The Devil Next Door (Netflix doc on Demjanjuk)

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Hektor
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Re: The Devil Next Door (Netflix doc on Demjanjuk)

Postby Hektor » 2 years 6 months ago (Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:15 pm)

Mortimer wrote:Elizabeth Loftus was a specialist in False Memory Syndrome and was asked by the defense to speak in court on their behalf. After consideration she declined and decided to put Jewish sectarian interests ahead of the fact that an innocent man might be hanged.
https://codoh.com/library/document/my-c ... havior/en/
This article is part of a series on False Memory Syndrome.
https://codoh.com/library/series/false- ... ndrome/en/


False memory would be the one thing. There is indeed the possibility of witness making false statements, while they themselves somehow believe them to be true. Just imagine being part of a community where this kind of stories circulates all day. The more susceptible characters will absorb this and believe it as the holy truth. That doesn't exclude liars driven by irrational hate, though. Or by ambition to become famous.

My take is that some of the "Holocaust witness" in Lanzmann's Shoah are pathological liars (got to review the thing again to tell you who and why). They may have had some connotation to concentration camps in Germany and Poland or be present in territories previously occupied by the USSR, but listening into their stories (not only what they tell, but how they tell it, mimic, intonate it) a view things became apparent to me.

Also funny is Lanzmann being invite for some cake and coffee by some former SS-men that were supposedly perpetrators of the Holocaust. I just wonder, did this guy want to be caught out? Did he try to test how far he can go with the narrative, before people will notice something.

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Re: The Devil Next Door (Netflix doc on Demjanjuk)

Postby Hektor » 2 years 6 months ago (Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:39 pm)

borjastick wrote:
HMSendeavour wrote:
borjastick wrote:When they couldn't get him for one crime they tried again for another crime committed at another camp. Laughable if it weren't true.

....

In August 1977, Demjanjuk was accused of having been a Trawniki man.....
According to historian Lawrence Douglas, in spite of serious missteps along the way, the German verdict brought the case "to a worthy and just conclusion".[10] After the conviction, Demjanjuk was released pending appeal. He lived at a German nursing home in Bad Feilnbach,[11] where he died on 17 March 2012.[12] Having died before a final judgment on his appeal could be issued, by German law Demjanjuk remains technically innocent.[13] In January 2020 a photograph album by Sobibor guard Johann Niemann was made public; two photos may show Demjanjuk with other guards at Sobibór.


May show Demjanjuk. Or may be not. Seems those fanatics are losing any scientific rigour, when dealing with the issue.
Demjanjuk is as innocent, perhaps even more, than his persecutors.


As for Johann Niemann, here is some USHMM talk on him.


How nice that the dead can't talk back.

How about those being prison camps and people joined there for employment opportunities, just as prison guards to in the US and Israel as well?

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Re: The Devil Next Door (Netflix doc on Demjanjuk)

Postby Vukdar » 2 years 4 months ago (Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:38 pm)

You guys should read user reviews on Imdb about this film. They say it is inaccurate because they have wrong maps, and that death camp was not Polish but German. :)

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Re: The Devil Next Door (Netflix doc on Demjanjuk)

Postby Archie » 2 years 4 months ago (Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:23 pm)

Vukdar wrote:You guys should read user reviews on Imdb about this film. They say it is inaccurate because they have wrong maps, and that death camp was not Polish but German. :)


That has to be some sort of campaign. Maybe it's different in Europe, but among Americans I can tell you approximately 0% would even notice any controversy.

In Poland, there seems to be some touchiness here because they want to be seen as Nazi victims and they don't want to be assigned any blame for the so-called holocaust. I remember at some ceremony or something Obama made a reference to the "Polish" death camps and he had to hastily apologize. A few years ago the Jews started trying to shake down Poland for land reparations which adds a financial incentive as well.

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Re: The Devil Next Door (Netflix doc on Demjanjuk)

Postby Vukdar » 2 years 4 months ago (Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:35 pm)

Archie wrote:That has to be some sort of campaign. Maybe it's different in Europe, but among Americans I can tell you approximately 0% would even notice any controversy.


To me it is very frustrating that those who think this film is a lie do not see that it is a lie because innocent man is being convicted. They argue about who built those death camps. I would be satisfied if only one person said "wait a minute..."

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Re: The Devil Next Door (Netflix doc on Demjanjuk)

Postby Sannhet » 2 years 4 months ago (Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:28 am)

I watched the first episode on the recommendation of this thread.

There is some strong overlap between The Accountant of Auschwitz (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12757) (2018) and this Devil Next Door (2019). Both are not just attempts to rub the genie-lamp of "long-hiding Nazis finally brought to justice" and related themes. They share more in common than that: Both heavily feature some of the same characters, the FBI's Eli Rosenbaum and Lawrence Douglas (both Jewish) are commentators throughout "Accountant" and are also here on "Devil Next Door." Both "Accountant" and "Devil" even prominently feature the Demjanjuk case itself -- which is a surprise in the case of "Accountant" given its nominal subject is Oskar Gröning, about whom they work hard to avoid and go into a long tangent about Demjanjuk.

I write this after only seeing the first portion of "Devil Next Door," but I will dare to say that in some ways "Accountant of Auschwitz" and "Devil Next Door" are even the same documentary. Just with different lengths, slightly different focuses, and some different (some same) talking-heads. But editorially there is also a detectable difference in that "Devil" gives far more White-Christians a voice than does "Accountant;" almost all of the commentators/interviewees in "Accountant" are Jewish (and low-info viewers watching "Accountant" will not know they are seeing a cast of Jews all reinforcing each other's views, though they might suspect something like that with what how they all gang up on Eva Mosez Kor). But we see anti-communist Mark O'Connor and Pat Buchanan others depicted fairly sympathetically and in their own words.

In a word, in "Devil," we see the voices of what we can, in general terms, call the Anti-Holocaust side. These are not Revisionists, as such -- or at least I noticed no mention of actual Revisionists/Deniers or Revisionist arguments so far, though scholarly Revisionism was certainly current and making breakthroughs during the period in question (and as for Pat Buchanan we know he was a Holocaust-disbeliever about this time). But nevertheless we see people against this emerging hegemonic Holocaust-as-social-force, standing up against it to the extent they are able. The documentary frames this as Ukrainians in America supporting a Ukrainian, which is a part but not all of the pro-Demjanjuk side. There were people against this new prime-directive for Western culture and politics, this hegemonic social force, the quasi-religion that demands sacrifices in blood, from the start and through the years it was making gains by leaps and bounds.

This is one part of Holocaust Studies that I sense is neglected, a kind of social history of the anti-Holocaust side. I have to use the phrasing "anti-Holocaust" because I know of no better phrase; they were not necessarily Revisionists.

__________________

Primary-source footage on 1980s-era Holocaust-pusher vs. anti-Holocaust public attitudes

As I say, one of the most interesting things to see in "Devil Next Door" is footage of contemporary reaction to events going on. There is too much to list. The scenes of people reacting at the time flash by and are used by the documentarians to build mood more than anything. Few would be expected to examine them closely. But really the 1980s/90s Holocaust protest footage and film clips are "primary sources" in the Holocaust-as-social-phenomenon.

Most of us now were either not either alive or not cognizant of events in the 1980s when the Demjanjuk arrest happened and so on. One is struck by the big difference in reactions you would get later. There was pushback. All adults or even late teenagers during the years Demjanjuk was in the news in the 1980s will have remembered the time before the breakthrough of the Holocaust in the late 1970s. But they got steamrolled. Those of us who came later had no personal memory of it.

One representative case which for some reason particularly struck me was a brief clip from a Cleveland News Channel 5 reporter talking about the case on a local evening news broadcast. The anchor is identified on screen as Roger Morris. Hardly any kind of big player in the grand scheme of history and politics, much less the 'Big H' historical drama. In fact there is very little on Roger Morris the Cleveland local-TV-newsman online. All I find is a 1980s-era novelty board game featuring the personalities of this local-news station; his face survives on one of the cards:
Roger Morris - WEWS news anchor Cleveland 1970s-80s.jpg

I think it's fair to expect that what this news-reader says represents something like mainstream centrist opinion of the time. Morris says this:

What we are looking at is a case which may be unprecedented in international scope. A naturalized American charged with war crimes in a 28-page indictment. It is the biggest case since Adolf Eichmann was convicted back in 1962, and it may well be the last war-crimes case to come out of the Holocaust.

The documentary gives no date to the broadcast but judging from the "26-page indictment" clue we can date it to on or shortly after September 29, 1986. That day, an Associated Press story mentions that Israel had, the same day, indicted Demjanjuk (by then in their custody) with an indictment of 26 pages in length. (This was nine years after the first mention anywhere by anyone of Demjanjuk as a potential war-criminal "hiding" in Cleveland, an AP story dated late August 1977.)

WEWS ABC Channel 5's Roger Morris news segment on Demjanjuk says the upcoming mid-1980s trial "may well be the last war-crimes case to come out of the Holocaust." Yes, it feels highly ironic viewed from 2021 and not just because Demjanjuk was subject himself was subject to several trials, and also not just because the cavalcade of Nazi war-criminals were still being "hunted" and put on trial even (absurdly) well into the 2010s and presumably ongoing now in the 2010s.

I think this little statement is a useful piece of primary-source evidence (among many) on people's attitudes towards the Holocaust at the time. 'Centrist' opinion in 1986 really believed the Holocaust was all over, some loose ends tied up but never to be reopened again. What a surprise they would be in for that thirty-five years later, there are still Nazi trials going on! Even in the 2010s the exact same headlines were still coming out: "New Nazi trial! This one may be the last WWII war-crime trial we ever see." The larger surprise, or lesson, is that the Holocaust cemented its cultural hegemony. People did not expect it. Anyone who predicted in the mid-1980s that "this Holocaust talk is only going to get bigger and bigger and they'll still be trying men in their nineties in the 2010s and 2020s," would be dismissed as a crazy crank.

The documentarians cut to some lengthy scene-setting and mood-music after newsman Roger Morris' line. They, too, must have sensed the importance of the line, though maybe they missed the irony.

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Re: The Devil Next Door (Netflix doc on Demjanjuk)

Postby borjastick » 2 years 4 months ago (Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:55 am)

The persecutions of Demjanuk and Groning and indeed Ursula was never about truth or justice. They are or were solely about magnification, publicity and momentum of the holocaust scam.

The 6m gas chamber deaths gravy train must be made to carry on. Never ending the flow of guilt money and power to those of a certain persuasion.

It's a scam just as the current climate change intimidation is a scam.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician


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