Origin of the 5 million non-Jews killed in holocaust lie

[Carto's Cutlass Supreme]

According to Deborah Lipstadt, the often heard 5 million non Jews and 6 million Jews, comes from Simon Wiesenthal who just made it up. I saw the link at the IHR to Lipstadt's review of Tom Segev's bio on Wiesenthal.

When Israeli historians Yehuda Bauer and Yisrael Gutman challenged Wiesenthal on this point, he admitted that he had invented the figure of eleven million victims in order to stimulate interest in the Holocaust among non-Jews. He chose five million because it was almost, but not quite, as large as six million. When Elie Wiesel asked Wiesenthal who these supposed five million victims were, Wiesenthal exploded and accused him of suffering from "Judeocentrism." In recent months, Wiesenthal's concoction has been further improved upon by a group of rabbis and imams who visited Auschwitz under the aegis of the US State Department. The statement they issued after their visit referred to the "twelve million victims, six million Jews and six million non-Jews." Now we have parity. One wonders what's next.

Segev, for his part, explains away Wiesenthal's invention of the "eleven million" as his means of stressing "the brotherhood of all the victims," something Jews generally fail to do. He lauds Wiesenthal for "judg[ing] people by their deeds and merits rather than by their group affiliation. This was the basis for his humanistic views and his faith in justice. It was the basis for his belief in good and his longing for conciliation."

http://www.jewishreviewofbooks.com/publ ... of-history

[Kingfisher]

I think this is closely enough related to stay in the same thread, but I'm willing to move it if people object.

I have read in various places that even the believers among historians today don't take the six million figure seriously, merely paying the lip service to it that the rest of the world must, and in a book review in Inconvenient History of Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews, by Peter Longerich, Thomas Dalton comments:

Finally, what was, to me, the most surprising omission: the 'six million' is nowhere to be found. Not once does Longerich mention this number, so vital to the orthodox account that the powers-that-be are willing to mete out prison sentences and book-burnings for those who dispute it. And it's not that he has an alternative figure; he simply offers none at all. On a couple of occasions I found mention of "millions" of Jewish deaths—but how are we to take this? If it's 'two millions,' then Longerich is in for trouble. Whatever he has in mind, I think revisionists should take heart here: the absence of the sacred touchstone may portend a future backing-down, and thus yet another concession to revisionism.

Does anyone have any other evidence to support this thesis?

[Inquisitive]

As Segev shows, Wiesenthal's account of his experiences during the years of the Holocaust is clearly fabricated

from the link CCS posted.

Are they now going to close those horrendous hate "centers"? Give back any of the money? Apologize for attacking the Germans? Will the media pick up on this and continue to bring down this repulsive character? Didn't think so

[SevenUp]

According to Deborah Lipstadt, the often heard 5 million non Jews and 6 million Jews, comes from Simon Wiesenthal who just made it up. I saw the link at the IHR to Lipstadt's review of Tom Segev's bio on Wiesenthal.

When Israeli historians Yehuda Bauer and Yisrael Gutman challenged Wiesenthal on this point, he admitted that he had invented the figure of eleven million victims in order to stimulate interest in the Holocaust among non-Jews. He chose five million because it was almost, but not quite, as large as six million. When Elie Wiesel asked Wiesenthal who these supposed five million victims were, Wiesenthal exploded and accused him of suffering from "Judeocentrism." In recent months, Wiesenthal's concoction has been further improved upon by a group of rabbis and imams who visited Auschwitz under the aegis of the US State Department. The statement they issued after their visit referred to the "twelve million victims, six million Jews and six million non-Jews." Now we have parity. One wonders what's next.

Segev, for his part, explains away Wiesenthal's invention of the "eleven million" as his means of stressing "the brotherhood of all the victims," something Jews generally fail to do. He lauds Wiesenthal for "judg[ing] people by their deeds and merits rather than by their group affiliation. This was the basis for his humanistic views and his faith in justice. It was the basis for his belief in good and his longing for conciliation."

http://www.jewishreviewofbooks.com/publ ... of-history

Absolutely classic !

[Carto's Cutlass Supreme]

I think I looked up holocaust in World Book Encyclopedia and it said 5 million non-Jews. Lipstadt gives other major figures who repeated that, like Jimmy Carter's committee or something like that.

But I remember seeing in the movie "One Third Of The Holocaust" about an April 1945 congressional committee hearing, Presided by Emmanuel Celler and another congressman, and in it Joseph Thon's speech where Thon mentions 15 million people of which 6 million were Jews. So some level of this was there from the beginning. It's just could there really be that many Roma, Sinta, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals? It's such a muddled story! haha.

The other thing is the forgiveness of lying with Weisenthal. It reminds me of the forgiveness of Irene Zisblatt by that Michigan professor. Or the forgiveness of Wiesel because "conceptually it's true." Or "some things are true that never happened." I mean contrary to what people think, there is a lot of forgiveness in that community. LOL.

[Carto's Cutlass Supreme]

I looked up "holocaust" and "concentration camp" in World Book Encyclopedia. A huge reference for middle school and high school. Both entries made Wiesenthal's fabricated lie have more of a researched feel, saying something like "although the exact amount can never be known it is believed that 11 million died in which 6 million were Jews." There you have it: 5 million non-Jews.

[Balsamo]

Does anyone have any other evidence to support this thesis?

My testimony ? lol.

Just here on this forum i have stressed many times that historians don't care about this number, though as a matter of fact, it is written in public's mind, and in jewish sensibilities, therefore, Historians don't bother to contest publically and loudly its public existance neither. This 6 millions is a shortcut, based on thin air, but that does not mean that the magnitude of the disaster is that wrong. Public Opinion relies often on such shortcuts regarding historical events. And So do the revisionists when they stick with their obsession regarding this number.
The famous " 6 millions - 2 millions = 6 millions" is as stupid and based on thin air as the 6.000.000 figures itself.

It is comprehensible that the " Holocaust industry" sticks with the figure, because you have to keep it simple for the general public. I guess most of you don't consider "advbertising" on TV as "scienfific documentaries", do you ?
Hilberg estimate never got over 5.100.000...But a genocide should not be defined by the numbers of victims, which are often unknown precisely. And that is valid with all "Shoah's", not only the jewish one!

And by the way, it is quite rare to find Wiesenthal's name in any serious scientific research on the subject.

[Cloud]

Just here on this forum i have stressed many times that historians don't care about this number, though as a matter of fact, it is written in public's mind, and in jewish sensibilities, therefore, Historians don't bother to contest publically and loudly its public existance neither. This 6 millions is a shortcut, based on thin air, but that does not mean that the magnitude of the disaster is that wrong. Public Opinion relies often on such shortcuts regarding historical events. And So do the revisionists when they stick with their obsession regarding this number.
The famous " 6 millions - 2 millions = 6 millions" is as stupid and based on thin air as the 6.000.000 figures itself.

If I recall correctly, it was originally claimed that 6,000 persons died in the WTC attacks. Today, it is claimed that the actual death toll is roughly half that. Now, If the public or media figures were to say today in 2011 that 6,000 persons died in the WTC on 9/11, would that be considered a mere "shortcut?" No, of course not - that would be a gross error, and it would be quickly pointed out as such. Since establishment historians and revisionists both agree that the six million figure is incorrect, they should both inform the public that this is indeed the case. After all, people shouldn't continue believing in things that are simply not true...right?

[Balsamo]

Cloud,

I don't think one can compare an isolate incident like 9/11 and a process like the Holocaust that has been carry on during 4 years in different manners. As far as i remember, when i saw the tower tumbling down, i thought the dead tolls would be in the 10's of thousands...the whole day, the number got more precise (and yes more suspiscious), and the 3600 +- were quickly established.

You know just like all of us that the first "russian estimates" were 4.000.000 for Birkenau; 1.500.000 for Majdenek...numbers that were spread around the world by the Communist press and papers. of course, they did not insist on the Jewishness of the victims...But still we have already more than 5.500.000 just for those two camps alone ! It would be interresting to sum up the russian estimates of 45, btw.
From there, two things
- Those figures were even superior than the Jewish organization estimates
- Those figures did not last very long (at least in the west).
- In this regards, Hillberg cut the number by more than a half.

But more important, those fantasy numbers does not mean that no one was killed in those camps...

Since establishment historians and revisionists both agree that the six million figure is incorrect, they should both inform the public that this is indeed the case.

The agreement stops there, i am affraid. But that what is done, already...Anyone who cares to read good researches won't find this figure, but a whole range of estimates. Historians are not popstars or politicians. They do conferences and speeches in front of a hundred people (when famous) or a few dozens of students (most of the times), publish books (when famous), articles in specialized revues (most of the time)...that is all they can do...I would add that Historians are not meant to be famous, their goal is to have their work recognized by his peers...I personnally would not trust a lot any Historian who keeps being invited on TV shows to spread his words...
I think again, you are confusing the Holocaust industry which is not meant to make new discoveries, and most of the time prevent questions from being asked and Historical researches, which most of the time are anonymous, rarely translated in foreign languages...and even difficult to find on the net...Historical science is not popular, and scientifical articles most of the times just bore the public...and certainly are not available at Barnes and Nobel...

[Hannover]

Hmm. Balsamo want's to discuss the alleged '6,000,000' while the thread is about the additionally alleged '5,000,000 others'. No subject changing, Balsamo.

Knowing that the 'grand total' claimed is at least 11,000,000 makes the lack of human remains even more obvious. 11,000,000 claimed murders and a not single mass grave as alleged can be shown, not one.
And, the storyline claims that these 'others' were supposedly murdered using the same methods as the fictitious '6,000,000 Jews'. So, essentially, the impossibility of the gassings and cremations of Jews as alleged is now doubled, which simply makes the laughable claims even more ridiculous ... if that's possible.

Balsamo, do you believe in the magic German 'gas chambers'?

- Hannover

[Hannover]

from a previous thread:

Remember that the alleged grand total is actually 11,000,000-12,000,000. These 'others' were supposedly killed in the same manner as the Jews. Imagine, 12 million bodies and they cannot show us one mass grave commensurate with the storyline. Not one. In a real court of law, among other things, the murder weapon and methods alleged would be examined closely. The only forensic report on the alleged weapon submitted at Nuremberg was a detailed Soviet document which claimed that the Germans used a steam chamber for mass murder ... a steam chamber..

The onus is upon the accusers to present the proof. Revisionists simply look at what has been presented and expose the impossible absurdity of it all.

It's all so easy.

- Hannover

Here's what constitutes proof for the True Believers, from a earler post:

In many countries you will be arrested and thrown in jail for finding anything irregular about these "eyewitness" testimonies.

- Hannover

The so called 'Holocaust' / The Theatre of the Absurd

· Mass graves expelling geysers of blood;[1]

· Acid or boiling-water baths to produce human skeletons;[2]

· Injections into the eyes of inmates to change their eye color;[3]

· Production of shrunken heads from bodies of inmates;[4]

· Skimming off boiling human fat from open-air cremation fires;[5]

· Out of pity for complete strangers - a Jewish mother and her child - an SS-man leaps into the gas chamber voluntarily at the last second in order to die with them;[6]

· Soap production from human fat, solemn burial of soap;[7]

· Underground mass extermination in enormous rooms, by means of high voltage electricity;[8]

· Killing in vacuum chamber or with steam or chlorine gas;[9]

· Mass graves with hundreds of thousands of bodies, removed without a trace within a few weeks; a true miracle of improvisation on the part of the Germans;[10]

· Gas chambers on wheels in Treblinka, which dumped their victims directly into burning pits; delayed-action poison gas that allowed the victims to leave the gas chambers and walk to the mass graves by themselves;[11]

· Electrical conveyor-belt executions;[12]

· Cremation of bodies in blast furnaces;[13]

· SS bicycle races in the gas chamber of Birkenau;[14]

· Removal of corpses by means of blasting, i.e., blowing them up;[15]

· Blue haze after gassing with hydrocyanic acid (which is colorless);[16]

· Singing of national anthems and the Internationales by the victims in the gas chamber; evidence for atrocity propaganda of Communist origin;[17]

· Rapid-construction portable gas chamber sheds;[18]

· Killing by drinking a glass of liquid hydrocyanic acid;[19]

· Muscles cut from the legs of executed inmates contract so strongly that it makes the buckets jump about;[20]

· Introduction of Zyklon gas into the gas chambers of Auschwitz through shower heads or from steel bottles.[21]

· The SS made sausage in the crematoria out of human flesh.[22]

· Mummified human thumbs were used as light switches in the house of Ilse Koch, wife of KZ commander Koch (Buchenwald).[23]

. Breathed through a keyhole in a gas chamber door at Flossburg to stay alive, cursed the SS when they opened the door, then ran away. [24]
==============================================
sources:
[1] A. Rückerl, op. cit. (note 141), p. 273f.; E. Wiesel, Paroles d'Etranger, Editiondu Seuil, Paris 1982, p. 86; A. Eichmann, in: H. Arendt, op. cit. (note 179), p.184; B. Naumann, op. cit. (note 142), p. 214.
[2] F. Müller, in: H. Langbein, op. cit. (note 151), v. 1, p. 87; witness Wells in the Eichmann Trial, in: F. J. Scheidl, op. cit. (note 74), v. 4, p. 236.
[3] H. Langbein, Menschen in Auschwitz, op. cit. (note 152), pp. 383f.
[4] H. Langbein, ibid., p. 381.
[5] R. Höß, in: M. Broszat (ed.), op. cit. (note 71), p. 130; H. Tauber, in: J.-C. Pressac, op. cit. (note 17), pp. 489f.; F. Müller, Sonderbehandlung, Steinhausen,Munich 1979, pp. 207f., 217ff.; H. Langbein, Menschen in Auschwitz, op. cit.(note 152), p. 148; B. Naumann, op. cit. (note 142), pp. 10, 334f., 443; S. Steinberg, according to: Französisches Büro des Informationsdienstes überKriegsverbrechen (ed.), Konzentrationslager Dokument 321, Reprint 2001, Frankfurt/Main 1993, p. 206; and many more.
[6] E. Bonhoeffer, op. cit. (note 213), pp. 48f.
[7] S. Wiesenthal, Der neue Weg (Vienna), 15/16 & 17/18, 1946; the Soviets wanted to make this one of the charges at the IMT (exhibit USSR-393), but this plan failed due to the other Allies; cf. H. Härtle, Freispruch für Deutschland, Schütz, Göttingen 1965, pp. 126ff.; the Greenwood Cemetery in Atlanta (Georgia, USA) is not the only site to boast a Holocaust-memorial gravestone for 4 bars of "Jewish soap". Cf. also the following corrections: R. Harwood, D. Felderer, JHR 1(2) (1980) pp. 131-139; M. Weber, JHR 11(2) (1991) pp. 217-227.
[8] Aside from C. Mattogno, op. cit. (note 339), cf. esp. S. Szende, Der letzte Jude aus Polen, Europa-Verlag, Zürich 1945; S. Wiesenthal, Der neue Weg (Vienna), 19/20, 1946.
[9] Aside from C. Mattogno, op. cit. (note 339), cf. esp. W. Grossmann, Die Hölle von Treblinka, Verlag für fremdsprachige Literatur, Moscow 1947; The Black Book of Polish Jewry, Roy Publishers, New York 1943.
[10] Aside from note 349, cf. also W. Benz, Dimension des Völkermords, Oldenbourg, Munich 1991; pp. 320, 469, 479, 489, 537ff.
[11] Reports of the Polish underground movement, Archiv der Polnischen Vereinigten Arbeiterpartei, 202/III, v. 7, pp. 120f., quoted in: P. Longerich, op. cit.(note 271), p. 438.
[12] Pravda, Feb. 2, 1945, cf. U. Walendy, Historische Tatsachen No. 31: "Die Befreiung von Auschwitz 1945", Verlag für Volkstum und Zeitgeschichtsforschung, Vlotho 1987, p. 4.
[13] H. von Moltke, Briefe an Freya 1939-1945, Beck, Munich 1988, p. 420; cf. P. Longerich (ed.), op. cit. (note 271), p. 435; Pravda, Feb. 2, 1945.
[14] Nürnberger Nachrichten, Sept. 11, 1978, report about eyewitness testimony in the jury court trial in Aschaffenburg.
[15] R. Höß, in: M. Broszat (ed.), op. cit. (note 71), pp. 161f.; A. Rückerl, NS-Prozesse, op. cit. (note 127), p. 78; H. Grabitz, NS-Prozesse., op. cit. (note191), p. 28.
[16] R. Böck, Frankfurt Public Prosecutor's Office, Ref. 4 Js 444/59, pp. 6881f.
[17] H. G. Adler, H. Langbein, E. Lingens-Reiner (eds.), Auschwitz - Zeugnisse und Berichte, Europäische Verlagsanstalt, Cologne 1984, p. 76.
[18] R. Aschenauer (ed.), Ich, Adolf Eichmann, Druffel, Leoni 1980, pp. 179f.
[19] Verdict of the Hannover District Court, Ref. 2 Ks 1/60; cf. H. Lichtenstein, op. cit. (note 84), p. 83.
[20] F. Müller, op. cit. (note 345), p. 74.
[21] M. Scheckter and a report of June 4, 1945, written by an officer of the 2nd Armored Division, about Auschwitz; Französisches Büro des Informationsdienstes über Kriegsverbrechen (ed.), op. cit. (note 345), p. 184.
[22] David Pressac, in J.-C. Pressac, op. cit. (note 17), p. 554, fourth column, lines 17-22.
[23] Kurt Glass, New York Times, April 10. 1995.
from: 'Death Was Our Destiny',p.49-50, by Arnold Friedman,
Vantage Press, 1972.
[24] Arnold Friedman, Death Was Our Destiny, Vantage Press, 1972, p.49-50

[Hannover]

Does anyone have any other evidence to support this thesis?

My testimony ? lol.

Just here on this forum i have stressed many times that historians don't care about this number, though as a matter of fact, it is written in public's mind, and in jewish sensibilities, therefore, Historians don't bother to contest publically and loudly its public existance neither. This 6 millions is a shortcut, based on thin air, but that does not mean that the magnitude of the disaster is that wrong. Public Opinion relies often on such shortcuts regarding historical events. And So do the revisionists when they stick with their obsession regarding this number.
The famous " 6 millions - 2 millions = 6 millions" is as stupid and based on thin air as the 6.000.000 figures itself.

It is comprehensible that the " Holocaust industry" sticks with the figure, because you have to keep it simple for the general public. I guess most of you don't consider "advbertising" on TV as "scienfific documentaries", do you ?
Hilberg estimate never got over 5.100.000...But a genocide should not be defined by the numbers of victims, which are often unknown precisely. And that is valid with all "Shoah's", not only the jewish one!

And by the way, it is quite rare to find Wiesenthal's name in any serious scientific research on the subject.

So Balsamo says 'historians' do not care about the 6M number'. So then, there are no 'historians' who use the 6M number, right?

You gotta love Balsamo's use of shyster Hilberg to buttress the moronic 'holocaust', see;

see Hilberg sliced & diced here:

'fraudulent historian Hilberg exposed in court'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=100
and:
''holocaust historian' Hilberg dissected'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=312
and:
'thoroughly discredited 'holocaust historian' Hilberg dies'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4442

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurdity of the 'holocaust' fraud is the message.

- Hannover

[Kingfisher]

And, the storyline claims that these 'others' were supposedly murdered using the same methods as the fictitious '6,000,000 Jews'. So, essentially, the impossibility of the gassings and cremations of Jews as alleged is now doubled, which simply makes the laughable claims even more ridiculous ... if that's possible.

But it's worse than that. Their own claims deny it. Of the 1.1M allegedly killed at Auschwitz a whole 1M were Jews, and for Treblinka the disproportion is even huger: IIRC something like 2,000 non-Jewish victims acknowledged. They can't tell you anything about the "other" 5M: not who they were or where they died. It's just occasionally repeated for propaganda by, usually, uninformed persons. It's become an embarrassment to the Industry, who are concerned to emphasise the Jewish exclusivity of the Big H. Suppose they had to demand reparations for the "survivors" of the 5M? They don't acknowledge them in any of their memorial centres, and I don't think they get a mention in "Holocaust education".

As has been commented earlier: if 6M/5M refers to total losses, it is far too low for the non-Jews; if it refers only to those deliberately murdered in an alleged racial Holocaust there is no way they could ever remotely approach the 5M figure. (Leaving 6M out of the discussion.)