Witnesses to deportations and in general

[Magicianstouch]

Hi,

I have a question regarding witnesses and the stories of those who were deported. Are there any witnesses or memoirs of any Jewish or Polish or other people speaking about their experience of being deported? I did some reading on some deniers, and many of them say that Jews were deported.

I personally think there are some problems with the main narrative of the holocaust, but I cannot find any good reasons off the top of my head as to why there are not any witnesses to deportations or the treatment in camps. Jews that were deported eastward would have been recorded in some memoirs, whether by themselves or by other groups, no? What about Jews deported west?

[Otium]

Jews that were deported eastward would have been recorded in some memoirs, whether by themselves or by other groups, no? What about Jews deported west?

They were deported, into the camps or ghettos where they were kept until the end of the war. After that, who knows? They dispersed to a number of places.

You didn't really ask anything specific about the 'witness stories'. You mention 'experiences being deported', but what do you mean exactly? Perhaps there are memoirs which mention 'what it was like being deported', although I personally don't know of any. Nobody is debating 'experiences' until it becomes about alleged mass murder operations. Moreover, nobody disputes deportations, so there's little point in focussing on that.

It's not a matter of there being 'no witnesses', if you needed a reason to why you might think there's so few witness stories, that's just because they were not written down or documented in any other way. That's a good enough explanation for why they may not be so abundant as you would expect. Although certainly there have been efforts to obtain as many witness stories as possible, but these must be taken with a grain of salt.

In fact, the statements about treatment in the camps are dealt with the most by revisionists. The various claims by the most prominent witnesses have all been torn to shreds by revisionist scholarship.

[hermod]

I did some reading on some deniers, and many of them say that Jews were deported.

The correct word is revisionists, not 'deniers' (a libellous name coined by some dishonest antirevisionists in order to demonize and ridicule Holocaust revisionists as a good way to evade any debate with the best revisionists and their devastating arguments). And antirevisionists agree with revisionists on the existence of deportations. They disagree on what happened to the Jews after they had been deported.

[borjastick]

In Spielberg's filmed jewish holocaust survivors interviews, rather embarrassingly, many talk of being deported and even in and out of that terrible death camp Treblinka. They also talk about how pleasant life was in Auschwitz what with education, babies being born, post, painting classes and a hospital.

Not sure many were deported West as you say. Not sure how that would have been a thing. Eichmann 'Ja just for fun we will fuck with those British stupiders and send lots of jews to Bordeaux and Nice from Lodz and Kiev'.

BTW I am a Revisionist not a denier.

[Magicianstouch]

In Spielberg's filmed Jewish holocaust survivors interviews, rather embarrassingly, many talk of being deported and even in and out of that terrible death camp Treblinka. They also talk about how pleasant life was in Auschwitz what with education, babies being born, post, painting classes and a hospital.

Not sure many were deported West as you say. Not sure how that would have been a thing. Eichmann 'Ja just for fun we will fuck with those British stupiders and send lots of jews to Bordeaux and Nice from Lodz and Kiev'.

BTW I am a Revisionist not a denier.

I did not know Spielberg found these Jews, I will check that out.

Because my problem I have right now is that there aren't many stories of Jews speaking about their deportations. I can give a specific example of what I am looking for. Let's say that Larry Spielberg was taken from his home in Poland by the nazis and then deported to the east. Wouldn't this Jew tell stories, write, or have some evidence indicating their existence in the east? If you were forcibly deported, you would tell people around you how you came there would you not? I have been reading many forums and could not find proof of these Jews. Now, the USSR was a very powerful state, so the idea that they silenced these Jews isn't hard to believe. But even in the USSR there exists proof of both massacres and deportations of some groups. Is there any for a Jewish massacre in the USSR?

I understand the mainstream holocaust story has plenty of problems, most of all being the lack of bodies. If a bunch of people were killed, shouldn't we have massive graves to dig up? But I don't see how the revisionist version of the holocaust is any better, considering there seems to be a big hole where witnesses should be.

[Lamprecht]

In Spielberg's filmed jewish holocaust survivors interviews, rather embarrassingly, many talk of being deported and even in and out of that terrible death camp Treblinka.

Various Jews admitted to being deported from Treblinka at the Demjanjuk trials as well.

http://vho.org/GB/Books/t/10.html

Another 356 Jews were transferred from Treblinka to Majdanek on May 13, 1943.[870] The Jewish historians Tatiana Berenstein and Adam Rutkowski write in reference to this:[871]

"Some of the transports from Warsaw reached Lublin by way of Treblinka, where the selection of the deportees took place."

This fact is confirmed by some witnesses who were interrogated within the framework of the extradition proceedings against John Demjanjuk in the USA. In the official compilations of the interrogations,[872] which we have in our possession, the names of the witnesses have been rendered unreadable, so that we refer to the respective date, on which the interrogation occurred.

Interrogation of December 12, 1979: The witness was deported in April 1943 from Warsaw to Treblinka. On the next day he was transferred to Majdanek, where he spent 6-7 days; afterward he went to Budzyn for approximately a year. From Budzyn he was sent to Wieliczka (in the vicinity of Krakow), from there to Flossenbürg in mid-1944, and finally to Leitmeritz.

Interrogation of December 17, 1979: the witness was deported from Krakow to Płaszów, and from there to Auschwitz. After that he went to Oranienburg and finally to Flossenbürg. He stated that he spent one single day in Treblinka without giving details.

Interrogation of January 3, 1980: the witness was taken prisoner in May 1943 in Warsaw and sent directly to Majdanek, from where he was later transferred to Budzyn.

Interrogation of March 7, 1980: The witness was deported in April 1943 from Warsaw to Treblinka, where he remained for only one day; afterwards he was transferred along with 180 other prisoners to Majdanek. After two days the trip continued to Budzyn, where he spent two years. He was liberated by the Soviets from an unnamed German concentration camp.

Interrogation of March 11, 1980: the witness was sent to Treblinka in April 1943, where he remained for only a day. Transfer to Majdanek, thence to Budzyn, where he was interned for about a year. Liberated on May 5, 1945, from Mauthausen.

Interrogation of July 18, 1980: the witness was deported on April 18, 1943, from Warsaw to Majdanek. After 5 weeks he went to Auschwitz and then - toward the end of 1944 - to Gusen (a subcamp of Mauthausen) where he was liberated.

The verdict of the Jury Court of Düsseldorf determined, plainly and clearly, on September 3, 1965, that

"coming from Treblinka, several thousand people are said to have arrived at other camps."[873]

[Lamprecht]

I did not know Spielberg found these Jews, I will check that out.

Because my problem I have right now is that there aren't many stories of Jews speaking about their deportations.

There are plenty of Jews speaking about being deported. But why exactly would they go speaking about it in the first place?

I can give a specific example of what I am looking for. Let's say that Larry Spielberg was taken from his home in Poland by the nazis and then deported to the east. Wouldn't this Jew tell stories, write, or have some evidence indicating their existence in the east?

Not necessarily. For what reason would they share all of this information?

If you were forcibly deported, you would tell people around you how you came there would you not?

Just about Jew put on a train was forcibly deported. This all happened before the internet, so why would they write stories about riding a train somewhere and then being put into a ghetto? What kind of story is that?

I have been reading many forums and could not find proof of these Jews. Now, the USSR was a very powerful state, so the idea that they silenced these Jews isn't hard to believe. But even in the USSR there exists proof of both massacres and deportations of some groups. Is there any for a Jewish massacre in the USSR?

Why exactly would they keep documents about massacres of Jews for so long? The USSR is known for forging and destroying evidence. Especially after they just promoted a lie about the Germans killing millions of Jews, why would they keep documents proving they were in fact guilty of such a thing?

I understand the mainstream holocaust story has plenty of problems, most of all being the lack of bodies. If a bunch of people were killed, shouldn't we have massive graves to dig up?

Yes of course, that is physical evidence that would exist in precisely known locations today. It would still be there.

But I don't see how the revisionist version of the holocaust is any better, considering there seems to be a big hole where witnesses should be.

Witnesses to what? Train rides? According to Jewish sources there were plenty of ghettos filled with Jews in the territories east of the AR camps.



These witnesses would have been able to move around after the war was over, or may have been sent to the interior of the USSR, which was not a place one could just so easily leave. From a previous post:

There was no internet, the entirety of Europe was in chaos at this time. You could not simply go online and post where you are on social media to find your relatives, then go to the local Soviet airport and fly over to them. This nature of the Soviet system is explained in the book "Black on Red" by Robert Robinson, a Black American that went to the USSR to get a job during the great depression. The US Embassy canceled his American passport so he became a Soviet citizen. Eventually, he tried to leave the USSR to visit his sick mother in Jamaica and at this point he realized that the USSR was essentially a prison. In this book he writes about his experiences in the USSR and USA and about the people that helped him escape, and about his experiences with racism.

From a short article that appeared on 24 November 1978 in an American newspaper, The State Time, Baton Rouge/Louisiana:
"The Steinbergs once flourished in a small Jewish village in Poland. This was before Hitler’s death camps. Now more than 200 far-flung survivors and descendants are gathered here to share a special four-day celebration that began appropriately on Thanksgiving day. Relatives came Thursday from Canada, France, England, Argentina, Columbia, Israel and from at least 13 cities in the United States. 'It’s fabulous', said Iris Krasnow from Chicago. 'There are five generations here — from three months old to 85. People are crying and having a wonderful time. It’s almost like a World War II refugee reunion.'"

Why did it take so long for the gig to be up? And that is just one family.

Jews managed to go all over the place after the war was over. The fact of the matter is that we know some of the Jews who were sent to so-called "pure extermination centers" were sent elsewhere. Additionally, the outbound train records are missing/destroyed, even though they should exist (according to exterminationists, showing hundreds of empty outbound trains) so we can't assume what they actually said.

The allegation is that these people were dumped into enormous pits in exactly known locations. These pits cannot be shown to exist, despite claims that we know precisely where they are. So obviously, the people went elsewhere. Nobody ever claimed to have loads of complete travel itineraries for hundreds of thousands of illiterate Jews throughout Eastern Europe during WWII.

[Otium]

I understand the mainstream holocaust story has plenty of problems, most of all being the lack of bodies. If a bunch of people were killed, shouldn't we have massive graves to dig up? But I don't see how the revisionist version of the holocaust is any better, considering there seems to be a big hole where witnesses should be.

There is no 'hole'. Even if there was, there is no hole big enough to excuse the lack of human remains which should exist and be identified. If the mainstream narrative claims to know where the Jews are, then they must prove it. There is no hypothetical scenario involving the revisionist view having a 'hole' which justifies defaulting to the idea that Jews were killed, because that act alone produces definite results which must have left evidence behind. The revisionist position is better by default, because it doesn't pretend to know where the Jews are, or where they went, and thus has no onus to prove it. Which is to say that revisionists do not have to prove that no Jews were killed, and do not lie in the ground, but it is the duty of the people making the claim that the Jews were killed and lay in the ground who must be the ones to prove it.

[hermod]

Because my problem I have right now is that there aren't many stories of Jews speaking about their deportations. I can give a specific example of what I am looking for. Let's say that Larry Spielberg was taken from his home in Poland by the nazis and then deported to the east. Wouldn't this Jew tell stories, write, or have some evidence indicating their existence in the east? If you were forcibly deported, you would tell people around you how you came there would you not?

Why would any Jew want to demolish or even damage the core of Israel's founding myths and of Soviet-Allied WWII propaganda with such an account ???

I understand the mainstream holocaust story has plenty of problems, most of all being the lack of bodies. If a bunch of people were killed, shouldn't we have massive graves to dig up? But I don't see how the revisionist version of the holocaust is any better, considering there seems to be a big hole where witnesses should be.

That's an Ufological-like specious argument. Some Ufologists could claim as well that the lack of physical evidence for extraterrestrial aliens and spaceships is a big problem, but that alien abduction witnesses successfully filled the gap. In fact, some Ufologists did claim just that.

Finding some witnesses to any kind of nonexistent things is not that hard...

[Magicianstouch]

I will answer generally for now,

The main reason I supposed there would be witnesses or Jews speaking of these deportations is because, historically, you could find witnesses speaking of nearly any major deportation throughout history. I know that some Poles were deported by the Soviets in 1940-1941 to Siberia, and there exists a decent amount of memoirs from them. I know there are also many Polish Jews speaking of escaping to the Soviet Union as well. Is this not the same for Jews sent to camps? I am also including Jews sent eastward. If a million or so Jews were sent east, that would be a pretty major forced resettlement that there should exist some level of evidence, right?


Lamprecht, you are right that the Soviet Union would maybe attempt to censor the Jews that existed there. But we have evidence of many other Soviet massacres that they tried to censor, is there none for Jews? The reason Jews would speak about it was because of the actions nazis had to take to get these Jews. Imagine if a bunch of government officials raided your house, took all your money, and then sent you to a poor ghetto. I would talk about it or have some kinds of memoirs.

Otium, I agree with what you are saying. I do now think we can better explain our story than any believer could. But I've seen some people complain about the lack of witnesses, and I could never really come up with a counter to that. That's why I asked here.

Hermod, I disagree with your reading of Jews. If Jews willingly silenced themselves, this would require many Jews to cooperate in a pretty large group, which I don't think is possible without some of this conspiracy breaking, even for Jews.

[Lamprecht]

I will answer generally for now,

The main reason I supposed there would be witnesses or Jews speaking of these deportations is because, historically, you could find witnesses speaking of nearly any major deportation throughout history. I know that some Poles were deported by the Soviets in 1940-1941 to Siberia, and there exists a decent amount of memoirs from them. I know there are also many Polish Jews speaking of escaping to the Soviet Union as well. Is this not the same for Jews sent to camps? I am also including Jews sent eastward. If a million or so Jews were sent east, that would be a pretty major forced resettlement that there should exist some level of evidence, right?

Lamprecht, you are right that the Soviet Union would maybe attempt to censor the Jews that existed there. But we have evidence of many other Soviet massacres that they tried to censor, is there none for Jews? The reason Jews would speak about it was because of the actions nazis had to take to get these Jews. Imagine if a bunch of government officials raided your house, took all your money, and then sent you to a poor ghetto. I would talk about it or have some kinds of memoirs.

Except we do have testimonies of Jews claiming to have been deported. Making a big deal about one stop at an AR camp is unlikely, except when something of that nature is requested, such as in the Demjanjuk trial.

You claim that you personally would make a big stink and write some long story if, during WWII, all of your property was stolen and you were put on a train and sent to the East. But the internet exists now, so you can just go online and make a post of that nature with little effort. Such a task is much more difficult for someone who is illiterate, elderly, and a citizen of the USSR, a country in which they cannot leave. It also seems rather whiny, given that you had your stuff stolen and were forced to live somewhere else, while stories are abundant of people having everything they own stolen or destroyed, and then being forced into camps where they had to do forced labor while watching family members die of malnutrition and disease.

There is quite a bit of evidence for this forced resettlement. It was a policy known as "The Final Solution" and various documents describe it in detail. The real question is, who exactly was expected to go around decades ago into the USSR to interview as many Jews as possible and try to figure out how/when they made it to the USSR, with a complete travel itinerary decades after the event, when their story is an uneventful "I lost all of my belongings and I had a few unenjoyable train rides during the war."

[borjastick]

Never forget that the silence of the deportees is very good Shoah business. If all these people were writing memoirs about living in Munich or Paris before the war and then being sent east to live a happy life behind the iron curtain until their death in 1998 that would prove the holocaust in gas chambers was a myth. Keeping these people quiet is essential to the success of the claims that all these people disappeared into the camps and went up the chimney.

You do hear many people who did survive the camps saying things like this| 'My whole family, all 276 of us, were rounded up in (insert city name here) and sent on a dreadful train journey in cattle cars with no toilet facilities for three days. When we got there we realised it was Auschwitz. The guards on the ramp where selection took place told us we would be going up in smoke. I was lucky because I met Dr Mengele, the Angel of Death, and he saved me. But all my other relatives were gassed immediately. I never saw any of my family again. I am the only survivor'.

Sounds much better if you use a David Ben Goldstein voice just for added emotion...

[Otium]

Otium, I agree with what you are saying. I do now think we can better explain our story than any believer could. But I've seen some people complain about the lack of witnesses, and I could never really come up with a counter to that. That's why I asked here.

They can complain all they want, but the argument is a red herring, a mere deflection.

In that type of discussion you have made the mistake of falling on the backfoot, allowing these people to avoid criticisms of the unresolvable holes in their claims, while inventing 'problems' with yours (which do not exist) in order to imply that their position cannot be questioned, and is somehow more credible as a result. It's not a tactic conducive to truth, it is blatant manipulation, an attempt to conjure unanswerable hypothetical questions in perpetuity until you're so inundated with nonsense that it appears to be a 'victory' for the other side.

The fact is that the story of deportations to camps and ghettos at this time was ubiquitous, and certainly not secretive, so it hardly requires a torrent of memoirs and testimonies, for what purpose does it serve? What does it prove? Nothing other than Jews were deported, which everyone accepts.

If you were so inclined you could cynically counter with a rhetorical question: "Are you denying the deportations of Jews into camps and ghettos?", they would say "no, of course not." To which you could reply: "Then why are you asking me for eyewitnesses to deportations? Why are we having this conversation?"

[hermod]

Hermod, I disagree with your reading of Jews. If Jews willingly silenced themselves, this would require many Jews to cooperate in a pretty large group, which I don't think is possible without some of this conspiracy breaking, even for Jews.

Jews don't need directives to refrain from public statements damaging the interests of their own people. That's how they're raised from their youngest age. The idea of being surrounded and threatened by real and imaginary hostile anti-Semitic Goyim is at the core of their education. Moreover the realization that they could make much more money with fictitious stories of Treblinka gas chambers was not rocket science after WWII. And anyway, no secret supranational organization is needed to make hundreds of thousands of people throughout the world tell fictitious stories of alien abduction.

[Waldgänger]

I don't think OP understands what deportation means. Literally every Holocaust survivor testimony (such as people interviewed by USHMM in the 1990s) is a witness account of deportation. Staying in Auschwitz for 10 minutes, moving on elsewhere. Transfers. Cattle cars. Ghettos. Work camps. That was the process.