Dear list members and lurkers,
to introduce myself first: I am at this point neither a believer nor a revisionist. Being familiar with the details of some other (non-20th century) historical controversies, and after following a bit of the holocaust debate, I would describe myself as an agnostic. I would like to ask a few constructive questions to get a closer understanding of the revisionist position. I won't trouble you with a repetition of the basics nor with polemical leg-pulling. Instead, I'd like to focus on some as yet unclear or controversial points which a sincere observer might well evaluate as serious counter-arguments against the revisionist thesis. So, here goes:
The well-known Posen speech by Heinrich Himmler (Oct. 1943) does seem to say that the Germans had (in the past tense, as if referring to an accomplished deed) the right to kill "this people" which wanted to kill them, and that the children were killed off along with the adults in order to prevent their future revenge. On revisionist websites, I find the following approaches:
(1) seemingly contrived pedantry about the meanings of words (Ausrottung etc.), as by Carlos Porter; some uncommon interpretations may be legitimate (e.g. the line that "we know what it is to see a hundred corpses" need not refer to gassing victims as commonly assumed, but to German military victims of an enemy war effort for which "the Jews" were somehow deemed responsible, so that this refers to Jews as culprits rather than as victims), but not all.
(2) the claim that the two most incriminating pages in the typed-out version used in Holocaust trials were forged, as alleged in passing and with insufficient detail by David Irving; and that the audiotape of the speech, like some of Churchill's speeches, was spoken by an actor on orders of the Allied prosecutors.
(3) any other? Any way to either remove the incriminating passages as fabricated or to reinterpret them in a non-holocaust sense?
(second question to follow in separate thread)
Attila
Posen speech
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Some points on Posen:
- This alleged speech, as German judge Staeglich has adroitly pointed out, is a hodgepodge of non-sequitors, nonsense, and re-worked text.
see: http://codoh.com/library/document/230
- There are missing pages, retyped pages by different hands, even repaginated.
- Then we have a so called "secret" speech in front of thousands. Frankly the assertions about it are laughable.
- Yivo (Yiddish Scientific Institute) of New York was very active in the Rosenberg Ministry to process documents for submittal to the Nuremberg trials.
- members of the audience like SS-OGruF Gottlob Berger denied that Himmler was talking about the extermination of the Jews at all.
- Also questionable is the alleged tape recording of the speech. To have a speech with such alleged secret content recorded on tape? Right. SS General Berger did not recognize Himmler’s voice listening to the tape.
- In 1993, Robert Wolfe, supervisory archivist for captured German records at the National Archives admitted that a more precise translation of 'ausrottung' would be extirpation or tearing up by the roots. Wolfe also pointed out that in Himmler's handwritten notes for the speech, that Himmler used the term, 'judenevakuierung', or evacuation of the Jews, not 'extermination'.
- the complete lack of physical evidence to support the false assertions
- the complete lack of orders for the assumptions being made
Like so much else about this so called holocau$t, the Posen speech when scrutinized doesn't hold up.
Hannover
- This alleged speech, as German judge Staeglich has adroitly pointed out, is a hodgepodge of non-sequitors, nonsense, and re-worked text.
see: http://codoh.com/library/document/230
- There are missing pages, retyped pages by different hands, even repaginated.
- Then we have a so called "secret" speech in front of thousands. Frankly the assertions about it are laughable.
- Yivo (Yiddish Scientific Institute) of New York was very active in the Rosenberg Ministry to process documents for submittal to the Nuremberg trials.
- members of the audience like SS-OGruF Gottlob Berger denied that Himmler was talking about the extermination of the Jews at all.
- Also questionable is the alleged tape recording of the speech. To have a speech with such alleged secret content recorded on tape? Right. SS General Berger did not recognize Himmler’s voice listening to the tape.
- In 1993, Robert Wolfe, supervisory archivist for captured German records at the National Archives admitted that a more precise translation of 'ausrottung' would be extirpation or tearing up by the roots. Wolfe also pointed out that in Himmler's handwritten notes for the speech, that Himmler used the term, 'judenevakuierung', or evacuation of the Jews, not 'extermination'.
- the complete lack of physical evidence to support the false assertions
- the complete lack of orders for the assumptions being made
Like so much else about this so called holocau$t, the Posen speech when scrutinized doesn't hold up.
Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
Posen
There's much wrong with the Posen speech as presented by the Industry. Hannover has handled most of them. I've heard two basic Revisionist positions on the speech. Either of them seems plausible to me.
First, there is the possibility that Himmler is talking about the Einsatzgruppen shootings. Even here, as Hannover has also pointed out, there is controversy. While the Reichsfuhrer-SS is definitely talking speciifically about Jews, Jews made up a high percentage of the so-called "partisans".
Second, there is the possibility that he's simply talking about removing the Jews. References to killing are few and far between and as also noted by Hannover, Staeglich has implied that one of the speeches could very well be a hodge-podge pasted together after the fact by the OSS or MI5.
Posen is a red herring. Staeglich and Porter have done a great job of dispensing with it.
Alain
First, there is the possibility that Himmler is talking about the Einsatzgruppen shootings. Even here, as Hannover has also pointed out, there is controversy. While the Reichsfuhrer-SS is definitely talking speciifically about Jews, Jews made up a high percentage of the so-called "partisans".
Second, there is the possibility that he's simply talking about removing the Jews. References to killing are few and far between and as also noted by Hannover, Staeglich has implied that one of the speeches could very well be a hodge-podge pasted together after the fact by the OSS or MI5.
Posen is a red herring. Staeglich and Porter have done a great job of dispensing with it.
Alain
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Scott
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Alain wrote:Scott wrote:Where is the electronic recording of the speech located? Has anybody analysed it using modern methods?
Nizkor has a supposed copy of the Posen speech. I don't have the URL handy or I'd paste it here. They have a search engine though so it shouldn't hard to find.
Nizkor has five minutes of Himmler's three-hour Posen speech (CLICK here!) that was supposedly recorded on magnetic tape and then released on phonographic disks. One of these disks was then allegedly found in Rosenberg's office after he had been executed by the IMT. This is the smoking-gun that everybody talks about.
I'm wondering where the original disk is, what others in the set have been found for the entirety of the speech, and whether anyone has ever electronically analysed this stuff.
Scott wrote:I'm wondering where the original disk is, what others in the set have been found for the entirety of the speech, and whether anyone has ever electronically analysed this stuff.
I think Staeglich analysed the recording. Whether he was able to get his hands on the "original disk" would depend on whether it actually exists.
Alain
Himmler's Posen speech was quite lengthy and the Jewish question only came up later on and took up only a couple of paragraphs.
Below is one of the paragraphs from the full speech taken from Carlos Porters website and probably the most straight forward presentation out there.
Below Himmler refers to piles of bodies, 500 here and a 1000 there. There was a time when Holocaust defenders would refer to that as if Himmler was talking about Jewish fatalities when in fact in context with what he said just before and after he was referring to Bolshevik slaughters and the Germans considered Jews to be the energy behind the Bolshevik evil.
http://www.cwporter.com/posen.htm
"I am thinking now of the evacuation of the Jews, the extirpation of the Jewish people. It is one of those things that's easy to say: "The Jewish people will be extirpated", says every Party comrade, "that's quite clear, it's in our programme: elimination of the Jews, extirpation; that's what we're doing." And then they all come along, these 80 million good Germans, and every one of them has his decent Jew. Of course, it's quite clear that the others are pigs, but this one is one first-class Jew. Of all those who speak this way, not one has looked on; not one has lived through it. Most of you know what it means when 100 bodies lie together, when 500 lie there, or if 1,000 lie there. To have gone through this, and at the same time, apart from exceptions caused by human weaknesses, to have remained decent, that has made us hard. This is a chapter of glory in our history which has never been written, and which never shall be written; since we know how hard it would be for us if we still had the Jews, as secret saboteurs, agitators, and slander-mongers, among us now, in every city -- during the bombing raids, with the suffering and deprivations of the war. We would probably already be in the same situation as in 1916/17 if we still had the Jews in the body of the German people."
===============================================
As for all the talk but no documentation about the Germans killing massive amounts of goyim Poles Himmler said in his speech that it was better that they react quickly to any pockets of Polish resistance and kill only ten at a time in order to not have to kill tens of thousands later.
Seems the Bolsheviks didn't have that kind of policy since they chose to kill thousands, ala Katyn.
Below is one of the paragraphs from the full speech taken from Carlos Porters website and probably the most straight forward presentation out there.
Below Himmler refers to piles of bodies, 500 here and a 1000 there. There was a time when Holocaust defenders would refer to that as if Himmler was talking about Jewish fatalities when in fact in context with what he said just before and after he was referring to Bolshevik slaughters and the Germans considered Jews to be the energy behind the Bolshevik evil.
http://www.cwporter.com/posen.htm
"I am thinking now of the evacuation of the Jews, the extirpation of the Jewish people. It is one of those things that's easy to say: "The Jewish people will be extirpated", says every Party comrade, "that's quite clear, it's in our programme: elimination of the Jews, extirpation; that's what we're doing." And then they all come along, these 80 million good Germans, and every one of them has his decent Jew. Of course, it's quite clear that the others are pigs, but this one is one first-class Jew. Of all those who speak this way, not one has looked on; not one has lived through it. Most of you know what it means when 100 bodies lie together, when 500 lie there, or if 1,000 lie there. To have gone through this, and at the same time, apart from exceptions caused by human weaknesses, to have remained decent, that has made us hard. This is a chapter of glory in our history which has never been written, and which never shall be written; since we know how hard it would be for us if we still had the Jews, as secret saboteurs, agitators, and slander-mongers, among us now, in every city -- during the bombing raids, with the suffering and deprivations of the war. We would probably already be in the same situation as in 1916/17 if we still had the Jews in the body of the German people."
===============================================
As for all the talk but no documentation about the Germans killing massive amounts of goyim Poles Himmler said in his speech that it was better that they react quickly to any pockets of Polish resistance and kill only ten at a time in order to not have to kill tens of thousands later.
Seems the Bolsheviks didn't have that kind of policy since they chose to kill thousands, ala Katyn.
TMoran wrote:Below Himmler refers to piles of bodies, 500 here and a 1000 there. There was a time when Holocaust defenders would refer to that as if Himmler was talking about Jewish fatalities when in fact in context with what he said just before and after he was referring to Bolshevik slaughters and the Germans considered Jews to be the energy behind the Bolshevik evil.
That's fascinating. And interesting also that you bring in Katyn. Hadn't the Nazis just recently completed their excavation there?
Earlier in this thread I'd mentioned the Revisionist position advanced by some that Himmler is speaking of Einsatzgruppen shootings against mostly Jewish "partisans". But that he's actually speaking about the Bolsheviks beforehand completely changes the context. And having just found Katyn, it makes the point even more crucial.
I'm really fascinated by this. I'll have to check out if Porter translated the entire speech. If he doesn't, does anyone know where it can be found? Nizkor only has the "incriminating" parts.
Alain
Alain had commented on my introducing the Katyn forest incident to the topic of the Posen speech:
'That's fascinating. And interesting also that you bring in Katyn. Hadn't the Nazis just recently completed their excavation there?'
===========================================
That's just yet another example of how the Katyn forest can be applied to challenge Holocaust nonsense.
The Katyn forest is like the revisionist weapon of mass demolition. It can be deployed to counter so many things.
'That's fascinating. And interesting also that you bring in Katyn. Hadn't the Nazis just recently completed their excavation there?'
===========================================
That's just yet another example of how the Katyn forest can be applied to challenge Holocaust nonsense.
The Katyn forest is like the revisionist weapon of mass demolition. It can be deployed to counter so many things.
First, there is the possibility that Himmler is talking about the Einsatzgruppen shootings. Even here, as Hannover has also pointed out, there is controversy. While the Reichsfuhrer-SS is definitely talking speciifically about Jews, Jews made up a high percentage of the so-called "partisans".
Second, there is the possibility that he's simply talking about removing the Jews. References to killing are few and far between and as also noted by Hannover, Staeglich has implied that one of the speeches could very well be a hodge-podge pasted together after the fact by the OSS or MI5.
There is a third and much more plausible explanation. Himmler was describing the SS's efforts to kill off the Jews. I mean really, if tape recorded speeches from the villian's own mouth isn't good enough, what is?
You ignored my points, why?
again:
- This alleged speech, as German judge Staeglich has adroitly pointed out, is a hodgepodge of non-sequitors, nonsense, and re-worked text.
see: http://codoh.com/library/document/230
- There are missing pages, retyped pages by different hands, even repaginated.
- Then we have a so called "secret" speech in front of thousands. Frankly the assertions about it are laughable.
- Yivo (Yiddish Scientific Institute) of New York was very active in the Rosenberg Ministry to process documents for submittal to the Nuremberg trials.
- members of the audience like SS-OGruF Gottlob Berger denied that Himmler was talking about the extermination of the Jews at all.
- Also questionable is the alleged tape recording of the speech. To have a speech with such alleged secret content recorded on tape? Right. SS General Berger did not recognize Himmler’s voice listening to the tape.
- In 1993, Robert Wolfe, supervisory archivist for captured German records at the National Archives admitted that a more precise translation of 'ausrottung' would be extirpation or tearing up by the roots. Wolfe also pointed out that in Himmler's handwritten notes for the speech, that Himmler used the term, 'judenevakuierung', or evacuation of the Jews, not 'extermination'.
- the complete lack of physical evidence to support the false assertions
- the complete lack of orders for the assumptions being made
Nowhere does Himmler talk about extermination of Jews.
Hannover
again:
- This alleged speech, as German judge Staeglich has adroitly pointed out, is a hodgepodge of non-sequitors, nonsense, and re-worked text.
see: http://codoh.com/library/document/230
- There are missing pages, retyped pages by different hands, even repaginated.
- Then we have a so called "secret" speech in front of thousands. Frankly the assertions about it are laughable.
- Yivo (Yiddish Scientific Institute) of New York was very active in the Rosenberg Ministry to process documents for submittal to the Nuremberg trials.
- members of the audience like SS-OGruF Gottlob Berger denied that Himmler was talking about the extermination of the Jews at all.
- Also questionable is the alleged tape recording of the speech. To have a speech with such alleged secret content recorded on tape? Right. SS General Berger did not recognize Himmler’s voice listening to the tape.
- In 1993, Robert Wolfe, supervisory archivist for captured German records at the National Archives admitted that a more precise translation of 'ausrottung' would be extirpation or tearing up by the roots. Wolfe also pointed out that in Himmler's handwritten notes for the speech, that Himmler used the term, 'judenevakuierung', or evacuation of the Jews, not 'extermination'.
- the complete lack of physical evidence to support the false assertions
- the complete lack of orders for the assumptions being made
Nowhere does Himmler talk about extermination of Jews.
Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
Bradrules says something about more plausible:
"There is a third and much more plausible explanation. Himmler was describing the SS's efforts to kill off the Jews. I mean really, if tape recorded speeches from the villian's own mouth isn't good enough, what is?"
=============================================
Maybe you should take a look at the section of Himmler's speech I pasted up and made the point about the hundreds unto thousands of bodies referring to the crimes of the Bolsheviks.
I didn't notice if you included any actual quotes from Himmler's speech to show what you were talking about. Did I miss something?
"There is a third and much more plausible explanation. Himmler was describing the SS's efforts to kill off the Jews. I mean really, if tape recorded speeches from the villian's own mouth isn't good enough, what is?"
=============================================
Maybe you should take a look at the section of Himmler's speech I pasted up and made the point about the hundreds unto thousands of bodies referring to the crimes of the Bolsheviks.
I didn't notice if you included any actual quotes from Himmler's speech to show what you were talking about. Did I miss something?
This alleged speech, as German judge Staeglich has adroitly pointed out, is a hodgepodge of non-sequitors, nonsense, and re-worked text.
Could you have picked a more biased source? This man was a german soldier. He fought and killed for Adolf Hitler. He is obviously feeling a little guilt for fighting on the side of evil and is trying to minimize now.
Your link didn't work...
what part was fallacy? why?
what part was nonsense? why?
what part was reworked text?
Show me where Staeglich is wrong. Specifics please.
the link works fine:
http://codoh.com/library/document/230 [link fixed by M1]
stop ignoring my points, again:
- This alleged speech, as German judge Staeglich has adroitly pointed out, is a hodgepodge of non-sequitors, nonsense, and re-worked text.
see: http://codoh.com/library/document/230
- There are missing pages, retyped pages by different hands, even repaginated.
- Then we have a so called "secret" speech in front of thousands. Frankly the assertions about it are laughable.
- Yivo (Yiddish Scientific Institute) of New York was very active in the Rosenberg Ministry to process documents for submittal to the Nuremberg trials.
- members of the audience like SS-OGruF Gottlob Berger denied that Himmler was talking about the extermination of the Jews at all.
- Also questionable is the alleged tape recording of the speech. To have a speech with such alleged secret content recorded on tape? Right. SS General Berger did not recognize Himmler’s voice listening to the tape.
- In 1993, Robert Wolfe, supervisory archivist for captured German records at the National Archives admitted that a more precise translation of 'ausrottung' would be extirpation or tearing up by the roots. Wolfe also pointed out that in Himmler's handwritten notes for the speech, that Himmler used the term, 'judenevakuierung', or evacuation of the Jews, not 'extermination'.
- the complete lack of physical evidence to support the false assertions
- the complete lack of orders for the assumptions being made
Nowhere does Himmler talk about extermination of Jews.
Hannover
the link works fine:
http://codoh.com/library/document/230 [link fixed by M1]
stop ignoring my points, again:
- This alleged speech, as German judge Staeglich has adroitly pointed out, is a hodgepodge of non-sequitors, nonsense, and re-worked text.
see: http://codoh.com/library/document/230
- There are missing pages, retyped pages by different hands, even repaginated.
- Then we have a so called "secret" speech in front of thousands. Frankly the assertions about it are laughable.
- Yivo (Yiddish Scientific Institute) of New York was very active in the Rosenberg Ministry to process documents for submittal to the Nuremberg trials.
- members of the audience like SS-OGruF Gottlob Berger denied that Himmler was talking about the extermination of the Jews at all.
- Also questionable is the alleged tape recording of the speech. To have a speech with such alleged secret content recorded on tape? Right. SS General Berger did not recognize Himmler’s voice listening to the tape.
- In 1993, Robert Wolfe, supervisory archivist for captured German records at the National Archives admitted that a more precise translation of 'ausrottung' would be extirpation or tearing up by the roots. Wolfe also pointed out that in Himmler's handwritten notes for the speech, that Himmler used the term, 'judenevakuierung', or evacuation of the Jews, not 'extermination'.
- the complete lack of physical evidence to support the false assertions
- the complete lack of orders for the assumptions being made
Nowhere does Himmler talk about extermination of Jews.
Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
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