Population Statistics/Demographics

[The Warden]

We're all very familiar with the claims of "6 million". There's really no way to prove 6 million missing without population demographics from before and after the war.
What I'm looking for in this thread is a collection of any and all Jewish population figures.

I know they're inaccurate and there are many different numbers from many different sources. I've yet to see pre-war and post-war figures from the same source, which would at least show some kind of consistent recording. I've also heard about the U.S. not offering a "Jewish" option on their Census reports pre-war. This is the kind of input I'm looking for.

Please don't get into the history of the magical 6 million number in the religious aspect.
For those of you interested in that history, please read and contribute here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5642&p=44684&hilit=drew+j+6+million#p44684


Just the sources and their data please, and if you have anything to offer as far as their collection of the data.

[Kingfisher]

Have you looked at Thomas Dalton's "Debating the Holocaust"? He has a section on this topic. If you don't want to buy the hard copy the Kindle download is not expensive and can be read on a PC.

[trevor]

There was no way how to count all Jews in Europe, neither in 1939 nor after the War.
Impossible to perform.
The number of Jews in individual countries were estimated; even today the number of Jews are estimates only:

"According to the estimates for 2007 of the Jewish People Policy Planning Institute, the world population of Jews is 13.2 million. Adherents.com cites figures ranging from 12 to 18 million Jews."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population

So the current estimates of Jews vary by millions!

The second problem is – who was considered a Jew?

Third problem - census records concerning race or religion are completely unreliable, especially after the WWII. Understandably, after the War, Jews would not fill out (out of fear after what they had experienced) in the census papers that they were Jews and that information is not compulsory to fill out in census papers, neither it is checked. Census is more or less reliable concerning the number of legal inhabitants of a country. That’s all.

Its like claiming that Saudi Arabia has a precise figure of how many gays are in the country because there was a question in the census paper about the sexual orientation.

If you merely take 1000 inhabitants and determine what percentage of them is Jewish and then you apply that percentage to the total number of inhabitants, the figure will be utterly unreliable. To do all European countries in this manner, you end up with a figure that might be several millions less or more than the reality is.

It is probably more precise to estimate the number of gays like that because gays are likely much more evenly spread in the population than Jews. Some regions have extremely many Jews and some not at all.

[trevor]

“However, there are few censuses that were taken specifically of Jews.”

“Some countries conducted censuses specifically of the Jewish population. Germany, for example, had a census of Jews in 1939. Microfilm copies of these census records are found at the Family History Library on 292 reels, 130 of which are for the city of Berlin."

Conscriptio Judaeorum, 1848 (Census of Jews, 1848). Budapest: Magyar Országos levéltárban történt, 1970. (FHL film 0719823–0719828, 0754368 item 2.) This census gives the name, age, and specific birthplace of all members of the household. The birthplace is particularly useful in tracing families that have moved from another area or country.”
https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Jewish_Census


It seems that no other country apart from Germany had SPECIFICALLY census of Jews in 20 century.

Ordinary census cannot reliably count the number of Jews because answering the question about race or religion is totally voluntary and nobody checks it.

[The Warden]

Excellent input, Trevor!
Thank you!

Here's an example of someone's latest attempt to prove to me 6 million were missing:



"Estimates" from a post-war (1948) Jewish organization called the American Jewish Committee.
"Estimates" from the American Jewish Yearbook (1947-1948).
"Estimates" from the Jewish Statistical Bureau of the Synagogue Council of America.



Here are some more population figures from http://fathersmanifesto.net/holocaust.htm

I don't know how anyone can use population figures as proof (one way or another), but one thing is clear... The Jewish version doesn't wash.

[trevor]

CONCERNING THE NUMBERS OF JEWS:

Wiki:

“It is estimated that inside the post-war borders of Hungary, 190,000 people of Jewish descent were living at the end of 1945."

(the table in Wiki shows 185 000 in March 1945 and 270 000 in December 1945)


“The last census that asked about religion was in 1949 until the renewal of this question in 2001, when 12,871 people claimed to be "Israelite" vs 133,861 in 1949”.


Does it mean that between 1949 and 2001, 120 990 Jews in Hungary were gassed?
The answer is yes, according to the “logic” of people who claim that 6 000 000 Jews were missing in post-war census or estimates or whatever and thus they must have been killed.
The estimated numbers of Jews pre war and post war in Europe are totally unreliable and can vary by millions just like they vary by millions today.


“Today, most estimates about the number of Jews in Hungary range from 50,000 to 150,000.
On the other hand, only 12,871 people declared Jewish religion in the census of 2001”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_ ... te_note-16


Again it shows that the number of Jews in a country is impossible to establish by a census and estimates vary significantly.

And note that the census asked about religion, not about race!

Nuremberg laws- the second anti-Jewish law (May 5, 1939), for the first time, defined Jews racially: people with 2, 3 or 4 Jewish-born grandparents were declared Jewish.

A post war census that asked a question about -religion- cannot be compared to figures concerning race.

And as I said, filling out census papers concerning a question about religion or race is not compulsory and nobody checks it, so it is highly likely that lots of Jews did not fill out the religion question in a post-war census out of fear.

[HaaDeeCee]

As has been amply demonstrated above, population statistics of such a fluid population, fluid due to population movement, displacement, and definition, is not going to resolve the issue of the "number of gassings" or whatever.

In another thread on this forum I showed that a different approach to the number of gassings is to use the official survivor statistics as published by Poland in 1990, Israel in 2000, Germany in 2005, and the mortality rates for various European countries as published by the American Institute of Public Health in 1948. (All dates may vary by +/- a year or so as I am narrating from memory).

In that posting I showed, using the data by the above-cited references, that NOBODY could have been killed in the concentration camps because the calculation shows that in order to have the claimed number of survivors in 2000 or 2005, and using the highest mortality rates of the American health institute, more "survivors" were necessary in 1945 than the gassings claimed. Using a lower mortality rate from the published table would increase the number of requisite survivors in 1945.

The holocaustians have boxed themselves in neatly with their persistent numerical lies. Unfortunately the mass media still babble on about the "6 million Jews" when, using officially sanctioned data, that figure is now 3 million Jews.

Wikipedia shows that the Auschwitz figure, which for decades has been listed as 4 million Jews on numerous tablets, is now accepted as 1 million. According to Hoyle 6 million minus 3 million equals 3 million but, due to the "new math" training a few decades ago the current crop of the intelligentsia have great difficulty with this simple arithmetic and still claim 6 million.



I

[Petschau]

There is no real mystery.
Searching through population statistics will not provide the answer.
Focus your search on demographic shifts in Poland.
Keep in mind that the Germans pushed the Jews eastward and Jewish emigration into Soviet occupied territories was welcomed.
After the war...the eastern border of Poland was shifted westward to the Curzon line to appease Stalin and the western regions and border of Poland (now devoid of Jews) was shifted westward to include Pomerania and Silesia.
Germany also lost East Prussia.
The newly annexed Soviet satellites were obviously full of Jews, but due to the newly adapted Cold War policies of the East and West it was impossible to perform a census.
To find the missing Jews, search for population growth through the post-war towns and villages east of the Curzon line.

Here is a map showing the wartime division of Poland

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/images/Poland.jpg

Here is a map showing the post-war border shifts.

http://www.funfront.net/hist/europe/europe1945.gif

[The Warden]

All I'm looking to do here is have a collection of figures in one place to show how inaccurate they are so it can be referenced in the future.
I get tired of repeating myself elsewhere.

As far as "looking for the missing Jews", the whole point being I don't believe there's any way to actually prove they were ever there in the first place, especially using population figures.
It's all based on estimates which are based on inaccurate collection methods.

[Ray Barren]

As far as "looking for the missing Jews", the whole point being I don't believe there's any way to actually prove they were ever there in the first place, especially using population figures.
It's all based on estimates which are based on inaccurate collection methods.

A source that seems missing from your whole thread is Nazi estimates and work on the population of Jews in their territory during the world war. You say there werent enough Jews in Europe but the Nazis thought there were.

Here are some websites:
http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/korherr.html
http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Korherr/index.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... rherr.html

There were also estimate in Wannsee meeting minutes:

Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final
solution of the European Jewish question, distributed as follows
among the individual countries:

Country Number

A. Germany proper 131,800
Austria 43,700
Eastern territories 420,000
General Government 2,284,000
Bialystok 400,000
Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia 74,200
Estonia - free of Jews -
Latvia 3,500
Lithuania 34,000
Belgium 43,000
Denmark 5,600
France / occupied territory 165,000
unoccupied territory 700,000
Greece 69,600
Netherlands 160,800
Norway 1,300

B. Bulgaria 48,000
England 330,000
Finland 2,300
Ireland 4,000
Italy including Sardinia 58,000
Albania 200
Croatia 40,000
Portugal 3,000
Rumania including Bessarabia 342,000
Sweden 8,000
Switzerland 18,000
Serbia 10,000
Slovakia 88,000
Spain 6,000
Turkey (European portion) 55,500
Hungary 742,800
USSR 5,000,000
Ukraine 2,994,684
White Russia
excluding Bialystok 446,484


Total over 11,000,000


The number of Jews given here for foreign countries
includes, however, only those Jews who still adhere to the Jewish
faith, since some countries still do not have a definition of the
term "Jew" according to racial principles.

http://fcit.usf.edu/HOLOCAUST/timeline/docwann.htm

[Roscov]

As far as "looking for the missing Jews", the whole point being I don't believe there's any way to actually prove they were ever there in the first place, especially using population figures.
It's all based on estimates which are based on inaccurate collection methods.

A source that seems missing from your whole thread is Nazi estimates and work on the population of Jews in their territory during the world war. You say there werent enough Jews in Europe but the Nazis thought there were.

Here are some websites:
http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/korherr.html
http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Korherr/index.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... rherr.html

There were also estimate in Wannsee meeting minutes:

Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final
solution of the European Jewish question, distributed as follows
among the individual countries:

Country Number

A. Germany proper 131,800
Austria 43,700
Eastern territories 420,000
General Government 2,284,000
Bialystok 400,000
Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia 74,200
Estonia - free of Jews -
Latvia 3,500
Lithuania 34,000
Belgium 43,000
Denmark 5,600
France / occupied territory 165,000
unoccupied territory 700,000
Greece 69,600
Netherlands 160,800
Norway 1,300

B. Bulgaria 48,000
England 330,000
Finland 2,300
Ireland 4,000
Italy including Sardinia 58,000
Albania 200
Croatia 40,000
Portugal 3,000
Rumania including Bessarabia 342,000
Sweden 8,000
Switzerland 18,000
Serbia 10,000
Slovakia 88,000
Spain 6,000
Turkey (European portion) 55,500
Hungary 742,800
USSR 5,000,000
Ukraine 2,994,684
White Russia
excluding Bialystok 446,484


Total over 11,000,000


The number of Jews given here for foreign countries
includes, however, only those Jews who still adhere to the Jewish
faith, since some countries still do not have a definition of the
term "Jew" according to racial principles.

http://fcit.usf.edu/HOLOCAUST/timeline/docwann.htm

You might want to read this with regard to Wannsee http://www.codoh.com/found/fndwannsee.html. Being relatively new to this myself, alarm bells rang as to the validity of this 'Official US Government translation' viz:

The Chief of the Security Police and the SD then gave a
short report of the struggle which has been carried on thus far
against this enemy, the essential points being the following:

a) the expulsion of the Jews from every sphere of life of
the German people,

b) the expulsion of the Jews from the living space of the
German people.

As far as I am aware, many Jews were allowed to go about their business unmolested. Given that this is a 'teacher's guide', I would take it with a pinch of salt, as gas chambers are still the staple in Western schools, and numbers cannot be questioned or seen to be questionable.....over-inflation? Young minds are easy to manipulate, believe me, I know

[Kingfisher]

As far as "looking for the missing Jews", the whole point being I don't believe there's any way to actually prove they were ever there in the first place, especially using population figures.
It's all based on estimates which are based on inaccurate collection methods.

Dalton (Debating the Holocaust) agrees with you. He says that official figures show a rate of growth in the first years of the 20th C that is just not feasible, and that it is due to self-reporting by Jewish organisations wishing to show large numbers to support the Zionist cause.

I'll try to post something tomorrow, but I'm wary of something too long for copyright reasons and because it's in graphic format which I'm not used to posting.

[The Warden]

A source that seems missing from your whole thread is Nazi estimates and work on the population of Jews in their territory during the world war. You say there werent enough Jews in Europe but the Nazis thought there were.

Again, Ray Barren misses the point, but I thank him for his contribution of estimates. The issue of "Who is a Jew?" arises again. What I'd like to see are the sources that the Germans used to make these estimates, Ray Barren.

Without going too far off topic, I do find it amazing that with the German estimates of 11 million, they only planned their largest camp to house 200,000. I know you'll use that an an excuse to say "because they were planning on murdering them", but then we need to consider the amount of crematoria and muffles and their capability, which come nowhere near the 11 million figure. But those discussions are for other threads, right Ray Barren?

As far as "looking for the missing Jews", the whole point being I don't believe there's any way to actually prove they were ever there in the first place, especially using population figures.
It's all based on estimates which are based on inaccurate collection methods.

Dalton (Debating the Holocaust) agrees with you. He says that official figures show a rate of growth in the first years of the 20th C that is just not feasible, and that it is due to self-reporting by Jewish organisations wishing to show large numbers to support the Zionist cause.

I'll try to post something tomorrow, but I'm wary of something too long for copyright reasons and because it's in graphic format which I'm not used to posting.

I wasn't ignoring your comment, Kingfisher. I simply haven't read Dalton's work. The "Need To Read" pile is growing faster than I can keep up, but I thank you for referring me to it. I look forward to reading it if it's along the lines of the numbers being managed to fit the story.

If you get the chance, I'd like to see any numbers placed in here for future use.

[Kingfisher]

Warden (and anyone else interested):

The relevant pages from Dalton are in a ZIP file here: http://www.2shared.com/file/S6hBcSva/Dalton.html.

The password is "codoh".

[Balsamo]

A couple of facts that keep being forgotten
- Various national census did count the Jews on various criteria, mainly religious...could also be the main language (as in Poland)...Basically, the results will depend on the criteria used and the questions asked.
- The world Almanach is not a perfect science but a summary of all the national census available to them. Their wartime numbers means nothing as no new census were organized...the small variation could be due to data from census organized in let's say south america. They did not have access to the Kohrer report...nor did they ask Stalin if he could check the number of Jews between two offensives.

More important is that the Nazis did not have the same definition of a Jew than France or Poland. It was based on Race and included many people that would not have declared them jew in a census.

As a conclusion, demographical statistics are not exact science. They are subject to manipulation in some political context. Poland identified much more Jews in 31 (or 33?) than in 1921, maybe to explain and justify their "Jewish policy". That may explain the growth. Don't forget that Anti Semitism was strong since the end of the XIX century. In some Region, Russia, the Balkan, Romania, some could have chosen not to be counted as Jews in regard to the political situation.
Other can momentarely have dissapeared from statistics to reapper later. The mass emigration from Russia or Romania make those immigrants absent from census until they would be recounted in Argentina or Brasil...If i remember, Dalton does not look at this possibility. (I'll check it out). Census are not birth statistics.

The Warden said

Without going too far off topic, I do find it amazing that with the German estimates of 11 million, they only planned their largest camp to house 200,000. I know you'll use that an an excuse to say "because they were planning on murdering them", but then we need to consider the amount of crematoria and muffles and their capability, which come nowhere near the 11 million figure. But those discussions are for other threads, right Ray Barren?

200.000 is already a hell of a camp, don't you think ? But you should add all the Gethos. On the other hand, Jewish slave labour were dispatched in various industries according to the needs.
And you don't need camps to shoot them as Partisans neither.