I got interested in this subject years ago. When West Germany agreed to
compensate victims of the holocaust, survivors started coming out of the
woodwork. I asked the German Information Center for the number of surviving
Jews who made claims for restitution, or "Wiedergutmaching". They sent me
a pamphlet called FOCUS ON, dated May 1985. The number was 4,393,365.
This number represents a bare minimum, since the head of a household
survivor makes one claim, for his entire family. No record could be found for
the number of dependents that also survived.
The ADL put out an anthology called THE HOLOCAUST AND GENOCIDE for
the purpose of teaching holocaust to NJ HS students. A large table called
"Estimated Number of Jews Killed in the Final Solution". It gives the
"Estimated pre-final solution population", 1938 for each nation in Europe, and
next to it is another column called "Estimated Jewish Population Annihilated".
The difference of course is trhe number of survivors. In Eastern Europe and
the USSR, the survivors number 2,522,000. (East Germany did not offer
restitution to survivors in Eastern Europe, as W. Germany did.)
By adding this number to the survivors in the West, a sum of the survivors is
6,915,365. How many Jews were there in the areas occupied by the Natzi's
before the war? The ADL lists 8,861,800. Subtracting, we get 1,946,435 as the
maximum number of Jews who died of all causes in occupied territory from
1938 to 1945.
Restitution questions
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Hebden
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Re: Restitution questions
Ed Toner wrote:I got interested in this subject years ago. When West Germany agreed to compensate victims of the holocaust, survivors started coming out of the woodwork. I asked the German Information Center for the number of surviving Jews who made claims for restitution, or "Wiedergutmaching". They sent me a pamphlet called FOCUS ON, dated May 1985. The number was 4,393,365. This number represents a bare minimum, since the head of a household survivor makes one claim, for his entire family. No record could be found for the number of dependents that also survived.
So what has become of this pamphlet?
It is no longer available, I am told. I have copies made, but I made so many that the quality suffers. I can make more from it if you wish. I cannot scan them, they must go by snail mail.
Contact me at [email protected].
Contact me at [email protected].
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Hebden
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Ed Toner wrote:It is no longer available, I am told. I have copies made, but I made so many that the quality suffers. I can make more from it if you wish. I cannot scan them, they must go by snail mail.
Contact me at [email protected].
It will suffice for you to present here the pertinent numbers or text which arrive at this figure of 4.9 million.
We are looking to be assured that this figure pertains only to Jewish survivors themselves.
It does include non-Jews. I asked the Center if they had any figures for non-Jews. She replied, "No, but it was very small". She also added that the figures for Jewish survivors ONLY listed the head of household, and that for instance, if a household consisted of 4 survivors, only 1 would show in the total figures, so the numbers are NOT exact, but they certainly show that the 6 million figure is a gross exaggeration.
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Hebden
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Ed Toner wrote:It does include non-Jews.
Let's get this straight: does this figure of 4.4 million (our 4.9 million was a mistake) include non-Jews?
I asked the Center if they had any figures for non-Jews. She replied, "No, but it was very small". She also added that the figures for Jewish survivors ONLY listed the head of household, and that for instance, if a household consisted of 4 survivors, only 1 would show in the total figures, so the numbers are NOT exact, but they certainly show that the 6 million figure is a gross exaggeration.
This pamphlet sounds interesting, therefore we repeat our request for you to provide some of the relevant text or numbers in order that we may judge for ourselves. Someone here can translate from the German if required.
As I sail, I have no way of posting it, capish?
ADL mole? Moi?
To the editor of Spotlight,
The obituary notice of Irwin Suall of the ADL brought back some memories for me. Your story dealt mostly with the ADL’s aThections against some of the most patriotic organizations in the USA. They did not stop there. They went after me, an individual.
I am now a retired TWA Captain, as well as a retired LCDR USN. During the 1970’s, I flew many trips to Tel Aviv. What I saw there was just the opposite of what I read about the place in the newspapers. The media claims that Israel was “The only Democracy in the Mid-East” were shockingly wrong. Israel is as much a two-tier society today as Germany was in 1939. They just inverted the place, put the Jews on top, and the Gentiles underfoot.
This was not outwardly noticeable at first. The place was obviously Jewish, but I figured, “Naturally, it’s The Jewish State”. There were a few minor inconveniences such as no ham and cheese sandwiches on rye, no activity on Saturdays, etc., but all in all, a layover in the Tel Aviv Hilton was considered a good one.
The crews were given the same rooms each trip, so I got the same housekeeper, who I assumed was a nice Jewish lady. As is the custom, I brought her a small box of Chocolates each trip. She was very thankful. On one occasion, I got talking with her. It was Saturday, and she was working. I asked her if she was violating Jewish law by working. To my surprise, she told me she was not Jewish, but an Orthodox Christian.
We spoke further about how things were for a Christian in The Jewish State. “Bad, real bad, Captain” was her reply. I questioned her further and got such a hard luck story as to be almost unbelievable, but this was a very open and honest woman. She told me of the discrimination she faced on a daily basis, the hardships of having to live in a segregated area far from work, the lower wages paid to Christians, pat-down body searches by Israeli soldiers at check points, and so on. She was in tears when she finally finished. I was very mad.
I started writing critical letters to the editor of local newspapers describing what was going on in Israel. I started researching the subject of Israel, Zionism, etc.. Libraries were about useless, and I never heard of Spotlight, or Liberty Bell, or National Front, Christian News and others who were speaking out, so I was not well informed, and the Zionists came after me, rebutting my letters with their own. (Keep in mind, I am living in New Jersey, the Garden State, so named because there is a Rosenbloom on every street.)
Finally, a few sympathizers sent me titles and addresses of good sources of information on the subject. Soon, I had a compact library of material. My letters became more hard-hitting, and more difficult to rebut. Enter Mr. Suall, of the ADL. In a letter to my Chief Pilot, he complained loudly about how there was an anti-Semite flying TWA’s airplanes, to Tel Aviv, of all places. How does TWA expect it’s Jewish passengers feel with a maniac like this flying them? I was hauled in to the office and asked to explain myself. I did. I told my boss I was exercising my freedom of the press, and I was not involving the company in my letters. I also pointed out that the Gentiles in Israel were Semites, whereas most of the Jews were not.
Apparently Suall became enraged that no action was taken. More letters followed in which I was described as insane, dangerous, a poor pilot, a drunk, a wife beater, a child abuser, etc. and for G-d’s sake, shut this man up!. All this was nonsense, of course. I have a lovely Irish wife and 6 healthy, happy children. When asked by the boss what I had to say for myself, I called Suall a liar. I asked if there was any proof of what he said. There was none. By this time I brought the union into the picture. I was a member of the Air Line Pilots Association. It was agreed that so long as I did not mention TWA, or ALPA in my letters, it was hands off.
In the meantime, I did some investigating myself. Posing as a fellow Jew, on the phone, I spoke to Mr. Suall and pretended to be upset with the letters to the editor from this idiot Toner. Mr. Suall gave me some names of locals who were passing the information to the ADL. I had some fun with them. I ran an advertisement about a fabulous garage sale this fellow was having. Antique shotguns, Samovars, Persian Carpets. Etc., all at ridiculously low prices. I gave the snitch’s address, and made a point that the sale would start promptly at 6AM. I drove by the place, and there were 2 police cars trying to control the mob – a real riot! By this time, the ADL had given up on me, and turned the dirty work over to the JWV, my comrades in arms – not. They applied the same pressure as the ADL, but to no avail – I kept writing. By this time, I was an expert. The head of the JWV in NJ found himself without a phone one day. I had called the operator and pleaded with her to change “my” (his, actually) number to an unlisted one now – I was a poor Jew being harassed by anti-Semites! It was late Friday, and he didn’t know his own phone number for a week!
Every time I would be called into the office to explain myself for yet another letter, I would ask my boss for a copy. It only worked once. I wanted to sue the ADL with these letters as the basis of a libel suit. The union contract called for my jacket to be available to me, and that I was entitled to be copied on any negative material in it. There was nothing in it. It was then I discovered that there were 2 jackets, one of which was kept from me, which was in violation of the contract. I went to Queens DA Mario Merolla and told him about this, and pointed out that libel was a criminal as well as civil offense in NY (I was working out of JFK). He promptly told TWA to cease this, and hand over the other jack.
et. By the time I went back to the office, it had “accidentally” gone into the shredder. Too bad, but the harassment ceased, and I continued my career to get 30 years in , retiring in 1987 at the age of 56
Ed Toner
This was published 12 Oct 1998
ADL mole? Moi?
To the editor of Spotlight,
The obituary notice of Irwin Suall of the ADL brought back some memories for me. Your story dealt mostly with the ADL’s aThections against some of the most patriotic organizations in the USA. They did not stop there. They went after me, an individual.
I am now a retired TWA Captain, as well as a retired LCDR USN. During the 1970’s, I flew many trips to Tel Aviv. What I saw there was just the opposite of what I read about the place in the newspapers. The media claims that Israel was “The only Democracy in the Mid-East” were shockingly wrong. Israel is as much a two-tier society today as Germany was in 1939. They just inverted the place, put the Jews on top, and the Gentiles underfoot.
This was not outwardly noticeable at first. The place was obviously Jewish, but I figured, “Naturally, it’s The Jewish State”. There were a few minor inconveniences such as no ham and cheese sandwiches on rye, no activity on Saturdays, etc., but all in all, a layover in the Tel Aviv Hilton was considered a good one.
The crews were given the same rooms each trip, so I got the same housekeeper, who I assumed was a nice Jewish lady. As is the custom, I brought her a small box of Chocolates each trip. She was very thankful. On one occasion, I got talking with her. It was Saturday, and she was working. I asked her if she was violating Jewish law by working. To my surprise, she told me she was not Jewish, but an Orthodox Christian.
We spoke further about how things were for a Christian in The Jewish State. “Bad, real bad, Captain” was her reply. I questioned her further and got such a hard luck story as to be almost unbelievable, but this was a very open and honest woman. She told me of the discrimination she faced on a daily basis, the hardships of having to live in a segregated area far from work, the lower wages paid to Christians, pat-down body searches by Israeli soldiers at check points, and so on. She was in tears when she finally finished. I was very mad.
I started writing critical letters to the editor of local newspapers describing what was going on in Israel. I started researching the subject of Israel, Zionism, etc.. Libraries were about useless, and I never heard of Spotlight, or Liberty Bell, or National Front, Christian News and others who were speaking out, so I was not well informed, and the Zionists came after me, rebutting my letters with their own. (Keep in mind, I am living in New Jersey, the Garden State, so named because there is a Rosenbloom on every street.)
Finally, a few sympathizers sent me titles and addresses of good sources of information on the subject. Soon, I had a compact library of material. My letters became more hard-hitting, and more difficult to rebut. Enter Mr. Suall, of the ADL. In a letter to my Chief Pilot, he complained loudly about how there was an anti-Semite flying TWA’s airplanes, to Tel Aviv, of all places. How does TWA expect it’s Jewish passengers feel with a maniac like this flying them? I was hauled in to the office and asked to explain myself. I did. I told my boss I was exercising my freedom of the press, and I was not involving the company in my letters. I also pointed out that the Gentiles in Israel were Semites, whereas most of the Jews were not.
Apparently Suall became enraged that no action was taken. More letters followed in which I was described as insane, dangerous, a poor pilot, a drunk, a wife beater, a child abuser, etc. and for G-d’s sake, shut this man up!. All this was nonsense, of course. I have a lovely Irish wife and 6 healthy, happy children. When asked by the boss what I had to say for myself, I called Suall a liar. I asked if there was any proof of what he said. There was none. By this time I brought the union into the picture. I was a member of the Air Line Pilots Association. It was agreed that so long as I did not mention TWA, or ALPA in my letters, it was hands off.
In the meantime, I did some investigating myself. Posing as a fellow Jew, on the phone, I spoke to Mr. Suall and pretended to be upset with the letters to the editor from this idiot Toner. Mr. Suall gave me some names of locals who were passing the information to the ADL. I had some fun with them. I ran an advertisement about a fabulous garage sale this fellow was having. Antique shotguns, Samovars, Persian Carpets. Etc., all at ridiculously low prices. I gave the snitch’s address, and made a point that the sale would start promptly at 6AM. I drove by the place, and there were 2 police cars trying to control the mob – a real riot! By this time, the ADL had given up on me, and turned the dirty work over to the JWV, my comrades in arms – not. They applied the same pressure as the ADL, but to no avail – I kept writing. By this time, I was an expert. The head of the JWV in NJ found himself without a phone one day. I had called the operator and pleaded with her to change “my” (his, actually) number to an unlisted one now – I was a poor Jew being harassed by anti-Semites! It was late Friday, and he didn’t know his own phone number for a week!
Every time I would be called into the office to explain myself for yet another letter, I would ask my boss for a copy. It only worked once. I wanted to sue the ADL with these letters as the basis of a libel suit. The union contract called for my jacket to be available to me, and that I was entitled to be copied on any negative material in it. There was nothing in it. It was then I discovered that there were 2 jackets, one of which was kept from me, which was in violation of the contract. I went to Queens DA Mario Merolla and told him about this, and pointed out that libel was a criminal as well as civil offense in NY (I was working out of JFK). He promptly told TWA to cease this, and hand over the other jack.
et. By the time I went back to the office, it had “accidentally” gone into the shredder. Too bad, but the harassment ceased, and I continued my career to get 30 years in , retiring in 1987 at the age of 56
Ed Toner
This was published 12 Oct 1998
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Hebden
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- Posts: 467
- Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 11:17 am
- Location: Here and there, mostly there
Ed Toner wrote:As I sail, I have no way of posting it, capish?
Not the whole thing, just a few choice extracts so we can see who had been claiming what. Is your time so valuable that you can't spare us a couple of hours?
ADL mole? Moi?
To the editor of Spotlight,
We guessed you would post that. Your name rang a bell. You could, of course, still be an ADL mole though.
Like I said, e-mail [email protected] and give me your postal.
To do it by mail, send a SASE to Ed Toner
481B Jason Place
Brick NJ 08724.
We can talk at 732-840-4203.
Final word from here.
To do it by mail, send a SASE to Ed Toner
481B Jason Place
Brick NJ 08724.
We can talk at 732-840-4203.
Final word from here.
I dug up "Focus On. #1, May 1985."
On page 3, "In 1981, the Bundestag decided to grant a further amount up tp DM100 Million for payments to non-Jewish victims of the nazi regime in casers similar to the ones mentioned above".
OK, that's 1/10th of a billion, right?
On page 5, III, Total (in round figures) 85.840 BILLION.
That is under "Public expentitures in restitution for Nazi damages (As of 1 Jan 1984).
So, realistically, just how many non-Jews were involved in this? Perhaps
1/858th of the total? .017% of 4,393,365 claiments= 7,574
That leaves 4,385, 791 jews.
Keep in mind, that figure represents only HEADS OF HOUSEHOLDS!
No figures available for numbers in households.
On page 3, "In 1981, the Bundestag decided to grant a further amount up tp DM100 Million for payments to non-Jewish victims of the nazi regime in casers similar to the ones mentioned above".
OK, that's 1/10th of a billion, right?
On page 5, III, Total (in round figures) 85.840 BILLION.
That is under "Public expentitures in restitution for Nazi damages (As of 1 Jan 1984).
So, realistically, just how many non-Jews were involved in this? Perhaps
1/858th of the total? .017% of 4,393,365 claiments= 7,574
That leaves 4,385, 791 jews.
Keep in mind, that figure represents only HEADS OF HOUSEHOLDS!
No figures available for numbers in households.
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