A fellow revisonists article about cremation

[TheDenier2086]

The crematoria at Auschwitz and Birkenau were all typical cremation ovens.
That is, they were designed to take a body (at maximum shrouded, but NOT in
a coffin) which would be inserted singly onto a kind of grill and then be
cremated by the super-heated air generated elsewhere in the oven. Even
today, cremations are carried out in this manner: the actual fire (from
whatever source) is not supposed to contact the body.

The proposed Topf patent is NOT for a cremation oven, but rather for an
incinerator. That is, you build a fire, let it develop over a period of time
(in this case, two days), and then start throwing material in it -- that is,
right on the fire -- to burn.

But you cannot apply this method to the AB crematoria because the bodies
were not thrown directly on the fire, but were burned by indirect heat, like
all cremation ovens. This simply means that the cremating bodies could not
have contributed fuel (in the form of fat) to the ongoing fire, which would
need tending on its own. And this is where the coke usage comes in.

True, there were probably attempts to put multiple bodies in the muffles.
Perhaps two or three at a time, the dimensions of these particular muffles
would not allow for more. But if it takes X to burn one body, it will take 3
X to burn three, and again, if it takes 30 minutes to reduce a body to the
size of a football, 30 minutes with three bodies will not produce three
football sized remains.

True also, the fat from burning bodies will allow the middle stage of
cremation to proceed more or less on its own. But not at the end. High heat
is required at the beginning of the cremation cycle, to ignite, and at the
end, to reduce the remainder of the body proteins (minus the burnt off fat)
to ash.

Even incinerators are not perfect thermal systems: they continue to require
fuel for burning, and not just the fuel they are burning. The most efficient
incinerators of, say, animal waste, still require external BTU's to keep
going far in excess of 3.5 kg per, say, 70 kg (hypothetical human body), and
incidentally require far more than 15 minutes per 70 kg, in fact, the going
rate for state of the art incinerators is about 40 seconds per kg, IOW, 70 x
40 / 60 = 47 minutes to INCINERATE 70 kg of remains.

CREMATIONS, as opposed to INCINERATIONS, take longer. According to the only
SCIENTIFIC data ever done on this matter, by the British Cremation Society,
it takes 40 minutes to reduce a body to bone, and another 20-30 minutes to
reduce the bone to ash. Furthermore, there is a thermal barrier to these
processes of under 40 minutes that it is not possible to go beneath (too
much heat or too little heat both turn the body to a kind of hard black
tootsie roll substance). Meanwhile, the same study says that after 30
minutes, the body can only be reduced to the size of a football.

Now this is REAL scientific data. It wasn't produced by revisionists or
exterminationists, but rather by people who do cremations for a living. Such
data obviously trumps such things as the 15 minute per body memo (which has
many odd features indicating probable forgery), or the Gusen timesheet,
which, only under a charitable interpretation can support the alleged 27
minute cremation time cited therein.

Unless someone comes up with real SCIENTIFIC data to contradict the British
Cremation Society, the real conclusions are that:

1) Bodies cannot be cremated in 15 minutes or even 30 minutes, but less than
one hour times are conceivable for incomplete multiple cremations,

2) Bodies cannot be CREMATED using 3.5 kg of coke, in fact, they cannot even
be INCINERATED using 3.5 kg of coke, although, in both cremation ovens and
incinerators, combustible material, such as fat, can assist the burning
process.

3) The real rate of burn at the Birkenau crematoria was about 500 a day.

This article which I found is very interesting to say the least. I would like to find this article about cremation.

Again, this is a very well thought out article, and one that I am surprised that no one (that I do not yet) has came across it.
http://www.historykb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/history/7248/Some-Auschwitz-Crematoria-facts

[Hannover]

Timely to be sure. My latest column in Smith's Report features A CODOH Revisionist Forum thread on the bogus 3.5 kg of coke claim. Look for it the next Smith's Report. BTW, Jewish supremacist Roberto Muehlenkamp takes a righteous beating.

Also see the previous SR which also features posts from many of you here at this forum. There will plenty more to come. If you don't already subscribe to Smith's Report, do yourself and Bradley a favor and subscribe. Some cutting edge work there.

We will not be stopped.

- Hannover

[TheDenier2086]

Timely to be sure. My latest column in Smith's Report features A CODOH Revisionist Forum thread on the bogus 3.5 kg of coke claim. Look for it the next Smith's Report. BTW, Jewish supremacist Roberto Muehlenkamp takes a righteous beating.

Also see the previous SR which also features posts from many of you here at this forum. There will plenty more to come. If you don't already subscribe to Smith's Report, do yourself and Bradley a favor and subscribe. Some cutting edge work there.

We will not be stopped.

- Hannover

I shall do just that. The report from the British Cremation Society is one of the heaviest blows that they have suffered yet.

By proving that the times alleged cannot take place, the facts stand that they must reduce their total, and thus take the total down to how many that could be gassed and cremated.

I praise yours and others work for exposing this.

On another note, I would like to ask for your help on a subject, of which I will send you a private message. I am not very experienced in this subject, so that is why I am asking.

[Hannover]

Sure, send me a PM, I'll get to it tomorrow. Nighty night now.

- Hannover

[Toshiro]

You're missing the point! The coke isn't an issue, don't you know the bodies burned on their fat alone!?

[Blogbuster]

Timely to be sure. My latest column in Smith's Report features A CODOH Revisionist Forum thread on the bogus 3.5 kg of coke claim. Look for it the next Smith's Report. BTW, Jewish supremacist Roberto Muehlenkamp takes a righteous beating.

Also see the previous SR which also features posts from many of you here at this forum. There will plenty more to come. If you don't already subscribe to Smith's Report, do yourself and Bradley a favor and subscribe. Some cutting edge work there.

We will not be stopped.

- Hannover

You weren't kidding about Muehlenkamp taking a beating in that one! That guy needs to hone his debating skills before he takes people on in the way he has.

BB

[HaaDeeCee]

From the original post, paragraph #4):

"...True, there were probably attempts to put multiple bodies in the muffles.
Perhaps two or three at a time, the dimensions of these particular muffles
would not allow for more. But if it takes X to burn one body, it will take 3
X to burn three, and again, if it takes 30 minutes to reduce a body to the
size of a football, 30 minutes with three bodies will not produce three
football sized remains..."

With 3 bodies stacked pyramid fashion the cremation time would be quite a bit longer than 3X the time for one body.

This due to the fact the while the mass to be cremated is increased 3X, the surface (heat transfer) area of the stack is NOT increased 3X because the areas of each body in contact with each other must be subtracted from the heat transfer area. This reduction in effective heat transfer surface area slows down the cremation process. Therefore, unless the 3 bodies were spaced far enough apart so as not to impair the access of the hot furnace gasses to each body, the cremation process times are longer for multiple bodies than the simple arithmetic would indicate.

A rough estimate would have it that 3 bodies in a pyramid stack would require 2X the cremation time of one body.

As they say, the devil is in the details.

HdC

[Mkk]

Good article! For more on cremation and Auchwitz cremation in particular, the most in depth study in English is part of Auchwitz: The case for sanity. Sometime soon, a 800 page work will be published.

[TheDenier2086]

Below is some of the debate with one of the guys from youtube, where "deniersareevil" states as follows:

The Topf instructions were written years before capture, and I think the headquarters with the files was in the British zone. As for the torture of the engineers in Soviet prisons, there is no evidence for this. Also, as with the Hoess memoirs, in the interrogation records the engineers CONTRADICT information put out by the Soviets. If they were coerced or staged interrogations, they would just record their acceptance to the Soviet line. Heck deniers even sometimes rely on them!

Regarding the British Cremation Society, their work is obviously applicable to normal civilian use (1 body at a time and complete cremation), and less so to the practices inside the concentration camps. Even so one participant at that 1975 conference (LGA Leonard) said that after a half hour the body would shrink to the size of a football. Once that was so, Topf instructions for their ovens state that more bodies could be added.

Certainly it would take more time to cremate several corpses than just one, but the average for the multiple corpses would be less than the single. In 1911 a Japanese oven brought to Dresden could cremate 5 bodies at once in about 2-2.5 hours. That is MUCH lower than your estimates. You say the Nazis couldnt have done it 30 yrs later?

In 1911 a Japanese oven brought to Dresden could cremate 5 bodies at once

And where is the evidence to support this?

[ClaudiaRothenbach]

"You say the Nazis couldn't have done it 30 yrs later?"

It is quite unimportant what the Nazis could have done.
We have the ovens or blueprints of the ovens and we have jewish and communistic lies.
That's it!

If the National Socialists would have wanted to murder 6 M Jews and
let the dead bodies disappear they would have established a completely different system.
It is absolutely possible to murder 6 M people in 3 years (see Ukraine 1931).
It is also possible to burn the remains.
But not like the Communists and Jews want us to belief.

[Mkk]

Heck deniers even sometimes rely on them!

Yes, because their statements seem to fit into reality.

As for the torture of the engineers in Soviet prisons, there is no evidence for this.

But they WERE under a lot of legal pressure, perhaps under fear of their lives to say the right thing.

Also, as with the Hoess memoirs, in the interrogation records the engineers CONTRADICT information put out by the Soviets

The Soviets weren't looking for precise technical detail, and they needed was some vague descriptions of the gassings, and this could be used as evidence. Also note that all of thye former camps personnel's testimony greatly contradicts eachother, and with the instant gassing executions, basic logic.

Regarding the British Cremation Society, their work is obviously applicable to normal civilian use (1 body at a time and complete cremation), and less so to the practices inside the concentration camps. Even so one participant at that 1975 conference (LGA Leonard) said that after a half hour the body would shrink to the size of a football.

But Mattagno has proven that the documents explicitly state ONE body per muffle per hour, and also somewhere else there was a document that suggested the individual ashes of the corpse were collected- impossible if more than one body was burned at the same time. (These documents in Auchwitz: case for sanity in the cremation section) And yes, the Nazis did need complete cremation to hide their alleged crimes.

You say the Nazis couldnt have done it 30 yrs later?

This poster hasn't proven that the Auschwitz crematoria could achieve this, which aren't powerful as some others. Also, if it took 2.5 hours to cremate 5 corpses instead of 5 hours, that leaves us with about one thousand corpses a day, if we double Mattagno's estimate... Which still isn't enough for the gassing victims plus the typhus etc. victims. And ofcourse this is going on this guy's theory, which isn't substantiated, that mutiple corpses were cremated.

In 1911 a Japanese oven brought to Dresden could cremate 5 bodies at once

Does anyone know where this poster got this from? If we knew about the power of the crematoria, we could make a better judgement.

Ofcourse, none of this answers the other two crematoria problems for extermanists: The coke use, which seems to be the same regardless of how many bodies are cremated at once, and also the fact that the muffles, which could according to one document could cremate at best 3000 corpses, were never replaced!

[TheDenier2086]

Very interesting posts guys. Another thing is that me an Hannover had a little private chat, and he suggested that I ask one of the believers for the original document of a report about treblinka, and is as follows:

It can be found in War Diary of the Oberquartiermeister , Mbfh Polen. The original text reads:

"OK Ostrow meldet, dass die Juden in Treblinka nicht ausreichend beerdigt seien und infolgedessen ein unerträglicher Kadavergeruch die Luft verpestet."

OK Ostrow=local commandant at Ostrow

And prior he wrote:

Nazi army 24.10.1942 document says "Jews in Treblinka are not adequately buried and that, as a result, an unbearable body stench befouls the air

Edit: I realized that this was accidentally posted here, when I meant to post it in the topic of the debate that I had with the guy on youtube.

[Mkk]

Very interesting posts guys. Another thing is that me an Hannover had a little private chat, and he suggested that I ask one of the believers for the original document of a report about treblinka, and is as follows:

It can be found in War Diary of the Oberquartiermeister , Mbfh Polen. The original text reads:

"OK Ostrow meldet, dass die Juden in Treblinka nicht ausreichend beerdigt seien und infolgedessen ein unerträglicher Kadavergeruch die Luft verpestet."

OK Ostrow=local commandant at Ostrow

And prior he wrote:

Nazi army 24.10.1942 document says "Jews in Treblinka are not adequately buried and that, as a result, an unbearable body stench befouls the air

Edit: I realized that this was accidentally posted here, when I meant to post it in the topic of the debate that I had with the guy on youtube.

I don't believe this was in Treblinka: Transit camp or extermination camp, and I've never seen it discussed by either a revisonist or extermanist before. As for the actual content, it does mention bury, not cremated. What could it mean? Maybe the corpses were only partially buried, if you see my line of thought? The document doesn't confirm the homicidal nature of these burials.

[TheDenier2086]

And again, his answer on cremations:

I didn't say fat alone, as heat would obviously need to be present to heat the fat but to dismiss fat as contributing to cremation doesn't appear reasonable.

Cremation experts or operators who agree that fat contributes to cremation include Rudolf Jakobskotter and Ivan Legace (used in trial of Ernst Zuendel by Zuendel's team, and who agrees with points of denial). Even denier Carlo Mattogno recognizes that it "can be done" if performed right, or some such hop scotch.

[Mkk]

On the issue of body fat, after looking through case for sanity, the idea that fat can burn a body on it's own with heat comes from Tauber. See Sanity to see his laughable claims. Another poster will presumably tackle this later more in depth, but here's a relevant section: (Sources copied at bottom)

Page 390 onwards:

In his Polish deposition Tauber states that fat bodies burned by
themselves. I have split his statements into sections to make the refutation easier:
“[1] During a cremation of these bodies we used coke only for
lighting the oven. Fat bodies burned by themselves thanks to the fat
they contained.
[2] It also happened, when there was not enough coke to heat the
gasifiers, that we piled straw and wood into the ash containers
which were beneath the muffles, and as soon as the fat of the corpses
caught fire, the entire load
[593]
burned by its own fire.” (p. 133)
“[3] With the first loads, when the ovens were heated only by the
gasifiers, cremation proceeded slowly. But once further loads were
cremated, they became red-hot thanks to the glowing parts which
formed during the cremation of the corpses, so that, when fat
corpses were cremated, the gasifiers were normally extinguished.
[4] The fat of the corpses placed into such a red-hot oven ran directly into the ash container where it ignited and burned the
corpse.” (p. 142)
[1]: Fundamentally, auto-combustion of a corpse, even a fat one, is a
physical absurdity, if only because of the fact that the combustible portions are, so to speak, immersed in water, which makes up 65% of its
weight.
594
This is confirmed by Tanner’s triangular diagram, valid for
the combustion of solid urban refuse, which gives the region of autocombustion in terms of the following parameters:
Water content: 50% Combustible matter: 25% min.
Incombustibles: 60% max.
From this diagram we can glean that a water content of 65% was
well outside of the region of auto-combustion (Hoepli, p. E-734). As
early as 1925 it was established experimentally that, “if the spent gases
are completely removed from the chamber by closing the valve, the
oven cools down so fast that at most an hour and a half later the body
portions no longer burn, but only smolder.”
595
An “auto-combustion” of
corpses was impossible to achieve even in the best civilian crematoria
in Germany in the 1930s and 40s (see chapter 12.6.).
[2]: Here, Tauber evokes the case of a cold oven (“when there was
not enough coke to heat the gasifiers”) with corpses being introduced
into the muffle and straw and wood into the ash container below. First
of all, we must know that the ash container was a chamber some 35 cm
wide and 45 cm high, closed by means of a lid, 28×35 cm in size. Wood
(obviously in bundles of kindling) and straw were thus allegedly put into this space, the straw was lit, and as soon as the wood had caught fire,
the fat from the corpses (the usual four to five bodies) flowed into the
ash container where it caught fire in turn, and hence the load of four to
five corpses of each muffle “burned by its own fire.” This assertion is
even more absurd than the preceding one, for if auto-combustion of four
to five corpses in an oven heated to 800°C is impossible, an autocombustion in a cold oven would be – so to speak – even more impossible. In Tauber’s account, the wood in the ash container (a few dozen
kilograms
596
) did not serve to bring about the cremation (as in a pyre),
but only to gather the fat of the corpses, after which cremation proceeded by self-combustion.
[3]: Tauber declares that, “when fat corpses were cremated, the gasifiers were normally extinguished.” Beyond the absurdities we have
already discussed, this assertion is technical nonsense and goes against
the normal operation of crematorium ovens. No gasifiers of any oven
were ever temporarily extinguished, not even when the heat they produced was not needed. In this respect, Kessler states (1927, p. 159):
“Whereas with gas heating the heat supply can be precisely controlled, with coke or lignite heating [however] heat is produced also
at times when it is not needed. While it is possible to reduce combustion in the gasifier, it is not possible to turn it off altogether, because
the glowing embers would go out.”
It is clear that an extinction of the fire on the hearth of the gasifier –
aside from the problems indicated above – would have brought about
also a useless loss of time for the re-ignition of the coke when lean
corpses were to be cremated, a waste of precious time in complete disagreement with the mad rate of cremations described by Tauber.
[4]: Tauber describes in what way the alleged self-combustion of
corpses occurred in a hot furnace. We therefore have here the absurdity
already encountered in the first statement. It is certainly true that the fat
from the corpses ignited and burned, but it could certainly not have
burned the corpse itself. What is important to note here is that the technical and experimental data concerning the immediate ignition of the fat
disproves and demolishes in a radical manner Tauber’s description of
the “cremation trenches” (see chapter 10.2.13.)

593
All of the corpses loaded into the oven.
594
This percentage is usually given in the studies re. cremations done in the 1930s, e.g.:
Heepke 1933, p. 124. More recent assessments have a percentage of 64% of water, Davies/Mates, p. 134.
595
“Amtliches,” 1925a, pp. 89-91; cf. Arbeitsgemeinschaft 1926, p. 96.
596
Dry wood branches in bundles weigh 100-120 kg per m³. Hence in the ca. 0.3 m³ of one
ash container one could load (120×0.3 =) 36 kg of branches. Colombo, p. 63.
10.2.9. Embers
In paragraph 3 of the above quotation Tauber asserts that “once further loads were cremated, they [the ovens] became red-hot, thanks to the
glowing parts (żarem) which formed during the cremation of the
corpses.” Tauber adds in this respect (p. 125):
“The cremation process is sped up by the combustion of human
fat which produces further embers.”
Actually, the muffles heated up due to the combustion products of
the gasifiers and of the flames which formed over the corpses. The
embers were not only almost negligible but died out in the ash containers underneath the muffles; their contribution to the heat supply was insignificant. Moreover, it is utterly absurd to claim that the body fat –
which drained out, evaporated and burned – produced embers; it is tantamount to saying that the combustion of gasoline produces embers.

Where did Mattagno say "it can be done"? Where is this poster's source? And yes, fat can contribute to cremations, but that is in ALL cremations, but it doesn't change the one hour or so cremation time! He can't refute the points I made above the document refering to a one hour cremation time, the statements after the war about one hour cremation time, Mattagno's calculations that it would take a hour, the lack of enough coke to cremate everything, and the fact that nothing in the Auchwitz archives details the functions of the rebuilding of the muffles, so is now using the impossible statements from Tauber...