Inbound train records, but no outbound records. Why?

[Zulu]

Zulu said:

I believe that the Jews and others who died at Auschwitz are listed on the official death books (Sterbebücher).

There are only two small problems with these books:
a) They refer only to registered prisoners, i.e. to the minority of the arrivals who had been taken in and had received a prisoner number.
b) The extant books cover only a small period of the camp's existence.
It is, therefore, impossible to draw from them conclusions about the number of people who died or did not die at Auschwitz. Sorry, but that's logic 101.

From Jürgen Graf, Hungarian Holocaust Debate: Otto Perge vs. Dr. Laszlo Karsai
http://juergen-graf.vho.org/articles/hu ... ebate.html
http://juergen-graf.vho.org/pdf/graf-hu ... debate.pdf

Argument 13

“What happened to the Jews if they were not gassed? After the war, most Eastern European Jews were gone.”
Answer

There are only two detailed studies about Jewish population losses during World War II. In 1983 the revisionist Walter Sanning wrote The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry,[75] in which he came to the conclusion that the number of Jewish victims amounted to about 300,000. Eight years later Walter Benz edited an anthology entitled Dimension des Völkermords;[76] according to his statistics, between 5.29 and 6.01 million Jews perished as a result of National Socialist persecution.

Sanning’s book is far from perfect. He ignores a vital German wartime document, the Korherr report,[77] and puts too much trust in the statements of a Soviet Jewish propagandist, David Bergelson, who had claimed that 80% of the Jews in the Soviet territories later conquered by the Germans had been evacuated and thus “saved.” The real number of the evacuees was most probably much lower. Sanning’s own figure of 300,000 Jewish victims is certainly too low. Such obvious shortcomings notwithstanding, Sanning’s book is still the most serious one about the question, whereas the Benz book is utterly fraudulent.

In an article comparing Sanning and Benz,[78] Germar Rudolf has demonstrated the methods used by the swindler Benz and his team to corroborate the official “holocaust” statistics:

– For Benz and his team, every Jew who died during World War II was a “holocaust victim.” So if a Jewish soldier of the Red Army was killed in combat, or if a Jew evacuated to Siberia before the arrival of the German troops died from cold or starvation, he was a victim of National Socialist racism!

– As everybody knows, numerous territories in Eastern Europe changed their owners during World War II. In most cases, Benz and his team count Jews who (really or allegedly) perished in these territories twice, as citizens of state A and as citizens of state B! Thanks to this cheap trick, Benz gains over 500,000 “exterminated Jews.”

– Benz virtually ignores the vast post-war Jewish emigration to Palestine, the U.S., and numerous other countries (unlike Sanning, who treats this fundamental question in great detail).

– The fact that most Jews had vanished from Eastern Europe after the war was not only due to war, persecution, and emigration. Many Polish, Soviet, etc., Jews disappeared in the statistics. The years after World War Two saw a rapid acceleration of Jewish assimilation. In the USSR, every citizen could himself chose what nationality he wanted to belong to, so in the postwar population census many Jews, who did not feel any emotional ties to the creed of their ancestors, simply called themselves “Russians,” “Ukrainians” etc. As we see, very much depends on the definition of the word “Jew.”

For this simple reason, official population statistics cannot help us to ascertain the real magnitude of Jewish losses. A more rational method consists in calculating how many Jews perished as a result of concrete acts of persecution. As far as the Jews who died in the NS concentration camps are concerned, their number can be established with a certain amount of accuracy, because the German documents about the camps have largely survived. The figure is approximately 340,000.[79]

On the other hand, it is impossible to determine how many Jews were shot on the Eastern front. In order to prove a gigantic slaughter allegedly committed by the German troops, especially the so-called “Einsatzgruppen” whose primary task was the struggle against partisans, mainstream “holocaust” historians regularly quote the Einsatzgruppen reports, which were found in the Reichskanzlei in 1945 (why did the Germans not destroy these incriminating documents???), but the reports are highly suspect for two reasons:

– Their contents are not confirmed by forensic evidence.

– They contain obvious anomalies and are contradicted by other documents.

One example will suffice to illustrate the second point. According to a report from Einsatzgruppe A from February 1942, there had been 153,743 Jews in Lithuania before the outbreak of the German-Soviet war. 136,421 had been liquidated since, and 34,500 were still living in ghettos.[80] A simple addition shows that something is wrong here. But this is not the only inexplicable thing. If the Germans allowed a fraction of the Lithuanian Jews to survive, this could only be due to the fact that they wanted to use them as cheap labor, so one would expect that only able-bodied Jews were spared. However, in late May 1942 14,545 Jews lived in the ghetto of Vilnius, 3,693 of whom were children under 16. There were also many old people among them; the oldest one, a woman, had been born in 1852.[81] In view of these facts, every self-respecting historian will treat the Einsatzgruppen reports with utter caution.

Dr. Karsai’s last two arguments have nothing to do with the alleged extermination of the Jews, but we will answer them all the same.

*****

Part II: My response to Dr. L. Karsai’s article “Answer to a Hungarist and to Jürgen Graf, ‘historian’ from Moscow”

Argument 13

In order to explain the fact that the death books of Auschwitz contain “few names” (as a matter of fact, there were 80 death books,151 of which 46 were handed over to the Red Cross by the Soviets in 1990; these 46 books contain 68,571 names152), Dr. Karsai makes the fol-lowing claim:
“The death-lists of the Auschwitz camps contain indeed few names, but only because they only contain the names of the registered detainees who either died or were murdered in the camp. The deportees considered unfit to work were gassed upon arrival without previous registration. This is confirmed by several reports from SS officers to Himmler, one of them being the Franke-Griksch report.”

Answer:

As Otto Perge mentioned in his question 4 to Dr. Karsai (which Hungary’s leading holo-caust scholars has not bothered to answer), the death books of Auschwitz categorically refute the assertion that at Auschwitz Jews unfit to work were gassed upon arrival without previous registration. The 46 death books which have been made public (the remaining 34, which also cover the year 1944, are still being kept secret) contain the names of 2,584 Jews from 0 to 10 years of age, 2,083 Jews from 60 to 70 years of age, 482 Jews of 70 to 80 years of age, 73 Jews of 80 to 90 years of age and 2 Jews of over 90 years of age. Since the death books were made accessible to the public already in 1995, there is simply no excuse for Dr. Karsai for not knowing these exceedingly important documents.
Dr. Karsai expects us to believe that “several reports from SS officers to Himmler” prove that Jews unfit to work were gassed upon arrival, but mentions only one such report, the so-called “Franke-Griksch resettlement report.” This document, allegedly written by SS-Sturmbannführer Alfred Franke-Griksch in May 1943 after a visit at Auschwitz-Birkenau, where he witnessed the killing of Jews by means of gas, was first published by the Jew Gerald Fleming in his book Hitler und die Endlösung.153 As Brian Renk154 and Carlo Mattogno155 have demonstrated, this “report” is a crude forgery. I put “report” in quotation marks, because the only extant copy of it is actually a text typed by the U.S. Army employee Eric M Lippmann who merely claims that he has re-typed a paper by Franke-Griksch. This text be-gins with a blatant anachronism:
“The Jews arrive in special trains (freight cars) towards evening and are taken by a special rail track into an area of the camp specifically set aside for this purpose.”
This can only refer to a rail spur from the main Auschwitz (Vienna-Cracow) rail line into the Birkenau camp. In fact, work on this rail spur commenced as late as in January 1944,156 so Franke-Griksch cannot have described it in May 1943. While Dr. Karsai can be excused for not knowing this, the report contains a lot of preposterous nonsense which Dr. Karsai cannot possibly have failed to notice: that the Jews used to hide jewels in their teeth; that 10,000 Jews were being killed every day, etc. But in his desperate search for evidence for the gas chambers, Hungary’s leading holocaust scholar would presumably have accepted the Franke-Griksch report as authentic even if it had been written in the Zulu language.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________.
151 Gosudarstvenny Arkhiv Rossiskoj Federatsii, Moscow, 7021-149-189, p. 36, 40.
152 Staatliches Museum Auschwitz-Birkenau (ed), Die Sterbebücher von Auschwitz, Saur Verlag, Munich 1995.
153 Gerald Fleming, Hitler und die Endlösung, Limes Verlag, Wiesbaden 1982, p. 155-157.
154 Brian A. Renk, “The Franke-Griksch ‘Resettlement Report.’ Anatomy of a Fabrication,” in: Journal of Historical Review vol. 11, no. 3 (1991), pp. 261-279.
155 Carlo Mattogno, Le camere a gas di Auschwitz, effepi, Genova 2009, p. 205f.
156 Martin Gilbert, Auschwitz and the Allies, 1981, p. 34, 175.

[Zulu]

Zulu said

So, if I say that 50,000 died on 911, because we know there were usually working there, what would you say?

Well, if none of them shows up the next morning i would at least wonder where they gone. If none of those 50.000 did come home that night, i would say yes, they maybe dead or ask the question where are they?

Right, and how did they check it?
A tip: as there are no "outbounds", the only way to know about their fate was taking ONE by ONE, the names of people usually working at the WTC and check where they could have been gone. It was a hard job but it has been facilitated by their known addresses, supposed to be still valid, and asking known relatives That was not a wartime and it was rapidly made in order to establish the final counting of "really" deaths.

Now, to return to the people that supposedly "disappeared" after entering the Auschwitz facilities, how could we make it if the "outbounds" are not available for the moment?
It is always possible to do as I already told: you: take ONE by ONE of the names of the lists of "disappeared" and track them at the ITS. Did exterminationists try this? Why not?
Have you ONE name (with birth date, birth place, last place seen if possible) of those "disappeared" to give us?

[Zulu]

Zulu said:

I believe that the Jews and others who died at Auschwitz are listed on the official death books (Sterbebücher).

There are only two small problems with these books:
a) They refer only to registered prisoners, i.e. to the minority of the arrivals who had been taken in and had received a prisoner number.
b) The extant books cover only a small period of the camp's existence.
It is, therefore, impossible to draw from them conclusions about the number of people who died or did not die at Auschwitz. Sorry, but that's logic 101.

From Jürgen Graf, Hungarian Holocaust Debate: Otto Perge vs. Dr. Laszlo Karsai
http://juergen-graf.vho.org/articles/hu ... ebate.html
http://juergen-graf.vho.org/pdf/graf-hu ... debate.pdf

Argument 13

“What happened to the Jews if they were not gassed? After the war, most Eastern European Jews were gone.”

Answer

There are only two detailed studies about Jewish population losses during World War II. In 1983 the revisionist Walter Sanning wrote The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry,[75] in which he came to the conclusion that the number of Jewish victims amounted to about 300,000. Eight years later Walter Benz edited an anthology entitled Dimension des Völkermords;[76] according to his statistics, between 5.29 and 6.01 million Jews perished as a result of National Socialist persecution.

Sanning’s book is far from perfect. He ignores a vital German wartime document, the Korherr report,[77] and puts too much trust in the statements of a Soviet Jewish propagandist, David Bergelson, who had claimed that 80% of the Jews in the Soviet territories later conquered by the Germans had been evacuated and thus “saved.” The real number of the evacuees was most probably much lower. Sanning’s own figure of 300,000 Jewish victims is certainly too low. Such obvious shortcomings notwithstanding, Sanning’s book is still the most serious one about the question, whereas the Benz book is utterly fraudulent.

In an article comparing Sanning and Benz,[78] Germar Rudolf has demonstrated the methods used by the swindler Benz and his team to corroborate the official “holocaust” statistics:

– For Benz and his team, every Jew who died during World War II was a “holocaust victim.” So if a Jewish soldier of the Red Army was killed in combat, or if a Jew evacuated to Siberia before the arrival of the German troops died from cold or starvation, he was a victim of National Socialist racism!

– As everybody knows, numerous territories in Eastern Europe changed their owners during World War II. In most cases, Benz and his team count Jews who (really or allegedly) perished in these territories twice, as citizens of state A and as citizens of state B! Thanks to this cheap trick, Benz gains over 500,000 “exterminated Jews.”

– Benz virtually ignores the vast post-war Jewish emigration to Palestine, the U.S., and numerous other countries (unlike Sanning, who treats this fundamental question in great detail).

– The fact that most Jews had vanished from Eastern Europe after the war was not only due to war, persecution, and emigration. Many Polish, Soviet, etc., Jews disappeared in the statistics. The years after World War Two saw a rapid acceleration of Jewish assimilation. In the USSR, every citizen could himself chose what nationality he wanted to belong to, so in the postwar population census many Jews, who did not feel any emotional ties to the creed of their ancestors, simply called themselves “Russians,” “Ukrainians” etc. As we see, very much depends on the definition of the word “Jew.”

For this simple reason, official population statistics cannot help us to ascertain the real magnitude of Jewish losses. A more rational method consists in calculating how many Jews perished as a result of concrete acts of persecution. As far as the Jews who died in the NS concentration camps are concerned, their number can be established with a certain amount of accuracy, because the German documents about the camps have largely survived. The figure is approximately 340,000.[79]

On the other hand, it is impossible to determine how many Jews were shot on the Eastern front. In order to prove a gigantic slaughter allegedly committed by the German troops, especially the so-called “Einsatzgruppen” whose primary task was the struggle against partisans, mainstream “holocaust” historians regularly quote the Einsatzgruppen reports, which were found in the Reichskanzlei in 1945 (why did the Germans not destroy these incriminating documents???), but the reports are highly suspect for two reasons:

– Their contents are not confirmed by forensic evidence.

– They contain obvious anomalies and are contradicted by other documents.

One example will suffice to illustrate the second point. According to a report from Einsatzgruppe A from February 1942, there had been 153,743 Jews in Lithuania before the outbreak of the German-Soviet war. 136,421 had been liquidated since, and 34,500 were still living in ghettos.[80] A simple addition shows that something is wrong here. But this is not the only inexplicable thing. If the Germans allowed a fraction of the Lithuanian Jews to survive, this could only be due to the fact that they wanted to use them as cheap labor, so one would expect that only able-bodied Jews were spared. However, in late May 1942 14,545 Jews lived in the ghetto of Vilnius, 3,693 of whom were children under 16. There were also many old people among them; the oldest one, a woman, had been born in 1852.[81] In view of these facts, every self-respecting historian will treat the Einsatzgruppen reports with utter caution.

Dr. Karsai’s last two arguments have nothing to do with the alleged extermination of the Jews, but we will answer them all the same.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
75 Walter Sanning, The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry, IHR. New Port Beach 1983.
76 Wolfgang Benz (ed.) Dimension des Völkermords, Verlag Oldenbourg, Munich 1991.
77 Nuremberg document N0-5194.
78 Germar Rudolf, “Statistisches über die Holocaust-Opfer,” in: Ernst Gauss (Hg.), Grundlagen zur Zeitgeschichte, Grabert Verlag, Tübingen 1983.
79 Jürgen Graf, “National Socialist Concentration Camps. Legends and Reality,” in: Germar Rudolf (ed.), Dissecting the Holocaust, Theses and Dissertation Press, Chicago 2003.
80 Einsatzgruppe A. Tätigkeitsbericht für den Zeitraum vom 16. Oktober 1941 bis zum 31. Januar 1942. Rossiskij Gosu-darstvenny Vojenny Arkhiv, 500-4-92, p. 57 f.
81 Vilnius Ghetto: List of prisoners, Volume 1, Vilnius 1996.
*****

Part II: My response to Dr. L. Karsai’s article “Answer to a Hungarist and to Jürgen Graf, ‘historian’ from Moscow”

.../

Argument 13

In order to explain the fact that the death books of Auschwitz contain “few names” (as a matter of fact, there were 80 death books,151 of which 46 were handed over to the Red Cross by the Soviets in 1990; these 46 books contain 68,571 names152), Dr. Karsai makes the fol-lowing claim:
“The death-lists of the Auschwitz camps contain indeed few names, but only because they only contain the names of the registered detainees who either died or were murdered in the camp. The deportees considered unfit to work were gassed upon arrival without previous registration. This is confirmed by several reports from SS officers to Himmler, one of them being the Franke-Griksch report.”

Answer:

As Otto Perge mentioned in his question 4 to Dr. Karsai (which Hungary’s leading holo-caust scholars has not bothered to answer), the death books of Auschwitz categorically refute the assertion that at Auschwitz Jews unfit to work were gassed upon arrival without previous registration. The 46 death books which have been made public (the remaining 34, which also cover the year 1944, are still being kept secret) contain the names of 2,584 Jews from 0 to 10 years of age, 2,083 Jews from 60 to 70 years of age, 482 Jews of 70 to 80 years of age, 73 Jews of 80 to 90 years of age and 2 Jews of over 90 years of age. Since the death books were made accessible to the public already in 1995, there is simply no excuse for Dr. Karsai for not knowing these exceedingly important documents.
Dr. Karsai expects us to believe that “several reports from SS officers to Himmler” prove that Jews unfit to work were gassed upon arrival, but mentions only one such report, the so-called “Franke-Griksch resettlement report.” This document, allegedly written by SS-Sturmbannführer Alfred Franke-Griksch in May 1943 after a visit at Auschwitz-Birkenau, where he witnessed the killing of Jews by means of gas, was first published by the Jew Gerald Fleming in his book Hitler und die Endlösung.153 As Brian Renk154 and Carlo Mattogno155 have demonstrated, this “report” is a crude forgery. I put “report” in quotation marks, because the only extant copy of it is actually a text typed by the U.S. Army employee Eric M Lippmann who merely claims that he has re-typed a paper by Franke-Griksch. This text be-gins with a blatant anachronism:
“The Jews arrive in special trains (freight cars) towards evening and are taken by a special rail track into an area of the camp specifically set aside for this purpose.”
This can only refer to a rail spur from the main Auschwitz (Vienna-Cracow) rail line into the Birkenau camp. In fact, work on this rail spur commenced as late as in January 1944,156 so Franke-Griksch cannot have described it in May 1943. While Dr. Karsai can be excused for not knowing this, the report contains a lot of preposterous nonsense which Dr. Karsai cannot possibly have failed to notice: that the Jews used to hide jewels in their teeth; that 10,000 Jews were being killed every day, etc. But in his desperate search for evidence for the gas chambers, Hungary’s leading holocaust scholar would presumably have accepted the Franke-Griksch report as authentic even if it had been written in the Zulu language.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________.
151 Gosudarstvenny Arkhiv Rossiskoj Federatsii, Moscow, 7021-149-189, p. 36, 40.
152 Staatliches Museum Auschwitz-Birkenau (ed), Die Sterbebücher von Auschwitz, Saur Verlag, Munich 1995.
153 Gerald Fleming, Hitler und die Endlösung, Limes Verlag, Wiesbaden 1982, p. 155-157.
154 Brian A. Renk, “The Franke-Griksch ‘Resettlement Report.’ Anatomy of a Fabrication,” in: Journal of Historical Review vol. 11, no. 3 (1991), pp. 261-279.
155 Carlo Mattogno, Le camere a gas di Auschwitz, effepi, Genova 2009, p. 205f.
156 Martin Gilbert, Auschwitz and the Allies, 1981, p. 34, 175.

[Hannover]

I saw this from J. Kelly at:
http://codohfounder.com/treblinka/

Well then, I imagine all of this would be easy to prove.
Where are all of the transport schedules from Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor and Chelmno?
Obviously based upon the Hoefle Telegram we have a destination:
The above camps (except Chelmno).
Now, what we need is transportation from those camps to some destination. Where?
If someone has an ideas I might start to believe that there is something to Holocaust denial.

I have responded, still awaiting approval,:

The lack of outbound records is a point I have made numerous times at The CODOH Forum. Search outbound records there to see.

Every rail system in history kept / keeps inbound and outbound records, especially during war where keeping track of everything is vital, required.
The fact that the outbound records from the sites are missing is actually damning to the '6M' nonsense.
Obviously the records have been destroyed or are hidden away by the usual enemies of free inquiry.

Why would the Germans keep their inbound records, but hide their outbound records? To incriminate themselves? Makes no sense.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.

[onetruth]

~

The lack of any outbound train records corresponds with the lack of evidence of any major resettlement in the " east " . We are talking about over a million people that revisionist claim to have been resettled. If this was so there should have been much evidence to support that claim - after all such an amount of people would have formed settlements , towns , a city ?

But So far no such evidence was provided by revisionists. So the transit camp theory does not hold any water. Though i have heard evidence of people being transferred from camps - it was always to another camp. I have never heard evidence of anyone who was transferred from a camp and was simply released. Non.

~

[Dresden]

onetruth said:

"The lack of any outbound train records corresponds with the lack of evidence of any major resettlement in the " east " "

No, it doesn't.....it corresponds to a cover-up of the outbound train records.

Even if the outbound trains were empty, there would be outbound records.....WHERE ARE THEY?

"..... the transit camp theory does not hold any water"

Where are the mass graves?

[Hannover]

~

The lack of any outbound train records corresponds with the lack of evidence of any major resettlement in the " east " . We are talking about over a million people that revisionist claim to have been resettled. If this was so there should have been much evidence to support that claim - after all such an amount of people would have formed settlements , towns , a city ?

But So far no such evidence was provided by revisionists. So the transit camp theory does not hold any water. Though i have heard evidence of people being transferred from camps - it was always to another camp. I have never heard evidence of anyone who was transferred from a camp and was simply released. Non.
~

Apparently your have not read what has been posted in this thread and elsewhere at this forum. Curious, but typical of you and those like you.

Why would the Germans incriminate themselves by saving the inbound records while disposing of outbound records? They wouldn't.

Why would the Germans incriminate themselves by keeping inbound records while not keeping outbound records? They wouldn't. They couldn't. Especially in war time, keeping track of critical trains, personnel, and materials contained within them Is vital at any time, but even more so during WWII.

The Germans knew of the propaganda being spread about them, they certainly would not play into the hands of the propagandists by keeping the inbound records, but disposing of / not keeping outbound records. The idea is ludicrous, desperately so

As for the 'Where did they go?' canard, that has been answered rather well at this forum, but apparently you ignore the facts or haven't bothered to actually read some of the threads here. That's your problem.
And what is an enormous problem for you and those like you is the fact that you have absolutely zero proof that those deported 'to the east' and those send to labor camps were 'exterminated'.
It is you and those like you who make the claims, it is you and those like you who must provide the proof for those allegations.
So far ..... nada, zilch, zero.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.

[borjastick]

Onetruth, you also assume that all deportees were sent to one location which is clearly a silly notion. We have some fabulous evidence that many many many thousands of jews were sent into Treblinka and then out again. Evidence in their own words and on film, so that proves the trains were sent out of there with human cargo.

Then we know that there were many jews located into the east (Russia) I forget the illuminating thread here by a lad whose grand mother openly talked of being relocated many hundreds of miles into the Russian hinterland. That particular thread is well worth a read if someone can remember the title of it.

Finally after the greatest war europe has ever seen, with literally tens of millions of refugees and people moving after it and the fall of the Iron Curtain how would anyone be able to know and transmit such information about relocated jews sent into the bad world of Russia?

[onetruth]

Why would the Germans incriminate themselves by saving the inbound records while disposing of outbound records? They wouldn't.

Why would the Germans incriminate themselves by keeping inbound records while not keeping outbound records? They wouldn't. They couldn't. Especially in war time, keeping track of critical trains, personnel, and materials contained within them Is vital at any time, but even more so during WWII.

indeed why would the German incriminate themselves , had they had evidence of outbound train records they would have produced it. They the reason that they did not produce it in all those years is the most simple one - they simply don't exist. Same goes for all the other evidence that would discriminate them - like witnesses , documents etc . They don't produce them cause they do not exist.

But according to revisionists logic they do not exist because there is some mysterious conspirative plot to hide that caused the disappearance of all the witnesses , witnesses , records to support their claims.

May I ask who is behind this mass conspiracy ? And why indeed as you said the Germans agee incriminate themselves till this day ?

And what is an enormous problem for you and those like you is the fact that you have absolutely zero proof that those deported 'to the east' and those send to labor camps were 'exterminated'.
It is you and those like you who make the claims, it is you and those like you who must provide the proof for those allegations.
So far ..... nada, zilch, zero.

It is you who have Zero proof of anyone deported to the East. We are talking about over a million people . Can you sate the name of at least a dozen Jews that where arrested by the Germans put on trains and simply set free somewhere ? be it East , West or South ? No. you have Non. You want us to believe that the Germans bothered to arrest people as far away as in Thessaloniki in Greece and shipped them all the way to Poland only to set them free ? does not sound convincing - why would they rather have jews somewhere in the East rather than in Thessaloniki ?

But if you still want to claim that you need to prove that they where actually sent there and sent free. Sorry but to write as i saw you did : the Jews went where Jews go " does not constitute serious proof or evidence nor does it relive you from the burden of proof.

Had there in fact been mass transit to the East you would have thousands of witnesses to that , same as there are thousands of witnesses that where in the camps.

~

[onetruth]

Onetruth, you also assume that all deportees were sent to one location which is clearly a silly notion. We have some fabulous evidence that many many many thousands of jews were sent into Treblinka and then out again. Evidence in their own words and on film, so that proves the trains were sent out of there with human cargo.

Then we know that there were many jews located into the east (Russia) I forget the illuminating thread here by a lad whose grand mother openly talked of being relocated many hundreds of miles into the Russian hinterland. That particular thread is well worth a read if someone can remember the title of it.

Finally after the greatest war europe has ever seen, with literally tens of millions of refugees and people moving after it and the fall of the Iron Curtain how would anyone be able to know and transmit such information about relocated jews sent into the bad world of Russia?

borjastick

Whether they where sent to one location or many there would still be evidence for it same as there is evidence of those sent to treblinka. If you have Evidence that the Germans arrested people shipped them all across europe only to set them free kindly bring it. Iron Curtain , millions of refugees did not stop testimonies of the thousands of testimonies of camp survivors. If your Transit camps story was correct you would have thousand of testimonies of Jews that where arrested and set free by the Germans . If you don't it is because they aren't any. The story that there where millions of refugees , Iron curtain etc are just excuses for failing to produce such testimonies.

[Hannover]

Here we go again, onetruth in denial of the facts, onetruth dodges the numerous threads at this forum.

I repeat what onetruth ignored:

If the Germans had the outbound records and 'threw them away' or never kept them at all, then why would they allow the inbound records to be found? If the claims were true they would have tossed out the inbound records, they didn't.

Can anyone seriously believe that a country such as Germany who was involved in the biggest war the world had ever seen involving the most massive uses of transportation infrastructure ever witnessed would not keep complete records of it's main mode of critical transport, trains? Any such assumption is laughable.
I can just hear the Germans now:
'Sir, our troops are eagerly awaiting shipment of needed food, medicine, armaments, more troops, shipment of wounded troops, etc. Do we know when the trains will be loaded and sent?'
reply:
'No, I'm afraid we have no clue where our trains are.'

onetruth, the expression that suits you is, 'when in a hole, stop digging'.

And then onetruth falls back on the thread bare "conspiracy" canard while he supports the most absurd & impossible conspiracy ever contrived. That being the alleged German conspiracy to supposedly 'kill every Jew they could get their hands on', even though there are countless laughable "survivors" who would not exist at all if the 'holocau$t' storyline was factual. In fact, point after point of the alleged '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers' have been utterly demolished at this forum.

Please search our beloved onetruth using our search function here and see the spanking he takes, it's not even close.

His 'where did they go' is a big yawner covered repeatedly here. But like I say, he puts his head in the sand and dodges the threads where his pigs won't fly.

We note that onetruth and those like him are unable to show us excavated, verified with contents shown mass graves that are alleged and supposedly known, not even one.
These mass graves are said to be enormous, such as 900,000 Jews buried at Treblinka, 34,000 Jews buried at Babi Yar. They cannot be shown because they do not exist. No mass graves as alleged no 'holocaust' as alleged. Basic stuff.

And .... one truth cannot explain to us how the laughable & impossible 'gas chambers' supposedly worked.

Anyway, this forum is full of points which demolish what he and those like him fantasize about.

We must ask onetruth 'Why do you and those like you want '6M Jews & 5M others' dead? We don't.

onetruth asks:

You want us to believe that the Germans bothered to arrest people as far away as in Thessaloniki in Greece and shipped them all the way to Poland only to set them free ? does not sound convincing - why would they rather have jews somewhere in the East rather than in Thessaloniki ?

Yes, the Germans wanted Jews out of Europe, no one argues against that fact. Sending some of the Jews east removed them from the European heartland. I suggest you consult a map. Of course your view that the Germans 'exterminated' them is easily refuted, please pay attention.

See the 'holocau$t' demolishing Schlegelberger Document:

"Mr Reich Minister Lammers informed me that the Führer had repeatedly declared to him that he wants to hear that the Solution of the Jewish Problem has been postponed until after the war is over. That being so, the current discussions are of purely theoretical value, in Mr Reich Minister Lammers' opinion. He will moreover take pains to ensure that, whatever else happens, no fundamental decisions are taken without his knowledge in consequence of a surprise briefing by any third party."

Document's origins. Schlegelberger's undated minute on Lammer's reference to Hitler's ruling is in German Federal Archives (BA) file R.22/52. It was sent to Staatssekretär Freisler and two other officials (bottom left). This document has been published in facsimile in David Irving's books Hitler's War, Goebbels. Mastermind of the Third Reich, and Nuremberg, the Last Battle. It was definitely dated March or April 1942. Lammers was in Berlin on April 26, 1942. See Scheel's report on a talk between Lammers and Meissner after the final Reichstag session that day (T175/139/7479 et seq.)

in support of the Schlegelberger Document see the Luther Memorandum:
http://www.codoh.com/library/document/154/
'Hitler, the 'Final Solution,' and the Luther Memorandum
A Response to Evans and Longerich'
excerpt:

"On the occasion of a reception by the Reich Foreign Minister on 26 November 1941 the Bulgarian Foreign Minister Popoff touched on the problem of according like treatment to the Jews of European nationalities and pointed out the difficulties that the Bulgarians had in the application of their Jewish laws to Jews of foreign nationality."
"The Reich Foreign Minister answered that he thought this question brought by Mr. Popoff not uninteresting. Even now he could say one thing to him, that at the end of the war all Jews would have to leave Europe. This was the unalterable decision of the Fuehrer and also the only way to master this problem, as only a global and comprehensive solution could be applied and individual measures would not help very much."

See below for more on onetruth's impossible religion with statements by Jews which debunk the impossible 'extermination' fantasy:

J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8272

WJC's Stephen Wise said 1,250,000 - 1,500,000 Polish Jews homeless in Europe, outside of Poland, & alive after WWII
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10191

J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8272

Concentration Camp Vital Statistics
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7581

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”.
- Arthur Schopenhauer

Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.

[borjastick]

Onetruth has just proved that you can drown in an inch of water...

[hermod]

The lack of any outbound train records corresponds with the lack of evidence of any major resettlement in the " east " . We are talking about over a million people that revisionist claim to have been resettled. If this was so there should have been much evidence to support that claim - after all such an amount of people would have formed settlements , towns , a city ?

But So far no such evidence was provided by revisionists. So the transit camp theory does not hold any water. Though i have heard evidence of people being transferred from camps - it was always to another camp. I have never heard evidence of anyone who was transferred from a camp and was simply released. Non.

Why would the Germans have released the Jews transferred to Far Eastern Europe? To strenghten the aid to the Partisans in their warfare against Germany? Makes no sense. Seems logical those Jews were transferred to guarded ghettos and camps until the end of the war. The word 'resettlement' doesn't imply release. One can resettle a group of people in a detention area, at least temporarily. The Madagascar Plan provided for nothing else but a mass resettlement in a large detention area on a permanent basis.

[Lamprecht]

This ties in with my thread:
Did the Germans destroy the Reinhardt train records? (Treblinka / Sobibor / Belzec)
viewtopic.php?t=12920

Hannover:

We know there are plenty of train transport records TO various camps, we have none which show trains LEAVING. Why is that?

Where are the inbound records at exactly? It is claimed that 1.5m+ went to T+B+S
We have the Hoefle telgram giving the figure of 1.2m "as of 31 December 1942" yet the camps were closed in late 1943. So I guess, the alleged death tolls are just the estimates of those who were sent there.

Are there any statistics on the total number of Jews transited to these camps based entirely on inbound records - not the compilation figures such as Korherr report and Hoefle telegram?

Hannover:

The lack of these outgoing train records is damning to the story.

Yes, and for a reason that was not brought up in this thread, but is actually quite obvious after you think about it for a moment:

- We know that the Germans described "Aktion Reinhardt" and "The Final Solution" in general as "evacuation" or "deportation" or "resettlement" in their documents

- For exterminationists, "Evacuation" and "resettlement" are interpreted as "code words" for extermination, gassing, etc

- This "code word" hypothesis insists the Germans had an active conspiracy to "cover up their crimes" by producing false statements in their official documents

- In the case of the AR camps, this thesis is contradicted by the Germans clearly not falsifying any outbound records showing massive trains full of Jews being "resettled" anywhere

- If we are to suspect that the Germans created loads of fake documents using "evacuation" or "resettlement" as code words, why wouldn't they make these fake outbound records to "hide the evidence"? They supposedly put all the effort in to dig up hundreds of thousands of corpses and burn them to "hide the evidence" of mass murder

Give one guy a typewriter and tell him to make the fake documents, they could have made loads of fake resettlement records in a day or two

[hermod]

The Believers are big on the 'where did they go' reply. This canard is used for transports to labor camps. The story says that new arrivals that went unregistered were immediately gassed. The lack of records of outbound trains, the Believer's claim, is proof of their gassing. Leaving aside for the moment the scientific impossibility of the gassings as alleged, their story just doesn't hold up.

points:
We know there are plenty of train transport records TO various camps, we have none which show trains LEAVING. Why is that?

- Didn't the trains go somewhere after their trips to the alleged 'death camps'?

- Does anyone really think the Germans didn't keep records of where their trains went, full or empty?

- Would the Germans deliberately destroy their records of outbound trains while not destroying the records of inbound trains?

- So where did they outbound transport records go?

The lack of these outgoing train records is damning to the story.

Hannover

One needs to know that those train records were highly centralized and that the whole paper trail was kept on site at the Reinhardt camps. That was demonstrated in July 1944, when a single Soviet bomb destroyed all the train records of Belzec. Knowing this, one realizes how easy it was for the Soviets to destroy the railway documents debunking their own anti-German atrocity propaganda about those camps, i.e. all the outbound train records of the Reinhardt camps.

Exterminationist/antirevisionist sources say :

the old railway station in Belzec. All transports with Jews deported to the death camp arrived at this station. Documentation about the transports, notably the transfer telegrams, was also kept in this building. In July 1944, two weeks before the Soviet army entered Belzec, the railway station was bombed by a single Soviet airplane. A German transport loaded with ammunition was standing in the station and was destroyed. Because of the exploding ammunition, all structures within a radius of about 250 m., including the building of railway station, were completely demolished. It was at this time that the original documentation about the transports was lost.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... cptgs.html

The railway documents were all destroyed on July 4 1944, when a lone Russian bomber dropped one solitary bomb over Belzec which just happened to hit an ammunition train standing in the station. The Belzec railway station was completely destroyed together with all the records.

http://www.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/belzec/bel002.html

Immediately after the war, the various commissions investigating the number of victims murdered in the death camps could only estimate the numbers, which were based on an average of 100 persons to each wagon. If, for example, we take the Kolomyja transport of September 10,1942, we know that 51 freight wagons were made available and that 8,205 victims were counted-off, with so many to a wagon an average of 165. The Bill of Lading says just this, which is corroborated by the security personnel who loaded and escorted the train from Kolomyja to Belzec. The original reports submitted by the escorting security personnel of the Kolomyja transport have survived for scrutiny Even so, apart from this written evidence, we have no other documentation from the railway authorities to verify or corroborate this. To add to the difficulties for any analysis, Belzec railway station was blown up and all records destroyed in July 1944, when a lone Soviet aircraft dropped a single bomb on an ammunition train parked in the railway sidings.

http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/belzec1/bel160.html

The destruction of the railway station may well be the reason why no railroad documentation of the transports to Belzec has apparently survived.

(The Belzec Death Camp: History, Biographies, Remembrance, p.205, by Chris Webb)