How Babi Yar Casts Doubt on the Holocaust
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How Babi Yar Casts Doubt on the Holocaust
Here are 2 aerial photographs of the Babi Yar ravine on September 26, 1943:
First picture, ravine is on the top. Second picture, ravine is on the bottom.
These photos disprove the Babi Yar massacre. Previous criticisms of some Babi Yar aerial photos, that they don't show the whole ravine and that it was taken when the operation was done don't hold up. These pictures are clearly of the whole ravine. Vladimir Davydov claimed that by September 26, the operation was almost complete, so clearly the operation was not over yet. A fuller explanation of the relevant photos can be read in Mattogno's book on the Einsatzgruppen, pages 561-563.
These photos clearly do not show what we would expect to see if there was a massive cremation operation of the bodies going on. Therefore, these photos prove that the Babi Yar massacre didn't happen. Probably a few people were killed, but "a few people getting killed" is not what the Babi Yar massacre is.
This massacre is "corroborated" by an Einsatzgruppen report saying 33,771 were killed. Whatever explanation one may have for what the report says, exaggeration by German soldiers or manipulation of the content by the Allies, we can't take this report at face value as it is contradicted by photographic evidence. This would necessarily put doubt on all the Einsatzgruppen reports and how much we can trust the contents of what they say. I am not the first to make this argument. Jurgen Graf made this argument before me, but I just wanted to refine and add some things to it.
On top of this massacre casting doubt on the mainstream narrative of the Einsatzgruppen, it also casts doubt on the holocaust as a whole. After all, the Einsatzgruppen part of the holocaust is the "most documented" part of it. If the "most documented" part of the holocaust rests on a shaky foundation because of these photographs, then the rest necessarily is on even shakier ground.
First picture, ravine is on the top. Second picture, ravine is on the bottom.
These photos disprove the Babi Yar massacre. Previous criticisms of some Babi Yar aerial photos, that they don't show the whole ravine and that it was taken when the operation was done don't hold up. These pictures are clearly of the whole ravine. Vladimir Davydov claimed that by September 26, the operation was almost complete, so clearly the operation was not over yet. A fuller explanation of the relevant photos can be read in Mattogno's book on the Einsatzgruppen, pages 561-563.
These photos clearly do not show what we would expect to see if there was a massive cremation operation of the bodies going on. Therefore, these photos prove that the Babi Yar massacre didn't happen. Probably a few people were killed, but "a few people getting killed" is not what the Babi Yar massacre is.
This massacre is "corroborated" by an Einsatzgruppen report saying 33,771 were killed. Whatever explanation one may have for what the report says, exaggeration by German soldiers or manipulation of the content by the Allies, we can't take this report at face value as it is contradicted by photographic evidence. This would necessarily put doubt on all the Einsatzgruppen reports and how much we can trust the contents of what they say. I am not the first to make this argument. Jurgen Graf made this argument before me, but I just wanted to refine and add some things to it.
On top of this massacre casting doubt on the mainstream narrative of the Einsatzgruppen, it also casts doubt on the holocaust as a whole. After all, the Einsatzgruppen part of the holocaust is the "most documented" part of it. If the "most documented" part of the holocaust rests on a shaky foundation because of these photographs, then the rest necessarily is on even shakier ground.
Re: How Babi Yar Casts Doubt on the Holocaust
Having zero physical evidence, but having a report to confirm the massacre casts doubt on the reliability of documentary evidence during that era. It's indirectly also casting doubt on the Holocaust narrative altogether. But of course one fraudulent document doesn't prove that all of them are. It just should be a reason to scrutinize them more thoroughly, which Holocaustian Historiographers are still not doing. Any document they like is always accepted at face value. The issue of (potential) forgeries to frame the enemy isn't addressed at all. As if the Allies were objective investigators, when it came to 'war crimes allegations' against their enemies. They most definitely were not.
Re: How Babi Yar Casts Doubt on the Holocaust
According to USSR-9, the clean-up operation was conducted from 18 Aug 1943 - 29 Sep 1943, during which around 70,000 bodies were burned. This is according to witnesses who supposedly served on the clean-up squad. The Germans were going to kill all of them at the end but a few made a remarkable escape, thus allowing them to tell their story a couple of months later to the Extraordinary State Commission.
USSR-9 implies the Germans had to dispose of around 1,750 bodies per day during this operation. By September 26, most of the bodies would have been burned but you would still expect to see burning pyres to take care of the last few thousand.
USSR-9 implies the Germans had to dispose of around 1,750 bodies per day during this operation. By September 26, most of the bodies would have been burned but you would still expect to see burning pyres to take care of the last few thousand.
Re: How Babi Yar Casts Doubt on the Holocaust
Archie wrote:According to USSR-9, the clean-up operation was conducted from 18 Aug 1943 - 29 Sep 1943, during which around 70,000 bodies were burned. This is according to witnesses who supposedly served on the clean-up squad. The Germans were going to kill all of them at the end but a few made a remarkable escape, thus allowing them to tell their story a couple of months later to the Extraordinary State Commission.
USSR-9 implies the Germans had to dispose of around 1,750 bodies per day during this operation. By September 26, most of the bodies would have been burned but you would still expect to see burning pyres to take care of the last few thousand.
And as if that would have been so easy. Even if you'd overcome the logistics issues. You still would have at least two things:
1.) Disturbances in the soil somewhere.
2.) Still remains from corpses. Human Teeth as especially difficult to get rid of.
The whole story of "The Germans made all the mass graves vanish" is a show trial version of "Dog ate my homework".
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Re: How Babi Yar Casts Doubt on the Holocaust
I recently did a whole thing on Babi Yar on my site. I focused on what Holocaust Denial on Trial, hdot.org, said about the alleged massacre. They pretty much had to admit, not directly of course, that they have nothing but eyewitness testimony. They try to cope with the contradictions of said testimony by saying that the "survivors the accounts of Babi Yar actually corroborate each other in all major points". This, we know, is a lie. They don't even agree on how they were shot.
As far as the air photos their cope is that John Bell examined the wrong area. But they admit that "the photograph does not prove, one way or the other, the existence of the exhumation and burning operations in Babi Yar". So yet again they cede that there is no evidence.
https://www.holocaust.claims/einsatzgru ... -babi-yar/
As far as the air photos their cope is that John Bell examined the wrong area. But they admit that "the photograph does not prove, one way or the other, the existence of the exhumation and burning operations in Babi Yar". So yet again they cede that there is no evidence.
https://www.holocaust.claims/einsatzgru ... -babi-yar/
Re: How Babi Yar Casts Doubt on the Holocaust
fireofice wrote:These photos clearly do not show what we would expect to see if there was a massive cremation operation of the bodies going on. Therefore, these photos prove that the Babi Yar massacre didn't happen.
Man of little faith...
“Faith is to believe what you do not yet see; the reward for this faith is to see what you believe.”
- Saint Augustine
- Saint Augustine
"[Austen Chamberlain] has done western civilization a great service by refuting at least one of the slanders against the Germans
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed. "
Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed. "
Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925
- borjastick
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Re: How Babi Yar Casts Doubt on the Holocaust
HektorAnd as if that would have been so easy. Even if you'd overcome the logistics issues. You still would have at least two things:
1.) Disturbances in the soil somewhere.
2.) Still remains from corpses. Human Teeth as especially difficult to get rid of.
The whole story of "The Germans made all the mass graves vanish" is a show trial version of "Dog ate my homework".
Or the old classic after a car crash 'the tree jumped out in front of my car!'
As for the lack of remains one could argue that the lack thereof is a metaphor for the whole holocaust claims, such as 1- 4m deaded at Auschwitz but they burned all the bodies and got rid of all evidence by flushing it down the river and spreading it all on the nearby fields as fertilizer...
Yet as I have said before the service village that sprung up for the workers at Stonehenge all those thousands of years ago was excavated and showed fire pits, trash pits and all manner of other social and lifestyle history. But apparently something horrendous and hitherto never before seen and only 80 years ago leaves zero evidence because, you know, the German Method...
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'
'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician
'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician
Re: How Babi Yar Casts Doubt on the Holocaust
borjastick wrote:HektorAnd as if that would have been so easy. Even if you'd overcome the logistics issues. You still would have at least two things:
1.) Disturbances in the soil somewhere.
2.) Still remains from corpses. Human Teeth as especially difficult to get rid of.
The whole story of "The Germans made all the mass graves vanish" is a show trial version of "Dog ate my homework".
Or the old classic after a car crash 'the tree jumped out in front of my car!'
As for the lack of remains one could argue that the lack thereof is a metaphor for the whole holocaust claims, such as 1- 4m deaded at Auschwitz but they burned all the bodies and got rid of all evidence by flushing it down the river and spreading it all on the nearby fields as fertilizer...
Yet as I have said before the service village that sprung up for the workers at Stonehenge all those thousands of years ago was excavated and showed fire pits, trash pits and all manner of other social and lifestyle history. But apparently something horrendous and hitherto never before seen and only 80 years ago leaves zero evidence because, you know, the German Method...
It would still be OK, if they said:
* "We have the hypothesis that 6 million Jews were killed, most in concentration camps using homicidal gas chambers."
* Per admission:" We admit not having sufficient evidence for this."
But that's not what they are doing the peddle a narrative of mass extermination by gas chambers in accordance with a central plan by the NS-government and then expect everybody to believe them. Now that's rather obnoxious. It's however also a give-away that there narrative doesn't hold too much water.
- curioussoul
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Re: How Babi Yar Casts Doubt on the Holocaust
As Mattogno explains in his book, there is evidence that only a few hundred Jews were killed in Babi Yar in 1941 and this is what the earliest reports stated. Then suddenly one report mentioned 33 000 deaths, which was then copied by various other reports. When the Soviets dug up the place in 1943/1944 they found a mere 120 bodies or so, not tens of thousands.
And yes, the photographs prove that there was no large-scale outdoor cremation of corpses in the time period stated by the witnesses. This also indicates that the actual death toll was very low.
And yes, the photographs prove that there was no large-scale outdoor cremation of corpses in the time period stated by the witnesses. This also indicates that the actual death toll was very low.
Re: How Babi Yar Casts Doubt on the Holocaust
Using air photos and wartime newspapers, Ukrainian writer MICHAEL NIKIFORUK attacks a few myths about a wartime atrocity.
THE MEMORY of the "massacre" of Jews at Babi Yar is painful to all politicians. But evidence shows it never happened. Aerial reconnaissance photos taken before and during World War II show mass graves of victims of the Soviet Cheka/NKVD, but an absence of Jewish mass burials.
What if anything, happened at a place called Babi Yar (Old Woman's Ravine) near Kiev, Ukraine - September 29, 1941? According to official histories and inscriptions on monuments, 250,000 people, mostly Jews, were killed by the Nazis there. But if thousands of Kievan Jews (those not evacuated by the Soviets) were killed in September of 1941 by the Germans, they were not murdered or buried at Babi Yar. This fact was revealed in aerial reconnaissance photos discovered in the U.S. National Archives in Washington, DC.
In February 1997 a Ukrainian court threw out a case brought by Ukrainian Jews against V. Kretytnychy of the St. Andrew Society and E. Musiyenko, editor of the Kiev Evening News (Vechirnyi Kyiv), who challenged the official Babi Yar story. Encouraged by the court decision, on March 19, 1997 the Kiev Evening News published a four-page story setting the record straight for the first time since the Allies condemned the phony "atrocity" during World War II.
What is now coming to the fore is incontrovertible proof that no massacre took place at Babi Yar during the German occupation of Kiev; that the ravine was not used as a mass grave for Jews killed by the Germans. But it was a burial field between 1922-1935 for the victims of the Cheka/NKVD.
For decades, aerial photography has been recognized as an indispensable archaeological tool. With sophisticated equipment, ruins of ancient cities and cemeteries that lie under cultivated fields, forgotten for decades or centuries, have been discovered. Even submerged Hellenic ports have been discovered by aerial photography.
In 1991, wartime aerial photographs from the National Archives in Washington, DC were used as the ultimate guidance in exhumations of hundreds of Polish officers and intellectuals massacred in 1939-40 by the Soviet NKVD in the vicinity of Kharkiv. Aerial photos of Kiev's distant suburbs, including Bykivnia, Bilhorodka and Darnista, revealed mass graves of victims of the 1930's Stalinist terror-famine. It is therefore logical to assume that aerial photos of a ravine would reveal evidence of recent mass graves or of a major topographic disturbance.
The US National Archives in Washington contain about 1,100,000 wartime aerial photos, among them some 600 of Kiev, including Babi Yar. They were taken during 20 or more flights over the area. The first photos, taken at 12:23 pm on May 17, 1939, reveal such details as cars and even the shadows of the lamp posts on the streets of Kiev. Every large bush and small tree is visible on the slopes and at the bottom of the Babi Yar ravine. The last aerial photo coverage of Kiev (and Babi Yar) took place on June 18, 1944, about nine months after the city's "liberation" by the Red Army.
This series of reconnaissance photos demonstrates that the flora and the ground cover of the ravine remained undisturbed throughout the two years of German occupation. When the early and late photos are compared, it is obvious that the scattered trees grew and became slightly larger. No evidence of human or large animal activity in the ravine can be discerned on the many aerial photos of Babi Yar taken repeatedly in different seasons of the years 1939-1944.
In November of 1943, a group of Western journalists, including New York Times correspondent William "Bill" Lawrence, himself Jewish, were invited to Kiev by the Soviets. This occurred two weeks after the city's fall to the Red Army. The reporters were told that this was only six weeks after the Germans had completed the dynamiting, disinterment and open-air cremation of 70,000 corpses, followed by the crushing and bulldozing of the unburned bones into the soil of the ravine.
But the Western journalists were hard pressed to find any convincing physical evidence at the site of the alleged massacre.
The lack of reliable physical evidence of this "greatest massacre of World War II" - and the inability to find a single inhabitant of Kiev willing to corroborate the story - impelled the NKVD to provide the Westerners with three "eyewitnesses." Even though a Times editor censored out the most egregious exaggerations (about Soviet partisans and German "gassing vans"), the disjointed story by these three liberated Soviet POW's became the template for imitation for all subsequent Babi Yar testimonies.
When one realizes that all liberated Soviet POW's were facing either a firing squad or a short-lived future in the Gulags (it was a capital crime in the USSR for a soldier to be captured alive by the enemy), one realizes why it was easy for the NKVD to coerce any expedient statement from them.
Two weeks later, Soviet authorities were able to orchestrate massive "grass roots" support for their three Babi Yar witnesses. According to the "front pages of Moscow newspapers," (as reported in the United States), "40,000 Kiev residents [sent a letter] to Premier Josef Stalin, raising the estimate of the number killed and burned in the [Babi Yar] ravine to more than 10,000 (New York Times, Dec. 4, 1943).
Since - in later years - only 11 of these supposedly well-informed citizens offered any testimony, the wartime statistical reports in the NYT regarding Babi Yar (as well as the subsequent testimonies of belated witnesses) may be considered baseless. By 1943, the NKVD had a well-earned reputation for its ability to obtain any testimony from almost any witness.
For instance, in August of 1941, the Soviet press agency TASS and the Associated Press reported as fact the testimonies of NKVD-provided witnesses to the effect that the massacre of about 4,000 Ukrainians in NKVD prisons in the city of Lviv in late June of that year "was committed by the Nazi Storm troopers." This in spite of the fact that Lviv had not been taken by the Germans until July 1, 1941. Long famous testimony extorted by the NKVD from a large number of witnesses told of the mass murder of 4,500 Polish military officers and intellectuals by the Nazis in the Katyn Forest. These fraudulent testimonies, taken under oath in the fall of 1943, were finally refuted by the Russians in the spring of 1990.
However, this admission was not forthcoming until the German pre-invasion aerial reconnaissance photo of Katyn (showing the mass graves of the Polish officers, teachers, etc.) had been transmitted in the fall of 1989 to the Soviet authorities.
Chronology suggests that the NKVD provided Western correspondents with three Soviet ex-POW, as witnesses of the Babi Yar massacre to test their credibility under scrutiny of non-Soviets. In 1943, the Babi Yar massacre, being almost unknown in the West and thus unimportant, was apparently selected by the NKVD for such a "dress rehearsal" prior to the contemplated exposure to Western journalists of fraudulent Katyn massacre witnesses in this far more publicized and more politically important affair.
As a result of the failed Babi Yar credibility test for their ex-POWs, the Soviets for 25 years did not provide access to live "eyewitnesses" of massacres to Western correspondents in Katyn or elsewhere.
Furthermore, the Soviets postponed the inspection of Katyn by Westerners for four months, from Sept. 29, 1943 to January 24, 1944, until the site and the physical evidence were covered by snow and literally frozen, as was the reporters' investigative zeal in the unheated tents provided them.
Among the observers of the work of the Soviet investigative commission was 25-year-old Kathleen Harriman (daughter of then-US Ambassador to Moscow W. Averell Harriman) who, in her naivete', later became (along with her father) a champion of Soviet credibility. On the other hand, the more experienced Lawrence from the NYT, who was also present, was even more skeptical in his Katyn report about presented evidence than in his earlier Babi Yar story. As a result, his Katyn report was spiked and never published.
Thus, the false testimony of the NKVD-provided eyewitnesses of the alleged Babi Yar massacre became the cornerstone of a decades-long Soviet judicial policy of not allowing their fraudulent atrocity witnesses to testify independently; that is, beyond the reach of the supervising Soviet prosecutor, or outside the borders of the USSR.
Soviet archival records reveal that the atrocity propaganda about Katyn and Babi Yar was fabricated by Ilya Ehrenburg and Vasily Grossman, who also invented and reported the now discredited victim counts of Nazi concentration camps: 4 million at Auschwitz; 1.5 million at Majdanek and 3.5 million at Treblinka.
Even at the Nuremberg Trials, the Soviets did not provide to Western authorities or correspondents live eyewitnesses to any German massacres, including Babi Yar and Katyn. Instead, Soviet Prosecutor Col. Smirnoff peddled--but without much success--fabrications in the form of affidavits about the two alleged German massacres. Also Ilya Ehrenburg, in his 1947 novel, The Storm, tried unsuccessfully to revitalize the Babi Yar story.
The Old Woman's Ravine story did not gain "credibility" until 12 years later. Then, a visiting Jewish-Ukrainian-American journalist, Joseph Schechtman, persuaded young Soviet dissident Evgeny Yevtushenko to write an emotional and widely read poem "Babi Yar".
But poetic fancy cannot stand against physical evidence. Indeed, the aerial photos of the Ahovtnevyi borough of Kiev and the general area of Babi Yar reveal the presence of a row of about 10 mass graves, some 165 yards behind the western fence of Kiev's labor camp, Syretz. These could contain up to 1,000 victims of the camp buried over the two years of the German occupation of Kiev. Furthermore, at the nearby small Orthodox Lukianivsky cemetery, another, larger mass grave can be seen. This could contain up to 2,000 bodies of the frequent public or surreptitious German executions of resistance fighters of Kiev.
On this subject, according to the Hague Convention (1905) and the Geneva Convention (1920) on the conduct of civilians during wartime, taking part in hostilities without easily visible, external symbols of belonging to the military units is subject to immediate execution.
https://archive.org/details/WhatHappene ... h/mode/2up
https://archive.org/details/WhatHappene ... k/mode/2up
"[Austen Chamberlain] has done western civilization a great service by refuting at least one of the slanders against the Germans
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed. "
Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed. "
Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925
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