans justified the attack on Poland, maybe they should have thought about that before doing the same to the Poles 30 years ago.

As for the book "Dokumente polnischer Grausamkeiten," this wouldn't happen to be the book containing photos of the Bromberg Massacre, and a ridiculous claim of 58,000 victims, would it? And the English book wouldn't happen to be an English translation of said book, would it? This was an excellent propaganda book, a German version of Ehrenburg's Black Book, I would say. I haven't read it, but I bet it mentions no atrocities between 1930 and 1939 except for the Bromberg Massacre. Or am I mistaken?

Of all the crimes of World War II, one never hears about the wholesale massacres that occurred in Poland just before the war. Thousands of German men, women and children were massacred in the most horrendous fashion by press-enraged mobs. Hitler decided to halt the slaughter and he rushed to the rescue. Young German boys, when captured by the Poles, were castrated.

A ridiculous claim uttered for no other reason than propaganda. Not based on any documented evidence, I'm afraid. Worth as much as Irene Zisblatt's diamond story.

I'm open to the idea of Poland attacking first, on August 31st, the German army, if any such evidence will be submitted, but this search for "Polish atrocities" against innocent Germans prior WWII (not 20 years before...) will produce no results, as no massacres of innocent Germans happened before September 1939.

The "evidence" so far is a German propaganda book and its translation (that don't talk about any atrocities in the 30's, except for the one after WWII, I presume) and a ridiculous statement not backed by any evidence. The post-WWI happenings are irrelevant, unless one is desperate and will take any scraps he/she can find, in which case he/she will be limited to post-WWI activities only. But that would make one a hypocrite, by ignoring the very same things the Germans did to the Poles 30 years before.

So, let's stick to "atrocities" in a moderate time-frame before WWII. Fair is fair, after all.

[Hannover]

Toshiro,

Please re-read what I posted. Your getting a bit emotional here. Most accounts given indicate atrocities committed shortly before the German attack. And, the earlier atrocities combined with the later ones are indications of continued, unrelenting atrocities against Germans.

The "evidence" so far is a German propaganda book and its translation (that don't talk about any atrocities in the 30's, except for the one after WWII, I presume)

You presume?

Surely one cannot then blame the Poles for their anti-German sentiment and accuse them of being "ruthless bullies" or whatever.They were practically asking for it for over 30 years.

Yes, one can. Their behavior proves it. Not every Pole, of course. And then you blame the victims who had their land stolen under the cruel Treaty of Versailles, and who, by overwhelming numbers via plebiscite (ignored by the Poles), voted to have the regions returned to Germany.

You claim "Dokumente polnischer Grausamkeiten" is 'propaganda, yet you have not shown that it's contents are in error.

So I fail to see how these post-WWI atrocities are relevant...

That makes no sense. They are quite relevant. The National Socialists came about when? The Treaty of Versailles existed when?

You ask for documentation, I give you numerous sources for it, and you dismiss it out of hand without refuting it. Come on, my friend.

Thanks, Hannover

[Hektor]

.....
Now, if we go back far enough (since the 20's are considered "okay"), to the time of Prussia, between 1885 and 1915, the Poles experienced mass expulsions, discrimination and even more "atrocities" than the Germans ever did by the Poles. Surely one cannot then blame the Poles for their anti-German sentiment and accuse them of being "ruthless bullies" or whatever. They were practically asking for it for over 30 years. So I fail to see how these post-WWI atrocities are relevant, for they were simply a long overdue response to the Prussian atrocities. So if this is why the Germans justified the attack on Poland, maybe they should have thought about that before doing the same to the Poles 30 years ago....

Ah I can see from where the wind is blowing here. Trying to justify atrocities against Germans with Prussia's policy on Poles by equating the post WW1 behavior of Poles is kind of ridiculous. Especially given the facts that
- Germany gave Poland independence in 1916.
- The Ukrainians were persecuted in Poland as well, possibly even worse then the Germans.

The Polish question in Prussia was largely about language and church issues. Hardly a systematic persecution of people of Polish descent (who continued to migrate into Germany during that time).

[Moderator]

Toshiro:
You know how this forum works. Going off topic into 19th century accusations is simply changing the subject of the thread. And then, to everyone, bringing Gleiwitz into the discussion just further distorts matters. I have removed off topic posts by you and others. It also seems you are getting a bit personal, please take it easy. Thanks.
M1

[Hektor]

Toshiro, they were off topic for this thread. The pre WW1 history is off the mark and the Gleiwitz one could be a thread on its own.
Unfortunately some on topic contributions were removed as well. This Wochenschau news reel from 23-8-1939 deals with ethnic German refugees from Polish controlled areas in the second half:
http://archive.org/details/1939-08-23-UfA-Tonwoche-468