Is it possible that some concentration camp prisoners genuinely believed that they were in death camps?

[Johndoe]

I sometimes get frustrated with some of the blatant lies of some so called holocaust survivors, but maybe they were fed propaganda even while they were at the camp. I always wonder did some of them for example genuinely believe that what is most likely a morgue was a gas chamber at aushwitz.

[borjastick]

Given that many claim they were greeted off the train at Auschwitz with the sight of chimneys and the smell of burning flesh from the cremations, and they claim they were told they would be joining those going up in smoke, then yes it is possible. But one would then have to ask why they said all this after the war when patently they survived and realised there were no gas chambers.

[Hannover]

Given that the method of alleged "extermination", gas chambers, were scientifically impossible, and the fact that large numbers were transported OUT of "death camps", any such beliefs are necessarily lies.
But do note that so called "survivors", who themselves profit mightily, are encouraged to lie by a greedy, unethical system, aka: "The Holocaust Industry".
It's a shame, however, that these "survivors" do not have the integrity to be truthful.
Follow the money.

For a thorough demolition of the alleged Auschwitz gas chambers & alleged Auschwitz homicidal gassing process see analysis at: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11143&p=83723&hilit=model+asmarques#p83723

- Hannover

[DissentingOpinions]

Given that the method of alleged "extermination", gas chambers, were scientifically impossible, and the fact that large numbers were transported OUT of "death camps", any such beliefs are necessarily lies.
But do note that so called "survivors", who themselves profit mightily, are encouraged to lie by a greedy, unethical system, aka: "The Holocaust Industry".
It's a shame, however, that these "survivors" do not have the integrity to be truthful.
Follow the money.

For a thorough demolition of the alleged Auschwitz gas chambers & alleged Auschwitz homicidal gassing process see analysis at: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11143&p=83723&hilit=model+asmarques#p83723

- Hannover

Yeah but the death camp survivors who wound up in other camps were on-record as being in the death camps & were therefore sent to the Eastern Territories, which even though we know actually happened, we have no records for. Furthermore, we know that in June, 1943 ; Himmler had the Ostland ghettos closed, so most of the people who were transited there had vanished by that point. If though most of the evidence points to the death camps not being death camps, it means nothing if even the revisionists can't track their travels beyond the furthest point east, especially if it wasn't possible for them to head for the US at that time & they couldn't safely cross over to the Soviet Union.

[Hannover]

Yeah but the death camp survivors who wound up in other camps were on-record as being in the death camps & were therefore sent to the Eastern Territories, which even though we know actually happened, we have no records for. Furthermore, we know that in June, 1943 ; Himmler had the Ostland ghettos closed, so most of the people who were transited there had vanished by that point. If though most of the evidence points to the death camps not being death camps, it means nothing if even the revisionists can't track their travels beyond the furthest point east, especially if it wasn't possible for them to head for the US at that time & they couldn't safely cross over to the Soviet Union.

You are basically asking the illogical question of 'Where did they go?' which has been handled repeatedly.

Nonetheless, among the many facts that refute the narrative which claims Jews were transited to the east to be killed we have the fact that the outbound records are curiously "missing" while the inbound records are plentiful.

So we can easily determine that they were not killed since The Industry would not go to such lengths of destroying or hiding the outbound records if those involved were truly murdered.

And of course there's also the lack of human remains even though such remains are said to be in specific, known locations, but do not exist.

You also have missed the fact there are quite a bit of other facts & records which demolish the false claims.
see:
Simple question: What happened to the people who were sent to the camps? / 'Where did they go?'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13204

Inbound train records, but no outbound records. Why?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2355

Concentration Camp Vital Statistics:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7581

Regards, Hannover

[zapper]

Nonetheless, among the many facts that refute the narrative which claims Jews were transited to the east to be killed we have the fact that the outbound records are curiously "missing" while the inbound records are plentiful.

So we can easily determine that they were not killed since The Industry would not go to such lengths of destroying or hiding the outbound records if those involved were truly murdered.

And of course there's also the lack of human remains even though such remains are said to be in specific, known locations, but do not exist.

Well I think the propagandists' claim is that there was no outbound records to destroy because the Jews never left those camps. They were murdered there. However these claims are easily refuted by the fact that not more than a dozen or so bodies have been found at these camps, and that descriptions of the killing methods make not an iota of sense.

This also goes for the supposed Einsatzgruppen killings. Not a single mass grave (linked to NS Germany that is) has ever been unearthed. This is therefore proof that not only did they destroy the outbound train records, but they destroyed most records of actual resettlement. The large number of Jews (likely between 2-3 million, I am still researching this) who survived and were "liberated" by the Red Army could likewise not reveal the details of their captivity, otherwise miss out on "holocaust" reparations. Furthermore many Jews, despite being treated rather excellently, may have believed the virulent propaganda, and converted out of fear of the Soviet Administration (which had by this time wised up considerably to the machinations of the Hebraic kind), so also could not reveal what had *really* happened to them without exposing their true race.

[DissentingOpinions]

Yeah but the death camp survivors who wound up in other camps were on-record as being in the death camps & were therefore sent to the Eastern Territories, which even though we know actually happened, we have no records for. Furthermore, we know that in June, 1943 ; Himmler had the Ostland ghettos closed, so most of the people who were transited there had vanished by that point. If though most of the evidence points to the death camps not being death camps, it means nothing if even the revisionists can't track their travels beyond the furthest point east, especially if it wasn't possible for them to head for the US at that time & they couldn't safely cross over to the Soviet Union.

You are basically asking the illogical question of 'Where did they go?' which has been handled repeatedly.

Nonetheless, among the many facts that refute the narrative which claims Jews were transited to the east to be killed we have the fact that the outbound records are curiously "missing" while the inbound records are plentiful.

So we can easily determine that they were not killed since The Industry would not go to such lengths of destroying or hiding the outbound records if those involved were truly murdered.

And of course there's also the lack of human remains even though such remains are said to be in specific, known locations, but do not exist.

You also have missed the fact there are quite a bit of other facts & records which demolish the false claims.
see:
Simple question: What happened to the people who were sent to the camps? / 'Where did they go?'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13204

Inbound train records, but no outbound records. Why?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2355

Concentration Camp Vital Statistics:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7581

Regards, Hannover

Hannover, I hold the same position as most other revisionists, that the missing 5.1 million Jews were sent to the Eastern Territories, because that's where the chain of circumstantial evidence points them as having wound up at. Mattogno & Graf's research indicates they were sent to the Ostland, where the ghettos were closed following an official order from Himmler in June of 1943 & those inside were sent further east. Further east was the Eastern Front - the military occupation of the German side. There is no evidence that hundreds of thousands of Jews were moved there, or that they crossed over to Soviet territory. Defaulting to "the gas chambers weren't real" is an obvious dodge here - that's not what I'm getting at.

[Hannover]

Hannover, I hold the same position as most other revisionists, that the missing 5.1 million Jews were sent to the Eastern Territories, because that's where the chain of circumstantial evidence points them as having wound up at. Mattogno & Graf's research indicates they were sent to the Ostland, where the ghettos were closed following an official order from Himmler in June of 1943 & those inside were sent further east. Further east was the Eastern Front - the military occupation of the German side. There is no evidence that hundreds of thousands of Jews were moved there, or that they crossed over to Soviet territory. Defaulting to "the gas chambers weren't real" is an obvious dodge here - that's not what I'm getting at.

Please clarify, what did I supposedly "dodge"?

Thanks, Hannover

[DissentingOpinions]

My original point was that simply proving the death camp claims are impossible, doesn't answer where those Jews eventually wound up in the end. In other words: Where was further east for these millions of people if the ghettos in the Ostland & Ukraine closed after June of 1943? Your response was to default to the alleged gas chambers being impossible & the lack of remains/cremains, which I wasn't disputing.

[Hannover]

My original point was that simply proving the death camp claims are impossible, doesn't answer where those Jews eventually wound up in the end. In other words: Where was further east for these millions of people if the ghettos in the Ostland & Ukraine closed after June of 1943? Your response was to default to the alleged gas chambers being impossible & the lack of remains/cremains, which I wasn't disputing.

Not correct.
I posted much more than "defaulting to the alleged gas chambers being impossible & the lack of remains/cremains".

Here you go, again:

You are basically asking the illogical question of 'Where did they go?' which has been handled repeatedly.

Nonetheless, among the many facts that refute the narrative which claims Jews were transited to the east to be killed we have the fact that the outbound records are curiously "missing" while the inbound records are plentiful.

So we can easily determine that they were not killed since The Industry would not go to such lengths of destroying or hiding the outbound records if those involved were truly murdered.

And of course there's also the lack of human remains even though such remains are said to be in specific, known locations, but do not exist.

You also have missed the fact there are quite a bit of other facts & records which demolish the false claims.
see:
Simple question: What happened to the people who were sent to the camps? / 'Where did they go?'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13204

Inbound train records, but no outbound records. Why?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2355

Concentration Camp Vital Statistics:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7581

Regards, Hannover

Cheers.

[Hektor]

My original point was that simply proving the death camp claims are impossible, doesn't answer where those Jews eventually wound up in the end. In other words: Where was further east for these millions of people if the ghettos in the Ostland & Ukraine closed after June of 1943? Your response was to default to the alleged gas chambers being impossible & the lack of remains/cremains, which I wasn't disputing.

You assume that 5.1 Jews were missing. What lets you arrive at that figure?
The whole "where did they go"-argument is an exercise in question begging. That's a logical fallacy, especially, when you try to prove something specific with this.

This is a very common logical fallacy (as you can see, with the present "COVID"/"settled science" debate). And one that is specifically difficult to root out. People don't get that you can't simply assume something and then point to an (alleged) consequence. Assumptions are not facts and they don't become facts, just because you point to an alleged cause or effect.

While exact data on whereabouts (of Jews) would be interesting, we don't have that data about millions of other neither. Does that now mean that they died or even were gassed? I don't think so.


Concerning beliefs of concentration camp inmates, some may indeed have been persuaded that there were "homicidal gassings". Rumours were going around and there several features that insinuated that. People that died. Talk about showers and gas chambers (for delousing). And a boring atmosphere that stories were posing some stimulation. All conducive for rumours and the believe therein.

[Waldgänger]

With regards to "where did they go, if not further east?", indeed as Hektor said, it is question-begging. This number of people never went anywhere because they never existed. Soviets made up numbers of deaths they thought had occurred as they liberated places like Majdanek. Death Numbers proposed by both orthodox exterminationists and revisionists often miss the fact that these are based off initial Soviet propaganda, made up without any reference to census material or head counts. For example, they estimated 2 million died at Majdanek -- the official number today is 79,000 at most. So, where did these 1,921,000 people go? Nowhere. They never existed in the first place.

With regards to the topic of this thread: I believe many of them thought they were in death camps, yes. As we can hear and see in interviews with war-survivors, rumours circulated very freely among people. Also it may have benefited camp guards for inmates to believe scary stories. "If you don't work hard - poof, up in smoke". It's psychological abuse, but not necessarily systematic genocide. Also, many of these people saw their grandmother or whoever taken away and never come back. Likely, these people died of typhoid or many other possible things, but the war-survivors put rumour & experience together, then the trials after the War made it conclusive: "grandma must've been gassed". Never mind that all the supposed eyewitnesses of the gassing process contradict what is now the "official science" of the process. Rumour and garbled memory are powerful.

[Lamprecht]

did some of them for example genuinely believe that what is most likely a morgue was a gas chamber at aushwitz.

Sure, why not? Lies are created for various reasons, rumors spread, mistakes are made, and some people are simply insane and hallucinate entire events. For every prisoner who actually believes that he saw a homicidal gassing, you can find an individual that truly "remembers" being abducted by extraterrestrials, or saw bigfoot or whatever.

Relevant thread:

Does the strong Jew tendency towards mental illness assist in their 'holocaust' fantasies?
viewtopic.php?t=12239

[Lamprecht]

doesn't answer where those Jews eventually wound up in the end.

Who exactly claimed to have millions of complete travel itineraries from such a chaotic period in European history? I can post a list of passengers from an airline many years ago, but I can't tell you where each of them went after the plane landed.

In other words: Where was further east for these millions of people if the ghettos in the Ostland & Ukraine closed after June of 1943?

Looking at a map directly, everything to the right of this region would be classified as 'further east'.

Your response was to default to the alleged gas chambers being impossible & the lack of remains/cremains, which I wasn't disputing.

The only people I am aware of that claim to know precisely where all of these Jews went is those that claim the existence of enormous pits full of human remains in supposedly known locations at so-called "extermination camps." How could anyone claim to know exactly where millions of people went at a specific date long in the past without documentation, which can easily be faked or destroyed? When the war was finished, there were millions of refugees.

People can travel around, change their names, hide or change their religion, etc. In contrast, mass graves full of millions of pounds of human remains cannot simply disappear by being covered with a layer of dirt.

[Lamprecht]

If though most of the evidence points to the death camps not being death camps, it means nothing if even the revisionists can't track their travels beyond the furthest point east, especially if it wasn't possible for them to head for the US at that time & they couldn't safely cross over to the Soviet Union.

It means nothing? Please explain why. The allegation is that millions of Jews were buried in enormous pits, in some cases after being burnt in giant outdoor pyres. If these enormous pits do not exist today then, necessarily, they either (a) disappeared or (b) never existed in the first place.

Since option "a" defies the laws of nature we must accept option "b." It may be interesting to some people to see a complete travel itinerary for millions of people during WWII, but it is not necessary to reject the exterminationist conspiracy theory.

Imagine being charged with murder in a court of law, and you were told not only that your alleged victims were buried in an exactly known location (which you are prevented from examining) but you will be found guilty unless you say exactly where the alleged victims went. It makes no sense. If they didn't end up in huge mass graves they must have gone somewhere else.

What truly means nothing is:
"...safely cross over to the Soviet Union"

Safely? What does one person's opinion on what is 'safe' have to do with anything here? And what exactly qualifies as "the Soviet Union" at each point in time? Ownership of territory was in dispute and/or occupied before, during, and after WWII.

Sorry bud, but you're not going to get an answer for "Where exactly was [person] at [date and time]?" over 7 decades later if there was no documentation made at the time or, if it was, the documentation was not preserved.