New research uncovers strong evidence that Jews were murdered BEFORE they reached Treblinka

[Lamprecht]

Hold on, did you read the paper I linked? (referencing probably dozens of different sources testifying to the existence and survival of a single community of resettled Jews in Romanian held USSR)

I just glanced through quickly (my time is short) but a few names to search would be

Meier Teich

Marcu Rozen

Anna Ivankovitser

Samuil Roitberg

Ichel Pogranichny

Simon Meer

I only skimmed the paper because it is completely irrelevant to the topic of this thread, or anything related to it. I find the following train of "logic" to be unsound:

1. Some Jews were resettled during WWII
2. We have post-war testimony about these Jews being resettled
3. There is no known post-war testimony of Jews claiming to have stopped at Belzec before being resettled
4. Therefore, 100s of thousands of Jews were dumped into enormous pits at Belzec (that cannot be shown to exist)

It's a completely ridiculous line of thinking. That's why I asked:

At least how many of them "spoke profusely" about it? Provide a number
When did they "speak profusely" about it? Provide dates
Where did they "speak profusely" about it? Provide locations
To whom did they "speak profusely" about it, and why? Explain
What percent of those transited in this cohort "spoke profusely" about it? Provide an estimate
Can you provide a list of every single train stop they were subjected to when transferring to this location?

So far, we have perhaps "six" for question number one.

What do you think? I haven't seen anything like this for the alleged resettlement of 1.5-2 million Jews in German held territory from 1942 on, have you?

What do I think? I think's it unfortunate for people that are interested in complete travel itineraries for 100s of thousands of Jews during WWII that we do not have this information. But I think if their reasoning is:
"Well, I'm not aware of any that said they were resettled, so they must have been gassed and dumped into pits by the hundreds of thousands."
That is very lazy and illogical. It would make perfect sense and I would agree with them... if these pits could actually be shown to exist. However, there is no reason to believe that they exist. You even posted documents suggesting that Jews "unfit to work" sent to Belzec were to be resettled east. Whether or not that actually happened is another separate issue. It's quite possible they were sent to a nearby internment camp or ghetto and the plan was to resettle them later.

The thing about Belzec - as well as Sobibor and Treblinka - is that they are in a perfect location for a resettlement/transit camp. They're right around the area where the railroad gauge sizes change. Belzec (top left):



All 3:



We also know that the train records for Belzec were said to have been destroyed by a Soviet aerial bomb. But even if they weren't, that doesn't mean we ever would have seen them anyway.

If 100s of thousands of Jews were not gassed and dumped into pits at Belzec, than they obviously went somewhere else. if they were gassed and dumped into pits at Belzec, these enormous pits would exist today full of millions of pounds of physical evidence (burnt bones, teeth, wood ash, etc). But there is simply no convincing evidence that these pits exist. The most likely situation is that the camp was part of a massive resettlement policy of Jews, which certainly never completed. How far along it went is also uncertain. It's quite likely a large number of Jews were in ghettos around this area, and the plan was to resettle them somewhere else but it never actually ended up happening.

[Zolton]

Nazgul:

There are no known labour camps in the Lviv area. Lutsk is about 140 km away.

bombsaway:

One of the major problems with your theory is there were labor camps everywhere in Poland, and especially by major ghettos.

Nazgul and Butterfangers do not have theory, they have a hypothesis.

A theory is a tested, well-substantiated, unifying explanation for a set of verified, proven factors. A theory is always backed by evidence; a hypothesis is only a suggested possible outcome.

As Butterfangers wrote:

The hypothesis being put forth is that the question of "where did Jews [sent to Treblinka II] go" is perhaps irrelevant (or less relevant) as it can be argued that a majority of them never arrived at TII in the first place... Many or most, it would seem, departed at various labor camps along the way... many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka.

bombsaway:

It should be explained (with evidence!) what happened to the Jews...

Nazgul and Butterfangers don't concern themselves much with evidence. Their hypothesis is "supported" by assumptions, their main one being; because there were labor camps along the line west of Treblinka and the eastward bound trains made stops at them, the Jews who got off the train at those stops never got back on them and continued east, despite the fact that the physical removal of Jews to the east was Nazi policy.

That's why they have to dodge all the relevant questions on the matter of what The Final Solution's goal was.

[Zolton]

Lamprecht:

I only skimmed the paper because it is completely irrelevant to the topic of this thread

So is Belzec.

[borjastick]

The thing about Belzec - as well as Sobibor and Treblinka - is that they are in a perfect location for a resettlement/transit camp. They're right around the area where the railroad gauge sizes change.

Lamprecht

Which is why I said, in a comment sometime last year, why on earth would you engage in such a huge programme of physical removal to foreign lands in such a massive organisational project of trains and resettlement if you were planning to kill them? Germany and the environs at the time was a huge area with a much smaller population than now and thus it afforded many locations and military bases, facilities etc for mass murder which could be far more efficient and controllable in situ than shipping these people far to the east to do the same...

[Lamprecht]

It should be explained (with evidence!) what happened to the Jews unfit for work who were the majority in the General Government, and who were seemingly filtered out and sent to Reinhard camps like Belzec.

Why would the majority be unfit for work?
In the USA, the official retirement age is after 60 years of age. After about the age of 30, there's an exponential increase of mortality rates in which the risk of death doubles every 9 years. This is a current trend and has gone back a very long time.
If we are talking about "unfit for work" we are talking of just a minority of people. Very young children, who do not need as much food, would quite possibly be kept around with their "fit to work" parents, so the parents would be more willing to engage in labor.

The thing about Belzec - as well as Sobibor and Treblinka - is that they are in a perfect location for a resettlement/transit camp. They're right around the area where the railroad gauge sizes change.

Lamprecht

Which is why I said, in a comment sometime last year, why on earth would you engage in such a huge programme of physical removal to foreign lands in such a massive organisational project of trains and resettlement if you were planning to kill them? Germany and the environs at the time was a huge area with a much smaller population than now and thus it afforded many locations and military bases, facilities etc for mass murder which could be far more efficient and controllable in situ than shipping these people far to the east to do the same...

It's also just not a very obvious location for an extermination camp. We're expected to believe that the Germans would force Jews from all corners of Europe to be put on trains just to be sent to these camps to be killed - instead of killing them on the spot.
So you would expect all of these "pure extermination camps" to be in strategic, centralized locations where trains from multiple directions could easily get to.


Auschwitz more readily fits this pattern, but we also know there was a massive amount of forced labor going on here for the war effort. Even local Poles were working at Auschwitz for pay.

[Nazgul]

Nazgul and Butterfangers don't concern themselves much with evidence. Their hypothesis is "supported" by assumptions, their main one being; because there were labor camps along the line west of Treblinka and the eastward bound trains made stops at them, the Jews who got off the train at those stops never got back on them and continued east, despite the fact that the physical removal of Jews to the east was Nazi policy.

That's why they have to dodge all the relevant questions on the matter of what The Final Solution's goal was.

The Fahrplananordnung documents presented all have Treblinka as the final destination, not TII. These documents have been used by Hilberg and others as "evidence" of mass arrivals at the alleged Treblinka Vernichtungslager. I have simply stated that the long stops at the precise locations of zwangarbeitslager für Juden and Eisenbahnknotenpunkte (junctions) preclude those documents as being evidence of mass transports to the final destination.

It has been requested that if there are other Fahrplananordnung which have transports directly to Treblinka then please present them. If these cannot be produced it is not unreasonable to assume that Fahrplananordnung were schedules used for transport people and goods to and from the camps, not just the end point

In support of this is a transport from Galicia to Belzec. The poster bombsaway at CODOH posted a link regarding delays on the Belzec line in Galicia, specifically from Kolomea (now Kolomyia). A report regarding the deportation of Jews from Kolomea to Belzec mentioning issues with the "passengers" in transit. This report is in pdf file for convenience. Jewish Resettlement in Eastern Galicea. Here is the original link the information was obtained from.

The date of the report is written as 9/14/42 or the 14 September 1942. Germans would write this as 14.9.42 as the dates are in the report. At Lviv the train went to a suburban station and Jews removed for the labour camp. The transport carries on.

Butterfangers has shown that there were many camps for Hungarian Jews in Austria, which is strange if they were to be exterminated at Auschwitz as claimed.

Korherr did mention over a million Jews passing (smuggled) through the camps of the GG which was true when this report was written. It is also true that there was a movement of labour camps to the west as it became clear the eastern front was failing. There are many reports of Jews in Ostland returning to the General Government after the Korherr report was written. The planned relocation of the Jews to the Russian East did not go as expected.

If there are claims of mass murder of the scale known as the holocaust this needs to be proven with physical evidence. All I have seen are adminicles, documents like die Fahrplananordnung which are out of context and of course the famous eye witness statements which are contradictory in many cases.

[Zolton]

Zolton:

Nazgul and Butterfangers don't concern themselves much with evidence. Their hypothesis is "supported" by assumptions, their main one being; because there were labor camps along the line west of Treblinka and the eastward bound trains made stops at them, the Jews who got off the train at those stops never got back on them and continued east, despite the fact that the physical removal of Jews to the east was Nazi policy.

That's why they have to dodge all the relevant questions on the matter of what The Final Solution's goal was.

Nazgul:

The Fahrplananordnung documents presented all have Treblinka as the final destination, not TII.

Which doesn't change one bit the truthfulness of my statement above.

Nazgul:

These documents have been used by Hilberg and others as "evidence" of mass arrivals at the alleged Treblinka Vernichtungslager.

Which doesn't change one bit the truthfulness of my statement above.

Nazgul:

I have simply stated that the long stops at the precise locations of zwangarbeitslager für Juden and Eisenbahnknotenpunkte (junctions) preclude those documents as being evidence of mass transports to the final destination.

So are you disassociating yourself with Butterfangers unsubstantiated assumptions he put forth here:

The hypothesis being put forth is that the question of "where did Jews [sent to Treblinka II] go" is perhaps irrelevant (or less relevant) as it can be argued that a majority of them never arrived at TII in the first place... Many or most, it would seem, departed at various labor camps along the way... many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka.

?

Nazgul:

It has been requested that if there are other Fahrplananordnung which have transports directly to Treblinka then please present them. If these cannot be produced it is not unreasonable to assume that Fahrplananordnung were schedules used for transport people and goods to and from the camps, not just the end point

Yet more assumptions.

Do you have any evidence that "many, if not most" of the Jews that were transited east along the Treblinka line "never got as far as Treblinka"?

Nazgul:

In support of this is a transport from Galicia to Belzec..

Trying to change the subject again.

Nazgul:

Butterfangers has shown that there were many camps for Hungarian Jews in Austria, which is strange if they were to be exterminated at Auschwitz as claimed.

And again

Nazgul::

There are many reports of Jews in Ostland returning to the General Government after the Korherr report was written. The planned relocation of the Jews to the Russian East did not go as expected.

Which would mean the Jews DID get transited out of the GG.

Nazgul::

If there are claims of mass murder of the scale known as the holocaust this needs to be proven with physical evidence. All I have seen are adminicles, documents like die Fahrplananordnung which are out of context and of course the famous eye witness statements which are contradictory in many cases.

Much like the hypothesis being put fort by you and Butterfangers.

Nazgul, why are you so afraid to answer any question as to what the goal of The Final Solution was?

Why are you so afraid to answer these questions? (and others like them.)

Would it have made more sense; to empty trains as they headed east along the route towards Treblinka, or try to keep them as full as possible?

Does the dropping off of Jews from trains heading east on the Treblinka line provide any evidence that those same Jews weren't later put on other trains heading east?

[bombsaway]

It should be explained (with evidence!) what happened to the Jews unfit for work who were the majority in the General Government, and who were seemingly filtered out and sent to Reinhard camps like Belzec.

Why would the majority be unfit for work?

As the orthodox narrative goes, they were killed for political reasons as well as economic. It's arguable that keeping useless Jews around for morale purposes, was prudent economically, as these people would have to be fed, housed, and cared for medically to prevent epidemics. As forced laborers they would unproductive and extra resources would have to be devoted to keeping them alive. Still there are instances (eg in Kovno ghetto) of such Jews falling under the protection of the army, but the SS was motivated to kill them for political purposes, short term and long term.

This is a good document from the Governor of Belarus that shows the SDs desire to kill non-employable Jews in occupied USSR. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/th ... yelorussia

[Hektor]

....
As the orthodox narrative goes, they were killed for political reasons as well as economic. It's arguable that keeping useless Jews around for morale purposes, was prudent economically, as these people would have to be fed, housed, and cared for medically to prevent epidemics. As forced laborers they would unproductive and extra resources would have to be devoted to keeping them alive. Still there are instances (eg in Kovno ghetto) of such Jews falling under the protection of the army, but the SS was motivated to kill them for political purposes, short term and long term.

This is a good document from the Governor of Belarus that shows the SDs desire to kill non-employable Jews in occupied USSR. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/th ... yelorussia

But it's a rescue device. When somebody notices that those that were unfit for work were actually kept alive - at German expense - they come up with some rationale that this was 'necessary for morale'. They still imply that the purpose of measures was to physically kill all Jews of course. That is however their paradigm and thesis they never prove to begin with.

I'm sure there were people that had a knife in for Jews, but was that actual policy? The actions and course of events simply doesn't support that notion.


Why is JVL not showing us the scan of their original? Are they afraid someone will check it for authenticity?

[Otium]

Nazgul and Butterfangers don't concern themselves much with evidence. Their hypothesis is "supported" by assumptions, their main one being; because there were labor camps along the line west of Treblinka and the eastward bound trains made stops at them, the Jews who got off the train at those stops never got back on them and continued east, despite the fact that the physical removal of Jews to the east was Nazi policy.

That's why they have to dodge all the relevant questions on the matter of what The Final Solution's goal was.

Complete and utter rubbish.

I asked you what you thought happened, and you dodged, because you actually have no idea nor do you have any proof for whatever it is you believe. It's a very simple question, do you think they were killed? If yes, then prove it. Simple. If not, then we can happily speculate all day about what potentially happened, but so long as we know they weren't killed, then that's the main point.

the Jews who got off the train at those stops never got back on them and continued east, despite the fact that the physical removal of Jews to the east was Nazi policy.

It was NS policy, if you don't think it was then you need to prove it. Because clearly you don't agree with the evidence and interpretations furnished by revisionists. So what is your evidence and interpretations? You cannot continously attempt to assert that others are wrong and offer no alternative explanations. The only reason you have offered nothing in support of what you believe, which you won't even disclose, is because it would mean you would be open to the same scrutiny.

You also clearly don't understand that policies can still exist without being carried out in their entirety, or there being blank spots in the chronology and evidence. As I said before, the question is whether the Jews were killed, if the answer is 'yes', then prove it, if it's 'no' then we have the liberty to speculate about what happened next despite incomplete information.

There is no reason to expect with the war going on, all the camps and ghettos that existed, all of the shuffling and dying going on that any Jews were continously moved further east, or that the final stages of resettlement even occured. This doesn't mean the "Nazis" had no resettlement policy.

[Hektor]

....
It was NS policy, if you don't think it was then you need to prove it. Because clearly you don't agree with the evidence and interpretations furnished by revisionists. So what is your evidence and interpretations? You cannot continously attempt to assert that others are wrong and offer no alternative explanations. The only reason you have offered nothing in support of what you believe, which you won't even disclose, is because it would mean you would be open to the same scrutiny. ....

It turns into the "we can prove our case", "but you can't prove us wrong neither" type of argument. That's were Holocaustians shift to ones they are cornered and embarrassed that they actually can not prove the narrative with concise facts. So they throw in snippets into the debate and demand to 'prove that wrong'. It's a desperate attempt to uphold the narrative after it turns out that it doesn't hold up too well under scrutiny.

[bombsaway]

....

Why is JVL not showing us the scan of their original? Are they afraid someone will check it for authenticity?

I don't think so, it's available https://phdn.org/histgen/einsatzgruppen ... 10742.html

Mattogno commented on this document thusly, so I guess he thinks its real

"The massacres, even in their brutality, were therefore motivated by the anti-partisan war and not by an extermination order of Jews for being Jews. "

https://archive.org/stream/Exterminatio ... g_djvu.txt

[Nazgul]

So are you disassociating yourself with Butterfangers unsubstantiated assumptions he put forth here:

The hypothesis being put forth is that the question of "where did Jews [sent to Treblinka II] go" is perhaps irrelevant (or less relevant) as it can be argued that a majority of them never arrived at TII in the first place... Many or most, it would seem, departed at various labor camps along the way... many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka.

Butterfangers and I are working on the Jewish labour camps, investigating the role they played. It was reported by the NYT, that : “The Holocaust Just Got More Shocking” (Eric Lichtblau, March 1, 2013)

Many people thought the number of camps was around 10,000, but here we find a new number – upwards of 40,000. link

Raul Hilberg (1926 – 2007) used Fahrplananordnung 587 as evidence of mass deportations to Treblinka. link This was in his 1985 interview with Claude Lanzmann. His book The Destruction of the European Jews , first published in 1961, constituted much of what we know about this alleged event today. In light of new information this is woefully lacking.

It appears that historians like Hilberg and Nick Terry have little idea of the extent of the camp system in the Reich. Many camps were temporary affairs, without names. It are these that "Butterfangers" and I are researching.

Do you have any evidence that "many, if not most" of the Jews that were transited east along the Treblinka line "never got as far as Treblinka"?

Yes, it has been mentioned enough times that workers transited from Kielce labour camp to Skarzysko-Kamienna, which are both on the same line as that in Fahrplananordnung 587. As the labour camps along the route were all manned and serviced by trains it is highly probable that large numbers of Jews arrived at those camps by rail.

In support of this is a transport from Galicia to Belzec..

Trying to change the subject again.

Not at all; this is another example of Jews leaving transports to arrive at labour camps. You demanded evidence of this just above for the Treblinka line. I gave some evidence for the Belzec line.

Nazgul, why are you so afraid to answer any question as to what the goal of The Final Solution was?

Why are you so afraid to answer these questions? (and others like them.)

That is off topic

Would it have made more sense; to empty trains as they headed east along the route towards Treblinka, or try to keep them as full as possible?

Trains remove wagons at various stops in real life, adding more ones. This is called "shunting".

Does the dropping off of Jews from trains heading east on the Treblinka line provide any evidence that those same Jews weren't later put on other trains heading east?

There is no evidence but it is likely that Jews left the labour camps by train. There was constant movement of Jews by train. This is in many "survivor" reports; some went to 20 camps. The train stopped at the Malkinia station where there is evidence of a transit camp.

[Butterfangers]

So, I updated the RK Ostland (and other Eastern territory) map with numerous fixes, including the following:

correction to "Perewederow" (was in Poland, should be Ukraine).
correction for Mielegjany
correction for Dworez
correction for Joniškis
correction for Mokrowo
correction for Orany
correction for Smolensk and Smolno (previously together but are separate locations)
correction for Suchowola (Sukhovolya)
slight correction to Suschenhof (Zuzi)
correction to Traken (Troki)
correction for Vilnius and Wieleczany (previously together but are probably separate locations)
slight correction to Wiwikond

I was able to get more precise locations based on the database at JewishGen.org which has a "Jewish Communities Database". At this point, I feel highly confident that at least the general locations of nearly all of the plotted sites are correct.

I also corrected some of the odd translations in the hover-over descriptions, cleaned up some of the formatting, and changed "Generalbezirk" names back to German original, for geographical clarity/accuracy. The revised map is here:

https://www.mapcustomizer.com/map/Zwang ... ndUkraine7


(If ever desired to make your own edits, Bulk Entry data for the map is here: https://controlc.com/8d6d401d)

Original data remains here: https://archive.is/Y1IUO

I also updated the ghetto overlay map (includes identified eastern Zwangsarbeitslagers as red [single] or green [multiple] markers and "large ghettos" as orange dots, which have been made slightly-transparent as well for clarity):

While I was at it, I translated the Soviet train map a bit further, just as a reference tool:

And with that, decided to highlight the train routes (as best I could tell) to show the paths the trains traveled between different locations, labor camps, etc., once crossing into the East:

Northern (RK Ostland border-area; ignore the three yellow-black dot markers):

Southern (RK Ukraine border-area):

Almost all of these [known] camps were located alongside or nearby the major lines.

One thing I also found interesting is the type of work being conducted along the line between Brest-Litovsk (Brest) to Minsk. Brest is approximately where at least dozens of labor camps are known to have existed en route between the Sobibor and Brest area. But as you move along the line from that area toward Minsk (and then slightly beyond this area), there are many labor camps which held particularly light duty labor (shoemaking, assembly work, sawmill, carpentry, clothing/loot warehouse, laundry).

I don't have any conclusions to add on anything as of yet (and I have yet to catch up in reading this thread) but figure this information may be helpful in the discussion.

[Nazgul]

I don't have any conclusions to add on anything as of yet (and I have yet to catch up in reading this thread) but figure this information may be helpful in the discussion.

I think it very helpful and relevant. You will see above, when you get the time, that the number of camps has been underestimated, well below the acceptable margin of error. While those camps include camps of all kinds, a huge proportion of them were zwangarbeitslager f J (ZALFJ), that popped in and out of existence in some cases without names.
Here is evidence of the Belzec area as a transit camp. No doubt these labourers would have been relieved of any valuables they may have had first.

Fritz Reuter had been in contact with Höfle 17 March 42; he wrote:

ausgeladAbschließend erklärte er, er könne täglich 4-5 Transporte zu 1.000 Juden mit der ZielstationBelzec aufnehmen. Diese Juden kämen über die Grenze und würden nie mehr insGeneralgouvernement zurückkommen.

Finally, he declared that he could receive 4 – 5 daily transports of 1,000 Jews with final destination Belzec. These Jews will be moved beyond the border and will not return to the General Government.

The only border near Belzec was the RKU, Galizien was part of the GG at that time. As we are discovering there were far more ZALFJs in the RKU than anyone previously thought.