I replied on a forum to someone who claimed millions of Jews where murdered by ze 'evil nazis' that revisionists actually have a strong case and they back up there arguments with proof and than i asked if he could do the same, this is his proof: this is what he replied to me in a private message, now i am not the expert on the holocaust and i am asking your opinions about this so called 'proof' : thanks in advance
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Holocaust and proof Holocaust and proof
Sir I will not bore you with proof obtained from Jewish sources as you may claim it to be false. I will bore you with proof from German/Nazi sources...
(1) The minutes of the Wansee Meeting: Speak of 'the final solution'
(2)Himmlers speech at Poznan 1943(on youtube) 'We are exterminating the Jews'
(3) Speer's 1977 affidavit 'Hitler spoke coldly about exterminating the Jews'
(4) Rudolf Hoess (Auschwitz Commandant) biography 'We gassed 1 million Jews'
(5) Eichman at his trial: 'Wansee discussed murder, killing all the jews of Europe'
(6) Hitlers Political Testiment (P3) 'The Jews have met a similar fate (to German air raid victims) albeit by more humane means.
(7) SS General Karl Wolf (The World at War TV series) 'Himmler was watching Jews being shot by the Einsatzgruppen when brains splashed onto his coat.etc'
(8) Hans Frank (Govenor of occupied Poland) at Nuremburg 'I know my diary (which spoke of killing the Jews) has condemned me''
(9) Wansee minutes note '3.1 million Jews in Poland.' There were 10,000 in 1945. (why?)
(10) German photographs and film still in existence of mass shootings, bodies burning, burial pits.
(11) Krakow University Foresnsic Dept finding 'Cyanide' on the vast majority of samples from Gas Chamber/Krematoria in Auschwitz
(12) Millions of documents such as...
IG Fabern 'Gas Kellern' blue prints for Auschwitz
List of Jews Killed by Einsatzgruppen marked with 'Laid before the Fuhrer'
Lists showing 37,000 Jews were killed at Babi Yar (Kiev) by Einsatzgruppen 4a in 1941
Telegram from "T2" (Treblinka 2) outlining 800,000 deaths there.
(13) Dr Kramer's Diary (Auschwitz Doctor) spoke of 18 'Special Actions' against Jews from September-December 1942 and stated in court that 'Special Actions' meant gassing Jews.
I could go on but you get the idea. However the greatest proof is in the missing millions who left every major city in occupied europe, including Amsterdam, Paris (Drancy), Warsaw, Berlin, Krakow, Hamburg, Brussells, etc,etc. Where are they? Millions of people are gone....millions saw them go. Where are they?
I look forward to the deniers 'proof' because I've read much of what they claim and it is usually lies based on their current anti semitism or German guilt. It happened my friend and 99% of the deniers know it. They just let hate and twisted pride blind them.
RIP the innocent.
We will Remember!
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PS : i gave him the CODOH link and invited him to come here and try to defend his points on this board, i hope that is oke.
Believers : to proof or not to proof
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Without going in to detail (except for one very important point)my understanding and opinion of the points raised are as follows:
1.No mention in these minutes of genocide.Many references to expulsion/resettlement.
2.The German word translated as Extermination does not,even in a purely liguistic sense, mean genocide.
Quote from Germar Rudolf`s "Lectures n the holocaust" p336
"1. Rudolf Hess, Hitler’s deputy until 1941, remarked in a speech in Stockholm
on May 14, 1935(847):
“National Socialist legislation has intervened in a corrective manner
against [Jewish] foreign infiltration.
I say corrective, since [the fact that] Jewry is not, for example, being ruthlessly
exterminated in National Socialist Germany is proven by the fact
that, in Prussia alone, 33,500 Jews are active in industry and handicrafts,
98,900 in trade and transport – and is further proven by the fact that, with
a proportion of 1% of the population of Germany, 17.5% of all lawyers are
still Jewish, and, for example, in Berlin, almost 50% of all non-Aryan physicians
are still permitted to participate in the social security system.”
The word exterminate (ausrotten) obviously cannot have been meant in the
sense of murder in this connection, since in 1935 nobody had accused the
Third Reich of ruthlessly killing the Jews in whole or even in part.Many examples of the word being used in a non-genocidal context.Authenticity doubts about the transcripts and voice recording of the Posen speech."
3.Alfred Speer was a turn-coat.To save his life,he castigated his former comrades.He is known as the "good nazi" for his repudiation of the nazi leadership.
4.Laughable and obviously bogus claims made by Hoess(on purpose) regarding the alleged genocide.It`s documented that he was tortured.There are authenticity problems with his signed statements.
5.Many issues surrounding the credibility of Eichman`s testimony.He was kidnapped and taken to Israel.He did not receive a fair trial.
6.I did`nt know about this,but I doubt Hitler said it.
7.Same as Albert Speer.
8.Tortured and "tried" at the Nuremberg kangaroo court.No further comment necessary.
9.The wannsee "documents" have authenticity problems.Original documents not produced.
10.No one denies the shooting/burning/burying of communists/Partisans.This does not a genocide make.
11.Institution has a history of bias.Their previous study came to a contradictory conclusion,and a more exhaustive study done by Germar Rudolf contradicts their conclusions.
12."Millions" is an enormous exaggeration.I see only four cited examples of "documents" pertaining to allegations which have been thoroughly refuted.The person in question seems to believe that documents can`t be forged or misinterpreted?
See Tony Blair/George Bush`s WMD nonsense for a reality check.
13.Eye-witness testimony trumped by forensic evidence.Long history of eye-witnesses admitting to/being forced to admit to fraudulent testimony.
The best thing to do is research the claims yourself instead of just dumping this believer`s copy-and-paste assertions on our laps.I expect you could send him/her a detailed refutation running into many pages,and he would then give you the next 13 pre-prepared time-wasting exercises for you/us to deal with.
1.No mention in these minutes of genocide.Many references to expulsion/resettlement.
2.The German word translated as Extermination does not,even in a purely liguistic sense, mean genocide.
Quote from Germar Rudolf`s "Lectures n the holocaust" p336
"1. Rudolf Hess, Hitler’s deputy until 1941, remarked in a speech in Stockholm
on May 14, 1935(847):
“National Socialist legislation has intervened in a corrective manner
against [Jewish] foreign infiltration.
I say corrective, since [the fact that] Jewry is not, for example, being ruthlessly
exterminated in National Socialist Germany is proven by the fact
that, in Prussia alone, 33,500 Jews are active in industry and handicrafts,
98,900 in trade and transport – and is further proven by the fact that, with
a proportion of 1% of the population of Germany, 17.5% of all lawyers are
still Jewish, and, for example, in Berlin, almost 50% of all non-Aryan physicians
are still permitted to participate in the social security system.”
The word exterminate (ausrotten) obviously cannot have been meant in the
sense of murder in this connection, since in 1935 nobody had accused the
Third Reich of ruthlessly killing the Jews in whole or even in part.Many examples of the word being used in a non-genocidal context.Authenticity doubts about the transcripts and voice recording of the Posen speech."
3.Alfred Speer was a turn-coat.To save his life,he castigated his former comrades.He is known as the "good nazi" for his repudiation of the nazi leadership.
4.Laughable and obviously bogus claims made by Hoess(on purpose) regarding the alleged genocide.It`s documented that he was tortured.There are authenticity problems with his signed statements.
5.Many issues surrounding the credibility of Eichman`s testimony.He was kidnapped and taken to Israel.He did not receive a fair trial.
6.I did`nt know about this,but I doubt Hitler said it.
7.Same as Albert Speer.
8.Tortured and "tried" at the Nuremberg kangaroo court.No further comment necessary.
9.The wannsee "documents" have authenticity problems.Original documents not produced.
10.No one denies the shooting/burning/burying of communists/Partisans.This does not a genocide make.
11.Institution has a history of bias.Their previous study came to a contradictory conclusion,and a more exhaustive study done by Germar Rudolf contradicts their conclusions.
12."Millions" is an enormous exaggeration.I see only four cited examples of "documents" pertaining to allegations which have been thoroughly refuted.The person in question seems to believe that documents can`t be forged or misinterpreted?
See Tony Blair/George Bush`s WMD nonsense for a reality check.
13.Eye-witness testimony trumped by forensic evidence.Long history of eye-witnesses admitting to/being forced to admit to fraudulent testimony.
The best thing to do is research the claims yourself instead of just dumping this believer`s copy-and-paste assertions on our laps.I expect you could send him/her a detailed refutation running into many pages,and he would then give you the next 13 pre-prepared time-wasting exercises for you/us to deal with.
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Arsènelupin
- Member
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:21 pm
(6), for example : Hitler's testiment, typical forgery currently read or heard.
On april 1945, one day before he puts an end to his life, Hitler claims against Jews ( "Das Judentum"), alleging they are charged of "millions" of german civilians died because of starvation, or under bombs, during the war. He announces the "culprit" - according to him - will be punished... Hey, there's the rub : if Hitler had orded to kill millions of Jews, he woud'nt have said that, and on the contrary, have proclaimed the destruction of jews, just before to commit suicid.
On april 1945, one day before he puts an end to his life, Hitler claims against Jews ( "Das Judentum"), alleging they are charged of "millions" of german civilians died because of starvation, or under bombs, during the war. He announces the "culprit" - according to him - will be punished... Hey, there's the rub : if Hitler had orded to kill millions of Jews, he woud'nt have said that, and on the contrary, have proclaimed the destruction of jews, just before to commit suicid.
Hektor wrote:Prove they were torturedThesaint wrote:...
8.Tortured and "tried" at the Nuremberg kangaroo court.No further comment necessary.
....!
It`s eye-witness testimony,but from members of the American Judiciary which is also in the congressional records.I also believe that there was eye-witness testimony from doctors.
'getting the desired 'confession'....via torture'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1121
'Do we have evidence of torture to extract confessions?'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=974
themind wrote:Hektor wrote:Prove they were torturedThesaint wrote:...
8.Tortured and "tried" at the Nuremberg kangaroo court.No further comment necessary.
....
im going to say eyewitnesses
What would the American judges have to gain from lying on behalf of the German defendants,and what would they stand to lose for making such claims?
Contrast that with the benefits that accrued to the holocau$t "eye-witnesses" for giving us their warped imaginings.
The Allies, in their own documents, after their own independent investigation, stated that no gassings occurred:
Quote:
Circular Letter No. 31/48 Vienna,
1 Oct. 1948 10th dispatch
1. The Allied Commissions of Inquiry have so far established that no people were killed by poison gas in the following concentration camps: Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenbürg, Gross-Rosen, Mauthausen and its satellite camps, Natzweiler, Neuengamme, Niederhagen (Wewelsburg), Ravensbrück, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt.
In those cases, it has been possible to prove that confessions had been extracted by tortures and that testimonies were false.
This must be taken into account when conducting investigations and interrogations with respect to war crimes.
The result of this investigation should be brought to the cognizance of former concentration camp inmates who at the time of the hearings testified on the murder of people, especially Jews, with poison gas in those concentration camps. Should they insist on their statements, charges are to be brought against them for making false statements.
2. In the C.L. (Circular Letter) 15/48, item 1 is to be deleted.
The Head of the MPS Müller, Major" Certified true copy: Lachout, Second Lieutenant
Lachout testified (in a Canadian court case) that he had drafted this letter for Major Müller's signature and had watched him sign it. He had then had copies made in the office which he certified, signed and stamped. The letter was translated into three languages and confirmed by the controlling officer. Only then was it allowed to be issued. The letter was circulated to every military Kommando in the Russian zone to keep personnel aware of the state of investigations. No one was ever charged with making false statements because they withdrew their statements as soon as they heard about the letter.
Quote:
Circular Letter No. 31/48 Vienna,
1 Oct. 1948 10th dispatch
1. The Allied Commissions of Inquiry have so far established that no people were killed by poison gas in the following concentration camps: Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenbürg, Gross-Rosen, Mauthausen and its satellite camps, Natzweiler, Neuengamme, Niederhagen (Wewelsburg), Ravensbrück, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt.
In those cases, it has been possible to prove that confessions had been extracted by tortures and that testimonies were false.
This must be taken into account when conducting investigations and interrogations with respect to war crimes.
The result of this investigation should be brought to the cognizance of former concentration camp inmates who at the time of the hearings testified on the murder of people, especially Jews, with poison gas in those concentration camps. Should they insist on their statements, charges are to be brought against them for making false statements.
2. In the C.L. (Circular Letter) 15/48, item 1 is to be deleted.
The Head of the MPS Müller, Major" Certified true copy: Lachout, Second Lieutenant
Lachout testified (in a Canadian court case) that he had drafted this letter for Major Müller's signature and had watched him sign it. He had then had copies made in the office which he certified, signed and stamped. The letter was translated into three languages and confirmed by the controlling officer. Only then was it allowed to be issued. The letter was circulated to every military Kommando in the Russian zone to keep personnel aware of the state of investigations. No one was ever charged with making false statements because they withdrew their statements as soon as they heard about the letter.
Thesaint wrote:themind wrote:Hektor wrote:Prove they were torturedThesaint wrote:...
8.Tortured and "tried" at the Nuremberg kangaroo court.No further comment necessary.
....
im going to say eyewitnesses
What would the American judges have to gain from lying on behalf of the German defendants,and what would they stand to lose for making such claims?
Contrast that with the benefits that accrued to the holocau$t "eye-witnesses" for giving us their warped imaginings.
well if they didn't lie I think they would of lost their reputation as a judge, they could also find themselves in a car crash a short while latter
Every great movement must experience three stages: ridicule, discussion, adoption.
- John Stuart Mill
- John Stuart Mill
themind wrote:Thesaint wrote:themind wrote:Hektor wrote:Prove they were torturedThesaint wrote:...
8.Tortured and "tried" at the Nuremberg kangaroo court.No further comment necessary.
....
im going to say eyewitnesses
What would the American judges have to gain from lying on behalf of the German defendants,and what would they stand to lose for making such claims?
Contrast that with the benefits that accrued to the holocau$t "eye-witnesses" for giving us their warped imaginings.
well if they didn't lie I think they would of lost their reputation as a judge, they could also find themselves in a car crash a short while latter
Yes,the Jews have a lot of experience in making "accidents" happen don`t they?
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