Did the Nazis Conduct Censuses of Occupied Territories?

[RyanFaulk]

I hear about lots of reports. Like, numbers of Jews presented at a Wansee conference. Are these just estimates from prior censuses that we can safely toss? What was Kohrerr basing his numbers on? Because looking at the claims from Kohrerr on the number of Jews being shipped out of the GG, it looks a lot like the AJY's 1939 estimate (which we know is just a simple extrapolation from the 1931 census) for Jews in Poland give or take some new borders.

Now I know that's super unlikely, but the average joe may go "The AJY said, plus it's been confirmed by the Nazis (the number of Jews in the GG), QED", when in reality the AJY 1939 is just a projection, and Kohrerr LOOKS like he's just copying that projection, then, somehow, being fed numbers on the number of Jews in the GG, and then subtracting the difference from AJY 1939, and saying "they left". Which would be close to true except for WHEN they left.

Basically, does anyone know how the Nazis were counting Jews? Did they have guys running around with clipboards? Or did they just crib the Polish gov't records and start there? Because it seems like the latter, in which case... the Nazi's probably didn't actually know how many Jews were in their demesne.

[PrudentRegret]

One point that is overlooked is I don't think all Jews that Korherr recorded as "deported" were physically deported outside of General Government. For example, Jews deported from the Białystok ghetto to labor camps in Lublin would have been recorded as "deported" in Korherr's report but would have physically existed in the General Government to be counted in various other estimates of Jewish population in GG. There was probably some double-counting in these deportations in, out, and within General Government.

The same occurred at Auschwitz-Birkenau, Jews were considered "deported" when they reached the camp even if they remained for labor.

[PrudentRegret]

Basically, does anyone know how the Nazis were counting Jews? Did they have guys running around with clipboards? Or did they just crib the Polish gov't records and start there? Because it seems like the latter, in which case... the Nazi's probably didn't actually know how many Jews were in their demesne.

The official narrative is that Einsatz Reinhardt was keeping a GG-wide tally of Jewish deportations during "Aktion Reinhardt", which is claimed to have been the massive deportation/extermination policy in GG that was managed by SSPF Lublin. The primary evidence for this is the Hoefle telegram, which is lacking in many ways. But since there is correspondence between that decode and Korherr's report it's inferred that SSPF Lublin/Einsatz Reinhardt is the source for the GG-wide tally of deportations.

Although Korherr himself wrote to Der Spiegel in the 1970s that he was told the deportations referred to Jews deported to Lublin, so the interpretation that all deported Jews were physically deported outside GG does not align with Korherr's impression of his own numbers. You could say Korherr was lying, but what motivation does he have to write to a newspaper and open a can of worms with a lie? You could say he was misled. Or, he was telling the truth. That would also mean a Jew deported from a Lublin ghetto to a Lublin camp would have been counted as "deported" for the purposes of that report.

I have also proposed that "Aktion Reinhardt" didn't even refer to the deportation initiative in GG (much less an extermination policy), it referred to an economic policy for the utilization of confiscated Jewish property.

[Archie]

If we take Nuremberg at face value, it was said that Eichmann had kept detailed statistics of the number of Jews killed (6,000,000) and gave this number to Hoettl. But there's no documentary evidence for that at all.

There are also numerous Einsatzgruppen reports that supposedly give numbers of Jews killed, often proclaiming a particular area to be "judenfrei." Whatever you want to say about the authenticity of these reports, the figures are greatly inflated and are evidently not statistically reliable. Either because there's something funny going on with the documents or because they exaggerated the numbers for their bosses.

The Wannsee conference statistics are odd. The total Jewish population of 11.3M is very high (with a split of 4.5M under German control and 6.8M outside of German control). The usual prewar figure is around 9.6M. And by January 1942, the Germans had already supposedly killed about 1,000,000 Jews and many others had fled. In which case 11.3M is too high by several million. And supposedly the Einsatzgruppen had been sending statistics with their crazy body counts. So then it seems Heydrich, Eichmann, et al were unaware of the Einsatzgruppen reports or they did not take the numbers seriously.

As far as I know, the Korherr report is the most serious Nazi effort that was made compile statistics on their progress on the Jewish question. Korherr's prewar population (10.3M in 1937) is maybe a little high but at least it's more reasonable than the Wannsee number.

...the reduction of the Jewish population of Europe from 1937 to the beginning of 1943 could be estimated at 4 and a half million.

Altogether, European Jewry must have been reduced by almost half since 1933, that is to say, during the first decade of the development of power of National Socialism.

Again half, that is a quarter of the total Jewish population of 1937, has fled to other countries.

According to Korherr there was around a 4.5M overall reduction but around half had "fled to other countries." If we assume the remainder were all killed that would give us a maximum of 2.25M killed but interestingly that is actually severely below the "official story." The Korherr report is from early 1943 and the data is through the end of 1942. By that point the Nazis supposedly had already killed around 4.5M (the deaths are unavoidably very front-loaded toward 1941-1942). Now, I guess someone could argue that the 2.25M could have been killed, but that requires some strong assumptions and we have to ignore several caveats.

Moreover, it was not possible to count all the deaths of the Soviet – Russian Jews in the occupied Eastern Territories while those in the remaining European part of Russia and on the front have not been included at all.

In addition to this there are masses of Jews who have fled from European Russia to Asian Russia and the emigration of Jews from the European countries outside German influence abroad is a largely unknown quantity.

Korherr seems to be saying he does not have data for the Eastern part of Russia and the occupied Easter Territories. So then like the Wannsee crew he's evidently unaware of the Einsatzgruppen "data" or he has chosen to disregard it. The way I read it he's simply saying he doesn't have good numbers for the area that is most of interest.

[HistorySpeaks]

I hear about lots of reports. Like, numbers of Jews presented at a Wansee conference. Are these just estimates from prior censuses that we can safely toss? What was Kohrerr basing his numbers on? Because looking at the claims from Kohrerr on the number of Jews being shipped out of the GG, it looks a lot like the AJY's 1939 estimate (which we know is just a simple extrapolation from the 1931 census) for Jews in Poland give or take some new borders.

Now I know that's super unlikely, but the average joe may go "The AJY said, plus it's been confirmed by the Nazis (the number of Jews in the GG), QED", when in reality the AJY 1939 is just a projection, and Kohrerr LOOKS like he's just copying that projection, then, somehow, being fed numbers on the number of Jews in the GG, and then subtracting the difference from AJY 1939, and saying "they left". Which would be close to true except for WHEN they left.

Basically, does anyone know how the Nazis were counting Jews? Did they have guys running around with clipboards? Or did they just crib the Polish gov't records and start there? Because it seems like the latter, in which case... the Nazi's probably didn't actually know how many Jews were in their demesne.

There are multiple studies and reports from government agencies, all of which show that the 'demographic estimates' on which you premised your 'alibi' video were false.

[HistorySpeaks]

By the way, yes, the Korherr data for Polish and other Jews was based on contemporaneous censuses.

Polish Jews for example were forced into ghettos by the Nazis, and made to carry out censuses:

"(3) The Jewish councils are to take an improvised census of the Jews in their local areas - broken down if possible by sex (age groups): a) up to 16 years of age, b) from 16 to 20 years of age, and c) over, as well as by principal occupation groups - and are to report the results in the shortest possible time."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/he ... ber-1939-2

[Lamprecht]

Are you going to post these censuses?

By the way, yes, the Korherr data for Polish and other Jews was based on contemporaneous censuses.

Polish Jews for example were forced into ghettos by the Nazis, and made to carry out censuses:

"(3) The Jewish councils are to take an improvised census of the Jews in their local areas - broken down if possible by sex (age groups): a) up to 16 years of age, b) from 16 to 20 years of age, and c) over, as well as by principal occupation groups - and are to report the results in the shortest possible time."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/he ... ber-1939-2

[Atigun]

If I have this correct, the Hoefle telegram states that 71,355 deportees were sent to Treblinka by December 31, 1942. It's claimed that 71,355 is a typo and should be 713,555 deported which matches the total number of deportees by Korherr. From "Treblinka" by Graf and Mattogno, we have the Kube letters and proof that 1,000 Jews were sent to Minsk. If the typo theory is correct, shouldn't Hoefle's telegram be for 712,355 to account for the 1,000 who were sent to Minsk? As is, Hoefle overstates the total number of deportees by 1,000.

The alternative is, of course, that the Hoefle telegram correctly states the number of deportees to Treblinka as 71,355.

[Archie]

If I have this correct, the Hoefle telegram states that 71,355 deportees were sent to Treblinka by December 31, 1942. It's claimed that 71,355 is a typo and should be 713,555 deported which matches the total number of deportees by Korherr. From "Treblinka" by Graf and Mattogno, we have the Kube letters and proof that 1,000 Jews were sent to Minsk. If the typo theory is correct, shouldn't Hoefle's telegram be for 712,355 to account for the 1,000 who were sent to Minsk? As is, Hoefle overstates the total number of deportees by 1,000.

The alternative is, of course, that the Hoefle telegram correctly states the number of deportees to Treblinka as 71,355.

The total of 1,274,166 is also in Hoefle, so that would suggest a typo.

I think in Korherr that total was Jews "evacuated" from the General Governemnt, so getting sent to Minsk would qualify. That would just be a problem of having ambiguous codewords. Maybe they should have had two evacuated categories: "evacuated" (wink, wink) and evacuated (for real)

[Fred zz]

I found this on Jewtube, just out
I do not endorse the message, just letting you know it is there.
This channel has many good interviews and speeches on other subjects about corruption etc.
Link is about IBM and the Germans in the 1940s
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTOpCqzOSoU

[Atigun]

Minsk is in what was then known as the Reichskommissariate Ostland, There was also a Reichskommissariate Ukraine. Korherr states:
"Evacuation to the East from Reich territory including the Protectorate and the district of Bialystok."
Are the Reichskommissariates synonymous with Protectorate?

[PrudentRegret]

If I have this correct, the Hoefle telegram states that 71,355 deportees were sent to Treblinka by December 31, 1942. It's claimed that 71,355 is a typo and should be 713,555 deported which matches the total number of deportees by Korherr. From "Treblinka" by Graf and Mattogno, we have the Kube letters and proof that 1,000 Jews were sent to Minsk. If the typo theory is correct, shouldn't Hoefle's telegram be for 712,355 to account for the 1,000 who were sent to Minsk? As is, Hoefle overstates the total number of deportees by 1,000.

The alternative is, of course, that the Hoefle telegram correctly states the number of deportees to Treblinka as 71,355.

Here's a famous image of sign at Treblinka:



"Treblinka, Treblinka," but here neither "Treblinka" even refers to either of the Treblinka camps. Hoefle didn't even write Treblinka, he wrote "T." It should not be assumed that because Hoefle wrote "T" that 712 thousand Jews set foot in the camp known as TII.

The "SS-Sonderkommando Treblinka" also referred to operations in the Treblinka quarry. TII was only part of the operation of the SS in the Treblinka area, and was not at all specified by Hoefle. The specific reference to TII in the Stroop report only gives more evidence that the vast majority of those deported were not sent to TII.

On the other hand, Caroline Colls has excavated significant material at Treblinka to support the notion that TII was primarily a property sorting camp and storage for Aktion Reinhardt, similar to the Pabianince sorting camp. Excavations have only uncovered property destroyed and buried by the SS and no mass graves.

[Hektor]

Minsk is in what was then known as the Reichskommissariate Ostland, There was also a Reichskommissariate Ukraine. Korherr states:
"Evacuation to the East from Reich territory including the Protectorate and the district of Bialystok."
Are the Reichskommissariates synonymous with Protectorate?

Protectorate would be Bohemia and Moravia.... The previous Czech state... After Slovakia separate from it, forming their own country.

[Atigun]

Thank you for both of your replies. I shall have to study the 1943 map and the Korherr report more closely to try to form a coherent opinion. At the moment I'm hopelessly confused. Mainly about the naming convention for the territories. I'll look for alternate sources.

[fireofice]

By the way, yes, the Korherr data for Polish and other Jews was based on contemporaneous censuses.

Polish Jews for example were forced into ghettos by the Nazis, and made to carry out censuses:

"(3) The Jewish councils are to take an improvised census of the Jews in their local areas - broken down if possible by sex (age groups): a) up to 16 years of age, b) from 16 to 20 years of age, and c) over, as well as by principal occupation groups - and are to report the results in the shortest possible time."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/he ... ber-1939-2

If Jews were carrying out censuses, they would probably have a motivation to exaggerate their numbers to make the Nazis feel overwhelmed and intimidated.