1944 plot against Hitler, yet nothing about 'extermination'

[Hannover]

The attempted coup against Hitler is well known, but what's never said is that none of the plotters were aware of information on 'gas chambers' or 'a program of extermination'.

This is important because some the plotters consisted of those from Germany's top intelligence office, Abwehr.

It's also significant that the plotters were in touch with the Allies and no such 'gas chambers/'extermination' claims were made.

- Hannover

[Richard Perle]

How do we know that they weren't aware? I don't see how the information would have been of use in the coup.

[Hannover]

Since they were trying to gain support for their coup, that sort of info. would have been very useful in gaining support from others and the Allies, who had contact with them.

Not all those contacted actually participated in the attempted coup, and were free to talk. Yet nothing.

example of contact:
http://fpp.co.uk/Himmler/interrogations ... GG171.html

Also, in Rothfel's book, 'The German Opposition to Hitler', there is no mention that the plotters claimed 'exterminations/gassings'.


- Hannover

[Hotzenplotz]

How do we know that they weren't aware? I don't see how the information would have been of use in the coup.

According to Wolfgang Venohr, a German journalist, Stauffenberg, leading figure of the attempted coup, wrote down 10 theses on Germany's situation and the need for a coup shortly after d-day (6th of June 1944; the attempted coup was on 20th of July).

http://www.swg-hamburg.de/Deutschland_J ... enberg.pdf

The text is referenced only thrice at google, and it seems that this journalist might be what mainstream politicians in Germany call a right-wing extremist. But anyway, Staufenberg's theses read:

1. Bei Fortsetzung des gegenwärtigen Kurses ist eine Niederlage und Vernichtung der materiellen und blutsmäßigen Substanz unausbleiblich.
2. Das drohende Verhängnis kann nur durch Beseitigung der jetzigen Führung abgewendet werden.
3. Die vom Nationalsozialismus vertretenen Ideen sind großenteils richtig gewesen; nach der Machtergreifung jedoch ins Gegenteil verkehrt worden.
4. Die neue Führerschicht stellt in der Voranstellung eigensüchtiger Interessen, im Aufkommen von Korruption und Bonzentum eine Herrschaft der Minderwertigen dar.
5. Ein wesentliches Moment für die schlechte Gesamtlage ist in der Behandlung der besetzten Länder zu sehen.
6. Den Anfang vom Ende der gesamten militärischen Entwicklung bildet der russische Feldzug, der mit dem Befehl zur Tötung aller Kommissare begonnen hat und mit dem Verhungernlassen der Kriegsgefangenen und der Durchführung von Menschenjagden zwecks Gewinnung von Zivilarbeitern fortgesetzt wurde.
7. Die Führung ist nicht in der Lage gewesen, den Zweifrontenkrieg zu vermeiden.
8. Das derzeitige Regime hat kein Recht, das ganze deutsche Volk mit in seinen Untergang hineinzuziehen.
9. Nach einem Regimewechsel ist es das wichtigste Ziel, dass Deutschland noch einen im Spiel der Kräfte einsetzbaren Machtfaktor darstellt und dass insbesondere die Wehrmacht in der Hand ihrer Führer ein verwendbares Instrument bleibt.
10. In Ausnutzung der Gegensätze im feindlichen Lager bestehen verschiedene politische Möglichkeiten. Diese werden jedoch mit jeder weiteren militärischen Schwächung, insbesondere mit einem Wirksamwerden der Invasion, geringer. Daher ist rasches Handeln erforderlich."

"2. The looming disaster can only be averted by disposing of the current leadership. [...]
5. The leadership was not capable of avoiding a war on two fronts.
6. The beginning of the end of the whole military development was the campaign against Russia, which began with the order to kill all commissars and ended with the deliberate starving of prisoners of war and manhunts with the purpose of procuring workers."
(Sorry for the pathetic translation)

That is to say, Stauffenberg criticizes the behaviour of the German army in Russia -- his 10 theses apparently deal with the wrong-doings of the Nazi-regime. They basically seem to be list of accusations, and one would expect Stauffenberg, who was planning a coup, to bring up the very worst of the Nazis' crimes. But he does not mention anything about genocide, and doesn't refer to Jews at all. And the German army's misbehaviour in Russia seems to be less important than the leadership's strategical mistakes (see point 5).

Good point, Hannover.

[Richard Perle]

Yes, good point.

It wouldn't surprise me if the H Industry spun this as a sign that Staufenberg was an anti-semite who didn't care about the Jews.

[nny]

The attempted coup against Hitler is well known, but what's never said is that none of the plotters were aware of information on 'gas chambers' or 'a program of extermination'.

This is important because some the plotters consisted of those from Germany's top intelligence office, Abwehr.

It's also significant that the plotters were in touch with the Allies and no such 'gas chambers/'extermination' claims were made.

- Hannover

Ahh the wonderful Abwehr. Churchill bragged that every German spy that was sent to England was turned against Germany and forced to feed back false information, not one of them mentioned gas chambers or a 'final solution' that involved murder.

Wilhelm Canaris, head of the Abwehr was a traitor to his country, fed information to the Allies throughout the war and was involved in the plot. He gave the allies information about the execution of a number of (French soldiers I believe) in Africa and a number of other events he found distasteful (rightfully so), but he never mentioned a deliberate plan to exterminate the Jews or gas chambers. The Poles were able to develop the Ultra machine which made decoding of all German radio messages possible, not one single time did they receive a transmission mentioning gas chambers or the mass murder of jews. Canaris wasn't the only traitor in the Abwehr either, and still no information on gas chambers or the 'final solution of extermination'.

Funny thing was, even Anne Frank wrote in her "diary" that she was aware of gas chambers in operation through British propoganda radio. How strange. Even stranger that a 15 year old girl with no immediately recognizable skills would survive Auschwitz while hundreds of thousands of able bodied men would be 'immediately gassed'.

Perplexing.

[Hektor]

The attempted coup against Hitler is well known, but what's never said is that none of the plotters were aware of information on 'gas chambers' or 'a program of extermination'.

This is important because some the plotters consisted of those from Germany's top intelligence office, Abwehr.

It's also significant that the plotters were in touch with the Allies and no such 'gas chambers/'extermination' claims were made.

- Hannover

I was thinking about this for a while, too. What did they 20July-plotters know about the Holocaust? As it seems: NOTHING!

Hotzenplotz link is obsolete now, but here is an active one:
http://www.deutschlandjournal.de/Deutsc ... enberg.pdf

[Scotsman]

The attempted coup against Hitler is well known, but what's never said is that none of the plotters were aware of information on 'gas chambers' or 'a program of extermination'.

This is important because some the plotters consisted of those from Germany's top intelligence office, Abwehr.

It's also significant that the plotters were in touch with the Allies and no such 'gas chambers/'extermination' claims were made.

- Hannover

I was thinking about this for a while, too. What did they 20July-plotters know about the Holocaust? As it seems: NOTHING!

Hotzenplotz link is obsolete now, but here is an active one:
http://www.deutschlandjournal.de/Deutsc ... enberg.pdf

This was another thing that convinced me the Big H was BS - who was a major part of the July Plot? Arthur Nebe, who looms large in the Holocaust story.

[Mkk]

In this video, a defendant mentions "many murders" In Poland - though briefly and this was probably referring to ethnic Poles (he talks about the changing attitude towards Poland when otherwise he would surely have said Jews)



Stauffenberg wrote:

6. The beginning of the end of the whole military development was the campaign against Russia, which began with the order to kill all commissars and ended with the deliberate starving of prisoners of war and manhunts with the purpose of procuring workers."

This (the Commissar order, the huge death rate among Soviet POWs and the employment of large amounts of Soviet workers in Germany) are all facts of history, but why no mention of the supposedly much larger killing of Jews?

[Breker]

Mkk:

In this video, a defendant mentions "many murders" In Poland - though briefly and this was probably referring to ethnic Poles (he talks about the changing attitude towards Poland when otherwise he would surely have said Jews

1. We have to ask who was supposedly responsible for these alleged "many murders" that the accused is obviously using as a defense for his part in treason. It's well none that the communists slaughtered many and the result was that some Poles took revenge. 2. Can such a defendant be credible?

Stauffenberg;

The beginning of the end of the whole military development was the campaign against Russia, which began with the order to kill all commissars and ended with the deliberate starving of prisoners of war and manhunts with the purpose of procuring workers."

Yes, there was a 'commissar order' and as for "deliberate starving", one must ask why bother? If the intent was to let them die, then why not just execute them and save the resources and manpower involved in keeping them around until they 'starved". Makes little sense. Stauffenberg is simply making rationalizations for his part in treason.

Mkk:

This (the Commissar order, the huge death rate among Soviet POWs and the employment of large amounts of Soviet workers in Germany) are all facts of history, but why no mention of the supposedly much larger killing of Jews?

Certainly the death rate of POWs, all POWs on both sides was high. No argument there. No mention of mass killing of Jews because there was none.
B.

[Hektor]

That's right, It's plausible for them to bend things like the commissary order or shooting of partisans in their favor for purposes of their defense. But why use it, when mass-gassing of deported Jews will give them an even stronger case (in line with the rationale of atrocities the regime is blamed for)?

Good observation, Mkk.

[hermod]

Since they were trying to gain support for their coup, that sort of info. would have been very useful in gaining support from others and the Allies, who had contact with them.

True. Even the very anti-Nazi Generalmajor von Tresckow, the prime mover of the July 20 plot, didn't talk about the 'Holocaust'. He thought Hitler had to "be cut down like a rabid dog" (1943) and he was infuriated by the Commissar Order, stating "If we don't convince the field marshal (Fedor von Bock) to fly to Hitler at once and have these orders (Commissar Order) canceled, the German people will be burdened with a guilt the world will not forget in a hundred years." (1941). But we are supposed to believe the 'Holocaust' wasn't a moral issue to him or at least something he would have used to justify his murder attempts on Hitler (he also attempted to murder Hitler in March 1943).

[Mkk]

Breker,

2. Can such a defendant be credible?

Who knows? Freisler obviously didnt give the defendant any opportunity to expand on his claim so we'll never know what he was really talking about, But it doesnt seem he was talking about Jews, which surely would have been item #1 when it comes to Poland, where most of the alleged Holocaust took place.

[Hektor]

...
Who knows? Freisler obviously didnt give the defendant any opportunity to expand on his claim so we'll never know what he was really talking about, But it doesnt seem he was talking about Jews, which surely would have been item #1 when it comes to Poland, where most of the alleged Holocaust took place.

Would be interesting to read what he and others of the "Resistance" did say in their personal writings.....

[Hannover]

Stauffenberg, it's indeed revealing that he mentions nothing of 'exterminating Jews' in his reasoning.

Also see some related comments here:
It's Oscar time, here come the propaganda movies.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of Truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.
The tide is turning.