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Archie wrote:Furthermore, notice that it says "toxic gas in the train in which they are locked." But since when has the story been that Jews were gassed in trains???
Archie wrote:Where are you getting May 10, 1942? The date given in your link is November.
fireofice wrote:Archie wrote:Furthermore, notice that it says "toxic gas in the train in which they are locked." But since when has the story been that Jews were gassed in trains???
Ironically, it would have been a lot more believable if that was the story the propagandists used, as Fredrich Berg pointed out:
https://codoh.com/library/document/zykl ... ambers/en/
Too bad for them, they didn't!
HistorySpeaks wrote:I just google translated the PHDN documents I linked to, because I don't know French or Italian.
These documents are numerous and damning. For example, there was an intelligence report provided by the Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs on 10 May 1942 (notated as seen by Mussolini in Ciano), that literally saysregarding the Jews sent to the East from the German-occupied zone of France, ""they are eliminated by means of toxic gases."
Le Général Giuseppe Pieche représentait les carabiniers italiens en Croatie du Nord et en Slovénie. Une note du ministère des affaires étrangères italien daté du 4 novembre 1942 rapporte le contenu d’un télégramme envoyé le jour même par le Général Pieche. Celui-ci précise à propos des Juifs déportés vers l’Est depuis la zone d’occupation allemande:
« Ils sont éliminés au moyen de gaz toxiques »170.
170. Cité par Walter Laqueur, op. cit., p. 47. Original italien: « stati eliminati mediante l’impiego di gas tossico » (Giuseppe Mayda, Ebrei sotto Salo. La persecuzione antisemita 1943-1945, Milan: Feltrinelli Editore, 1978, p. 23).
HistorySpeaks wrote:Archie wrote:Where are you getting May 10, 1942? The date given in your link is November.
You're correct; the document was from 4 November 1942, and I mistyped the date.
Obviously I reject your claim that the change in dates matters; what reason do you have to believe the Italian Foreign Ministry was 'merely reporting rumors,' rather than reporting facts?
Archie wrote:HistorySpeaks wrote:Archie wrote:Where are you getting May 10, 1942? The date given in your link is November.
You're correct; the document was from 4 November 1942, and I mistyped the date.
Obviously I reject your claim that the change in dates matters; what reason do you have to believe the Italian Foreign Ministry was 'merely reporting rumors,' rather than reporting facts?
Reporting fact? I do not understand. Are you saying the train gassing is factual?
Also, might I point out that we haven't even seen this document yet. We have one partial sentence quoted by Laqueur. Maybe you should read the whole document in context before proclaiming it to be proof of something. Especially since we already know that Laqueur grossly misrepresented the Himmler-Mussolini meeting.
curioussoul wrote:This is laughable, even coming from Matt. These details are from the "Wetzler/Vrba Report" - two Jewish ex-prisoners - and is therefore nothing but hearsay and propaganda. Their "report", by the way, was used as a blueprint for many of the atrocity stories about Auschwitz later on after the war, and inspired a whole host of eyewitness testimonies, as Mattogno among others have proven. The Hungarian Jews were not gassed and the entire leadup to their deportation is well documented.
HistorySpeaks wrote:I just google translated the PHDN documents I linked to, because I don't know French or Italian.
These documents are numerous and damning. For example, there was an intelligence report provided by the Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs on 10 May 1942 (notated as seen by Mussolini in Ciano), that literally saysregarding the Jews sent to the East from the German-occupied zone of France, ""they are eliminated by means of toxic gases."
Whodunnit? wrote:HistorySpeaks wrote:I just google translated the PHDN documents I linked to, because I don't know French or Italian.
These documents are numerous and damning. For example, there was an intelligence report provided by the Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs on 10 May 1942 (notated as seen by Mussolini in Ciano), that literally saysregarding the Jews sent to the East from the German-occupied zone of France, ""they are eliminated by means of toxic gases."
@History Speaks
You do realize that between 1943 and 1944 all of "Hitler's allies" had coups or switched sides?
Italy deposed Mussolini in July 1943. Coups don't happen spontaneously, they require a network of conspirators and months to years of preparation. So now you cite a document from november 1942. Let's do some quick research on the names mentioned here:
General Guiseppe Pieche, who represented the Italian carabinieri in northern Croatia and Slovenia, wrote in a note to his government that the Jews from the German zone of occupation were deported to the eastern territories and 'sono stati eliminati mediate l'impiego di gas tossico nel treno in cui erano rinchiusi'.*
First of all, "gas trains" are something new for me. Incredible, how the Germans engineered these weird extermination machines, instead of just shooting them. I guess they needed something for their factory workers to do....
Whodunnit? wrote:Even in Germany did you have a very active resistance movement, even though - with a few ineffective exceptions like Stauffenberg and the White Rose - they never get mentioned for whatever reason. Like Admiral Canaris, the chief of the German intelligence agency, and his entire staff. This is not a "revisionist theory", this was confirmed at Nuremberg. Treason is probably the main reason for why the "axis" lost the war. I say this because I am currently researching this topic.
What were the motives of the traitors? Well, maybe they felt morally obligated because of all the "atrocities", like the white rose. Stirring such sentiments up would be a great strategic tool, which for example was one of the goals of Senfton Delmer and his black propaganda-radio channel Gustav Siegfried Eins. Maybe they just didn't like the Nazis, like Ernst Jünger, who was anti-democratic and militaristic, but also an anglophile and elitist who simply considered the Nazis too vulgar. Or they just wanted to benefit from a defeat and get into positions of power.
....
Whodunnit? wrote:In July 1943, Ciano was among the members of the Grand Council of Fascism that forced Mussolini's ousting and subsequent arrest. Ciano proceeded to flee to Germany but was arrested and handed over to Mussolini's new regime based in Salò, the Italian Social Republic. Under German pressure, Mussolini ordered Ciano's death, and in January 1944 he was executed by firing squad.
There you go.
Further evidence of my participation in a conspiracy to prepare aggressive war was provided by the diary of the
former Italian Foreign Minister, Count Ciano; it was listed as document PS 2989.
Repeated applications by my counsel at Nuremberg did not lead to the discovery of the original of this diary. I know for certain that there are at least two diaries by Ciano, one of which I saw the Führer with as early as 1943. That diary certainly did not contain an entry according to which I was supposed to have told Ciano in Berchtesgaden on 12th August, 1939: ‘We want war.’ On the other hand, that diary attributed to me most derogatory remarks about Japan. At that time an investigation for treason against Mussolini was already proceeding, and Ciano used his diary to blackmail others. He sent a message to the Führer stating that a copy of the diary was in the custody of his friend, the Spanish Ambassador in Rome, and would be published if anything happened to him.
One of Ciano’s diaries is certainly a forgery. It was not possible to find out from which manuscript the photocopies were taken which were submitted in Nuremberg. It is not even certain whether the book from which the photo-copies were taken was in fact written by Count Ciano, since only the accuracy of the translation, not the genuineness of the diary, was vouched for. If the photo-copies really reproduced Ciano’s notes they would show that he did not keep a continuous diary, but that he made entries at a later date, in other words, he himself was partially guilty of forgery. For instance, entries dated 3rd and 4th December, 1941, refer to events of 8th December, 1941, and so on. At Nuremberg this diary was to prove that I intended and desired to start the war against Poland.
Presumably the whole diary was re-written several times by Count Ciano in order to create a cast-iron ‘peace alibi’ for himself and to bring out as a contrast my own and the Fuhrer’s ‘lust for war’. These passages were not, of course, contained in the first version, because he was then anxious to secure his position, which was threatened as a result of the politically obscure part he had played for years. Without a doubt Ciano maintained permanent contact with the enemy.
Ciano was not only jealous and vain, but also deceitful and unreliable. He did not set great store by truthfulness, which made personal and official intercourse with him difficult. The manner in which he betrayed Mussolini, his own father-in-law, in the Fascist Council in July, 1943, clearly showed his reprehensible character. The Duce told me later that no one had ever told him so many lies as Ciano—and this for years—and he was probably also to blame for the corruption and consequent splitting of the Fascist Party.
In the version of the so-called ‘diary’ that was accepted as evidence at Nuremberg the record of our conference in Berchtesgaden on 12th and 13th August, 1939, is certainly completely wrong. After the conflict which arose from the so-called ‘Danzig customs officers’ dispute’, the Führer had instructed me to warn Ciano that the Polish situation was serious. I was to tell the Italian Foreign Minister that the Führer would not tolerate Polish provocations much longer and that Poland would at last have to make her position clear.
On that 12th August, 1939, there was already a possibility that we would arrive at a settlement with Russia. Having Italy, herself strong because Mussolini was at the helm, as her staunch ally, Japan as her friend, and a settlement with Russia, Germany had created conditions which made it by no means fanciful to imagine that Poland would after all sit down at a table and agree to a negotiated solution. Now it was decisive that Britain should recognize the Fuhrer’s resolve to establish clearly defined relations between himself and Poland.
The well-known indiscretions of Italian court and Government circles made it imperative for us that Count Ciano should be convinced of the Fuhrer’s resolve and should report this to Mussolini. Any impression that the Fuhrer was undecided over the Polish question would immediately have been reported via Rome to London, and thence to Warsaw, and this would have made any diplomatic solution impossible from the outset. This was the reason for the very precise instruction to me not to allow any doubt to arise in Ciano’s mind concerning Hitler’s resolve. But I never said to Ciano: ‘We want war.’ It is significant that these words only appear in the introduction to the version of Ciano’s diary which was used as evidence at Nuremberg. There can thus be no doubt that they were interpolated later, perhaps not even by Ciano himself.
I still remember clearly what I really said to Count Ciano on that occasion. What I said was that the Fuhrer had had enough of Polish provocations. Poland would have to give a clear answer, and Danzig must return to the Reich. The Fuhrer’s demands were moderate, but the situation was being aggravated by the Poles, who apparently wanted to create an accomplished fact in Danzig. The Fuhrer was therefore resolved to settle the Danzig question one way or the other. My task was to make it clear to Ciano before he saw the Fuhrer that the situation was serious. The Fuhrer himself said what remained to be said. I then asked Ciano on behalf of the Fuhrer not to insist on a communique, adding expressly that I still hoped for a diplomatic settlement precisely because the Fuhrer was so firmly resolved.
Ciano was certainly not delighted with what the Fuhrer told him, but he made no objections, except to point out that Italy was militarily not ready to fight in the event of an armed conflict. I did not like having to ask Ciano for a further proof of Italy’s friendship, for twice before—in connection with Austria and the Sudetenland settlement—Mussolini had stood by us. Now I had to ask Italy to do this a third time.
Ciano alleges that I had a ‘bad conscience’ because I had so often ‘lied’ about German intentions in Poland, and that I was embarrassed because I had to state what ‘action I was now preparing’. I had no bad conscience, for I had never ‘lied’ about Poland. I had always said, and was convinced, that Germany wanted a peaceful settlement with Poland. Moreover, Count Ciano concealed the fact that he was fully aware of the increased tension between Germany and Poland since March, 1939. Nor was it unknown to him that both sides had declared that a fait accompli in Danzig would be regarded as a casus belli.
The Ribbentrop Memoirs, Introduction by Alan Bullock (Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1954), Pp. 188-191
fireofice wrote:Whodunnit? wrote:In July 1943, Ciano was among the members of the Grand Council of Fascism that forced Mussolini's ousting and subsequent arrest. Ciano proceeded to flee to Germany but was arrested and handed over to Mussolini's new regime based in Salò, the Italian Social Republic. Under German pressure, Mussolini ordered Ciano's death, and in January 1944 he was executed by firing squad.
There you go.
Indeed. According to Ribbentrop, Ciano was a deceitful liar and created a forged version of his own diary.
fireofice wrote:Whodunnit? wrote:In July 1943, Ciano was among the members of the Grand Council of Fascism that forced Mussolini's ousting and subsequent arrest. Ciano proceeded to flee to Germany but was arrested and handed over to Mussolini's new regime based in Salò, the Italian Social Republic. Under German pressure, Mussolini ordered Ciano's death, and in January 1944 he was executed by firing squad.
There you go.
Indeed. According to Ribbentrop, Ciano was a deceitful liar and created a forged version of his own diary.Further evidence of my participation in a conspiracy to prepare aggressive war was provided by the diary of the
former Italian Foreign Minister, Count Ciano; it was listed as document PS 2989.
...
Ciano alleges that I had a ‘bad conscience’ because I had so often ‘lied’ about German intentions in Poland, and that I was embarrassed because I had to state what ‘action I was now preparing’. I had no bad conscience, for I had never ‘lied’ about Poland. I had always said, and was convinced, that Germany wanted a peaceful settlement with Poland. Moreover, Count Ciano concealed the fact that he was fully aware of the increased tension between Germany and Poland since March, 1939. Nor was it unknown to him that both sides had declared that a fait accompli in Danzig would be regarded as a casus belli.
The Ribbentrop Memoirs, Introduction by Alan Bullock (Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1954), Pp. 188-191
More info on Ciano's dishonesty here:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14027#p102461
To treat Ciano as an "ally" is absurd.
Hektor wrote:Ciano may have wanted to save his own ass there. Calculating that the odds weren't on the Allied, but not on the Axis side. So rather have 'some change' in Europe, but remain in a position to survive it as healthy and wealthy as possible. Singing to the piper's tune is of course useful in this. No surprise one would get people doing this.
hermod wrote:Hektor wrote:Ciano may have wanted to save his own ass there. Calculating that the odds weren't on the Allied, but not on the Axis side. So rather have 'some change' in Europe, but remain in a position to survive it as healthy and wealthy as possible. Singing to the piper's tune is of course useful in this. No surprise one would get people doing this.
During WWII, Ciano was a friend of the Axis as reliable as Italy had been a belligerent of the Triple Alliance during WWI...
Ciano was dismissed from his post by the new government of Italy put in place after his father-in-law was overthrown. Ciano, Edda and their three children fled to Germany on 28 August 1943 in fear of being arrested by the new Italian government. The Germans turned him over to Mussolini's administration. He was then formally arrested on charges of treason. Under German and Fascist pressure, Mussolini had Ciano imprisoned before he was tried and found guilty.[25] After the Verona trial and sentence, on 11 January 1944, Ciano was executed by a firing squad along with 4 others (Emilio De Bono, Luciano Gottardi, Giovanni Marinelli and Carlo Pareschi) who had voted for Mussolini's ousting. As a further humiliation, the condemned men were tied to chairs and shot in the back, though Ciano managed to twist his chair around at the last minute to face the firing squad before uttering his final words, "Long live Italy!"
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