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Holocaust Law and Jewish Identity

Postby astro3 » 1 decade 2 months ago (Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:02 pm)

The French Gayssot Act of 1990, under which Faurisson was prosecuted, declares in its Article 1: ‘Toute discrimination fondée sur l'appartenance ou la non-appartenance à une ethnie, une nation, une race ou une religion est interdit.’
Faurisson famously stated that the logic of this Act was ‘clear as the blade of a Guillotine.’ But, hang on - do Jews comprise an ethnic group, a nation, a race or a religion?
The Oxford dictionary defines ‘ethnic’ as from Greek ethnikos 'heathen.' It meant neither Christian nor Jewish; pagan or heathen.

I believe that a process has taken place very recently which augurs the disintegration of Jewish self-identity:
Consider these 4 stages, all written by Jews:

1. 1976 Arthur Koestler, 'The 13th Tribe':
‘The story of the Khazar Empire, as it slowly emerges from the past, begins to look like the most cruel hoax which history has ever perpetrated.’


2. 2009 Schlomo Sands, ‘The Invention of the Jewish People’ written in Hebrew, is translated into English. This scholarly work establishes Koestler’s thesis, whereby European Jews derived from Asian Khazars who entered Eastern Europe a thousand years ago; while the descendents of the Hebrew peoples of the Bible are to be found in today’s Palestinians. Neither the totally-white Ashkenazi Jews nor the darker Sephardic Jews (originally from North Africa) have (Sand argued) any racial or genetic connection with the Holy Land. His interview ‘Shattering a National Mythology’ has been taken off youtube, but see: http://www.haaretz.com/general/shatteri ... y-1.242015) .

3. 2011 Gilad Atzman, 'The Wandering Who? An Exploration of Jewish Identity’ This brief, easy-to-read opus assumed and accepted the Sand thesis. It had an ironic tone:
In my formative years I blindly accepted everything they told us about our ‘collective’ Jewish past: the Kingdom of David, Massada, and the Holocaust: the soap, the lampshade, the death march and the six million.

But, some still claimed that an ‘Abraham gene’ existed, that genetic studies showed, etc. So, finally:

4. 2012 The geneticist Eran Alhaik (a New York jew) published his science study:‘The Missing Link of Jewish European ancestry, Contrasting the Rhineland and Khazar Hypothesis’, in: Genome Biology and Evolution, December 2012. It was based upon recent gene-sequencing of modern Caucasian populations and confirmed the Khazar-origin hypothesis. For comment see Veterans today,’ New Genome Study destroys Zionist claims to Palestine’ by Jim Dean. http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/03/01 ... palestine/

This big change has only happened very recently and one may not realise its importance. It means that henceforth the term ‘Jew’ can only be defined by the following psychotic torture process:
1. There were Hebrew tribes or a race described in the Bible.
2. These did not have a great diaspora and their descendents are today most likely found in the Holy Land
3. White Ashkenazis in Europe formulated the ‘right of return’ concept, to Jerusalem, where their race had never lived before.
4. The huge majority of ‘Jews’ in Europe have no religion, but have ancestral memories of eg observing the Sabbath.
5. ‘The Holocaust’ became a replacement religion.
6. They created ‘Israel’ by a continual genocidal ethnic-cleansing of the semitic people in Palestine.
7. They pretend to be semitic themselves.

Under these circumstances, is it worthwhile for the next person convicted in France under H-D legislation to contest the matter on these grounds? Jews are a social group – they are not a race, religion, nation or ethnic group.

......................
PS The Gayssot Act also made it an offence to doubt ‘the existence or size of the category of Crimes against Humanity as defined in the London Charter of 1945’, on the basis of which Nazi leaders were convicted. The London Charter set down laws and procedures by which the Nuremberg trials were conducted. Again i can’t see much of a problem here, in not doubting these categories, as defined, of crimes against Humanity etc. Correct me if I’m wrong, but that doesn’t command one to believe in any historical fact, does it?

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Re: Holocaust Law and Jewish Identity

Postby borjastick » 1 decade 2 months ago (Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:48 am)

astro3 this whole subject of jewishness and geographical identity is a fascinating one and though I have only really started to look at it recently I find it revealing on many levels already. We are often confronted with 'jewishness' or 'yiddishness' as if they are absolutes and yet without the holocaust being thrust down our throats at all opportunities, they would be meaningless.

It seems to me that jews are lost in a world that in some parts neither likes them nor wants them, this is of course not helped by the actions of israel over the palestinians. The zionists inward 'I'm a victim' mentality and the fact that they seems unable to realise that what they represent is often offensive to some people doesn't help them. Most religions or beliefs change, albeit slowly, to the social conditions and modern societies within which they exist. Even the Catholic church has changed a little over recent decades. But Judaism seems to have nowhere to go because it is defined purely by the holocaust, the lies, and the actions of israel since.

I think your section below sums it all up. The problem is they have cried wolf for far too long missing a good few golden chances to come clean about the holocaust details and actual death rates. In so doing they have lost the sympathy of many. If they want to be thought of as a race, or a people or a defined group which is based in history and has credibility they need to act as one. They should have a central voice. The fact that they don't proves to me their 'history' is just made up as they go along. The connection between eastern european yiddish jews and the holy land is full of holes. Rome speaks for Catholicism why is it that Judaism has no central control or voice? Israel talks about jews and their place in the world but has no remit to do so.

If it were not for the holocaust, what?
...............

This big change has only happened very recently and one may not realise its importance. It means that henceforth the term ‘Jew’ can only be defined by the following psychotic torture process:
1. There were Hebrew tribes or a race described in the Bible.
2. These did not have a great diaspora and their descendents are today most likely found in the Holy Land
3. White Ashkenazis in Europe formulated the ‘right of return’ concept, to Jerusalem, where their race had never lived before.
4. The huge majority of ‘Jews’ in Europe have no religion, but have ancestral memories of eg observing the Sabbath.
5. ‘The Holocaust’ became a replacement religion.
6. They created ‘Israel’ by a continual genocidal ethnic-cleansing of the semitic people in Palestine.
7. They pretend to be semitic themselves.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: Holocaust Law and Jewish Identity

Postby Spect3r » 1 decade 2 months ago (Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:24 am)

I always had a problem in understand exactly what is "Jewish Identity".

For the past thousands of years they never had anything that could be consider to give them "identity" as a people, other than their religious(?) believes.
They had no country, no common culture, nothing they can work out to be an "identity" for them as a People and/or Nation.

A good example that they don't have (or ever had) an "Identity" can be seen on how easy it is to get Israeli citizenship.

In every other so called "democratic country", to get nationality (excluding by marrying someone of that country) one has to been living in the country for a few years, must speak the language, have a work, pay taxes, know some of the country history, etc.

But to be a citizen of Israel one just has to be of Jewish religion, either by conviction or by birth.

Plus, how can a country that is formed by people from all around the world and that exists for less than 100 years have an "Identity"? Specially when lots of people that now lives in Israel, came from countries that used to be at war with each others for hundreds and hundreds of years?

To sum it up:

Dr. Sand's main argument is that until little more than a century ago, Jews thought of themselves as Jews only because they shared a common religion. At the turn of the 20th century, he said, Zionist Jews challenged this idea and started creating a national history by inventing the idea that Jews existed as a people separate from their religion.


http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=13569
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Re: Holocaust Law and Jewish Identity

Postby Hohenems » 1 decade 1 month ago (Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:37 pm)

Have any of you actually read Elhaik's paper? Because he doesn't say that Ashkenazi Jews aren't descended from Judeans. He just says they're more distantly descended than the Rhineland Hypothesis would suggest:

“I had the hardest time clearing myself from the mindset (of previous work),” Elhaik says. “I was on the train, thinking hard, when it came to me how to separate the questions. It was a great moment.” However, it would be a mistake, Elhaik says, to conclude present-day Jews have nothing to do with the ancient Judeans. “I found a signature of the Middle East. I’m not certain whether it suggests Judean or Iranian ancestry, but it's there.” Iranian, as well as Judean, Jews began joining the Khazarian empire as early as the 5th century B.C.E. “It might be strange given today's political situation, but it makes a lot of historical sense.”

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Re: Holocaust Law and Jewish Identity

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 1 month ago (Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:47 pm)

"Iranian or Judean"? Laughable spin.
Being conditioned to think in Jewish supremacist terms, the poor man would indeed have "the hardest time clearing myself from the mindset (of previous work)”.
IOW, the guy's under pressure to recant.

Hohenem's attempted spin quote seems desperate and reminds me of the double speak of the dim-witted Elie Wiesel.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/03/01 ... palestine/
Here's what Elhaik really says:
First these researchers decided what conclusion they wanted to find, and then they set off to find evidence to support it…It is my impression that their results were written before they began the research. First they shot the arrow – and then the painted a bull’s-eye around it.

and:
“….[they falsely] assumed that the Jews constitute a group that is genetically isolated from other nations.”

and:
The various groups of Jews in the world today do not share a common genetic origin. We are talking here about groups that are very heterogeneous and which are connected solely by religion…[the] genome of European Jews is a mosaic of ancient peoples and its origin is largely Khazar.

from the author of the article:
What Dr. Elhaik has discovered folks is a ‘reverse holocaust’, the inventing of huge numbers of pseudo-Jews who have no more a blood claim to the land of Palestine than I do, even if I converted.
But as we all know, most Jews are not religious, including in Israel where way more than most are not. Subtracting that, then all you have is the tribe, the DNA, which unites them to a shared history of persecution. But that folks, is now all gone. Poof…gone.

And of course none of Hohenem's attempted deflection can refute Elhaik's actual work, not to mention the work of Koestler, Sands, and Atzman.

The tide is turning.

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Re: Holocaust Law and Jewish Identity

Postby scythian » 1 decade 1 month ago (Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:31 pm)

There is a lot of misinformation out there and I would be careful treading those waters lest it be used against you (I say this from personal experience).

The Khazar theory can never be proven true because the modern Ashkenazi Jews along with the people who live in the Caucasus region (and even human fossils found in the Caucasus) carry on average 40% or more Y-DNA from the J haplogroup. Haplogroup J and its subclades are very Middle Eastern. They are not limited to the Middle East, but they are strongly associated with the Arabian Peninsula. On the maternal side, mtDNA is generally the same (with exceptions, but generally the same) throughout much of Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East. Ashkenazi Jews have other Y DNA haplogroups found in, for example, North Africa but the specific subclades are found on both sides of the Southern Red Sea. The rest is mostly European with a couple exceptions. One is Y-DNA haplogroup G which is mainly found in the Caucasus.

Herodotus wrote of curly-haired and swarthy-skinned "Egyptians" living on the East side of the Black Sea and practicing circumcision. He also said that some of the "Syrians" in Asia Minor practiced it too, learning it from the above group. Cassius Dio, when speaking of Roman Judea, says he does not know how the Judeans came to be called Judeans for that is the name of a class which exists among the Romans. He says the Judeans of Judea are of a "foreign race" alluding to as compared with the "Judeans" among the Romans. He says they both have the same customs.

Eusebius quoting Assyrian history says that Nebuchadnezzar re-settled Egyptians, Syrians, Phoenicians, and Jews (I think, going by memory here) to the East of the Black Sea. And speaking of Phoenicians, since they would have been Caananites closely related to the historical Hebrews, it is worth noting that this is probably where the haplogroup signatures from the Southern Red Sea came from since they traded along here.

There were other Jewish colonies or "settlements" in Asia Minor too, at least according to Greek historians. One thing I've noticed is that almost wherever Phoenicians traded or setup a colony (Spain, Carthage, Italy) there happens to be Jews later on. If what Cassius Dio wrote was true, there were apparently a lot of converts in Rome. Some probably became Christians later on. This is all before the Khazars ever step foot into history.

After Cyrus conquers all of the Middle East (and the Caucuses too by the way), we begin to hear about a separate group of people called Jews. Herodotus does not mention them though, he only mentions Syrians practicing circumcision. We know they exist around his time from the Elephantine letters. These "Jews" are even polytheists. Many "Jewish" religious practices are Phoenician such as the ark of the covenant (mobile temple), the menorah, and the hexagram (Seal of Solomon/Star of David not adopted until relatively recent history to symbolize all Jews.. even "Hebrew" the language is ancient Phoenician). Jews were everywhere, they existed among the Greeks, the Romans, and the Persians before there is ever a temple destroyed or some sort of expulsion. The "diaspora" biblical/historical explanation does not explain this. When there is a third party attack/expulsion, although the bible singles Jews out, the historical references also mention surrounding Egyptians, Phoenicians, and Syrians (Aramaic-speakers) being attacked which is what would be expected.

The Khazars were a Turkic Khaganate from the middle ages. History knows very little about them and I guarantee that some of what we know (the mass conversion story) is a myth. They were a Silk Road trading hub and many of the Silk Road merchants were Jewish (known to history as the Rhadanites). And they DID NOT speak Yiddish as some like to claim they did. Yiddish is closer to Southern German than to Slavic and the Slavic influence came from a West-to-East migration. Even still, genetically the Ashkenazi do have more in common with Eastern Europe populations than Western.

Jewish nationalism began a couple centuries ago, it accelerated with Zionism in the 19th century, and it culminated after WWII due to the holohoax. When you read about Israel sterilizing Ethiopian Jews with birth control, note that even the Ethiopian Jews share DNA haplogroups with other Jewish populations moreso than native African populations (making it ironic). Jewish identity is a bit more complex than what Gilad Atzmon thinks, although I must say that have much respect for Gilad Atzmon. There is an ethnic component to it and it wasn't invented in the Caucasus. My personal guess is it split off from the Phoenicians at some point around the time of Cyrus the Great and became a people apart. Much of this "people apart" I believe comes from the Babylonian period involving the elite priestly class. They were the ones who wanted to remain a people apart (even from followers) and this was corrupted into an entire group of people.

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Re: Holocaust Law and Jewish Identity

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 1 month ago (Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:23 pm)

Many old world atlases show the Khazar region with the label 'Jews'. It was well known. No myth, scythian.

Your statements about DNA, etc. are not sourced. You seem to be just winging it. Whereas the research of Koestler, Sands, Atzmon, and Elhaik are verifiable.

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Re: Holocaust Law and Jewish Identity

Postby scythian » 1 decade 1 month ago (Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:33 pm)

When I have a little extra time this week I will source it. Just keep in mind that DNA results can also be manipulated and samples can be misinterpreted (i.e. selectively ignored). The sources are mostly Jewish sources too so make what you will of that (genetics in general is dominated by a disproportionate number of Jewish scientists).

Not trying to be an apologist or anything like that nor debunk those guys' research. If 40% or more of the DNA signatures found in modern Ashkenazi Jews (and Caucasus peoples) is also found in the Middle East, the Khazar theory for their origin is only one part of the whole story. Not arguing that the Khazars weren't a Jewish kingdom. What I meant by myth was the mass conversion story as written in the "Khazar Correspondence", a letter allegedly dating to the 10th century. It mentions that the Khazar kingdom converted to Judaism after consulting with a Christian, Muslim, and Jew, then deciding that Judaism was neutral to the other two. The actual surviving letter is a copy from a few centuries later and the conversion story itself sounds just as historical as the Septuagint translation background story.

The conversion story is a part of a 12th century fictional book called Kuzari written by an Iberian Jew. It's a fictional book about the historial Khazars. We know the Khazars were a historical group of people and that there were Jews among them (and the King was Jewish) from Arab sources. There isn't a whole lot of history about that Khazars though, it's as if they disappeared. I would personally conjecture that this "erasure" is deliberate, but that's just me. This doesn't mean the entire kingdom didn't convert, it means the sources for the conversion story are probably fictional. If they converted, it probably had little to do with consulting a Christian, Muslim, and Jew and asking them questions. It is more likely they were already Jews or had many Jews among them. I'll write more later on and source it.

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Re: Holocaust Law and Jewish Identity

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 1 month ago (Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:44 pm)

Scythian:
... Not trying to be an apologist or anything like that nor debunk those guys' research. ...

Not to worry, you are entitled to your opinions at this forum. I just want to see sources, verification.

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Re: Holocaust Law and Jewish Identity

Postby borjastick » 1 decade 1 month ago (Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:14 am)

Seems to me the jewish claims on rights, ownership and control over the Holy Land is about as credible as Argentina's claims to the Falklands. They are trying to persuade us that because of their suffering, which they claim is worse than that of any other people in history, they have to be the Chosen Ones. If they can prove they are always under attack around the world from anti-semitism and physical attack they can justify their claims to the whole of the palestinian area.

The keystone of all this is the Holocaust, which they stick to relentlessly, they have no option as it is the single piece of history that they have managaed to manipulate to garner world sympathy etc.
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Re: Holocaust Law and Jewish Identity

Postby scythian » 1 decade 1 month ago (Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:09 pm)

borjastick wrote:Seems to me the jewish claims on rights, ownership and control over the Holy Land is about as credible as Argentina's claims to the Falklands.


Even if we pretend that Jewish biblical history matched the historical record (it doesn't) and even if we pretend that the modern Jews are the direct descendants of the ancient population (they're not, I'll explain in another post), their land claims are illegitimate and absurd. The last time Jews had a kingdom in Palestine was almost 2,000 years ago. Since that time, Romans, Arabs, Crusaders, and Turks have lived on the same land and for much longer than any Jews ever did. The infamous "United Monarchy" of Israel only last 100 years according to the bible itself and the historicity of it does not match the archeological record. The bible claims Solomon had control over vast territory and sent ships on long voyages to silver and gold mines. Egypt and Assyria were the only large kingdoms capable of doing these things and neither of them mention this "United Monarchy".

Even "historic" Jerusalem isn't Jewish Jerusalem which is supposed to have been destroyed down to the very foundation (including any temples, thus the so-called Wailing Wall cannot be the remnant of a Jewish temple and the only reason it is is because of a biblical prophecy saying one wall would remain; Jews used to wail at a different wall in the middle ages). Until Constantine named it (Christian) Jerusalem, it was called Aelia Capitolina. The framework is still Roman and later on it was Suleiman the Magnificent who built the walls around it. There was nothing Jewish about it until the 18th century when the Jewish Quarter was built.

When we apply the same standard as we do to everything else, Jewish claims to the land are absolutely baseless. Imagine the state of Lebanon trying to gain control over modern Carthage from Tunisia. And Carthage lasted centuries longer than any Jewish kingdom in Palestine. Their claim is not based on previous occupation of the land, it's based on a religious inheritance. "God gave it to us" would never hold up in a court of law but unfortunately that answer is acceptable to a large number of (mostly American) Christians.

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Re: Holocaust Law and Jewish Identity

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 1 month ago (Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:04 pm)

The lunatic Zionist claims (we were there first) to Israel, forgets about the Canaanites who, according to the Bible, were really there first.

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Re: Holocaust Law and Jewish Identity

Postby scythian » 1 decade 1 month ago (Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:17 pm)

Warning - Looonnng post. This is more or less my earlier post with sources. Basically what I was trying to say earlier was that Jewish identity has a few more layers than we're often led to believe. Even still, I agree with Gilad Atzmon's definition of Jewishness in terms of identity and politics. I also want to repeat that I do not disagree with the Khazar theory. I have issues with aspects of it, the same issues that others have historically had such as the authenticity of the Khazar correspondence (the only real "proof" of a mass conversion to Judaism) and the claim they spoke Yiddish. Otherwise, I mostly agree with the hypothesis with one major exception: There were already Jews in Europe and in the Caucasus. Meaning that Khazaria is not so much a starting point in terms of Ashkenazi Jewish identity. I'll start closer to the beginning:

In the 7th and 8th centuries BC, there is a kingdom or city in Palestine called Judah. This is attested on the Taylor Prism in reference to Sennacherib subjugating both the kingdom and its king [1]

There is also evidence that the elite citizens of this “Judah” were ‘deported’ into Babylon and elsewhere after being conquered by Nebuchadnezzar II. This is mentioned in the bible, but the bible is not a history book. Josephus, the Jewish historian, elaborates on this using a Babylonian historical reference:

And when he was relating the acts of this king, he describes to us how he sent his son Nabuchodonosor against Egypt, and against our land, with a great army, upon his being informed that they had revolted from him; and how, by that means, he subdued them all, and set our temple that was at Jerusalem on fire; nay, and removed our people entirely out of their own country, and transferred them to Babylon; when it so happened that our city was desolate during the interval of seventy years, until the days of Cyrus king of Persia. 133He then says, “That this Babylonian king conquered Egypt, and Syria, and Phoenicia, and Arabia; and exceeded in his exploits all that had reigned before him in Babylon and Chaldea.” 134A little after which, Berosus subjoins what follows in his History of Ancient Times. I will set down Berosus’s own accounts, which are these:— 135When Nabolassar, father of Nabuchodonosor, heard that the governor whom he had set over Egypt and over the parts of Celesyria and Phoenicia, had revolted from him, he was not able to bear it any longer; but committing certain parts of his army to his son Nabuchodonosor, who was then but young, he sent him against the rebel: 136Nabuchodonosor joined battle with him, and conquered him, and reduced the country under his dominion again. Now it so fell out, that his father Nabolassar fell into a distemper at this time, and died in the city of Babylon, after he had reigned twentynine years. 137But as he understood, in a little time, that his father Nabolassar was dead, he set the affairs of Egypt and the other countries in order, and committed the captives he had taken from the Jews, and Phoenicians, and Syrians, and of the nations belonging to Egypt, to some of his friends, that they might conduct that part of the forces that had on heavy armor, with the rest of his baggage, to Babylonia [2]


Eusebius also quotes from a Babylonian historical source regarding Nebuchadnezzar:

Megasthenes says that Nebuchadnezzar, who was mightier than Heracles, led his armies as far as Libya and Iberia. He conquered these countries, and settled some of their inhabitants on the right-hand shore of the Euxine Sea [3]


The Euxine Sea is the Black Sea. Iberia refers to Caucasian Iberia (modern Georgia) and not the Iberian Peninsula (Spain). These are among the earliest historical references to “Jews” and loosely correspond with late biblical events. Contrary to biblical belief, “Jews” do not really enter the historical record until the Persian conquest of the Levant by Cyrus the Great (6th century BC). Prior to this there is no real evidence that Jews, Hebrews, or Israelites ever existed (aside from the above), only religiously biased speculation and conjecture.

For example, it is claimed the 13th century BC Egyptian Merneptah Stele [4] contains the first reference to Israel in history. Unfortunately the people who are most interested in these things are the most biased. It does not say “Israel” because there are no vowels meaning it could be any word with the consonants SR. The inscription does not mention anything remotely biblical, it’s describing the Sea People invasion. Believing the inscription mentions “Israel” (the context refers to a people and not a geographic location) would make more historical sense in reference to the Aramaic speakers who called themselves (and are known to history as) Syrians. Indeed, another “biblical” artifact is the Kurkh stele of Shalmaneser III [5] which often translates “sirilaaa” to Israelite. This is to conform with the bible (1 Kings 22) where “Aram” is assumed to mean “Syria”, therefore the Kurkh stele’s reference to “Ahaabbu sirilaaa” is assumed to be an “Israelite” (to conform the context to the bible). After the 8th century BC “Assyrian conquest” of “Israel”, archeologists begin to translate names such as “sirilaaa” to Syria. The problem here is a biblical bias and an assumption that there is a difference between “Israel” and “Syria” which very well may be cognates, but don’t expect history to admit this anytime soon.

Prior to the "Babylonian conquest", there are references to “Salem” and possibly “Jerusalem” but even the bible admits the city was already called “Salem” by Canaanites. All sorts of crazy theories exist to “find” the “historical” exodus with some claiming the “Israelites” were Hyksos kings or that the Hebrews were Habiru. All of these theories are conjecture.

By the 5th century BC there are definitely Jews in existence and there is apparently a kingdom in Palestine called Judah (Yahu). The elephantine letters are among the oldest historical references to this. The Elephantine Jews were a polytheistic sect of Jews on the island of Elephantine in Egypt [6]. The Greek Historian Herodotus who lived around the same time, however, was not aware of any Jews. Not in Elephantine or in Palestine (which he appears to have visited):

For the people of Colchis are evidently Egyptian, and this I perceived
for myself before I heard it from others. So when I had come to
consider the matter I asked them both; and the Colchians had
remembrance of the Egyptians more than the Egyptians of the Colchians;
but the Egyptians said they believed that the Colchians were a portion
of the army of Sesostris. That this was so I conjectured myself not
only because they are dark-skinned and have curly hair (this of itself
amounts to nothing, for there are other races which are so), but also
still more because the Colchians, Egyptians, and Ethiopians alone of
all the races of men have practised circumcision from the first. The
Phenicians and the Syrians who dwell in Palestine confess
themselves that they have learnt it from the Egyptians, and the
Syrians about the river Thermodon and the river Parthenios, and
the Macronians, who are their neighbours, say that they have learnt it
lately from the Colchians
. These are the only races of men who
practise circumcision, and these evidently practise it in the same
manner as the Egyptians.[7]


If the “Syrians” of Palestine were the Jews, Herodotus apparently did not find their customs worth mentioning as later historians did (since they were so different from their own). It could be because, like the Elephantine Jews, the Jews were not really monotheistic at this time. Also keep in mind that ancient historians are not reliable for various reasons, especially Herodotus who would quote the local lore whether he believed it or not. Modern Egyptologists do not recognize the Sesotris story as historical.

It’s interesting that there are “Egyptians” practicing circumcision in Asia Minor and on the Eastern coast of the Black Sea near the Caucasus. This is where Eusebius quoting Megasthenes claims that Nebuchadnezzar settled people who he conquered while Josephus says it was “Babylon”. Something tells me there is a grain of truth buried here and this is all related.

2nd Century AD Roman historian Cassius Dio mentions something interesting about the Jews living in Rome:

This was the course of events at that time in Palestine; for this is the name that has been given from of old to the whole country extending from Phoenicia to Egypt along the inner sea. They have also another name that they have acquired: the country has been named Judaea, and the people themselves Jews. 17 1 I do not know how this title came to be given to them, but it applies also to all the rest of mankind, although of alien race, who affect their customs. This class exists even among the Romans, and though often repressed has increased to a very great extent and has won its way to the right of freedom in its observances. 2 They are distinguished from the rest of mankind in practically every detail of life, and especially by the fact that they do not honour any of the usual gods, but show extreme reverence for one particular divinity. They never had any statue of him even in Jerusalem itself, but believing him to be unnamable and invisible, they worship him in the most extravagant fashion on earth. 3 They built to him a temple p129that was extremely large and beautiful, except in so far as it was open and roofless,10 and likewise dedicated to him the day called the day of Saturn, on which, among many other most peculiar observances, they undertake no serious occupation.[8]


What he’s saying is that in the 2nd century AD there were “Jews” living in Rome of a different ethnic stock than the Jews of Roman Judea. They both practiced the same customs. This indicates that the Roman Jews were converts. It’s also possible they were early Christians (or “Chrestians”). If this is true, it goes against the “traditional” Jewish narrative, which claims they arrived as slaves due to their temple being destroyed.

Early historians were confused about where the Jews came from (it wasn’t until the spread of Christianity took over that they believed the Exodus account). Josephus allegedly quotes a historian named Clearchus of Soli with something rather… odd:

these Jews are derived from the Indian philosophers; they are named by the Indians Calami, and by the Syrians Judaei, and took their name from the country they inhabit, which is called Judea; but for the name of their city it is a very awkward one, for they call it Jerusalem [9]


Clearchus is supposedly quoting Aristotle here too. AFAIK, there is no class of Indian philosophers called Calami. As the personification of time, Shiva’s name is Kala when paired with Kali, but this has nothing to do with philosophy or Jews (with the exception that “time” as in father time is an aspect of “Saturn”)

Calami is also translated to Calami which in Latin means branches. The closest thing I can think of is the Ikshvaku Solar dynasty. Ikshvaku means sugar cane [10] and is a name that came about, according to Jainism, from a king who taught men to use the juice from it. These kings were born in Ayodhya, the same holy city where Rama was born in and has been translated as both Yudea and Lydia. Teaching men how to use the juice from a vine is awful very similar to the Dionysius mythos (instead of sugarcane it is a grapevine and the juice is wine). Dionysius was a “foreign” god associated with both the East and with India.

Tacitus[23] mentions a few of the theories floating around from the time about Jewish origins including that some claim they came from Crete and derive their name from Mt. Ida. If you compare many places in the Levant with Asia Minor you’ll see some repeating and phonetically similar names. I would conjecture that Lydia was related to some degree, at least in name. Anyways, Tacitus is one of a few historians who mention a possible Jewish connection with Dionysius:

From the fact, however, that their priests used to chant to the music of flutes and cymbals, and to wear garlands of ivy, and that a golden vine was found in the temple, some have thought that they worshipped father Liber, the conqueror of the East, though their institutions do not by any means harmonize with the theory; for Liber established a festive and cheerful worship, while the Jewish religion is tasteless and mean.[23]


Liber is Dionysius. Jews were also accused (in Rome) of spreading their religion as a mystery cult known as Zeus Sabazios, the Phrygian Dionysius. Dionysius in later times has been compared with Jesus due to parallels that exist in each of their mythos. And some claim “Jesus” spent time in India too.

I don’t know about Jews, but the Phoenicians probably did come from India (or somewhere in Asia):

These Phenicians dwelt in ancient time, as they themselves
report, upon the Erythraian Sea
, and thence they passed over and dwell
in the country along the sea coast of Syria; and this part of Syria
and all as far as Egypt is called Palestine. [11]


Erythraian Sea is generally believed to be the Persian Gulf (but could be.... a lot of things). Their trade routes most likely extended to India because cinnamon was native to Sri Lanka:

Cinnamon they collect in a yet more
marvellous manner than this: for where it grows and what land produces
it they are not able to tell, except only that some say (and it is a
probable account) that it grows in those regions where Dionysos was
brought up [12]


Possibly related (or possibly not), there appears to be some sort of a link between the Assyrians near the Persian Gulf and ancient Indian kingdoms in the Indus Valley. [13]

Historians don’t dispute that Phoenicians had trade routes up and down the Red Sea and all across the Mediterranean as far as Spain (and possibly even farther). They do dispute things that are probably related such as the “Land of Punt” known to the Egyptians which they believe was at the Southern end of the Red Sea[14]. Even the name “Punt” is phonetically similar to Phoenician. I think they don’t want to come out and say this for politically correct reasons though. On both sides of the Southern Red Sea there are Semitic groups of people who believe they are related to ancient Jews (more on that in a bit) such as some Ethiopians [15]

Phoenicians and the Jews have a shared history because they both lived in the land of Canaan and their traditions have similarities. The word Canaan itself is derived from a word, which Phoenicians used to use to refer to themselves (the name of the purple dye they used) [16]

The Jews share more than just a few “coincidental” traditions with Phoencians. Here is a drawing of a temple candle found in Carthage [17].

Image

Note the similarity to the Jewish Menorah. Even the Jewish “ark” is nothing unique. Here is a fragment of Phoencian history from [18] Sanchoniatho:

Agrouerus or Agrotes, of whom in Phœnicia there was a statue held in the highest veneration, and a temple drawn by yokes of oxen


Not a perfect match, but there are also portable “ark” like temples in other religions such as Shinto (Mikoshi).[19] There are other similarities in the Phoenician history:

But the auxiliaries of Ilus, who is Cronus, were called Eloeim, as it were, the allies of Cronus; being so called after Cronus


Elohim in the bible is supposed to be a “singular” name meaning god

Cronus offered up his only begotten son as a sacrifice to his father Ouranus, and circumcised himself, and compelled his allies to do the same


It goes on to "rationalize" sacrifice:

It was the custom among the ancients, in times of great calamity, in order to prevent the ruin of all, for the rulers of the city or nation to sacrifice to the avenging deities the most beloved of their children as the price of redemption: they who were devoted this purpose were offered mystically. For Cronus, whom the Phœnicians call Il, and who after his death was deified and instated in the planet which bears his name, when king, had by a nymph of the country called Anobret an only son, who on that account is styled Ieoud, for so the Phœnicians still call an only son


Ieoud, eh? :?

The “Star of David” (Hexagram) has been found in Khazaria, but it has also been found in a lot of places, especially associated with Paganism. It has also been found among Phoenician settlements [20], like in Carthage for example:

Image

It’s even found in Japan (this could be from a Buddhist influence though). According to some people there are parallels between Japanese traditions and “Jewish” traditions.[21] Maybe it’s not a Jewish influence at all, but rather a Phoenician one? I can only speculate. If you search for “Phoenician Jews” you’ll come across sites like this [22] one. Seems that others are aware of the similarities (most importantly language) without putting the clues together that perhaps the Jews sprung from the Phoenicians.

In summary, the Jews as a distinct people are only really known to history since the time of Cyrus the Great. They are mentioned in fragments of historical records about a century prior to this period, but before this there is really no distinction between Jews and other Canaanites such as the Phoenicians. The history of the Jews appears to be connected with the Phoenicians. Eventually they branched off, but even then the areas associated with Phoenician colonies and ports have traces of DNA signatures which are carried among various Jewish populations (even Ashkenazi Jews, among many other non-Jews as well).

Ashkenazi Y-DNA (fraternal)

This data is from a 2009 study [24] and since that time the classifications have changed. The sampling size is also not given in the study. The data is more or less in line with previous studies, however, the absence of R1a1a is very odd. In older studies, Ashkenazi Jews had more R1a Y-DNA than R1b Y-DNA which would make sense because R1a is more common in Eastern Europe. So take that into account and also note that the results of the study are presented from a Jewish perspective (volunteers were asked to classify themselves as either a Cohen, Levite, or Israelite ‘caste’). The percentages are approximate and averaged. Please note that in no way does this debunk the Khazar theory, nor is that the intent. It definitely supports it in part, but it also shows there is a Middle Eastern admixture (Askenazi percentage on left).

3% E1b1b1a (M78) – Found in East Africa, especially Southern Egypt and further South along the Red Sea. In 10%+ Berbers, 15% Tunisians, 40% Moroccan Arabs, and up to 50% or higher in various “horn of Africa”[25]

17% E1b1b1c (M123) – Both Sephardic Jews and Ashkenazi have this in common. Its distribution is all over the place and it’s pretty rare with the “highest” concentrations being in East Africa along the Red Sea.[26]

7% G2c (M377) – Now called G2b. Found in the Caucasus but also spotty in Eastern Europe. It is also found among Syrians, Lebanese, and Palestinians.[27]

17% J1 (M267) – Very common in the Arabian Peninsula (and found in smaller amounts all over North Africa and Eurasia)[28]

6% J2a (M410) – Found in the Caucasus [29]
14% J2a1b (M67) – Now called J-M67. Found in the Caucasus, Turkey, and Southern Europe [29]

7% Q1b (M378) – Found all over Europe and Asia in low frequencies. Exists in both Sephardic and Ashkenazi populations[30]

9% R1b1b2 (M269) – Concentrated in Western Europe[31]

2% R1b1 (P25) – Concentrated in Western Europe[32]

Ashkenazi mtDNA (maternal)

There is far less diversity among Ashkenazi mtDNA compared with Y-DNA. Haplogroups K and H are the most common mtDNA haplogroups found among Ashkenazi Jews. [33] Haplogroup K alone is found in over 40% of Ashkenazi Jews. These haplogroups are very common in Europe and to a degree they are also found in North Africa and the Middle East. There is nothing “uniquely Jewish” about it. The lack of diversity here is probably why Ashkenazi have many genetic disorders (founder effect).

Very rough approximation: On the male side, about half the Y-DNA can be attributed to the Caucasus with the other half derived from East Africa and the Arabian Peninsula. In terms of distribution, the “Caucasus DNA” isn’t exclusive to the Caucasus for the most part and the “Middle Eastern DNA” is not exclusive to the Middle East either. The question is whether or not there was a mass conversion among a Turkic clan of gentiles. The Khazar Correspondence is the only real proof of this and it’s authenticity has long been debated (as have many other distant correspondence letters.. Prestor John comes to mind)

There is a possibility that Jews lived in the Caucasus centuries prior to the Khazars ever existing, especially if the above ancient historians were somewhat accurate. Obviously later on there were population migrations in between periods (Scythians displacing Cimmerians, the Huns, various other ‘barbarians’ which the Persians enclosed behind the Caspian Gates) so it’s impossible to say.

Even though Ashkenazi Jews do have “Semitic” DNA, this does not give them a right to claim any land in Palestine (possessing DNA does not give you any rights to land owned by ancient people possessing the same DNA, especially not after 2,000 years). The “Semitic” haplogroups are mostly found outside of Palestine and ironically the few within are found among Palestinians (and Druze). Did they “acquire” it recently, over generations, or did they always have it? That’s also impossible to say.

Anyways, just keep in mind that because of the "Semitic" Y-DNA, the Khazar theory is impossible to prove. The evidence is good enough for you and I, but they can always spin the "Semitic" Y-DNA to their advantage. They cannot, however, debunk it. So I recommend being careful treading these waters since there is a lot of misinformation floating around. There were Jews in Europe (and the Caucasus) before there was a Khazaria. DNA evidence can be used to support this and in part to support a Middle Eastern origin whether or not that is the case (either in whole or in part). Hopefully this made sense (if anybody reads it that is!)

[1] Taylor Prism
http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/hi ... prism.aspx
[2] Josephus, Against Apion 132
http://lexundria.com/j_ap/1/wst
[3] Eusebius From the writings of Abydenus, about Nebuchadnezzar
http://attalus.org/translate/eusebius4.html
[4] Merneptah Stele
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/mern ... le-faq.htm
[5] Kurkh Stele –
http://sale-christadelphians.net/KurkhStele.html
[6] Elephantine Letters - http://www.kchanson.com/ancdocs/westsem/westsem.html
[7] Herodotus Histories 2:104
http://www.bostonleadershipbuilders.com ... book02.htm
[8]Cassius Dio 37:16.5
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... o/37*.html
[9] Josephus, Against Apion 132, quoting Clearchus of Soli quoting Aristotle (allegedly)
http://lexundria.com/j_ap/1/wst
[10] Ikshvaku – Sugar Cane
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikshvaku
[11]Herodotus Histories 7:89
http://www.bostonleadershipbuilders.com ... book07.htm
[12]Herodotus Histories 3:111
http://www.bostonleadershipbuilders.com ... book03.htm
[13] http://books.google.co.in/books?id=y4aV ... th&f=false
[14]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/egypt-punt.html
[15]http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/ejtoc.html
[16] The origin of the terms “Canaan” “Phoenician” and “Purple” by Michael C. Astour
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/5 ... 2149970337
[17]http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/non-iranian/Judaism/Persian_Judaism/book2/pt1.htm
[18] Sanchoniatho – Theology of the Phoencians
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/af/af01.htm
[19] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoshi
[20] http://gosai.com/writings/satkona-star- ... -of-goloka
[21] http://www5.ocn.ne.jp/~magi9/isracame.htm
[22] http://jewsandjoes.com/israelites-and-phoenicians.html
[23] Tacitus: History Book 5:2, 5:5
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/h05000.htm
[24] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2771134/
[25] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68
[26] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M123
[27] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G2b_(Y-DNA)
[28] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-P209
[29] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172
[30] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242
[31] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)
[32] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)
[33]http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201764a.html

Breker
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Re: Holocaust Law and Jewish Identity

Postby Breker » 1 decade 1 month ago (Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:47 pm)

Some rather tortuous positions from Scythian. I must say that I find the sources problematic. So many are Jewish sources, rarely trustworthy. Some are academic, equally untrustworthy, generally pandering to Jewish interests. And we have a plethora of Wikipedia sources where Judeo centrism is the norm. Cases in point: I suggest a look at Wiki blubbering about the "Holocaust", "antisemitism", and "Holocaust denial". In addition, this thread seems to have gone off the tracks as far as the guidelines are concerned.
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Revisionists are just the messengers, the impossibility of the "Holocaust" narrative is the message.

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Re: Holocaust Law and Jewish Identity

Postby Moderator » 1 decade 1 month ago (Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:47 pm)

In addition, this thread seems to have gone off the tracks as far as the guidelines are concerned.

Yes, let's get this thread back on topic. IOW, discuss how Jewish identity relates to the alleged "Holocaust''?
Thanks, M1
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.


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