New Denierbud video. "The CIA During World War II"

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Re: New Denierbud video. "The CIA During World War II"

Postby Hieldner » 3 months 1 week ago (Mon Feb 27, 2023 2:54 pm)

Walter Laqueur writes in Was keiner wissen wollte (engl.: The Terrible Secret) on p. 51:
After breaking the Americans’ code in early 1942, the Finnish secret service systematically intercepted radio traffic between Washington and European capitals. Finnish author Jukka Mäkelä writes in his 1967 book Im Rücken des Feindes, published in Frauenfeld, that the Finnish government was exceptionally well informed by intercepting the daily messages radioed from the American legation in Bern (p. 159). It was from there that most of the information about the “Final Solution” came in 1942.
This is from where the messages of the Polish/Jewish camp resistance were passed on to Donovan. Bern is also were Donovan’s employee Allen Dulles was stationed from November 1942.

Hektor wrote:If there was one thing there wasn't a shortage of, it was people starving and dying for all kinds of reasons.
The “walking skeletons” you see in the camps and outside are almost exclusively people who contracted typhus or some similar disease, in my opinion. You’d need to eat absolutely nothing for many weeks or months to be in such a shape just from starvation (there must be some information on this on the net, a “starvation timeline”). But there are always healthy and well fed prisoners around. So there would have to have been one exclusive group of prisoners who got absolutely nothing to eat and starved, which is improbable.

Hektor wrote:Americans now more engaged in 'cold war', Communist governments with establishing their power in the newly one countries.
This supposed “cold war” doesn’t completely square up e.g. with the Americans delivering wheat to the Soviets when they had shortages. Behind closed doors the governments got along quite well. The better the relations, the more Holocaust was shoved down the Germans’ throats. There was also a bit of a discussion at that time to “end the guilt cult,” see https://lbry.projectsegfau.lt/@ritterdermeinungsfreiheit:a/Armin-Mohler:e.

Hektor wrote:What amazes me is that well-trained historiographer that actually should know about the role of intelligence services and psychological warfare in war, never consider that those agencies
The people specializing in those fields are chosen by political considerations. They obviously need to have a very strong conviction that the Germans need to be reeducated (through lies), as some of them quite openly tell us. See e.g. Fritz Fischer, Michael Wolffsohn (he describes what happened to the Germans after World War 2 as “recivilization”) and his disciple Peter Longerich.

Hektor wrote:Even Eugen Kogon makes a friendly reference to the psychological warfare division for letting him write his pamphlet.
Just a side note for the casual reader, Kogon was the author of the Buchenwald report mentioned in Denierbud’s Buchenwald video. The Theory and Practice of Hell (English edition of Der SS-Staat) is the abridged book version of that report. It’s one, if not the most sold Holocaust book in Germany. It’s quite transparent about food rations and sanitation, I would say. But here’s the lampshade/shrunken head part from pp. 244–5:
Muller collaborated with Dr. Wagner, a Camp Medical Officer who was writing a doctor’s dissertation on tattoo markings. Both of them searched the whole camp for tattooed men, whom they ordered photographed. The prisoners were then called to the gatehouse by Commandant Koch, selected according to the magnificence of their tattoo markings, and sent to the hospital. Soon afterward the finest skin specimens would appear in the Pathology Section, where they were prepared and for years exhibited to SS visitors as particular treasures, Koch himself had an “artistic” tabic lamp fashioned of human bones for his own use, with a shade of human skin. The business got to be so popular among the SS that Muller received detailed suggestions about it from Berlin. Hundreds of human skins, prepared in different ways, were sent to Berlin, at the request of the Chief Medical Officer for concentration camps, SS Colonel Lolling. Muller also instructed Stockel and another prisoner working in the Pathology Section to prepare penknife cases and similar articles from human skin. Lolling, on his part, requested a written report on methods of shrinking human heads to the size of an orange, the art once practiced by South Sea cannibals. There was source material on this subject in American literature, which was located and sent to Lolling. The SS physicians then proceeded to prepare a number of heads by this process. There were three of these at Buchenwald, of which two were still in existence when the camp was liberated.
And here’s the gas chamber part (pp. 239–41):
At Auschwitz, however, there was a huge gas plant—actually at Birkenau, a part of Auschwitz—which embraced five crematories together with four gas bunkers built into the ground. Each of these had an average capacity of twelve to fifteen hundred persons. The fifth crematory had no furnaces. It was only a huge fire pit.

[…]

At the Auschwitz hospital patients of all kinds were never permitted to exceed ten per cent of the camp strength, Any excess numbers were automatically sent to the gas chambers. The personnel servicing this plant numbered about one thousand prisoners, all of them Jews. The victims were lined up before the pit naked and shot down by the SS, the bodies—or the wounded! —toppling directly into fire. The Camp Commandant, SS Captain Kramer, never missed these mass executions. He generally stood by beaming, slapping his thighs with glee when the scene grew especially exciting.

[…]

The gas chambers were simplicity itself, yet they were planned with diabolical ingenuity. Each chamber had the appearance of a public bath, and was so represented to the victims. In the dressing-rooms there were signs, in all the principal languages of Europe, instructing the prisoners to lie their shoes together and fold their clothes neatly to avoid loss.

[…]

Hot coffee was promised after the bath. From the dressing rooms the way led directly to the “bath,” where hydrocyanic acid gas was admitted through the shower heads and ventilator outlets as soon as the doors had been dosed. Death took as long as four or five minutes, depending on the amount of gas available. During this time the most dreadful screams could be heard from the men, women and children inside, as their lungs slowly ruptured. Any bodies that showed signs of life when the doors had been opened were clubbed into quiescence. The prisoners of the service squad then dragged out the bodies, stripped off any rings, and cut off the hair, which was bundled into sacks and shipped to plants for processing. (In 1944 a young Jew from Brno, Yanda Weiss, was a member of this squad, He is the source of the details here presented, which have been confirmed from other sources.)

The bodies were then stacked in piles of ten each SS Technical Sergeant Moll, in charge of the Auschwitz crematories, made his tour of inspection, after which the bodies were thrown into the furnaces or the fire pit, Moll was fond of placing naked women against the edge of the fire pit and watching them fall into the flames when they were shot in the abdomen. On one occasion he found a prisoner from the service squad in possession of a ring. He had the man drenched with gasoline and then set afire. Another man he suspended by the hands, shooting at him until the arm parted. He then repeated the process with the man's feet.

On another occasion Roll Call Officer Schillinger made an Italian dancer perform naked before the crematory. Taking advantage of a favorable moment, the woman approached him, siezed his gun, and shot him down. In the ensuing struggle she herself was killed, at least escaping death by gas.

[…]

According to the confession of Camp Commandant Hoss, during his reign alone, from 1942 to early 1944, some 2,500,000 persons were gassed at Auschwitz.
To provide soap for Germany … [Prof. Spanner] used, in the mode of the Shakespearean witches, racially and ethnically diverse corpses in his experiments … This defies the popular perception that the soap was made of “pure Jewish fat.” … We may consider this misperception a curious symptom of a purist and essentialist reading, or, at least, note that the tension between essentialism and utilitarianism reaches its peak in this misreading.

– Bożena Shallcross

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Re: New Denierbud video. "The CIA During World War II"

Postby Hektor » 3 months 1 week ago (Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:13 am)

There is also the issue of those that were sick in the camps being unable to fend for their food rations. Hence it is likely that they were deprived from it. I'd assume that the food supply became more meager over time. But who was in charge of food distribution in the camps?

Edward Tenenbaum mentions that in Buchenwald it was the Communist who controlled the food organisation:
3. Besides the top positions in the trustee organization, there were a number of key Communist strongholds in the administration of the camp. One was the food supply organization, through which favored groups received reasonable rations while others were brought to the starvation level. A second was the hospital (REVIER), staffed almost exclusively by Communists. Its facilities were largely devoted to caring for members of their party. All scarce drugs (and many were scarce at BUCHENWALD) were reserved for Communist patients, and hospital food was available for members of the Party even if not absolutely necessary.
https://archive.org/details/EdwardTenen ... 1/mode/2up


Despite of being part of the psychological warfare division, it seems to me as if Edward Tenenbaum (who is definitely biased for biographic reasons) tried to get a more balanced view on the matter. Perhaps he noticed what was being played there and saw what consequences that could have.

Kogon tried to distance himself from Fascism/National Socialism and picked the winning side. He knew what could be good for his career.
Kogon was in custody since the 1930s. He had a Jewish mother. But he did do his dissertation with Othmar Spann under the title 'Faschismus and Korporativstaat'. That's rather odd, if you know who this Mr. Spann was.

The key is however the role certain prisoner groups played within the camp system itself. That's a matter that will require some attention, I think. A theme in 'testimony' is frequently that it weren't the guards that were abusive, but the "Kapos".

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Re: New Denierbud video. "The CIA During World War II"

Postby Horhug » 3 months 1 week ago (Tue Feb 28, 2023 7:27 am)

Very interesting thread folks.

With the discussion of the OSS & pysch warfare roles in the holocaust narrative, I thought to mention Dr ( Donald ) Ewen Cameron, the Scots / Canadian psychiatrist, infamous for his expertise in torture, mind control, drugs, MK-ULTRA etc., who performed the "psychiatric evaluation" of Rudolf Hess at Nuremberg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Ewen_Cameron

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11323&p=85221&hilit=cameron#p85221
https://web.archive.org/web/20180705175 ... ranscript/

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Re: New Denierbud video. "The CIA During World War II"

Postby Hektor » 3 months 1 week ago (Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:36 am)

Horhug wrote:Very interesting thread folks.

With the discussion of the OSS & pysch warfare roles in the holocaust narrative, I thought to mention Dr ( Donald ) Ewen Cameron, the Scots / Canadian psychiatrist, infamous for his expertise in torture, mind control, drugs, MK-ULTRA etc., who performed the "psychiatric evaluation" of Rudolf Hess at Nuremberg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Ewen_Cameron

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11323&p=85221&hilit=cameron#p85221
https://web.archive.org/web/20180705175 ... ranscript/


Indeed an unsavvy character:
Before his arrival in Nuremberg, Cameron had written The Social Reorganization of Germany, in which he argued that German culture and its individual citizens would have to be transformed and reorganized. In his analysis, German culture was made up of people who had the need for status, worshipped strict order and regimentation, desired authoritarian leadership and had a deeply ingrained fear of other countries. The paper stated that German culture and its people would have offspring bound to become a threat to world peace in 30 years. To prevent this, the West would have to take measures to reorganize German society. Other similar psychiatric diagnoses of Germany were published during this time.[16]

Cameron next published Nuremberg and Its Significance. In this, he hoped to establish a suitable method to reinstate a form of justice in Germany that could prevent its society from recreating the attitudes that led it from the Great War to World War II. Cameron viewed German society throughout history as continually giving rise to fearsome aggression. He came up with the idea that if he presented the world and confronted the Germans with the atrocities committed during the war, the world and the Germans would refrain from repeated acts of extreme aggression.[citation needed]; if the greater population of Germany saw the atrocities of World War II, they would surely submit to a re-organized system of justice. Cameron decided that Germans would be most likely to commit atrocities due to their historical, biological, racial and cultural past and their particular psychological nature. All Germans on trial would be assessed according to the likeliness for committing the crime


This is priceless. He has a thesis in mind ("The Germans are guilty of war and atrocities") and then goes out to 'find evidence', which with that paradigm one will simply read into things there. Of course that is somehow something "typical German" and got noting to do with human nature in general, exculpating the Allies from any guilt in the process.
One only needs to look into the following:
* Need for Status.
* Need for order/regimentation
* need/respect for authority
Last time I looked this was a need for most societies. Especially when there is consensus that they want to achieve something like having a decent living, safety, peace, etc. It was true for the Allied countries as well. Rejecting status, order, rules, authority, etc. will lead to a 'war of all against all' in a society. An undesirable state. Which is exactly why dictatorships/authoritarian rule get established. People need legal certainty, order and a prospect of where they can go and what will give them esteem or social approval. Really, this is the 101 on social science. Didn't this man know this.
* Fear of other countries.
Given that Germany was invaded from all sides PRIOR to world war one during the Weimar period that should indeed not be surprising. But during the NS-era there were the Olympic Games in Germany. Lots of visitors from 'other countries' then. Apparently that went over without any problems.
He essentially argues in favor of a major 'Reeducation Program'. Which was implemented and apparently still is.
* "rise to fearsome aggression".
Except that this was far less than the Allied countries putting Germany on trial.
* "confronted the Germans with the atrocities committed during the war"
In other words gas lighting. And since the base for this is rather slim, they use the results of allied warfare against Germany and circumstantial events for this. E.g. people getting sick and starving in concentration camps.
Also the German justice system was mostly working fine. Sure there are hick-ups in this. Especially in periods of transformation. In fact most issues with the legal system were in the earlier Weimar period, when the legal system was actually abused by ruthless people to expropriate the more docile, compassionate, hard-working people in Germany. Or why does he think Germans did actually vote for the NSDAP... ? Which was pointing out exactly those abuses at the time. On an another note there is documentaries on Germans that did vote for Hitler from the 1980s. Elderly folks then. But they mostly agreed that it was about unemployment, lack of perspective, unsecure circumstances, corruption, violence (By communists) that they voted for the NSDAP. And as for justice/legal system. Statements about not being paid agreed wages/salaries for work rendered was a huge issue in that time as well. If the ruling parties don't deal with such gross abuses in their society one should not be surprised that people want a change in government (and culture) afterwards.

Among those Allied policy makers, their consultants and bureaucrats, there seems to have been the idea prevalent in essentially brainwashing the Germans via shaming, guilt-tripping, blame-shifting and other psychological techniques there. Now why did they expect this to work so well? Apparently they didn't believe themselves that the Germans were prone to cruelty and brutality. In fact hey believed the opposite that they were rather responsible people that had compassion with people that did suffer. Also, that they had a strong sense for justice. In other words the program uses premises contrary to what they actually allege to be the case.

That he's with Mk-Ultra and other 'projects' is interesting as well. Now one wonders, where and if such psy-ops were used as well after world war two.

While Germany remained to be a low crime society during the 1950s and 1960s... Apparently there was a growth in crime and aggressiveness in Germany since the late 1960s. It's the era of the RAF with their urban terrorism. Drug abuse went also onto the increase since that time. I'd say that reeducation takes time before it works. So earliest more significant results must have been from 1968, which is interestingly a tipping point in post war history. It's of course difficult to attribute causalities when investigating social phenomena. Was Reeducation the Cause or is the relationship rather circumstantial. Not sure, if this has ever been tried. I do however recall that there were some books written on this. Recall Gehlen, Schelsky and Motschmann to be important authors of literature critical of social and cultural developments in Germany. Present day politicians are sort of the kids of the 68ers. It's an irony that they want to attack Russia now. One can not make this sh!t up, it seems.

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Re: New Denierbud video. "The CIA During World War II"

Postby Hieldner » 3 months 1 week ago (Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:25 pm)

Hektor wrote:
Horhug wrote:Very interesting thread folks.

With the discussion of the OSS & pysch warfare roles in the holocaust narrative, I thought to mention Dr ( Donald ) Ewen Cameron, the Scots / Canadian psychiatrist, infamous for his expertise in torture, mind control, drugs, MK-ULTRA etc., who performed the "psychiatric evaluation" of Rudolf Hess at Nuremberg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Ewen_Cameron

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11323&p=85221&hilit=cameron#p85221
https://web.archive.org/web/20180705175 ... ranscript/


Indeed an unsavvy character:
Before his arrival in Nuremberg, Cameron had written The Social Reorganization of Germany
[…]
Cameron next published Nuremberg and Its Significance.

Cameron has been on my list of insane Psychologists and Psychiatrists for some time, but I didn’t realize his connection to the Nuremberg trials, so thanks for the clue. I can’t even find his two books above on Google Books, it looks like they’ve been memory holed.
Cameron started to distinguish populations between "the weak" and "the strong". Those with anxieties or insecurities and who had trouble with the state of the world were labelled as "the weak"; in Cameron's analysis, they could not cope with life and had to be isolated from society by "the strong". The mentally ill were thus labelled as not only sick, but also weak. Cameron further argued that "the weak" must not influence children. He promoted a philosophy where chaos could be prevented by removing the weak from society.[citation needed]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Ewen_Cameron
As Jews have attributed "weak" or feminine character traits to themselves and have had them attributed to them by others, see e.g. Franz Kafka, this would basically have been a program to remove (intellectual) Jews from society. LOL.

I have often found the theories put forth by these government spooks in academic positions to be completely harebrained. There are numerous examples of more or less publicly accepted justifications for a deliberate devious government program with very different goals than presented. The program (in this case, the transformation of German society into a mental asylum) must be described by a theory that seems superficially plausible, but the concrete implementation then totally contradicts the logical conclusions one might draw from this theory, which is often itself riddled with internal contradictions.

Here’s how genius Cameron tried to interrogate Hess (Wild Bill Donovan, p. 344):
When Rudolf Hess, Hitler’s onetime deputy, developed a convenient case of amnesia, claiming he could not remember his Nazi past, Donovan had a team of OSS psychologists and psychiatrists try to trick him. They showed Hess newsreels of him with Hitler and Göring at a Nazi Party rally and beamed a light at his face to study his reactions. The haggard-looking Hess, who was handcuffed to a guard, continued to feign his memory loss.


Hektor wrote:There is also the issue of those that were sick in the camps being unable to fend for their food rations. Hence it is likely that they were deprived from it. I'd assume that the food supply became more meager over time. But who was in charge of food distribution in the camps?

Edward Tenenbaum mentions that in Buchenwald it was the Communist who controlled the food organisation
Yes, the altruistic freedom fighting communists would have increased their own rations, but the camp guards wouldn’t have allowed them letting other prisoners starve in more than isolated cases, since it would have been in conflict with their orders.

Hektor wrote:Kogon tried to distance himself from Fascism/National Socialism and picked the winning side. He knew what could be good for his career.
Kogon was in custody since the 1930s. He had a Jewish mother. But he did do his dissertation with Othmar Spann under the title 'Faschismus and Korporativstaat'. That's rather odd, if you know who this Mr. Spann was.
Didn’t know that, thanks.
From 1933 he was editor of the journal Ständisches Leben, which was close to National Socialism. He approved of the book burnings, but not of the extent of anti-Semitism. Spann and his followers proposed concentrating Jews on German territory in "reservations" where they would live largely without rights. From 1935 onward, his ideas were increasingly attacked by Nazi organs as well. Between 1936 and 1938, when the NSDAP was banned in Austria, his little castle in Bergwerk was home to an illegal print shop.

In the course of the National Socialist purges of the faculty of the University of Vienna after the "Anschluss of Austria," Spann was also forcibly retired in 1938. The reason, however, was not an anti-national socialist stance, but rather his maneuvering between "authoritarian positions of the corporative state," German National Socialism, and the "Sudeten German movement."

In 1938 he was arrested and allegedly interned for four months in the Dachau concentration camp [...] A detention in the Dachau concentration camp, however, could not be proven in the archives.
Translation from https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Othmar_Spann
To provide soap for Germany … [Prof. Spanner] used, in the mode of the Shakespearean witches, racially and ethnically diverse corpses in his experiments … This defies the popular perception that the soap was made of “pure Jewish fat.” … We may consider this misperception a curious symptom of a purist and essentialist reading, or, at least, note that the tension between essentialism and utilitarianism reaches its peak in this misreading.

– Bożena Shallcross

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Re: New Denierbud video. "The CIA During World War II"

Postby Hektor » 3 months 1 week ago (Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:23 am)

Hieldner wrote:
Hektor wrote:
Horhug wrote:Very interesting thread folks.

With the discussion of the OSS & pysch warfare roles in the holocaust narrative, I thought to mention Dr ( Donald ) Ewen Cameron, the Scots / Canadian psychiatrist, infamous for his expertise in torture, mind control, drugs, MK-ULTRA etc., who performed the "psychiatric evaluation" of Rudolf Hess at Nuremberg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Ewen_Cameron

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11323&p=85221&hilit=cameron#p85221
https://web.archive.org/web/20180705175 ... ranscript/


Indeed an unsavvy character:
Before his arrival in Nuremberg, Cameron had written The Social Reorganization of Germany
[…]
Cameron next published Nuremberg and Its Significance.

Cameron has been on my list of insane Psychologists and Psychiatrists for some time, but I didn’t realize his connection to the Nuremberg trials, so thanks for the clue. I can’t even find his two books above on Google Books, it looks like they’ve been memory holed.
....

I'm sure those books are available somewhere. There must be copies of this in public libraries. So it may be worthwhile to search for the titles thoroughly and actually scan them.
Those are the titles of interest:
"The Social Reorganization of Germany"
"Nuremberg and Its Significance"

They may be scarce, but I'm sure they will be worthwhile to be obtained, read and evaluated. I expect the lingo to be euphemistic, though. The typically cryptic language of academics designed to impress people, but also to make rather dangerous, problematic stuff sound harmless.

That Cameron Character sure merits more investigation. I only became aware of him now. I realize that there are rather uncanny characters in humanities, especially in psychology... And that they do have subtle influences within academia that should not be investigate. Psychology as a field is of course old, although it wasn't named this prior to its emergence as a field in the 19th century. The Greeks did think and write about the soul. The soul is mentioned early in Genesis and the NT texts heavily deal with the issue of Spirit and Soul. It is however difficult to grasp as a concept one somehow is aware it exists, but what, how it is and what it does and how it interacts isn't so easy to be sure about. Well, with the emergence of Christianity the soul/psyche became part of theology there about anthropology and a lot of intellectual questions related to the soul. With the enlightenment era it became part of philosophy separated from theology and then in the 19th century it became a field of its own. In the beginning it was merely a field of interest to the intellectually curious people. But it soon ermerged that there were other uses for it as well. E.g. to influence people commercially or politically. Another issue is psychological suffering of people and one could offer those people some help. To me it does not look as if people are getting saner, though. Important figures in psychology were Wilhelm Wundt (who did write extensively about it). Later figures were Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung and others. Freudianism is a bit more adventurous as Wundt on the matter. And Psychoanalysis got cult like features to it as well. It gets "answers to anything" as well as something being a hypothesis on page 1 getting a fact on page 38, from it is never questioned again. But since it is believed it comes into use. And it gets more and more manipulative. It seems there was an explosion during the 1920s in that field. And that the field was especially attractive to left-leaning Jews as well. The Frankfurt School being a primary example. Where to place Cameron politically is of course another matter. He appears to be more 'conservative', but in his Wiki-entry it says "Cameron argued that it was necessary for behavioral scientists to act as the social planners of society, and that the United Nations could provide a conduit for implementing his ideas for applying psychiatric elements to global governance and politics." He sounds more like a globalist, there. Or globalitarian to say it more clear. It's the progressive era ideas applied to global politics. "One World" and "New World Order" are some keywords there. A difference to previous political leaders is that those still respected the private sphere and also to inner sphere (spirit and soul) of people. It was however a domain of the 'church' in previous ages. That has changed during the 19th century, the churches lost most of their cultural and social influence over time and other institution like government, media, education, academia, hence fields of cultural production took this over. With that power gets more transcendent and centralised. With the deconstruction of sovereign nations, global dominance of a centralist, transcendent group becomes a possibility. They will have a claim to omniscience and omnipresence. Essentially claiming divine attributes to themselves. They will claim it for 'the good of mankind' of course. But this is pretty insane, since any other tyranny did claim this as well.In other words, it ain't trustworthy, not at all. Highly dangerous in fact. But also highly attractive to many, both the wicked and the gullible at the same time.

"Feminine Jews".
My experience with Jews has been that they tend to denigrate women and that the status balance in their communities is strongly in favor of males. There is even famous examples of this. Read the Albert Einstein letters to his one wife. Quite shocking. I get it that a male has to assert his authority in a relationship at times. But being this vicious and mean? No, but no thank, you. There is of course a spectrum of views and practices within the Jewish community as well. The number of passively-agressive personalities seems to be higher though than with non-Jews. Playing the victim, while being the aggressor is one example with this.

'Germany as Insane Asylum"
It sounds so preposterous on its face, that of face value most people would take this seriously. But it seems to have been the consensus among the Allies, especially from the American side. Concerning Academics... Simply compare the performance in the arts and sciences on international levels. The Germans easily thwarted the others on this before world war two and world war one. That has of course led to a lot of envy among educated upper class people. And that's why germanophobia spread that easily. Now turning a country into an insane asylum is a convenient way to get rid of ones competition for a long time. That the Germans have been dumbed down since the 1950s is even admitted in Germany now. The soc. Pisastudien are one example. Also, while the number of people with academic backgrounds as been more than trippled, I don't see the Germans as smart as they used to be. They are also not that practical smart as their ancestors were. And this is def. a cultural issue.

The purpose of an insane asylum is of course to make people controllable. Usually the reasoning there is that insane people can be very dangerous. Indeed they do. But it seems that the Germans aren't especially dangerous at all. That's unless you are driving them too far of course.


"Rudolf Hess"
It actually sounds like from a horror movie. Where mad scientists try to experiment on sane people to get them comply.
Rudolf Hess had been in British captivity for 5 years. And I think he was mostly in isolation arrest. That will take its toll. Especially when those nut-cases tried to experiment on him. The isolation imprisonment continued in Spandau. I recall his care-takers being Arabs (Hess was born in Egypt and spend his youth there, so I think he spoke Arabic as well). There is good indication that he was murdered, before he was released. Someone was very afraid about what would happen, if he would be interviewed by the media.

Internal Camp administration.
There are many ways to use an administration in nefarious ways without control institutions noticing. The whole system of communism is based on lying and deceit. Those that lived in Eastern Block countries and had a sober mind could tell you in more details. Except for the more extreme atrocious policies. The normal policies took a toll as well. Most folks there did however realise this and also realise that they'd be powerless against it. So you got an 'inner immigration' phenomenon there. People being ostensibly compliant, but actually having retreated into the private sphere... spending their spare time with hobbies and close friends tending to 'apolitical subjects' (like playing chess, breeding rabbits or the like).

The Eugen Kogon biography also warrants more attention. He was a star after world war two for a couple of years. But that also faded away. The pamphlet collection 'Der SS-STAAT' remained more popular for longer. The good thing about it is actually that it is occasionally very blatant in many ways. And well, it tells us about the sponsors of this opus. Thinkin back, if I'd have known what I know now in the past. I would have loved to have confronted the Holocaust Pushers with this. Not "Denying the Holocaust", but asking them about Eugen Kogon, how reliable his sources are and what the role of 'psychological warfare division' was in all this. The problem is that most folks can't process what that means. They don't realise what the function of 'psychological warfare' is. It sounds too much like a 'medical term'... So they probably wonder: "Aren't they there to help people?".

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Re: New Denierbud video. "The CIA During World War II"

Postby hermod » 3 months 1 week ago (Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:48 am)

"[Austen Chamberlain] has done western civilization a great service by refuting at least one of the slanders against the Germans
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed.
"

Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925

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Re: New Denierbud video. "The CIA During World War II"

Postby Hieldner » 3 months 1 week ago (Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:02 pm)

Re: Hoettl

The Austrian Hoettl’s “six million” testimony seems to have been part of a deal to prevent Austria from being occupied by the Soviets.
Perhaps the NKVD also knew that during the second week of April, while Dulles discussed SUNRISE with Donovan in Paris, one of his OSS aides was meeting in Zurich with Wilhelm Hoettl, a top Austrian Gestapo official. Hoettl offered, on behalf of Himmler’s deputy, Kaltenbrunner, to prevent the Fuehrer and his fellow fanatics from retreating to an “alpine redoubt” where they might continue a guerilla war against the Allies. In return, the Germans asked that the Red Army be prevented from participation in the occupation of Austria. (The threat of the redoubt, which later proved to be a German myth, was a major headache for military men in Washington; thirty OSS agents recruited by the French and Belgian sections of SO had parachuted into Southern Bavaria and the Austrian Tyrol to await a possible Nazi retreat to the Alps.)
Richard Harris Smith. OSS: The Secret History of America’s First Central Intelligence, p. 232–3. He in turn quotes Millard Preston Goodfellow, Papers and Correspondence. The Hoover Institution on War, Revolution, and Peace, Stanford University.

Re: "The Social Reorganization of Germany", "Nuremberg and Its Significance"

These are supposed to be articles (not books) by D.E. Cameron, of which I’m not yet convinced that they exist at all, because I can’t find them anywhere. They are quoted in this pamphlet https://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1989/eirv16n40-19891006/eirv16n40-19891006_026-satans_helpers_nazi_doctors_in_a.pdf, Satan’s Helpers: Nazi Doctors in America. Cameron’s Wikipedia entry looks like it was gleaned in part from this, well, not very solid and unreferenced source. The quotes therein from Cameron’s article Frontiers of Social Psychiatry are correct, however. He writes
We may illustrate what has been said by reference to the cultural pattern of Nazi Germany. Here we saw a remarkable development of the hierarchical system, each individual being dominant over someone else and in turn subordinate to someone else. The father was a führer in his home, and someone's obsequious servant as soon as he stepped outside. The consequence of this was a most serious decrease in the sense of responsibility felt by the individual toward his fellows. From the frustrations which he experienced at the hands of those over him, there arose endless hostilities which were directed either against his subordinates, or, when on a national scale they grew so great as to threaten disruption, against a scapegoat, the Jews.
In rigidly hierarchical systems, women commonly occupy a subordinate position, and this was true of Germany. Because women were held to be inferior persons, and perhaps in greater measure because of the dominant rôle of the father, male homosexuality was the more common.
Well, this is standard hobby psychologist quack, but nothing sinister.

Some of Dr. Cameron’s suggestions had struck Dulles as original and far-reaching—such as his proposal that after the war each surviving German over the age of twelve should receive a short course of electroshock treatment to burn out any remaining vestige of Nazism.
Gordon Thomas, Journey Into Madness, p. 152.

Gordon Thomas is an ex-BBC journalist, and his book is based to a large extent on “depositions” and “affidavits” by Cameron’s psychotherapy “survivors”. I’m not convinced this journalist and the survivor testimonies are more reliable than in any other case (e.g. the Holocaust :wink:).

In the end, I am not so sure about D.E. Cameron after all. There definitely was and is a “social reorganization of Germany,” and it was obviously thought up by crackpots and lunatics. But for me, so far, there is hardly any evidence that Cameron had much influence on it.

Re: Rudolf Hess interrogation

The psychologists blinded Hess with a bright light during the interrogation, just like all the defendants were blinded by bright spotlights during the whole trial. Is there any source on what effect this is supposed to achieve? I imagine, it is done for intimidation, but a source would be nice.

Re: Feminine Jews

I didn’t talk about the treatment of (Jewish) women, but of female-like character traits of Jews. There are Jews and non-Jews who expressed this opinion. There’s also a study on the increased likeliness for Jews to have some mental disease. According to what D.E. Cameron writes in Frontiers of Social Psychiatry, such individuals would have to be isolated from society.
To provide soap for Germany … [Prof. Spanner] used, in the mode of the Shakespearean witches, racially and ethnically diverse corpses in his experiments … This defies the popular perception that the soap was made of “pure Jewish fat.” … We may consider this misperception a curious symptom of a purist and essentialist reading, or, at least, note that the tension between essentialism and utilitarianism reaches its peak in this misreading.

– Bożena Shallcross

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Re: New Denierbud video. "The CIA During World War II"

Postby Kremawurst » 3 months 1 week ago (Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:42 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:Hi everybody, I made a new video. It's only 10 minutes long. Would like to hear what you think.

https://odysee.com/@Denierbud:0/ciaduringworldwar2:1


Hello! Had no idea you were Denierbud. Good to see you're still around. I haven't been around much Revisionist stuff lately and started reading some of the new Handbooks again and began wondering where some of the guys went off to. I hope things are well with you.

This video was disappointing in a sense because it was so short. It's dynamite and there's so much more to cover that it left me wanting more. I knew the Soviets had put up false witnesses at Nuremberg and other trials, but silly me, I hadn't thought the US would stoop so low. I should have known. It's very disheartening to see the US government do this, but at this point nothing really surprises me anymore. I knew Nuremberg was an orgy of ethnoreligious retaliation but Washington's active collusion is just sickening. I fear this country stopped being our country a very long time ago.

I have had to explain this to so many people who think Nuremberg was a fair trial simply because the accused had lawyers. When your lawyer cannot introduce exonerating evidence, cross-examine witnesses, obtain discovery or challenge ex post facto laws, that's not a lawyer and that's not a court. It's theater. In fact, psychological warfare waged upon Americans.

This reminds me I need to read my copy of Psychological Warfare Against Nazi Germany: The Sykewar Campaign D-Day to VE-Day by one Daniel Lerner.

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Re: New Denierbud video. "The CIA During World War II"

Postby Hektor » 3 months 1 week ago (Thu Mar 02, 2023 6:18 am)

@Hermod

"Secret Records reveal six million Jews slaughtered".
Yeah right, but one can not even show those 'records' let alone demonstrate that there is empirical merits to them. It's the usual shell game playing hide and seek with the evidence. You know who also does act like this? Fraudsters. That's why one should immediately cut all ties with that kind of actors. But instead they seem to get into all positions of prominence: Academia, Journalism, government officials, church. Now a society political structure can handle a few of those. It should be manageable, but when it goes over a approximate level and especially when they gain dominance and the behavior become more normative, it gets dangerous for those organizations and all people they do have some power or influence overt. This is how I imagine ancient civilizations did collapsed. The dupes, fraudsters and functionally insane taking over the show there. Not immediately of course, but slowly, but certainly, because the previous core group submitted to dictates of 'tolerance' and 'compassion' with those that 'are different'.



@Hieldner
Hoettl seems to be the type of guy that knows how the wind is blowing. Gaining compliance in 1945 was relatively easy. "If you are not compliant", imagine what could happen to your family, if they were transferred to the Soviets. Especially people that had access to intelligence reports on what was happening in Eastern Europe would not be eager to want something like this. There is of course even more subtle methods of 'coercive persuasion'. But with Hoettl I doubt much would have been necessary. He was 30 years at that stage. Essentially having most of his life still in front of him. He live another 55 years. .

Even wiki admits:
Work for US Army intelligence
Höttl was released from confinement in December 1947 and the US Army refused his extradition to the Austrian People's Courts, which at the time took action against Nazi perpetrators.[5] In March 1948 he got in contact with the CIC and became subsequently control chief of two espionage operations, namely "MOUNT VERNON" and "MONTGOMERY".[3] His task was to conduct espionage against the Communist Party of Austria and Soviet activities in the Soviet-occupied part of Austria.[3] Höttl was described by the CIC as "an excellent source for ideas, both concrete and theoretical, on the expansion of American Intelligence in Austria."[3]

Later life
In 1952 Höttl opened a school in Bad Aussee and served as its director until 1980. Under the name Walter Hagen he wrote the books The Secret Front (Enigma Books, 1954) and Unternehmen Bernhard. Ein historischer Tatsachenbericht über die größte Geldfälscheraktion aller Zeiten (Welsermühl Verlag, Wels 1955), a historical report on the biggest currency counterfeit operation in history (the Germans had printed millions of British pounds). Under his own name he later published Einsatz für das Reich. Im Auslandsgeheimdienst des Dritten Reiches, (Siegfried Bublies, Koblenz 1997, ISBN 3-926584-41-6).

Höttl received a cross of merit for his work as a historian and as a school director, despite the protest of surviving Nazi victims. Höttl died 27 June 1999 in Altaussee, Austria, aged 84.

Clearly took a lucrative path there.
Opening a school wasn't cheap either. I doubt he earned that money from a normal salary. We had a nice word for that kind of people: A joiner.
Also, getting decorated by left-leaning or cuckish Austrian governments, while being an ardent 'NAZI'. Sorry I don't think so, but I guess there were several placements inside the Austrian structure who were helping each other.




I'd be surprised, if the Cameron-articles were made up entirely. It was probably published in a smaller volume and didn't get that much attention at the time. What was flooding international media and caught attention was the course of the war and of course atrocity propaganda. And lots of people including intellectuals were rather askind in 1945 Quo-Vadis? Some exotic academic won't be of that much interest. And I think people didn't expect a shrink to say anything meaningful on the matter anyway. Especially in democracies people are under the impression that they are the ones that decide and that they 'can't be influenced by propaganda and psychological trickery'. That was actually only realized after the 1945 after American prisoners were subject to brain washing and thought reform as POW of the Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese etc. Edgar Schein wrote on this, but so did Robert Lifton. In fact lots of Lifton's examples deal with observations in Communist China.

Concerning "Psychoanalyzing Nazi-Germany", I realize that most of what was written about it, is actually quackery. It still is the foundation and motivation for the Reeducation or Thought-Reform Program that followed. It served in terms of target definition. They were aiming for family, fatherhood, folk, national culture, respect for authority, tradition, etc. First get the youth rebellious and turn them against the elders. When confusion comes in work on them via academia and media to give them 'a new value system'. That's in short was done. I think Lewin had more on this to say. Don't forget that a large number of psychologists, sociologists, etc. were employed and involved in the Program. It's a far bigger deal than most people think today. And while participants may think that they were 'fighting the Nazis'... The real aim was to devastate Germany culture completely over time.

Cameron may have been one of the extremists there. And I think one reason for the initial lack of success of the program (before 1960) was that the methods were far to blunt. And most people may not deny the accusation, but from memory knew that they aren't actually believable. The success with the program came actually only after time went on, memories faded and cultural production became a substitute for those memories. What gave it the edge was that those preaching Holocaustianity and 'the new values' were actually Germans from educated families that became teachers, academics, journalist, preachers, etc. "If even our smart people say it, than it must be somehow true". That they would have to rely on German collaborators was already pointed out early in the Program. Someone with an American or Yiddish Accent telling them that "The NAZIS were monsters" would quickly be ridiculed in private conversations. And it is those private conversations were the actual forming of opinions takes place (plus the inner thought processes). What's given by media and education is only giving keywords and setting an agenda on what to discuss.



'Interrogation techniques"
I heard about this. Supposedly it's done to annoy a person and get making the person contact. Probably it is just a way to distress a person so 'it opens up' and starts a conversation.
One would have to look into it. Also: Who is more likely to make a false confession? A hardened criminal or someone that is actually innocent and finds himself confronted with repetitive monstrous accusations all over the media?

'Feminine traits' What I meant was that in the community females don't count a lot. Usually public behavior then starts to appear to be 'more masculine'. That's my experience with e.g. Muslims or Black communities. But it all depends about what more specifically one is talking about. Feminine behavior tends to be 'more compliant', more towards group norms, more average, more emotional, etc. It is also more manipulative and more indirect in its approach. So some of it may indeed more prevalent among Jewish males than with the members of other communities. But there is a general trend to disparage 'male behavior'. That is then defined as 'toxic masculinity'. Being dominant, energetic, competitive, showing initiative, actually also being more rational and cool in ones approach... has been made more suspect over the years. That has been done by picking outliers like violent criminals or rapists and putting them into a bad light as examples for 'toxic masculinity'. That seems to be the technique of choice, pick the exceptional and make it the representative of a group. If those are good examples motivations within the group to perform go up. But if it is bad examples, ugly ones, hated ones than people start distancing themselves from this.

This is also done with political ideologies or religions. Statements from them will be over a large spectrum and so will be representatives. If you want to promote it, pick the 'good examples' where they appear just and intelligent. If denigration is the aim simply pick some idiots out of the group and select rather harsh statements from them. Also list accusations against that political group and be repetitive with what you tell there. The result is a distortion of historical realties, which can even lead into superstition. Myths are created giving the whole thing power. The Ukraine conflict is a recent example for this. What's different to me compared to the past is that it is getting more surreal in my observation. Putin being called 'another Hitler'. he himself stating he wants to denazify Ukraine. The leader of Ukraine being a lewd type of Jew. New Left Western politicians (whose party's always wrote pacifism onto their flags) calling for war against Russia and wanting to supply Ukraine with lots of military material. The world seems to be getting more mad by the decade. I remember how Communist Terrorists were made into 'heroes' or even 'messiah like figures', while ordinary civil servants were made into villain. Then the 9-11 affair, the Iraq war, and more recently the 'refugee crisis' and the 'covid-pandemic'... Shocking how otherwise ordinary people turned into dupes in no time after they hype was only big enough.

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Re: New Denierbud video. "The CIA During World War II"

Postby Hieldner » 3 months 1 week ago (Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:56 pm)

Hitler refers to Bill Donovan personally (“a very inferior character”) in the declaration of war against the US (December 11, 1941):
On 27 March 27 1941 the same president who is supposedly against all aggression announced support for [General Dusan] Simovic and his clique of usurpers [in Yugoslavia], who had come to power in Belgrade after the overthrow of the legal government. Several months earlier, President Roosevelt had sent [OSS chief] Colonel Donovan, a very inferior character, to the Balkans with orders to help organize an uprising against Germany and Italy in Sofia [Bulgaria] and Belgrade. In April he [Roosevelt] promised lend-lease aid to Yugoslavia and Greece. At the end of April he recognized Yugoslav and Greek emigrants as governments in exile. And once again, in violation of international law, he froze Yugoslav and Greek assets.
To provide soap for Germany … [Prof. Spanner] used, in the mode of the Shakespearean witches, racially and ethnically diverse corpses in his experiments … This defies the popular perception that the soap was made of “pure Jewish fat.” … We may consider this misperception a curious symptom of a purist and essentialist reading, or, at least, note that the tension between essentialism and utilitarianism reaches its peak in this misreading.

– Bożena Shallcross

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Re: New Denierbud video. "The CIA During World War II"

Postby hermod » 3 months 1 week ago (Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:19 pm)

Hektor wrote:@Hermod

"Secret Records reveal six million Jews slaughtered".
Yeah right, but one can not even show those 'records' let alone demonstrate that there is empirical merits to them. It's the usual shell game playing hide and seek with the evidence.
You know who also does act like this? Fraudsters. That's why one should immediately cut all ties with that kind of actors. But instead they seem to get into all positions of prominence: Academia, Journalism, government officials, church. Now a society political structure can handle a few of those. It should be manageable, but when it goes over a approximate level and especially when they gain dominance and the behavior become more normative, it gets dangerous for those organizations and all people they do have some power or influence overt. This is how I imagine ancient civilizations did collapsed. The dupes, fraudsters and functionally insane taking over the show there. Not immediately of course, but slowly, but certainly, because the previous core group submitted to dictates of 'tolerance' and 'compassion' with those that 'are different'.


Those secret Nazi records on the alleged slaughter of 6,000,000 Jews were Hoettl's grotesque affidavit and nothing else !! :shock:

Image


"[Austen Chamberlain] has done western civilization a great service by refuting at least one of the slanders against the Germans
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed.
"

Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925

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Re: New Denierbud video. "The CIA During World War II"

Postby Hektor » 3 months 1 week ago (Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:01 am)

hermod wrote:
Hektor wrote:@Hermod

[b]"Secret Records reveal six million Jews slaughtered".
Yeah right, but one can not even show thos....with those that 'are different'.


Those secret Nazi records on the alleged slaughter of 6,000,000 Jews were Hoettl's grotesque affidavit and nothing else !! :shock:

Image





Thought so. If there were indeed records - which should be if the narrative was true - We would never hear the end of it.

There still would be all the technical questions the Holocaustians can or not don't want answer.

I actually contacted Arolsen once about the dead people in concentration camps. They were aware that the death books add up to something between 200.000 to 300.000 dead. "But it was of course more. Only the registered were entered there'. Well, but if the unregistered were actually moved elsewhere e.g to the East into Russia like Dr Buehler said in Nuremberg, what then?

Arolsen apparently sits with the records of 20.000.000 or more people. But I never read that they could actually bring up evidence that would support the gassing narrative.

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Re: New Denierbud video. "The CIA During World War II"

Postby hermod » 3 months 1 week ago (Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:42 am)

Hektor wrote:Thought so. If there were indeed records - which should be if the narrative was true - We would never hear the end of it.

There still would be all the technical questions the Holocaustians can or not don't want answer.

I actually contacted Arolsen once about the dead people in concentration camps. They were aware that the death books add up to something between 200.000 to 300.000 dead. "But it was of course more. Only the registered were entered there'. Well, but if the unregistered were actually moved elsewhere e.g to the East into Russia like Dr Buehler said in Nuremberg, what then?

Arolsen apparently sits with the records of 20.000.000 or more people. But I never read that they could actually bring up evidence that would support the gassing narrative.


A few years ago, a spokeswoman for the Bad Arolsen archives even stated that the Nazi meticulous record-keeping had stopped as soon as Jews and others entered a gas chamber and that not a single homicidal gassing had been recorded on paper by the Nazis. :bom: :cheers:
"[Austen Chamberlain] has done western civilization a great service by refuting at least one of the slanders against the Germans
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed.
"

Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925

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Re: New Denierbud video. "The CIA During World War II"

Postby Hektor » 3 months 4 days ago (Mon Mar 06, 2023 2:39 am)

hermod wrote:
Hektor wrote:Thought so. If there were indeed records - which should be if the narrative was true - We would never hear the end of it.

There still would be all the technical questions the Holocaustians can or not don't want answer.

I actually contacted Arolsen once about the dead people in concentration camps. They were aware that the death books add up to something between 200.000 to 300.000 dead. "But it was of course more. Only the registered were entered there'. Well, but if the unregistered were actually moved elsewhere e.g to the East into Russia like Dr Buehler said in Nuremberg, what then?

Arolsen apparently sits with the records of 20.000.000 or more people. But I never read that they could actually bring up evidence that would support the gassing narrative.


A few years ago, a spokeswoman for the Bad Arolsen archives even stated that the Nazi meticulous record-keeping had stopped as soon as Jews and others entered a gas chamber and that not a single homicidal gassing had been recorded on paper by the Nazis. :bom: :cheers:


Let me get that straight. They say them Nazis kept records on virtually everything, but the most relevant records on how many Jews they killed with their main instrument of choice (homicidal gas chambers), they did not keep records on?


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