BA's case for orthodoxy

[bombsaway]

Is your 20,000 cubic meter number just the total volume for the samples with remains or does it account for the fact that many of the samples had thin layers of ash? Does it account for the wood ash?

Also, you can't just magically skip ahead to pure cremains at the end. Remember, the 600,000 Jews had to be buried first. If we assume for example 8 bodies per square meter, this would have occupied an area of perhaps some 75,000 square meters. In the Kola maps, the vast majority of the samples are listed as "No Disruptions - Natural Strata." So then where were these original graves? If you left those bodies to decompose for several months and then dug them back up with machinery, realistically I would be surprised if there were no traces of those original graves. Without question there would be soil disruptions, but also probably body parts, etc.

Kola gives roughly 20k cubic meters of total grave space for the part of the camp he investigated.

Reports are bodies were being burned in summer of 1942, likely because of the grave space issue you mention. https://www.ns-archiv.de/verfolgung/pol ... edlung.php

Kola does report body parts in the graves, see his descriptions here: https://www.holocausthistoricalsociety. ... tions.html

Grave Pit No. 3

Located in the southern part of the camp. This was the first mass grave, the location of which was positively identified from a Luftwaffe aerial photograph taken in 1944. It appears as a T-shaped white patch and has the appearance of being the biggest grave in the camp. Dimensions of the grave were determined as 16 meters by 15 meters and a depth of over 5 meters. The grave contained a mixture of carbonised wood, fragments of burnt human bones, pieces of skulls with skin and tufts of hair still attached, lumps of greyish human fat, and fragments of unburned human bones. The bottom layer consisted of putrid wax-fat transformation. The volume of the pit was about 960 meters.

You are saying that the amount ash found "confirms" the story (which almost seems constructed to be harder to falsify), but it could just as easily be said to "confirm" or be consistent with a far smaller number of bodies.

I think what you say makes some sense. The amount killed at the camp could have been far lower, say 50k people who were euthanized because they were judged to be unable to survive the arduous resettlement process. Then the bodies were burnt and destroyed for sanitary reasons and to hide the evidence. However higher amounts (much higher, beyond 600k) also seem quite possible to me given Kola's grave descriptions. Almost every grave is said to contain cremains -- which is distinguished from charcoal (wood ash). A quick calculation confirms 100 cubic inches as being the volume of cremains generated by burning a 100 pound body. 100 cubic inches goes into 1 cubic meter 600 times, so 20,000 cubic meters if consisting of 10% ashes could hold the remains of 1.2 million.

As I've said before I wouldn't put much credence in the forensic studies absent of other evidence. However I don't think this evidence, and the problems I've outlined with the various revisionist hypotheses, can be discounted based on the studies conducted at these sites. It seems many posters here are doing this and I think this approach is wrong.

[Hektor]

The claim is not that the remains were converted into fertilizer but rather mixed with sand and deposited in the graves. They would then be detectable with core samples or simple excavation.

Yes, I know that. But that doesn't exclude the existence or lack of a geophysical anomaly similar to that of Waterloo. More evidence, more certainty.

.....
Obviously though geophysical anomaly visible from the surface isn't proof of body destruction, for that samples need to be extracted and analyzed.

You can't have:
- No bodies / remains
- No valid explanation for their disposal
- No evidence for their disposal
And then claim somebody killed 100.000s of people here a while ago.

I get that there is decay in graves as well, but it takes time. And there will still be some preservation of remains. Researchers occasionally find (mass) graves that are thousands of years. The thing is just that graves are usually close to settled areas that also may shift and expand over time. In the process thereof graves may be dug up and remains disposed elsewhere.

That you have a camp in a rural area (No big cities nearby), as was the case with some of the transit camps in occupied Poland, and then have no remains of asserted 100.000s of people killed. That just means that you have no proof that your assertion (which happens to be a major accusation) is false. Even if you think that your hypothesis/accusation IS TRUE, you still have to point out that you do not have physical evidence for this. But that was never made clear. For those transit camps figures in the 100.000s were asserted. So people will assume that this was said, because there was concise evidence for this. Not telling them that physical evidence was not found, hence not the base for the assertion, is lying to the public plain and simple. And those still asserting that 100.000s were killed there, are actually lying.

Bear in mind that they had decades time to back-up their assertion. Bear in mind they put people on trial for this, but didn't back-up their assertions. And it is now ~80 years later and they tell us: "Oh, we're looking at some core sample now, please be patient.".

If you do your research now, please apologize at least that your previous accusations were baseless, at least.

[hermod]

As far as I know nothing was detected around Waterloo.

Nothing was investigated there. Only postulated so far.

Here's the definition of geophysical anomaly: "Area where geophysical properties (e.g. radiometric, magnetic, electromagnetic, gravity) differ from surrounding areas and which may be the result of mineralisation."

So yes, Sobibor grave sites would seem to qualify (grass coloration)

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/ ... mmente.jpg

Any experienced garderner could tell you that evenly green lawns are quite rare in nature and that the creation of such a uniform area often requires a lot of work. A number of natural factors can explain the appearance of the Sobibor lawn. Most of time, Mother Nature doesn't grow an English lawn.

[bombsaway]

Slowly catching up on posts, I'll try to respond to everyone but it may take some time.

One needs to know that the train records of those deportations were highly centralized and that the whole paper trail was kept on site at the Reinhardt camps. That was demonstrated in July 1944, when a single Soviet bomb destroyed all the train records of Belzec. Knowing this, one realizes how easy it was for the Soviets to destroy the railway documents debunking their own anti-German atrocity propaganda about those camps, i.e. all the outbound train records of the Reinhardt camps. Are we supposed to believe that the Bolsheviks were stupid enough to leave untouched a few piles of German documents debunking their own propaganda lies? Far-fetched and absurd if I'm asked...

From the article "What Happened To The Inmates Of The Aktion Reinhardt Transit Camps Of Treblinka, Belzec & Sobibor in Poland? Can The Allies Version Be Trusted?" by John Wear:

https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2019/03/ ... e-trusted/

Yes centralized records would be easier to destroy, this is part of the orthodox hypothesis for the existence of mass extermination centers rather than killing people off in more piecemeal fashion which is what happened with a lot of the SS police shootings in the east. The hypothesis that the Soviets destroyed the records for these camps is speculative, again non-evidence based.

The hypothesis that the Germans themselves destroyed the records is evidence based. I've referenced this document before http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/arloot.htm but in it Globocnik says "There is one additional factor to be added to the total accounting of "Reinhardt" which is that the vouchers dealing with it must be destroyed as soon as possible after the data have already been destroyed by all other works concerned in this matter. " Wear reveals himself to be a substandard historian by not even bringing this up, though it's understandable why he would want to avoid talking about a mass cover up on the German side. These were innocent transit camps right, so this documentation would exonerate them if anything (Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec had been noted worldwide as probable extermination centers in 1942)

The other serious mistake Wear makes that should be obvious to everyone is that transport documents would be but a sliver of the total documentation and evidence that a mass resettlement operation would produce. If the Jews were kept in a centralized location (whose records would be easily destroyable by the Soviets) this would be a resettlement city of millions or many hundreds of thousands. How come nothing like this is even hinted at in the records? If they were simply let off at the trains as some have speculated, German security forces would have something to say about this, given the excessive records of Police shootings of Soviet Jews (probably hundreds or thousands of documents here)

Wear also undermines his own case when he points out the Soviets failed to destroy records of small scale crimes they committed. This should give us serious pause about their ability to carry out a much more massive cover up.

Lastly he doesn't answer the question "What Happened To The Inmates Of The Aktion Reinhardt Transit Camps Of Treblinka, Belzec & Sobibor in Poland?" No evidence is presented other than the case of Sigmund Rothstein

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... anard.html

Wear does not respond to the very sensible criticism here, which is that when you examine the primary source no indication is given that Rothstein made it to Minsk. As I've shown previously, even if this was true it doesn't explain much about what happened to the transited "Reinhardt Jews". Minsk ghetto was dissolved in 1943.

[fireofice]

Glad to finally find a document that talks about destruction of documents. I was wondering if such a document existed. I posted that document here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13837&start=45#p109012

And I've also taken HC's post on Rothstein into consideration as well. Doesn't seem like a good argument. I still am convinced of deneirbud's position on this, that these weren't major transit camps nor were they death camps. I treat deportation documents the same as I treat many of the Einsatzgruppen documents. Very unreliable. I think it's pretty clear that the Babi Yar massacre didn't happen, despite a document with wild numbers that says otherwise. If that can be so wrong, then this can be the case with deportation documents as well.

How Babi Yar Casts Doubt on the Holocaust
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14829

The physical evidence at Auschwitz proves there were no exterminations there.

The Chemistry of Auschwitz by Germar Rudolf
https://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=2

Yet we have documents of "deportations" there. "But where did they go?" Not gassed, that's for sure! Maybe the documents weren't accurate, as Arthur Butz proposed. If the Einsatzgruppen documents weren't accurate, then the same could be true of documents of other deportations. And there are no photos taken of the mass graves at the Reinhardt camps, despite ample opportunity to do so. So they weren't killed there, that's for sure. So they were either deported further east, or they were never deported to the camps in the first place. Simple as that.

I have a challenge for BA. Show us the exact documents that you think confirm anyone was deported to the Reinhardt camps (not further east, so don't bring up the Kube document or anything like that) in which we can infer that mass killings took place. I have an idea of what BA probably is referring to, but I think he should be precise in what he is referring to so we can judge if it is sufficient evidence of mass killings at these camps.

[hermod]

Slowly catching up on posts, I'll try to respond to everyone but it may take some time.

One needs to know that the train records of those deportations were highly centralized and that the whole paper trail was kept on site at the Reinhardt camps. That was demonstrated in July 1944, when a single Soviet bomb destroyed all the train records of Belzec. Knowing this, one realizes how easy it was for the Soviets to destroy the railway documents debunking their own anti-German atrocity propaganda about those camps, i.e. all the outbound train records of the Reinhardt camps. Are we supposed to believe that the Bolsheviks were stupid enough to leave untouched a few piles of German documents debunking their own propaganda lies? Far-fetched and absurd if I'm asked...

From the article "What Happened To The Inmates Of The Aktion Reinhardt Transit Camps Of Treblinka, Belzec & Sobibor in Poland? Can The Allies Version Be Trusted?" by John Wear:

https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2019/03/ ... e-trusted/

Yes centralized records would be easier to destroy, this is part of the orthodox hypothesis for the existence of mass extermination centers rather than killing people off in more piecemeal fashion which is what happened with a lot of the SS police shootings in the east. The hypothesis that the Soviets destroyed the records for these camps is speculative, again non-evidence based.

The hypothesis that the Germans themselves destroyed the records is evidence based. I've referenced this document before http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/arloot.htm but in it Globocnik says "There is one additional factor to be added to the total accounting of "Reinhardt" which is that the vouchers dealing with it must be destroyed as soon as possible after the data have already been destroyed by all other works concerned in this matter. " Wear reveals himself to be a substandard historian by not even bringing this up, though it's understandable why he would want to avoid talking about a mass cover up on the German side. These were innocent transit camps right, so this documentation would exonerate them if anything (Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec had been noted worldwide as probable extermination centers in 1942)

Perhaps Mr. Wear just considers, as Carlos W. Porter and I do, the Nuremberg documents more useful as cage liners for birds (absorbent paper for the bottom of birdcages) than as documentary evidence of anything.

https://postimg.cc/w7Dccgpp

Carlos Whitlock Porter:

The documents used in evidence at Nuremberg consisted largely of "photocopies" of "copies". Many of these original documents were written entirely on plain paper without handwritten markings of any kind, by unknown persons. Occasionally, there is an illegible initial or signature of a more or less unknown person certifying the document as a 'true copy'.

Sometimes there are German stamps, sometimes not. Many have been 'found' by the Russians, or 'certified authentic' by Soviet War Crimes Commissions.

The Hague has few, if any, original documents. The Hague has many original post-war 'affidavits', or sworn statements, the Tribunal Commission transcripts, and much valuable defense material. They have the 'human soap', which has never been tested, and the 'original human soap recipe' (Document USSR-196), which is a forgery; but apparently no original wartime German documents. The Hague has negative photostats of these documents, on extremely brittle paper which has been stapled. To photocopy the photostats, the staples are removed. When they are re-stapled more holes are made. Most of these documents have not been photocopied very often, and officials at the Hague say it is very unusual for anyone to ask to see them.

The National Archives in Washington (see Telford Taylor's Use of Captured German and Related Documents, A National Archive Conference) claim that the original documents are in The Hague. The Hague claims the original documents are in the National Archives.

The Stadtarchiv Nürnberg and the Bundesarchiv Koblenz also have no original documents, and both say the original documents are in Washington. Since the originals are, in most cases, 'copies', there is often no proof that the documents in question ever existed.

The Nuremberg papers at last in their right place?

The hypothesis that the Soviets destroyed the records for these camps is speculative, again non-evidence based.

As speculative and non-evidence based as the existence and ulterior destruction of the alleged huge mass graves at those camps???

The other serious mistake Wear makes that should be obvious to everyone is that transport documents would be but a sliver of the total documentation and evidence that a mass resettlement operation would produce. If the Jews were kept in a centralized location (whose records would be easily destroyable by the Soviets) this would be a resettlement city of millions or many hundreds of thousands. How come nothing like this is even hinted at in the records?

What about the just-discovered 42,500 Nazi camps and ghettos supposedly making the Holocaust "more shocking " 10 years ago???

NEWS ANALYSIS

The Holocaust Just Got More Shocking

By Eric Lichtblau
March 1, 2013

THIRTEEN years ago, researchers at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum began the grim task of documenting all the ghettos, slave labor sites, concentration camps and killing factories that the Nazis set up throughout Europe.

What they have found so far has shocked even scholars steeped in the history of the Holocaust.

The researchers have cataloged some 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps throughout Europe, spanning German-controlled areas from France to Russia and Germany itself, during Hitler’s reign of brutality from 1933 to 1945.

The figure is so staggering that even fellow Holocaust scholars had to make sure they had heard it correctly when the lead researchers previewed their findings at an academic forum in late January at the German Historical Institute in Washington.

“The numbers are so much higher than what we originally thought,” Hartmut Berghoff, director of the institute, said in an interview after learning of the new data.

The lead editors on the project, Geoffrey Megargee and Martin Dean, estimate that 15 million to 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the sites that they have identified as part of a multivolume encyclopedia. (The Holocaust museum has published the first two, with five more planned by 2025.)

The existence of many individual camps and ghettos was previously known only on a fragmented, region-by-region basis. But the researchers, using data from some 400 contributors, have been documenting the entire scale for the first time, studying where they were located, how they were run, and what their purpose was.

As early as 1933, at the start of Hitler’s reign, the Third Reich established about 110 camps specifically designed to imprison some 10,000 political opponents and others, the researchers found. As Germany invaded and began occupying European neighbors, the use of camps and ghettos was expanded to confine and sometimes kill not only Jews but also homosexuals, Gypsies, Poles, Russians and many other ethnic groups in Eastern Europe. The camps and ghettos varied enormously in their mission, organization and size, depending on the Nazis’ needs, the researchers have found.

The biggest site identified is the infamous Warsaw Ghetto, which held about 500,000 people at its height. But as few as a dozen prisoners worked at one of the smallest camps, the München-Schwabing site in Germany. Small groups of prisoners were sent there from the Dachau concentration camp under armed guard.

When the research began in 2000, Dr. Megargee said he expected to find perhaps 7,000 Nazi camps and ghettos, based on postwar estimates. But the numbers kept climbing — first to 11,500, then 20,000, then 30,000, and now 42,500.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/sund ... cking.html

42,500 Camps and Ghettos Were in Operation During the Holocaust
1933 to 1945

Researchers at the United States Holocaust Memorial MuseumOffsite Link in Washington, D. C. who in the year 2000 began documenting all the ghettos, slave labor sites, concentration camps and killing factories in operation during the Nazi regime, documented 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps throughout Europe, located in German-controlled areas from France to Russia and in Germany from 1933 to 1945.

In 2009 the Holocaust Memorial Museum began publication of The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, 1933-1945. The vast encyclopedia would be complete in 7 volumes by 2025. In September 2020 the first three volumes were in print.

https://historyofinformation.com/detail ... tryid=3988

Worse than the world ever imagined:
True scale of the Holocaust revealed as it's discovered
Nazis created 42,500 camps and ghettos to persecute Jews - not 7,000 as previously thought

But they were left horrified to discover 42,500 across much of Europe
They also estimate up to 20 million people died or were imprisoned at sites

By ANTHONY BOND
PUBLISHED: 12:36 EDT, 2 March 2013


Thirteen years ago, researchers at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum began the task of documenting all the ghettos, slave labour sites, concentration camps and killing factories that the Nazis set up throughout Europe - and realised they had underestimated the extent of the Nazis' evil. This map shows the vast spread of SS concentration camps across Europe


The map shows the Nazi ghettos and camps throughout Europe, spanning German-controlled areas from France to Russia and Germany itself

Researchers at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum have been documenting all of the Nazi concentration camps, ghettos, slave labour sites and killing factories which had been set up across Europe.

When they first started the project, the team expected to find about 7,000 camps and ghettos.

Shockingly, they discovered 42,500 camps across large swathes of German-controlled Europe. The researchers predict that up to 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the sites.

Speaking to the New York Times, Hartmut Berghoff, director of the institute, said: 'The numbers are so much higher than what we originally thought.

Previous data has shown just the existence of individual camps on a fragmented basis.

But using data from 400 contributors , they have now documented the large scale operation for the first time.

They have discovered exactly where they are located and how they were run.

It is now believed that the research could help survivors with their claims over unpaid insurance policies. Researchers say the project has helped change the understanding about Holocaust experts over how the camps were run.

The Warsaw Ghetto has been identified as the biggest site - holding about 500,000 people at one point.

When the project first started, the researchers expected to find about 7,000 Nazi camps and ghettos. But as the project has gone on, the numbers constantly increased to the current figure of 42,500.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... urope.html

[Hektor]

Shockingly, they discovered 42,500 camps across large swathes of German-controlled Europe. The researchers predict that up to 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the sites.

Residential sites don't mean anyone was killed there. They mean that people did stay there. If the carrying capacity was 20.000.000. Perhaps that answers the 'where did the deported Jews go' response many Holocaustians think was some kind of 'silver bullet'.

[bombsaway]

I want to get to everyone's posts so would appreciate it if you could so you could go easy on the questions and arguments until I catch up a bit.

Yet we have documents of "deportations" there. "But where did they go?" Not gassed, that's for sure! Maybe the documents weren't accurate, as Arthur Butz proposed. If the Einsatzgruppen documents weren't accurate, then the same could be true of documents of other deportations. And there are no photos taken of the mass graves at the Reinhardt camps, despite ample opportunity to do so. So they weren't killed there, that's for sure. So they were either deported further east, or they were never deported to the camps in the first place. Simple as that.

So to clarify here there have been photos of the grave surface, the drills, teams working etc. What there hasn't been is photos of large areas of the grave being cleared so ash layer could be observed and so forth (such excavations haven't been carried out by archeologists) . Your contention is it is absolutely impossible for the graves to exist because of this? I don't follow your logic here, please justify. This is a point that's been raised before by other posters and I don't think it's a rational view to have.

I can think of many compelling reasons for digs of this nature to not have been conducted, such as cost and religious sensitivity.

[fireofice]

Carlo Mattogno on the Kube document (and other documents):

First, there is the letter by Wilhelm Kube, Generalkommissar for Byelorussia, to Hinrich Lohse, Reichskommissar for the East, dated 31 July 1942, according to which, among other things, the Germans in Byelorussia had shot 55,000 Jews in the 10 past weeks (that is, around mid-May; the letter makes no mention of the presumed “gas vans”). This letter implicitly mentions the policy of resettlement in effect at the time, which was overwhelming the capacities of the local administrations (PS-3428):

“In addition to this clear attitude towards Jewry comes the difficult task for the SD in Byelorussia of over and over again taking new Jewish transports from the Reich to their destination. This constitutes an excessive material and emotional strain on the men of the SD and removes them from their tasks, which lie in the region of Byelorussia itself.

I would be grateful if the Reichskommissar could enable a halt to further Jewish transports to Minsk at least until the partisan danger has been finally vanquished. I need the SD one-hundred-percent against the partisans and the Polish resistance movement, which both fully occupy the SD units, most of which are not strong.

Following the completion of the Jewish Operation in Minsk, SS Obersturmbannführer Dr. Strauch reported to me this night, with justified indignation, that, without notification from the Reichsführer SS and without any communication to the Generalkommissar, a transport of 1,000 Jews from Warsaw destined for the local air-defense district had arrived.”

Kube requested that transports not authorized by Himmler be stopped:

“Under no circumstances can Wehrmacht services of the Army or the Air Force, without permission from Herr Reichskommissar, introduce into an area of civil administration Jews from the General Government or elsewhere, who will endanger the entire political work and security of the General District.”

Since executed or incarcerated Jews cannot endanger anything, it is clear that it was expected that these Jews would neither be killed nor imprisoned, but would rather be able to contribute to any unrest in the region:

“I am in complete agreement with the commander of the SD in Byelorussia that we should liquidate every Jewish transport which has not been ordered or announced by the authorities superior to us in order to prevent further cases of unrest in Byelorussia.” (Emphasis added)

On 11 August 1942, Kube transmitted to the Reich minister for the occupied eastern territories, Rosenberg, a protest from the territorial commissar for Baranovichi concerning the arrival of “400 Jews from the Reich as Manpower.” In the letter, which had as its subject “New Influx of Jews from the Reich,” Kube expressed his support for the protest and concluded:

“I therefore ask that the corresponding measures be taken so that further Jewish transports from the Reich are essentially ceased and also request an instruction [to be communicated] that such transports are not to be admitted into my General District.”

On 17 August, Kube requested instructions from the Reichskommissar for the East, Lohse, who answered as follows on 24 August:

“In his report from 31 July of this year, the general commissar of Byelorussia stood categorically opposed to further Jewish transports from the Reich to Byelorussia, as these [transports] significantly increase the danger posed by partisans, and the local Security Police is [already] fully utilized in the fight against partisans. The Reichskommissar has prohibited any remonstrances against the [situation regarding the] Jewish transports from the Reich. So long as I do not receive any instruction [to the contrary], I assume that the Jewish transports carried out on the directive of the Reichsführer SS [Himmler] and the [Reich] Main Security Office are to be accepted without any further protest. On the other hand, I believe it justified to object to the military commander against Jewish transports into the East which are carried out on grounds of labor deployment, as only a central agency may handle and decide upon the import of further Jews into the East.”

An internal memo from Lohse dated 21 September, addressed to the “Division II Administration” of the Reichskommissariat, informed all and sundry of the decision that “no protest was to be raised against the Jewish transports.”

This decision was communicated to Kube on 30 September:

“As personally decided by the Reichskommissar, he will abstain from voicing any objections against further Jewish transports to the East. This matter is exclusively the responsibility of the Security Police. It must be left to the commander of the Security Police in Byelorussia, through his official channels, to raise objections to transports which are carried out without the approval of the responsible agencies of the Security Police.” (Emphasis added)

At the time, therefore, two types of Jewish transports were arriving in Byelorusia:

1. “Jewish transports occurring on orders of the Reichsführer SS and/or the Security Main Office,” which were “regular” and allowed of no objections,

2. and those requested for manpower purposes by individual local authorities without the preliminary approval of the general commissar (Kube) or the competent SS and Police Leader (SS Oberführer Karl Schäfer) – such as the transport of 1,000 Jews from Warsaw on 21 July 1942 and that of 400 Jews arriving at Baranovichi from the Reich “as manpower” on 11 August 1942, referred to in Kube’s letter, mentioned above – which were “irregular.”

Yet still, the commander of the Security Police in Byelorussia could only prevent such irregular transport by complaints filed using the regular hierarchical channels.

It follows that the first kind of transports had to be accepted without protest, while the second kind admitted the possibility of protest, in the absence of which they had to be treated like the first. If Kube threatened to “liquidate” the second type of transports, it is obvious that he was not authorized, hence could not liquidate the first kind, which were precisely the transports to which reference was made in the teletype of 15 June 1942, and it is even more obvious that none of the Jewish transports arriving in Byelorussia was destined to be “liquidated,” because it makes no sense to threaten to kill people who are already destined to die anyway.

The Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories—Genesis, Missions and Actions by Carlo Mattogno pages 327-329

So there you have it. These set of documents indicate non genocidal deportations to the east. Like I said earlier, if one thinks this was not possible, then the documents are wrong. If they are right, then it was possible to deport them alive to the east. Either way, you can't appeal to deportation documents to prove your extermination theory.

[Hektor]

Carlo Mattogno on the Kube document (and other documents):

First, there is the letter by Wilhelm Kube, Generalkommissar for ....second type of transports, it is obvious that he was not authorized, hence could not liquidate the first kind, which were precisely the transports to which reference was made in the teletype of 15 June 1942, and it is even more obvious that none of the Jewish transports arriving in Byelorussia was destined to be “liquidated,” because it makes no sense to threaten to kill people who are already destined to die anyway.

The Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories—Genesis, Missions and Actions by Carlo Mattogno pages 327-329

So there you have it. These set of documents indicate non genocidal deportations to the east. Like I said earlier, if one thinks this was not possible, then the documents are wrong. If they are right, then it was possible to deport them alive to the east. Either way, you can't appeal to deportation documents to prove your extermination theory.

Indeed. For the extermination theory the deportation are an integral part. Their theory is that 'the Nazis deported the Jews to concentration camps, where they murdered them'. So for the dimwit deportation equals extermination. But this is of course nonsense. It's like assuming someone that got arrested must have been executed and only showing him alive afterwards could disprove this.

Deportations are a necessary part of the narrative, but they don't prove the extermination part of the narrative in anyway.
Yet Holocaustians use documents dealing with deportation of people as silver bullet proof for extermination by gassing. It is not. That they do so, shows that it is a deception they are in. Being deceived and now deceiving others. They of course get even more clever, when they have to defend their thesis. They come up with 'convergence of evidence' and then cite pictures of dead people, cans of zyklon b, crematory ovens, mean things Hitler said about Jews, etc. But that is spin-doctoring and not proving a thesis.
What they do is assume that their thesis is true (having a baconian idol of paradigm) and then fit and interpret anything reality to suit their thesis. That's neither rational nor empirical, it's how cults work to make their adherents believe something (consider it true).

[bombsaway]

Carlo Mattogno on the Kube document (and other documents):

The only example of a transport given is 1,000 Jews from Warsaw sent over to work for the Luftwaffe. This was actually before the mass deportations started there. As I've said previously, the contention is there's no evidence of non-employable Polish Jews being transported or housed anywhere in German occupied USSR. Kube's protest against Polish Jewish laborers entering his territory (to the point where he says he wants to kill them upon arrival) is more so Holocaust evidence than not.

We can talk more about this, but you seem to have another more basic issue -- did you see my post here?

posting.php?mode=quote&f=2&p=109023#pr109022

I should correct myself and say there 'a few' compelling reasons

[Hektor]

Carlo Mattogno on the Kube document (and other documents):

The only example of a transport given is 1,000 Jews from Warsaw sent over to work for the Luftwaffe. This was actually before the mass deportations started there. As I've said previously, the contention is there's no evidence of non-employable Polish Jews being transported or housed anywhere in German occupied USSR. Kube's protest against Polish Jewish laborers entering his territory (to the point where he says he wants to kill them upon arrival) is more so Holocaust evidence than not.

We can talk more about this, but you seem to have another more basic issue -- did you see my post here?

posting.php?mode=quote&f=2&p=109023#pr109022

I should correct myself and say there 'a few' compelling reasons

Actually there is. Or who stayed in the Ghettos that were established in the occupied territories previously occupied by the USSR?!

And as for evidence for transport, who has control over the railway records. Now it would be interesting to see not only deportation (inbound) records e.g. to the transit camps. One would also need to see whether there are outbound records. Whether they were empty, etc.

I understand that there are still some gaps in the research on the subject.

[fireofice]

Carlo Mattogno on the Kube document (and other documents):

The only example of a transport given is 1,000 Jews from Warsaw sent over to work for the Luftwaffe. This was actually before the mass deportations started there. As I've said previously, the contention is there's no evidence of non-employable Polish Jews being transported or housed anywhere in German occupied USSR. Kube's protest against Polish Jewish laborers entering his territory (to the point where he says he wants to kill them upon arrival) is more so Holocaust evidence than not.

We can talk more about this, but you seem to have another more basic issue -- did you see my post here?

posting.php?mode=quote&f=2&p=109023#pr109022

I should correct myself and say there 'a few' compelling reasons

Anyone can read what I posted and see it's referring to multiple deportations in the summer of 1942. And it's not just "one transport" as you say. The documents demonstrate that:

none of the Jewish transports arriving in Byelorussia was destined to be “liquidated,” because it makes no sense to threaten to kill people who are already destined to die anyway

These were multiple deportations in the summer of 1942. You are not going to wiggle out of this.

I can think of many compelling reasons for digs of this nature to not have been conducted, such as cost and religious sensitivity.

Yet they are willing to spend a ton of money on "holocaust education". So that explanation is bunk. And there is much more "sensitivity" to holocaust denial. Their excuses for not digging these graves up don't hold up.

[bombsaway]

Yet they are willing to spend a ton of money on "holocaust education". So that explanation is bunk. And there is much more "sensitivity" to holocaust denial. Their excuses for not digging these graves up don't hold up.

I think it's a stretch to say that the reason "holocaust education" exists is to combat revisionism. It makes a lot of money first of all, is probably profitable overall. Jews would also have reason to play it up as a way of combating anti semitism, if they believe people are very anti semitic, which seems to be the case.

I don't see any connection re religious sensitivity. Cultural sure. Religion goes back to the bible you know. If there's prohibitions there with moving remains I can see this being an issue.

I think it's also probable (from what I've heard here) that showing a partial excavation wouldn't convince most revisionists anyway. I asked the question earlier about what would and nobody could give me a firm answer, but I'd guess this would include bringing in revisionists to oversee all aspects of the process, from extraction to DNA testing for confirmation of number / ancestry so on. Something like this is unprecedented, when you take into account the volume of remains that would have to be extracted.

Basically what you say is possible, but far from certain, and in my mind not even particularly likely. Honestly the fact that Krege was able to poke around these sites for days or weeks undisturbed is stronger evidence that the graves are real. Otherwise the overseers of the sites would be worried about what people might discover underneath.

[fireofice]

Yet they are willing to spend a ton of money on "holocaust education". So that explanation is bunk. And there is much more "sensitivity" to holocaust denial. Their excuses for not digging these graves up don't hold up.

I think it's a stretch to say that the reason "holocaust education" exists is to combat revisionism. It makes a lot of money first of all, is probably profitable overall. Jews would also have reason to play it up as a way of combating anti semitism, if they believe people are very anti semitic, which seems to be the case.

I don't see any connection re religious sensitivity. Cultural sure. Religion goes back to the bible you know. If there's prohibitions there with moving remains I can see this being an issue.

I think it's also probable (from what I've heard here) that showing a partial excavation wouldn't convince most revisionists anyway. I asked the question earlier about what would and nobody could give me a firm answer, but I'd guess this would include bringing in revisionists to oversee all aspects of the process, from extraction to DNA testing for confirmation of number / ancestry so on. Something like this is unprecedented, when you take into account the volume of remains that would have to be extracted.

Basically what you say is possible, but far from certain, and in my mind not even particularly likely. Honestly the fact that Krege was able to poke around these sites for days or weeks undisturbed is stronger evidence that the graves are real. Otherwise the overseers of the sites would be worried about what people might discover underneath.

Well I don't see why they can't make a profit out of this as well. If they can make a profit from "holocaust education" that involves a bunch of dead people at the camps who died of disease, they can surely profit off of this as well. If you are going to say that the investment put into this would not be worth the risk, as it might not make a profit, but this somehow wouldn't apply to all other forms of holocaust education, that's on you to demonstrate.

Also, the "religious prohibition" excuse is absurd. Think of the implications this would have in the modern day if someone were to murder a Jew and bury them, but we then can't exhume it and do any kind of autopsy on it for "religious reasons". That would just be completely absurd. Well it's just as absurd here.

The Big Excuse: 'excavation & exhumation of Jews forbidden'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6817

As for your comments on Krege, this is just silly. What do you expect, armed guards around the clock to prevent people looking around? I'm not claiming they are that invested. But they would be invested enough to at the very least confirm the graves if they were there.

As for what I would accept, I can't give you an exact number. This is the continuum fallacy. Just because I can't draw an exact line "OK at this exact point, we can conclude it was an extermination camp" doesn't mean that I can't be convinced of it. It would be like asking "how many hairs on someone's head would someone have to have until you consider them not to be bald?" I don't know exactly, but I would know it when I see it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox