New research uncovers strong evidence that Jews were murdered BEFORE they reached Treblinka

[Zolton]

The revisionist thesis on Treblinka is; hundreds of thousands of Jews were forced into crowded trains and transported eastward towards Treblinka, The conditions on the trains were so inhumane that tens of thousands of them died en route. And of those who didn't die by the time they got to Treblinka and were too weak to continue on, were murdered in a "euthanasia" program at TII. The rest were transported further east.

No it isn't.

Thomas Dalton:

I would further add that, on the revisionist thesis, many thousands of people did indeed die in the camp, of various causes. A high-volume transit camp would have received thousands of incoming dead (recall the “one third” statistic above), and many more would have died of disease and, yes, execution (likely by bullet) at the camp. So it is fully expected that mass graves exist in the camp. But the anticipated number of victims is much smaller—perhaps 10% of those claimed.

borjastick:

Never does he [Dalton] resort to anger or bigotry in his comment but only ever uses calm, evidence based logic and thought to arrive at his conclusions. He never denies that jews were relocated at great human cost. He accepts readily that jews died en route to and at some of the camps, to do otherwise is in my opinion avoiding the facts.

As for the death camps he uses time charts and death rates as well and physical capabilities of the camps, and just for good measure he quotes witnesses too... I do have an open mind to the suffering of jews and others in such transports. I cannot accept that no Jews died in such transports and to do so is the act of an Ostrich.

It is a ridiculous notion to claim that no jews died in transports that were at the very least 'rough' .

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6924&hilit=thomas+dalton+more

[Zolton]

Nazgul:

The lengthy stops at the site of Jewish Labour camps precludes the certainty of mass arrivals at the final destination. It is possible they did, but not probable.

Nazgul, if all you can do is offer us possibilities (you sound like Butterfangers), then

Is it possible that the lengthy stops included time taken to remove dead Jews, and Jews that were sick and dying and in need of some "euthanasia"? Time taken to stuff the train with more Jews taken form the camps that could fit in the trains after the sick and dying were removed?

Is it possible that the lengthy stops included time taken to let the Jews (and the train crews) out of the trains to go to the toilet, get some water and some food, give sick Jews some care or drop off Jews who were too sick to continue, in the hopes that taking a break at a camp would help them get better so they could continue on at a later date?

Is it possible that for each Jew that was removed from the train, another Jew from a camp took his place and continued their journey east?

[hermod]

One cannot debate the Hollow Cost with Chosenites because they consider themselves so much a sacred treasure that even touching a single hair on a Jew's head is an unforgivable crime to them. They're way too supremacist and self-delusional to be argued with and even less challenged. They always go mad as soon as they feel that a subhuman (aka 'Goy') dares contradict the Holy Words flowing from their Chosen Mouths. Funny and amazing.

[Hektor]

One cannot debate the Hollow Cost with Chosenites because they consider themselves so much a sacred treasure that even touching a single hair on a Jew's head is an unforgivable crime to them. They're way too supremacist and self-delusional to be argued with and even less challenged. They always go mad as soon as they feel that a subhuman (aka 'Goy') dares contradict the Holy Words flowing from their Chosen Mouths. Funny and amazing.

You sure will get obnoxious characters that are like that. No idea what the psychopathology is called though... But it has a ring of narcissisms to it.

But it's all the old 'where-did-they-go' canard again. I noticed quite some people used that at as a silver-bullet argument. "If you can't tell me the names and whereabouts of six million Jews after World War Two... then six million Jews have been gassed".

How about applying some rules of Logic?
1.) Don't shift the burden of proof, please. To proof six million Jews were gassed is the task of those perpetuating that narrative. And they already fail with the name of one Jew gassed in Auschwitz, which was the place the attention was centered for so long.
2.) If someone is dead, he probably won't move far afterward. Perhaps people won't know where he is neither. But not knowing the whereabouts of a person, doesn't proof that someone pushed him into a gas chamber.
3.) Cliches, brand names, innuendo and emotional manipulation aren't substitutes for proof. Yet that's what's done over and over again with regards to the Holocaust. This goes together with a vast amount of other circumstantial evidences indicating that the Holocaust Narrative is false.

[borjastick]

Ironically, revisionists are supporting new evidence that strongly supports the hypothesis that the majority of Jews who were being transited eastward towards Treblinka were murdered BEFORE they ever reached the camp.

Been thinking about this post a lot over the festive period and it really pisses me off. The moderators should have stamped on this from the beginning because it makes claims and assumptions that are not and never have been true. No proof or evidence thereof has been shown.

We are not a body organised and represented by some committee or superior leaders. We have never claimed any such nonsense as this claim states and I have never read anything, good or bad, credible or otherwise, that most jews en route to Treblinka were extinguished prior to arrival.

I haven't been asked if I mind being represented by some ethereal spokesperson and I guess most others here haven't either.

This claim is in the words of the great maker 'Total bollocks' and needs to be chucked out with the New Year hangover cure.

[Butterfangers]

We are not a body organised and represented by some committee or superior leaders. We have never claimed any such nonsense as this claim states and I have never read anything, good or bad, credible or otherwise, that most jews en route to Treblinka were extinguished prior to arrival.

I haven't been asked if I mind being represented by some ethereal spokesperson and I guess most others here haven't either.

This is a very bizarre thread, hence why I have generally been avoiding it. I think PR called it correctly on the first page that 'Iris' and 'Zolton' seem to have much in common and presumably the topic of the previous, related thread struck a nerve, which motivated 'Iris' to change "disguises" and create a thread with a satirical proposition to make whatever point he was failing to get at previously (thus sending us into yet another half-dozen pages of opaque nonsense). Of course, in that previous thread I had no intention of declaring the idea(s) expressed as the "official" anything of Revisionism. It was some new information which I thought worth sharing here and tried to explain it best I could. I also invited 'Nazgul' here as it was his RODOH posts where I first learned about any of the Fahrplananordnung documents, the Zwangarbeiterslagers, how this impacts arrivals at TII, etc. I think it's important but, as you state here, in no way adds weight to any claim of Jews being 'exterminated' en route to TII. I've stated this repeatedly however 'Iris' and/or 'Zolton' seem to insist that it [secretly?] carries this suggestion.

[hermod]

But it's all the old 'where-did-they-go' canard again. I noticed quite some people used that at as a silver-bullet argument. "If you can't tell me the names and whereabouts of six million Jews after World War Two... then six million Jews have been gassed".

How about applying some rules of Logic?
1.) Don't shift the burden of proof, please. To proof six million Jews were gassed is the task of those perpetuating that narrative. And they already fail with the name of one Jew gassed in Auschwitz, which was the place the attention was centered for so long.
2.) If someone is dead, he probably won't move far afterward. Perhaps people won't know where he is neither. But not knowing the whereabouts of a person, doesn't proof that someone pushed him into a gas chamber.
3.) Cliches, brand names, innuendo and emotional manipulation aren't substitutes for proof. Yet that's what's done over and over again with regards to the Holocaust. This goes together with a vast amount of other circumstantial evidences indicating that the Holocaust Narrative is false.

That's the exterminationists' usual reverse burden of proof. A classic of the Holohoax smoke and mirrors! The prove-a-negative fallacy is magic, isn't it?

Unsurprisingly, the exterminationists/antirevisionists can't provide the names and new addresses of all the Germans expelled from Eastern Europe during & after WWII. But they don't regard that as a proof that millions of them were killed. Funny double standards.

[Otium]

That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Okay. So you don't know where they went either, that's all you had to say. Because if it's your position that they were killed then it's you who should really know where they are.

As to your other questions, what Butterfangers said sounds quite reasonable to me.

What I want to know is simple. What do you think happened? By this - and listen carefully and try not to go on some tangent where you dodge the question(s) - I mean to figure out what you think did or did not happen. Answer very simply the following questions, you can even do so in a yes/no manner to be concise:

1.) Did Jews Jews get put on trains?
2.) If yes, were all the Jews "murdered"?
3.) If yes, where did they go?

[Hektor]

But it's all the old 'where-did-they-go' canard again. I noticed quite some people used that at as a silver-bullet argument. "If you can't tell me the names and whereabouts of six million Jews after World War Two... then six million Jews have been gassed".

How about applying some rules of Logic?
1.) Don't shift the burden of proof, please. To proof six million Jews were gassed is the task of those perpetuating that narrative. And they already fail with the name of one Jew gassed in Auschwitz, which was the place the attention was centered for so long.
2.) If someone is dead, he probably won't move far afterward. Perhaps people won't know where he is neither. But not knowing the whereabouts of a person, doesn't proof that someone pushed him into a gas chamber.
3.) Cliches, brand names, innuendo and emotional manipulation aren't substitutes for proof. Yet that's what's done over and over again with regards to the Holocaust. This goes together with a vast amount of other circumstantial evidences indicating that the Holocaust Narrative is false.

That's the exterminationists' usual reverse burden of proof. A classic of the Holohoax smoke and mirrors! The prove-a-negative fallacy is magic, isn't it?

Unsurprisingly, the exterminationists/antirevisionists can't provide the names and new addresses of all the Germans expelled from Eastern Europe during & after WWII. But they don't regard that as a proof that millions of them were killed. Funny double standards.

Indeed.

To disprove a hypothesis like the Holocaust, it is sufficient to demonstrate that the proof provided by the proponents a) lacks empirical grounding b) is illogical c) is implausible. It's the case with the Holocaust. They lack empirical proof for industrial style homicidal gassings even any facilities that could do that, the narrative is full of logical contradictions and looking at the bigger picture the narrative is implausible as well. The Exterminationists know that this is actually the case, but instead of changing their mind they simply double down with rescue devices. Them Nazis made the empirical evidence vanish, but what is actually there gets reinterpreted into the extermination narrative. Logical contradictions are either ignored or simply explained away as the witnesses 'were confused due to their trauma' with contradictory or implausible evidence they do the same ignore contradictions or play them down or come up with the tale of the Nazis being irrational lunatics. Since this isn't convincing standing on its own they add lots of innuendo, emotional appeals and moralistic fallacies to it. This won't stand up to fair debate, so they persecute and hound down anyone that questions or disputes their narrative. Historiographers notice this of course and those in doubt will be silenced, leaving those that go with the story in the game. This they then utilize to claim that there is 'scientific consensus by the experts' on the Holocaust. With this they can dupe a substantial number of academic dimwits, which then acts missionaries for their story in education and media. If it wasn't the case, it would be hard to believe that they could dupe people for so long.

The 'where are they, if they weren't gassed' is a classical presume what you have to prove fallacy. And it's special pleading. For missing Germans this somehow doesn't apply. Probably 15 to 20 millions of them have been expelled from their homes, many of whom where killed. The FRG-administration estimated about 2.5 to 3 millions having not survived that policy and events. But you can of course deny this figure, deny the expulsions/genocide, belittle it or even justify or approve it without any fear of any governmental or court action. Not many historians working on this neither. Although there were some, usually individuals that used the gap in that field for their postgraduate dissertations. They will however be marginalized both in academia and book publishing. You need to know of them, if you try to find their literature. I wonder how many younger Germans actually know about this unless their family had some relation to this. Even with them I wonder how much they know about their grand parents being expelled. Germar Rudolf had relatives of that kind and I know several here in South Africa that survived the expulsion as children. Most of them were quite bitter on this and some I know didn't buy the Holocaust narrative neither. To them it was obvious that this was some sort of white-wash and deflection of Allied crimes.

The expulsion subject became an issue for the German right, who was generally more aware of this. But even with them it's limited. The subject is far to morbid, of course. And the general German is already burdened with being Holocausted on a daily basis.

[HeiligeSturm]

If all those crimes happened in Treblinka, who should we trust?
Samuel Willenberg?

What is called for years, is real forensic investigation.

Forensic investigation as shown in Treblinka: Hitler's Killing Machine and it's slightly different version Treblinka Inside Hitler's Secret Death Camp was something special.

Chief Rabbi Michael Schudrich: "If you actually find a mass grave, you have to stop."
Caroline Sturdy Colls: "Yes, of course."
Chief Rabbi Michael Schudrich: "It's simple."

This investigation seems to bother Schudrich.
And this "forensic investigator" basically just drops her "investigation".
She is more willing to accept the stories of Samuel Willenberg.

But what is it with this Chief Rabbi Michael Schudrich?

Israelis Want WWII Bones Returned August 19, 1998
"a task suddenly made possible when Polish pathologists agreed to help their Israeli colleagues identify the victims’ remains."

"Dr. Yehuda Hiss, head of Israel’s Institute of Forensic Medicine, said families have brought remains home to Israel in the past, only to be disappointed when tests showed they were not those of their relatives."

"Kamionka hopes all the bones from the mass graves _ whether they can be identified or not _ will be brought to Israel, for a dignified and permanent burial."

https://apnews.com/article/2148451d7ccd ... c63deb00ea
This same thing was reported in The Gainsville Sun August 20, 1998

So there is no obstacle to do a real, thorough forensic investigation except Schudrich.

WARSAW — 

With the main rabbi of the Polish capital watching, workers removed soil Thursday from a mass grave of Jews in preparation for an exhumation to determine how many people died.
Poland’s Jewish community reluctantly accepted the government’s decision to exhume the bodies of Jews massacred nearly 60 years ago in the northeastern town of Jedwabne as part of an inquiry that also will examine whether anyone should be criminally charged.
Jewish law allows exhumation only in very rare, extreme cases and under strict conditions.
The massacre was long remembered with a memorial that falsely blamed the Nazis for killing about 1,600 Jews in the village. A book published last year disclosed that the slayings were carried out by the victims’ Polish neighbors.

L.A. Times Archives May 25, 2001
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

Jedwabne is still under dispute.

So perhaps Schudrich thinks we just should believe Willenberg's claims?

Schudrich and Willenberg in Death Camp Treblinka Survivor Stories

"She looked at me as if she saw a man from another planet. *
She had gone to Treblinka to look for me.
She got papers to visit the camp,
and she walked around."
- Samuel Willenberg in Treblinka's Last Witness (2016)

This is very interesting because Vasily "We know" Grossman wrote about this secret camp in The Hell of Treblinka:
"And not a single person — not even a field marshal — was allowed near it.
Anyone who happened to come within a kilometer of the camp was shot without warning."

"The guards who had accompanied the prisoners during the journey were not allowed into the camp;
they were not allowed even to cross its outer perimeter."

Somehow Willenberg's mother was able to visit and walk around Treblinka. The Germans didn't inform this poor ol' lady that her son
was a naughty boy and had already escaped the camp.

Forensic investigation and Schudrich?
To paraphrase Grossman: not a single person — not even a forensic investigator — is allowed to do it.

[HeiligeSturm]

Some of the Jews claim that the Germans had thrown a a mixture of lime and chlorine mixed with water, into the wagons to kill them. Others mention quicklime (p22 Belzec, Mattogno)

This is most likely based on article published in The Evening Post, November 25, 1942:

"Others are loaded into goods trucks at the rate of 150 to a truck normally intended for 40 people.
The floor of the truck is covered with a thick layer of lime and splashed with water, and the doors sealed.
Trains are left in sidings for several days. The people are packed so tightly that some die of suffocation.
These are left inside the truck with those slowly dying from the fumes from lime and chlorine and lack of air, water and food.
Those who still survive are sent to special camps at Treblinka, Belizca, and Sobibor,
where they are slaughtered, en masse."
JEWS IN EUROPE A TERRIBLE STORY
in the section Himmler's vile technique
Rugby, Nov. 24 1942

This is interesting: "goods trucks" which were "normally intended for 40 people." Good trucks but never used as good trucks?
Intended for 40 people by whom and why? What about the goods?

As you can read, the original article is messy account of hearsay.

[Zolton]

Butterfangers:

This is a very bizarre thread,..

Do you deny that it is your statements, almost word for word, that make up my opening post?

[Nazgul]

Is it possible that the lengthy stops included time taken to let the Jews (and the train crews) out of the trains to go to the toilet, get some water and some food, give sick Jews some care or drop off Jews who were too sick to continue, in the hopes that taking a break at a camp would help them get better so they could continue on at a later date?

Is it possible that for each Jew that was removed from the train, another Jew from a camp took his place and continued their journey east?

Possible means "able to be done; able to happen or exist." Probable means "likely to happen or be true but not certain." Statistics gives the degree of certainty. It is known that Jews did arrive at various Jewish Labour Camps from destinations like Sobibor (Elias Cohen) and Treblinka (Leon Rytz); both alleged Todeslager. If people arrived from alleged extermination camps from trains to a labour camp, then the converse is highly likely. People must have arrived at the labour camps by train as well, as they had thousands of Jews working in them.

Your question might be relevant for lengthy train journeys say from Corfu, but the Fahrplananordnung cited as evidence of mass arrivals were relatively short. For instance Fplo 587, Sedziszow to Treblinka has a journey time of about 19 hours which includes the stops. As the crow flies the distance from Sedziszow to Treblinka is 265 km (166 mi)

• Sedziszow 3zfj- Kielce 8 Railway Junction (RJ) duration 2h 40 mins stopped 1 hr
• Kielce - Skarzysko 1 (RJ) duration 1 h 46 mins stopped 1 hr
• Skarzysko - Radom 3 duration 1 h 20 min stopped 25 mins
• Radom - Deblin 6 (RJ) duration 2 hrs stopped 59 mins
• Deblin - Lukow (RJ)duration 2 hrs 7 mins stopped 51 mins
• Lukow - Siedlce 7 (RJ) duration 50 mins stopped 1 h 36 mins
• Siedlce - Treblinka 2 duration 2 h 50 mins stopped 4 hours 35 mins

The locations have the number of Jewish Labour Camps in red or in the case of Lukow a site of a major railway junction. There are plenty of other places the trains could have stopped at but did not. In all the Fahrplananordnung documents that mention Treblinka as a final destination have stops either at labour camps for Jews or major rail junctions. In fact all the stops on every existing Fahrplananordnung were major railway junctions, the majority of stops also being Jewish Labour Camps.

Towns along the route which later became labour camps for Jews were not stopped at. Jedrzejow opened 9 November 1942; this camps provided workers for the brewery and a sawmill. Fahrplananordnung 587 was prior to that camp opening. This town was also the site of a major rail junction. It seems that the majority of forced Jewish Labour camps were sited on Major Railway Junctions, the exception being the final destinations.

It is known there was high mobility of Jewish labour as needs arise, witnesses speak of going to many labour camps.
It was only near wars end that the workers were put into konzentrationslager.

[HeiligeSturm]

For Alexander Donat, on his way from Warsaw to Treblinka, “a trip that normally took three hours took six or eight.
We lost all track of time, the night seemed endlessly long.”
The Train Journey - Transit, Captivity, and Witnessing in the Holocaust by Simone Gigliotti
Donat edited a book called The Death Camp Treblinka

[Zolton]

I don't know where they went. I don't know where they are. Nobody knows. Do you?

That's what I'm trying to figure out. Maybe you can help me out here. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The revisionist thesis on the Holocaust is The Final Solution to the Jewish problem was a forced emigration program, not an extermination pogrom.

The revisionist thesis on Treblinka is; hundreds of thousands of Jews were forced into crowded trains and transported eastward towards Treblinka, The conditions on the trains were so inhumane that tens of thousands of them died en route. And of those who didn't die by the time they got to Treblinka and were too weak to continue on, were murdered in a "euthanasia" program at TII. The rest were transported further east.

Now the newest twist on the revisionist thesis regarding Treblinka, is this:

Buttfangers:

A majority of them [Jews] never arrived at TII in the first place... Many or most, it would seem, departed at various labor camps along the way... evidence strongly suggests many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka. [The implication here is, they never got back on a train to continue their journey east]... Since we now know there were forced labor camps at these stops... it seems all but certain that a substantial number of Jews were let off at each of these stops [And again, never got back on a train heading east]... The evidence for Jews having disembarked is stronger than any evidence suggesting they did not... The fact is there were lengthy stops... FACT: The only rational explanation provided thus far for the lengthy stops at labor camps by a train filled with laborers is the departure/exchange of laborers..

And that all of this "new information" according to revisionists, implies:

Butterfangers:

that the question of "where did Jews [sent to Treblinka II] go" is perhaps irrelevant... I want to ensure it is brought further into the Revisionist sphere of discussion as it seems like a critical advancement on the topic of Treblinka and the AR camps and the looming question of "where did they [Jews] go?".

Would you agree with my assessment of the three topics I touched on above?

That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Okay. So you don't know where they went either, that's all you had to say. Because if it's your position that they were killed then it's you who should really know where they are.

As to your other questions, what Butterfangers said sounds quite reasonable to me.

What I want to know is simple. What do you think happened? By this - and listen carefully and try not to go on some tangent where you dodge the question(s) - I mean to figure out what you think did or did not happen. Answer very simply the following questions, you can even do so in a yes/no manner to be concise:

1.) Did Jews Jews get put on trains?
2.) If yes, were all the Jews "murdered"?
3.) If yes, where did they go?

Not so fast Otium. Before I answer those questions, let me make sure we are clear on a couple of things.

Do you deny that the revisionist thesis on the Holocaust is The Final Solution to the Jewish problem was a forced emigration program, not an extermination pogrom.?

Do you deny that the revisionist thesis on Treblinka is; hundreds of thousands of Jews were forced into crowded trains and transported eastward towards Treblinka, The conditions on the trains were so inhumane that tens of thousands of them died en route. And of those who didn't die by the time they got to Treblinka and were too weak to continue on, were murdered in a "euthanasia" program at TII. The rest were transported further east?

Otium:

As to your other questions, what Butterfangers said sounds quite reasonable to me.

And this is what Otium is referring to:

A majority of them [Jews] never arrived at TII in the first place... Many or most, it would seem, departed at various labor camps along the way... evidence strongly suggests many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka. [The implication here is, they never got back on a train to continue their journey east]... Since we now know there were forced labor camps at these stops... it seems all but certain that a substantial number of Jews were let off at each of these stops [And again, never got back on a train heading east]... The evidence for Jews having disembarked is stronger than any evidence suggesting they did not... The fact is there were lengthy stops... FACT: The only rational explanation provided thus far for the lengthy stops at labor camps by a train filled with laborers is the departure/exchange of laborers... The question of "where did Jews [sent to Treblinka II] go" is perhaps irrelevant... I want to ensure it is brought further into the Revisionist sphere of discussion as it seems like a critical advancement on the topic of Treblinka and the AR camps and the looming question of "where did they [Jews] go?".