Nazi's testimony / Oskar Groening

[Haldan]

On a side note, has his "article" ever been reproduced from that "neo-Nazi magazine"? What exactly did it contain?

-haldan

[Radar]

for he was posted to Auschwitz in September 1942, as a 22-year-old member of the SS. Almost immediately he witnessed the arrival of Jews at the camp. ------ Gröning estimates that 80-90% of those on the first transport he witnessed were selected to be murdered at once.

If I'm not mistaken September 1942 was still within the lifespan of the Auschwitz I gas chamber. But let's preface that: As Hannover cited, this article is written in the context of "holocaust denial". So it isn't difficult to produce facts from Auschwitz that would appear to refute this.

First off, the claim that 80-90% of arrivals on the first train were selected as unfit and sent right to the gas chamber doesn't sound right. For 90% to be unfit we would have to believe that most of the people on that train were old, young, feeble, or sick. Think for a second, if you took an average sample of deported persons would 80-90% be unfit? There is the possibility that this train was loaded with mostly unfit to begin with, but that would be speculation. This high selection rate draws doubt alone. Also, this selection rate conforms to the impossible numbers claimed at Auschwitz. Is it more than coincidence that this guilty-minded confessor just happens to tell a story that matches the holocaust claim?

This confession sounds pretty damning for revisionism. However, if you check holocaust history many persons have made similar confessions and been proven wrong before. What I'd like to see is Mr Groening cross-examined at one of the Irving Trials. I'd like to see Mr Groening go to Auschwitz and point out the facilities he is claiming and their function and then have a competent revisionist examine the claim. We need to know things like exactly how many persons were gassed from that train and in what building? When was the following train processed and how many etc.

Another questionable thing is how did Groening escape the witch hunt for Auschwitz SS officers? If holocaust history holds true he should have been accused of being a mass murderer by now and the German government should have been throwing him as a sacrifice.

Witnessing cremations of camp victims is not something revisionists deny. Perhaps the description of how the bodies spasmed is an attempt to draw attention away from the fact that no one denies people were cremated. This might satisfy those looking to refute "holocaust denial" but it means nothing to technical revisionism.

[kk]

A helping hand from Portugal through D. Irvings's site:

What Gröning actually said

I HAVE just read the article "The fight against Holocaust denial" by Raffi Berg, quoted by your site from BBC News. In that article, we read the following:

"The fear that deniers could gain the upper hand led an SS camp guard, Oskar Gröning, to break a lifetime of silence earlier this year in a BBC documentary, Auschwitz: The Nazis and the Final Solution. 'I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria. I saw the open fires. I was on the ramp when the selections [for the gas chambers] took place,' said Mr Gröning, now in his 80s. 'I would like you to believe these atrocities happened -- because I was there.' "

Mr. Berg's quote is intriguing. I happen to have not only watched, but also tape-recorded, the BBC documentary he mentions, when it was broadcast last March 8 [2005] on the Portuguese channel RTP-2, in its original English version subtitled in Portuguese, and I was struck by the contradiction between the subtitles and the actual words one can hear in the film.

They differ in one important detail from what one can distincly hear, both in the German words spoken by Gröning and their superposed English translation.

The Portuguese subtitles, like Mr. Berg's quote, follow what I gather to be the BBC-distributed text that one can find here (Gröning speaking): http://www.pbs.org/auschwitz/about/transcripts_6.html

"I see it as my task, now at my age, to face up to these things that I experienced and to oppose the Holocaust deniers who claim that Auschwitz never happened. And that's why I am here today. Because I want to tell those deniers: I have seen the gas chambers, I have seen the crematoria, I have seen the burning pits - and I want you to believe me that these atrocities happened. I was there."

Now here are the actual words one gets in the English superposed commentary, which is a faithful translation of the German words one is also able to hear beneath the English:

"I see it as my task, now at my age, to face up to these things that I experienced and to oppose the Holocaust deniers who claim that Auschwitz never happened. And that's why I am here today. Because I want to tell those deniers: I have seen the crematoria, I have seen the burning pits - and I want you to believe me that these atrocities happened. I was there."

Spot the difference.

Tough luck. Back to Höss's "confessions" (never mind Richard Baer or Arthur Liebehenschel) and, of course, the Germans that also confessed to have seen the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth: Hans Stark (10 years for gassing Jews, under juvenile law due to his age, in the Frankfurt 1963-65 "Auschwitz Trial") and Pery Broad (5 years, same trial)...

A. S. Marques
Lisbon, Portugal

[Hannover]

Ah yes, he never says 'gas chambers'. Once more the lying nature of those who produce 'holocau$t' material is on display. Mr. Marques, a frequent participant in the former CODOH BBS, nails them again.

As for Mr. Groening, Revisionists have never said 'Auschwitz didn't happen', we say what is alleged there is absurd and is scientifically impossible, there is no evidence to sustain it. Yes, we know typhus victims were cremated, and yes, we know the crematoriums broke down and occasional open air cremations were necessary due to the size of the epidemics.

Nice post, kk.

- Hannover

[Radar]

Should be a correction in the Guardian any day now.

[Johng]

hannover you said
As for Mr. Groening, Revisionists have never said 'Auschwitz didn't happen', we say what is alleged there is absurd and is scientifically impossible, there is no evidence to sustain it. Yes, we know typhus victims were cremated, and yes, we know the crematoriums broke down and occasional open air cremations were necessary due to the size of the epidemics.

What is your evidence of the 'size of the typhus epidemic'. and I believe that in the past you have denied the possibility of open air burnings!!!

[Hannover]

Please, no lies. I never said I "denied the possibility of open air burnings".

- Hannover

[Hannover]

Does Johng deny that there were large typhus epidemics at Auschwitz/Birkenau?

- Hannover

[Radar]

Why did BBC insert "gas chambers" into Groening's comments when he didn't actually say it?

Maybe it's because he should have said it but didn't. After all, everybody knows there were gas chambers.

[legis548]

"Former Auschwitz guard, 92, deemed fit to stand trial for mass murder as he admits 'I hear the cries of the dead in my dreams and every waking moment'"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... oment.html

'It was completely understood by all that the majority were going straight to the gas chamber, although some believed they were only going to be showered before going to work. Many Jews knew they were going to die.'

All his stories didn't save him from facing the trial in the end.

[Kingfisher]

"Former Auschwitz guard, 92, deemed fit to stand trial for mass murder as he admits 'I hear the cries of the dead in my dreams and every waking moment'"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... oment.html

'It was completely understood by all that the majority were going straight to the gas chamber, although some believed they were only going to be showered before going to work. Many Jews knew they were going to die.'

All his stories didn't save him from facing the trial in the end.

Ironically, on the same page a link to "The orphans of Agent Orange: Fifty years on, children suffer from the horrific effects of America’s use of chemical weapons during the Vietnam War". No trials there though.