Allied 'evidence' manipulation at Dachau

[Dresden]

Thames Darwin said:

".....if the Nazis cared about the lives of the people pictured, they should have freed them"


If the Jews behind Churchill and Roosevelt cared about the people pictured, they shouldn't have started the war; Churchill and Roosevelt were puppets In the hands of the Jewish Banksters, financiers, and mass media owners who started the war of total destruction against Germany.....why didn't they order the saturation bombing to stop?
Then food and medical supplies could have reached the camps.

Answer.....they didn't give a crap about their disposable "brethren".

"One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe". -- Yitzhak Gruenbaum

" think it is necessary to state here – Zionism is above everything. I will not demand that the Jewish Agency allocate a sum of 300,000 or 100,000 pounds sterling to help European Jewry. And I think that whoever demands such things is performing an anti-Zionist act" -- Yitzhak Gruenbaum

[hermod]

The biggest manipulation in this case is the distortion of the cause of those inmates' death. The Allied 'liberators' secured great evidence of mega-epidemics raging in the collapsing Third Reich. But the democracies' Establisment will never admit that. Those dead bodies are too useful as alleged "victims of Nazi barbarity". Israël and the Western multicultural societies wouldn't survive such a concession...?

Really? A lot of these people weren't German by nationality. They were Poles, Hungarians, etc. And yes, some Germans as well. But in the case of virtually all of them, they were unjustly taken into Nazi custody -- in the case of the Jews, the religion of their grandparents was pretty much the only unifying trait that they shared. And while in Nazi custody, they died. Who, therefore, bears the greatest responsibility for their deaths, if not the Nazis?

Unjustly? Funny to see that all Jews are always allowed to turn the world into a bloodbath but that nobody is never allowed to touch one hair of any Jew. The Jews were imprisoned as justly as the Japs living in America at that time, as members of an enemy people.

And who bears the greatest responsibility for the tens of millions of deaths caused by mega-epidemics of WW1 and its aftermath (Spanish flu, typhus, etc.)? Young Corporal Hitler?

Nothing new. "Pestilence" (i.e. epidemics) has always been the most murderous of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse raging in all wars of the past. No need to steal Palestine from its legitimate owners for normal war-linked epidemics.



If it's about who is responsible for epidemics and who is not, why do mainstream media and orthodox historians almost never mention diseases when such pics are used? Why do they always blame such pics on starvation and gassings?

[Carto's Cutlass Supreme]

The train. It seems fishy. Around 1,000 dead bodies. Not one survivor? Yes some will die sooner than others but not one person still alive? Box cars wide open? 1st Lt. William Cowling "Many of the bodies had bullet holes in the back of their heads." That doesn't make sense with the story.

Jewish historian Robert Abzug mentions the head SS man Skodzensky, but there's no record that he ever existed according to scrapbookpages.com

Just like at Ohrdruff, we hear the refrain

Over and over again, these soldiers would say that they did not know why they were fighting this war until they saw Dachau and the Death Train.

If that was a general attitude among the troops, well it certainly was, maybe OSS or Psych Warfare tried to set something up, like they did at Ohrdruff.

And if memory serves, people who became famous film directors and were known to be in the OSS, are heard offering testimony as signal corps photographers, and they're talking about Dachau? That I would need to research to back that up, but I believe I've seen that. George Stevens? later directed James Dean in Giant.

[Hannover]

The Black Rabbit said:

Sorry K0nsl, but I think the 'American brought corpses to Dachau and Buchenwald for propaganda purposes' claim is completely ridiculous and will have the anti-revs laughing.

In lieu of the curious 'Dachau death train' it looks like Kunsl is doing the laughing.
As CCS has pointed out, US movie directors on the scene, planted 'evidence', absurd unsupportable claims speak to the stagecraft employed in order demonize the Germans, hence distract from the very real Allied war crimes and attempt to lend credence to the fabricated, impossible tales of 'gas chambers & 6M'.

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.

[Kingfisher]

Thames (I respect the conventions of this forum and your choice to, like me, to use a pseudonym), whether deliberately or not you are confusing and conflating different issues. Hermod correctly pointed out that the awful pictures from Belsen and other Western camps are routinely and dishonestly presented as evidence of Nazi extermination and deliberate brutality. You, however are informed and intelligent enough to know that the events today known as the Holocaust, whatever their real nature, took place elsewhere. You know as well as I do that these scenes resulted from loss of control through overcrowding and breakdown of infrastructure in the total collapse of Germany in defeat.

First of all, these people are every bit victims of the Holocaust as those elsewhere. I fail to see the distinction.

Second, if the Nazis cared about the lives of the people pictured, they should have freed them. That they didn't is blood on their hands.

Of course you see the distinction between deliberate and selective extermination of an ethnic group (aka The Holocaust TM) and deaths arising from a combination of chaos and mismanagement in the total logistic collapse of a country under enemy bombardment, defeat, sacking and occupation.

As for freeing these prisoners, it might have helped the prisoners to leave them free to roam and fend for themselves, though even that is disputable, but would have meant turning diseased and vengeful mobs loose upon the civilian population as happened with Eli Wiesel and his gang of rapists and plunderers in Weimar. Non-starter. The Allies maintained the camps closed when they took over for this very reason.

[k0nsl]

Dear TheBlackRabbitofInlé

Thanks for your response! You should keep in mind it's only a curious and entirely possible scenario presented by me. The article which I linked to mention Americans transporting away German victims — not to Dachau or any other KZ specifically, true. But what did the Americans do with these corpses and why were they transported away and for what purpose?

As for emaciated corpses: many German soldiers and civilians were in a similar state. For example, picture these two SS men naked:

Those two men were imprisoned by the Americans at Hadamar. I am sure if you search around a little, you, too, can find many cases of emaciated German men, women and children. One example would be to search around for 'Rheinwiesenlager ' which were operational already sometime in April, 1945.

Faithfully,
-k0nsl

Sorry K0nsl, but I think the 'American brought corpses to Dachau and Buchenwald for propaganda purposes' claim is completely ridiculous and will have the anti-revs laughing.

The Americans certainly used what corpses they found there for propaganda purposes; stacking them up in and around the crematoria for politicians, journalists, cameramen and Joe Public to see. Denierbud showed in One Third how the corpses at Ohrdruf were left out in the spring sunshine for weeks so that as many US troops as possible (who were ordered to visit) would see them and realise 'why they were fighting.'

All the corpses in the Buchenwald and Dachau footage are severely emaciated, meaning they likely died from typhus, and were very unlikely to be the bodies of duty-fit German soldiers who died from bullet wounds.

[Kladderadatsch]

As for freeing these prisoners, it might have helped the prisoners to leave them free to roam and fend for themselves, though even that is disputable, but would have meant turning diseased and vengeful mobs loose upon the civilian population as happened with Eli Wiesel and his gang of rapists and plunderers in Weimar. Non-starter. The Allies maintained the camps closed when they took over for this very reason.

In fairness to Elie, he claims that he remained "at home" in the camp on the day his Buchenwald homies went out to rape girls after "liberation." He does say, however, that he was disappointed they didn't kill anyone, lol.

(For those who don't know the details, see Seidman's "Elie Wiesel and the Scandal of Jewish Rage": http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/4 ... 6763579573)

[Carto's Cutlass Supreme]

I'm not sure what to think of the train, but one thing to keep in mind is none of the shenanigans at Buchenwald or in the Merkers mine would have happened if the Allies knew they were going to find the horrific scene at Belsen. They thought they had to create this stuff because they weren't going to find anything bad. So if the Dachau train was a set-up, it would have been planned before this knowledge also.

Also I've never heard of anyone ID'ing any of the dead on the train. Stuff in pockets? Tattoo numbers from Auschwitz?

[Hektor]

I'm not sure what to think of the train, but one thing to keep in mind is none of the shenanigans at Buchenwald or in the Merkers mine would have happened if the Allies knew they were going to find the horrific scene at Belsen. They thought they had to create this stuff because they weren't going to find anything bad. So if the Dachau train was a set-up, it would have been planned before this knowledge also.

Also I've never heard of anyone ID'ing any of the dead on the train. Stuff in pockets? Tattoo numbers from Auschwitz?

....

I recall that the "Death Train" waggons had bullet holes in them. But can't find them right now (evidence that shows another story has sometimes the habit of vanishing). If somebody got a photo like this, I'd appreciate it.

I read now that the train was stopped during it's journey. Allegedly because another train was derailed.

So there is various versions circulating, possibly some on hearsay as well. A lot of stuff will be difficult or impossible to reconstruct.

But I see that also in the light of the tendency to shift the blame of Allied war crimes onto Germans, initially the SS was the target (I'd guess for strategical reason to animate the members of the Wehrmacht to engage in the blame shifting as well), but that grew like a cancer over time.

Blaming their granddads is official policy in Germany nowadays. And it would be German speakers that would be most able to challenge the propaganda myth making of the past. But they or most of them don't. This was a bit different years ago, when those that experienced WW2 as young adults, kids or grown-ups were still alive. Especially Germans living abroad were more open about this, although many were really embittered based on their experiences. The Germans from Germany were more inline with mentioned policy, but even they would tell you some "alternative history", if the setting was more relaxed. What became an issue were the missionaries and apostles of "Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung" - they already became vicious some decades ago, when someone stepped out of line on those matters. The present day apostles go really nuts, when it is done. Not really a climate in which serious historiography and research can be done. Well, I guess the pushers of the PC version have every reason to undermine this anyway. Interestingly since last year a leap was taken to extent the questioning taboo on other matters as well. If you do not believe that the government has got your well-being at heart when forcing you to wear masks, curfews and destroy your business, then you are a "conspiracy theorists" - There is a real inflation of this term on German forums, but also in the Anglosphere I've seen this pitching up. And well, the pseudo-vaccination campaign looks like a Dysthenasia program, given the large percentage of older people dying after the jab. Of course there are official denials that it stems from the RNA-Jab. And they blame it on Corona. In other words, the consequences of their measures are used to keep the scamdemic alive.

[Wachtman]

If I'm thinking about the same picture, those bodies should be black because of Livor Mortis, which starts setting in as soon as in 20 minutes. If the pretext is that the Germans murdered the worker-prisoners last, then ran away, then the allies found the bodies just abandoned in the last days or even last hours, they would be somewhat to completely black. However, it is plausible that the film crews arrived 3 to 6 days later, and morgued bodies were brought in as needed to satisfy the ghouls, I mean the Directors as they needed them, and they could look freshly killed.

I have heard of claimed accounts of German Prisoners-Of-War claiming to have witnessed bodies being delivered for the filming, but I don't think there's any hard evidence of this which has been found yet.

[Moderator]

FYI:
I have fixed the previously broken photo links in the OP.
M1

[Hektor]

If I'm thinking about the same picture, those bodies should be black because of Livor Mortis, which starts setting in as soon as in 20 minutes. If the pretext is that the Germans murdered the worker-prisoners last, then ran away, then the allies found the bodies just abandoned in the last days or even last hours, they would be somewhat to completely black. However, it is plausible that the film crews arrived 3 to 6 days later, and morgued bodies were brought in as needed to satisfy the ghouls, I mean the Directors as they needed them, and they could look freshly killed.

I have heard of claimed accounts of German Prisoners-Of-War claiming to have witnessed bodies being delivered for the filming, but I don't think there's any hard evidence of this which has been found yet.

It's reasonable to expect that in an overcrowded undersupplied camp there would be an increase in disease and mortality. There was of course a plausible explanation for the camps being undersupplied and prisoners starving, but that is conveniently stripped in main-stream accounts. And that is that Germany was bombed to smithereens as a country and was busy collapsing economically. Result: local shortages and also increasingly chaotic circumstances. With that fear upon hand, it's also to be expected that the stronger prisoners would secure resources at expense of the weaker ones. And that can be seen on late-war concentration camp footage as well. Some prisoners seem to be rather well-fed in relatively good conditions, while others are obviously malnourished. There is a twist to this, however. The Allies now had to pin all the guilt on the 'Nazis'/Germans and could not admit that the dying in concentration camps was a result of their very own methods of warfare. From there the zeal in pushing the narrative and also embellishing it. Good question, if they added to the picture by moving in corpses from elsewhere. It's not necessary, but I deem that possible given the methodical approach in the psychological warfare methods.

As for the Death Train that may have added to the Dachau Massacre as a trigger. What I would like to know more about is what contributed to the conditions on that train. E.g. air attacks on that train or the rails. I recall photos where there were holes that looked like from bullets, but think this needs to be researched more thoroughly.

[hermod]

they were unjustly taken into Nazi custody -- in the case of the Jews, the religion of their grandparents was pretty much the only unifying trait that they shared. And while in Nazi custody, they died. Who, therefore, bears the greatest responsibility for their deaths, if not the Nazis?

1) Chaim Weizmann, the top Zionist leader and 1st president of Israel, who made sure in 1939 that all the Jews would be regarded by National Socialists as citizens of a nation at war with the Third Reich. (Note that the "Japs" living in the United States and Canada in the 1940s were locked in concentration camps for less than that.)

https://postimg.cc/kRCKtPF5

Or in other words, the guy who, after kristallnacht, had also opposed the evacuation of the Jews living within the borders of the National Socialist state to any land that was not Palestine...

https://postimg.cc/4HtGF49S

https://postimg.cc/21TDtK1r

2) The Allied policy-makers who planned and ordered the aerial obliteration of Germany and who caused the big health disaster that killed those people in the pictures deceptively used to prove the Holocaust. No "total collapse" (in Bomber Harris' own words) without such a huge "devastation" (ditto). (The U.S. authorities didn't perform a great starvation experiement in Minnesota during WWII because they believed that their aerial policy would starve nobody.)

https://postimg.cc/HjmMMcN3

https://postimg.cc/V55fr8ZN

https://postimg.cc/cg5Lc9ty

https://postimg.cc/Mvt6YTwx

https://postimg.cc/5XJwrKR7

https://postimg.cc/MXq7M6vf

3) The German policy-maker(s) (Himmler?) who evacuated numerous forced laborers in order to avoid a 2nd unconditional surrender of their country within 27 years.

https://postimg.cc/dL4vVcFS

[Hektor]

they were unjustly taken into Nazi custody -- in the case of the Jews, the religion of their grandparents was pretty much the only unifying trait that they shared. And while in Nazi custody, they died. Who, therefore, bears the greatest responsibility for their deaths, if not the Nazis?

1) Chaim Weizmann, the top Zionist leader and 1st president of Israel, who made sure in 1939 that all the Jews would be regarded by National Socialists as citizens of a nation at war with the Third Reich. (Note that the "Japs" living in the United States and Canada in the 1940s were locked in concentration camps for less than that.)
.....
Or in other words, the guy who, after kristallnacht, had also opposed the evacuation of the Jews living within the borders of the National Socialist state to any land that was not Palestine...
....

The NS-policy to regard Jews as Aliens is however a bit older than 1939. The relationship was however not entirely hostile before that. This was something that unfolded over time. But Jewish hostility did start early. Already while Hitler became Chancellor of Germany this was the case ('Judea declares war on Germany') with the boycott of German goods. The issues was divisive among Jews, because there was also a conflict of interest in this (Jews trading with German firms for example). There were also debates among them on the matter:
https://archive.org/details/TheAntiGermanBoycott
That does not mean that the boycott didn't damage Germany's foreign trade or relationship with other countries. There was also the issue of bad mouthing of NS/Hitler/Germany in the foreign press. That was of course notice in NS-Germany as well. On the other hand there was a period were there was some good cooperation with NS-Germany by Zionist organizations. The Reichsvereinigung of Jews in Germany was mostly cooperating with the German authorities until the end of the war. Mind you, they acted as if there was no Holocaust until the end.

It should be noted that German measures towards Jews were merely a reaction to Jewish action as well as Allied action. They became tougher with time. Discrimination, Deprivation, Expropriation and Internment of Germans took place in Allied countries. But that matter is virtually ignored, when German policies towards Jews are discussed and presented. When actions against Germans come up, the same people will however immediately bring up supposed German actions, when crimes against Germans are pointed out. As far as historiographers are concerned, they demonstrate their bias and lack of sincereness on the matter by this.

2) The Allied policy-makers who planned and ordered the aerial obliteration of Germany and who caused the big health disaster that killed those people in the pictures deceptively used to prove the Holocaust. No "total collapse" (in Bomber Harris' own words) without such a huge "devastation" (ditto). (The U.S. authorities didn't perform a great starvation experiment in Minnesota during WWII because they believed that their aerial policy would starve nobody.)

As said, there where various reasons. As for the concentration camps in the East. There is indication that of the inmates didn't want to fall into the hands of the Red Army (as did many civilians). Given the knowledge they may have had of Bolshevik incursions in Eastern Europe, they obviously had reasons for this.

But yes, the German experience with what happened at the end of World War One combined with the demand for 'unconditional surrender' will have had huge influence on NS decision making. Also something that gets easily ignored.

[Hektor]

they were unjustly taken into Nazi custody -- in the case of the Jews, the religion of their grandparents was pretty much the only unifying trait that they shared. And while in Nazi custody, they died. Who, therefore, bears the greatest responsibility for their deaths, if not the Nazis?

1) Chaim Weizmann, the top Zionist leader and 1st president of Israel, who made sure in 1939 that all the Jews would be regarded by National Socialists as citizens of a nation at war with the Third Reich. (Note that the "Japs" living in the United States and Canada in the 1940s were locked in concentration camps for less than that.)
.....
Or in other words, the guy who, after kristallnacht, had also opposed the evacuation of the Jews living within the borders of the National Socialist state to any land that was not Palestine...
....

The NS-policy to regard Jews as Aliens is however a bit older than 1939. The relationship was however not entirely hostile before that. This was something that unfolded over time. But Jewish hostility did start early. Already while Hitler became Chancellor of Germany this was the case ('Judea declares war on Germany') with the boycott of German goods. The issues was divisive among Jews, because there was also a conflict of interest in this (Jews trading with German firms for example). There were also debates among them on the matter:
https://archive.org/details/TheAntiGermanBoycott
That does not mean that the boycott didn't damage Germany's foreign trade or relationship with other countries. There was also the issue of bad mouthing of NS/Hitler/Germany in the foreign press. That was of course notice in NS-Germany as well. On the other hand there was a period were there was some good cooperation with NS-Germany by Zionist organizations. The Reichsvereinigung of Jews in Germany was mostly cooperating with the German authorities until the end of the war. Mind you, they acted as if there was no Holocaust until the end.

It should be noted that German measures towards Jews were merely a reaction to Jewish action as well as Allied action. They became tougher with time. Discrimination, Deprivation, Expropriation and Internment of Germans took place in Allied countries. But that matter is virtually ignored, when German policies towards Jews are discussed and presented. When actions against Germans come up, the same people will however immediately bring up supposed German actions, when crimes against Germans are pointed out. As far as historiographers are concerned, they demonstrate their bias and lack of sincereness on the matter by this.

2) The Allied policy-makers who planned and ordered the aerial obliteration of Germany and who caused the big health disaster that killed those people in the pictures deceptively used to prove the Holocaust. No "total collapse" (in Bomber Harris' own words) without such a huge "devastation" (ditto). (The U.S. authorities didn't perform a great starvation experiment in Minnesota during WWII because they believed that their aerial policy would starve nobody.)

Also skipped from the narrative is the matter of Germany collapsing. Which would necessarily lead to the question, why that was happening. But it is pretty obvious that when infrastructure gets bombed and destroyed that this will also have economical effects like undersupply, which leads to 'people trying to help themselves', which leads to more undersupply. The effect was however useful for the later narrative creation given that starvation and undersupply will produce ugly pictures useful for dark propaganda efforts. And well the looting by former concentration camp inmates was the reason not simply releasing them. That was a huge dilemma in 1945. Of course all that needs to be ignored or belittled to maintain the extermination narrative.

But it even appears in the IMT transcript:

DR. KAUFFMANN: To what do you attribute the particularly bad and shameful conditions, which were ascertained by the entering Allied troops, and which to a certain extent were photographed and filmed?

HOESS: The catastrophic situation at the end of the war was due to the fact that, as a result of the destruction of the railway network and of the continuous bombing of the industrial plants, care for these masses-I am thinking of Auschwitz with its 140,000 internees-could no longer be assured. Improvised measures, truck columns, and everything else tried by the commanders to improve the situation were of little or no avail; it was no longer possible. The number of the sick became immense. There were next to no medical supplies; epidemics raged everywhere. Internees who were capable of work were used over and over again. By order of the Reichsfuehrer, even halfsick people had to be used wherever possible in industry. As a result every bit of space in the concentration camps which could possibly be used for lodging was overcrowded with sick and dying prisoners.
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/04-15-46.asp

(It appears that Hoess was allowed to say a lot of things that contradicted the narrative, with only the gassing/extermination tales being added and embedded in his testimony. Notably even exterminationist Historiographers don't believe anymore what Hoess said, although they assume that extermination/gassing is true anyway)
Starvation and undersupply persisted years after 1945. Not only in Germany, but also neighboring countries.

3) The German policy-maker(s) (Himmler?) who evacuated numerous forced laborers in order to avoid a 2nd unconditional surrender of their country within 27 years.
...

As said, there where various reasons. As for the concentration camps in the East. There is indication that of the inmates didn't want to fall into the hands of the Red Army (as did many civilians). Given the knowledge they may have had of Bolshevik incursions in Eastern Europe, they obviously had reasons for this.

But yes, the German experience with what happened at the end of World War One combined with the demand for 'unconditional surrender' will have had huge influence on NS decision making. Also something that gets easily ignored.