The War That Had Many Fathers - The Documentary

[Mortimer]

THE WAR THAT HAD MANY FATHERS is a book on the origins of world war 2 by Gerd Schulze Rhonhof. It shows that the Allied propaganda image of Adolf Hitler as a warmonger filled with bloodlust is not true and that there were many factors that led up to the war breaking out. Because of the media blackout a lot of people don't know these facts. A documentary which is partly based on THE WAR THAT HAD MANY FATHERS is here.
http://archive.org/details/HitlersWar-W ... estVersion

[Hektor]

Not having downloaded it, is this in GERMAN or in ENGLISH?

[Mortimer]

Not having downloaded it, is this in GERMAN or in ENGLISH?

The link is to the English language version.

[Heimwehr]

For people understanding German: In this speech Gerd Schulze Rhonhof describes how he discovered forged material in British archives regarding the Nürnberger Prozesse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvwb5QPrmc0

The British replaced complete pages in German documents, not knowing that their paper material was of different physical quality than the German originals. This was leading to a different discolouring process of the aging papers, so every page they replaced can now be identified, but the originals seem to be lost... .

[Mortimer]

THE WAR THAT HAD MANY FATHERS is a book on the origins of world war 2 by Gerd Schulze Rhonhof. It shows that the Allied propaganda image of Adolf Hitler as a warmonger filled with bloodlust is not true and that there were many factors that led up to the war breaking out. Because of the media blackout a lot of people don't know these facts. A documentary which is partly based on THE WAR THAT HAD MANY FATHERS is here.
http://archive.org/details/HitlersWar-W ... estVersion

I have just finished reading the book on which the above documentary is based. It goes into a lot greater detail. Some interesting observations -
1) The author Gerd Schulze Rhonhof is of the opinion Operation Barbarossa was preventive - http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7999
2) Roosevelt entered into agreements with the British and French navies to support a blockade of Germany if war broke out. He did this without the consent of Congress.
3) Britain and France both stated they would declare war on the Soviet Union if that country invaded Poland which is what happened on September 17 1939 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland Neither country kept its word. In fact a few weeks after Poland's surrender Britain and France asked Stalin if he would like to join them and change sides by attacking Germany. The duplicity of the Anglo-French governments is beyond belief.
4) The author seems to be unaware of and does not mention the fact that in world war 2 France actually invaded German territory first -
The Saar offensive (1939)
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11241
5) Before signing the nazi-soviet pact Stalin informed the German government that it refused to acquiesce to Soviet intentions regarding the Baltic countries (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania) then it was no deal.
There are many more little known and understood facts regarding the lead up to world war 2. I recommend this book. http://www.amazon.com/1939-War-That-Man ... 44668623X/

[Hektor]

For people understanding German: In this speech Gerd Schulze Rhonhof describes how he discovered forged material in British archives regarding the Nürnberger Prozesse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvwb5QPrmc0

The British replaced complete pages in German documents, not knowing that their paper material was of different physical quality than the German originals. This was leading to a different discolouring process of the aging papers, so every page they replaced can now be identified, but the originals seem to be lost... .

Again for the German understanders.
Here is several speakers including Schultze Rhonhof (apparently spelled this why). I don't think it's the same speech, but content should be similar. Dr. Scheil elaborates on the prelude to Barbarossa.

For those that would like to argue this with re-educated Germans, here is a forum with opposing views (towards Scheil and Rhonhof):
http://www.geschichtsforum.de/f68/wie-k ... eis-48335/

[Mortimer]

German diplomat Karl Otto Braun comments on events that correlate with 1939 The War That Had Many Fathers -
http://codoh.com/library/document/2086/

[Werd]

3) Britain and France both stated they would declare war on the Soviet Union if that country invaded Poland which is what happened on September 17 1939 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland Neither country kept its word. In fact a few weeks after Poland's surrender Britain and France asked Stalin if he would like to join them and change sides by attacking Germany. The duplicity of the Anglo-French governments is beyond belief.

Some have questioned this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland

"The reaction of France and Britain to the Soviet invasion and annexation of Eastern Poland was muted, since neither country wanted a confrontation with the Soviet Union at that time.[86][87] Under the terms of the Polish-British Common Defence Pact of 25 August 1939, the British had promised assistance if a European power attacked Poland.[Note 8] A secret protocol of the pact, however, specified that the European power referred to Germany."

That also seems to be the consensus here.

Why did Britain and France not declare war against the Soviet Union when it invaded Poland in WW2?
http://history.stackexchange.com/questi ... en-it-inva

The political reasons of both France and Britain are well explained in other answers, so I just stick to the legal matter.

France was not legally obliged by any pact to attack Soviet Union or to send troops to Poland to help. The 1921 Franco-Polish treaty specified the extent of help, which amounted to keeping the communication lines free between France and Poland (France and her Eastern Allies, 1919-1925). The 1939 pact, already ratified on September 4, was strictly against Germany, and had no provisions against Soviet Union (Britain, Poland and the Eastern Front, 1939).

Britain, on the other hand, was legally obliged to attack Soviet Union, literally "at once" and to provide "all the support and assistance in its power", per the 1939 pact. There was no legal trick that allowed Britain to avoid this. Britain recognized Poland as a country, and the pact obviously didn't require Poland to be recognized by attacking enemy. The pact did not require Poland to declare war on attacking enemy. Moreover, ambassador Raczyński requested such help from Britain as soon as Soviet Union attacked, and Halifax declined without any meaningful reason (Britain and Poland 1939-1943: The Betrayed Ally). Halifax said, 'As regards Soviet aggression we were free to take our own decision and to decide whether to declare war on the USSR or not.' (Britain and Poland 1939-1943: The Betrayed Ally)

Edit: As Andy pointed out in his answer, the obligations of Britain were more blurred than the public realized, because of the British-Polish secret protocol accompanying the 1939 pact.

Another answer.

On August 25, two days after the Nazi-Soviet Pact, the Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland was signed. The agreement contained promises of mutual military assistance between the nations in the event either was attacked by some "European country". The United Kingdom, sensing a dangerous trend of German expansionism, sought to prevent German aggression by this show of solidarity. In a secret protocol of the pact, the United Kingdom offered assistance in the case of an attack on Poland specifically by Germany, while in the case of attack by other countries the parties were required to "consult together on measures to be taken in common". Both the United Kingdom and Poland were bound not to enter agreements with any other third countries which were a threat to the other.

This being said you have to think in layman's terms. The British and the French saw Germany as the "MAIN" threat to their dominance of Europe. The Soviet Union of that era was still regarded as a "big but backward" country that wasn't an impending threat to the European countries. Especially after Stalin's purges of the communist party and the Red army.

One must remember that twice during the twentieth century Britain AND France have declared war on Germany and not the other way around. One must see the trend here, of both of these nations in seeing Germany as the growing power and thus threat, in central Europe. As for the myopia regarding the Soviet Union's potential of dominationg half of Europe all I can say is that "NEED MAKES FOR STRANGE BEDFELLOWS".

And another answer.

The main problem was, that Poland and USSR were not in the state of war.

The Polish government believed that Soviets will stop the aggression and forbid Polish troops to fight against Russians. It was because of a non-aggression pact since the peace treaty of Riga in 1921. The Poland did not want to break this treaty. Every assistance requested by Polish government was to make Russians withdraw from Poland, not to make war against them. The British diplomacy failed (or did not take any actions, I can't remember), but it was not the only "success" of British diplomacy since militarization of the Rhineland.

Later then, because the diplomatic relations between Polish 2nd Republic and USSR were not broken, the Sikorski-Mayski agreement could be made, and POWs from Russian part of Poland could go through Iran and Afghanistan to British India and Palestine to Egypt to fight Germans.

The diplomatic relations were broken after the revealing of Katyń Massacre; allowing thus to Stalin make a puppet government in People Republic of Poland. For British government, the Polish one on exile was then not necessary because USSR was now one of the main Allies, much, much stronger than occupied Poland.

And personal note...

As I remember from (communistic) school, the Soviet action was named "intervention to protect working class and peasantry against German invasion". There we no photos of Soviet and German troops fraternising on the Polish territory, as "they were enemies". Officially, the USSR saved Polish people and was Germany's enemy since the very beginning (1939).

[Mortimer]

3) Britain and France both stated they would declare war on the Soviet Union if that country invaded Poland which is what happened on September 17 1939 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland Neither country kept its word. In fact a few weeks after Poland's surrender Britain and France asked Stalin if he would like to join them and change sides by attacking Germany. The duplicity of the Anglo-French governments is beyond belief.

Some have questioned this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland

"The reaction of France and Britain to the Soviet invasion and annexation of Eastern Poland was muted, since neither country wanted a confrontation with the Soviet Union at that time.[86][87] Under the terms of the Polish-British Common Defence Pact of 25 August 1939, the British had promised assistance if a European power attacked Poland.[Note 8] A secret protocol of the pact, however, specified that the European power referred to Germany."

That also seems to be the consensus here.

Why did Britain and France not declare war against the Soviet Union when it invaded Poland in WW2?
http://history.stackexchange.com/questi ... en-it-inva

The political reasons of both France and Britain are well explained in other answers, so I just stick to the legal matter.

France was not legally obliged by any pact to attack Soviet Union or to send troops to Poland to help. The 1921 Franco-Polish treaty specified the extent of help, which amounted to keeping the communication lines free between France and Poland (France and her Eastern Allies, 1919-1925). The 1939 pact, already ratified on September 4, was strictly against Germany, and had no provisions against Soviet Union (Britain, Poland and the Eastern Front, 1939).

Britain, on the other hand, was legally obliged to attack Soviet Union, literally "at once" and to provide "all the support and assistance in its power", per the 1939 pact. There was no legal trick that allowed Britain to avoid this. Britain recognized Poland as a country, and the pact obviously didn't require Poland to be recognized by attacking enemy. The pact did not require Poland to declare war on attacking enemy. Moreover, ambassador Raczyński requested such help from Britain as soon as Soviet Union attacked, and Halifax declined without any meaningful reason (Britain and Poland 1939-1943: The Betrayed Ally). Halifax said, 'As regards Soviet aggression we were free to take our own decision and to decide whether to declare war on the USSR or not.' (Britain and Poland 1939-1943: The Betrayed Ally)

Edit: As Andy pointed out in his answer, the obligations of Britain were more blurred than the public realized, because of the British-Polish secret protocol accompanying the 1939 pact.

Another answer.

On August 25, two days after the Nazi-Soviet Pact, the Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland was signed. The agreement contained promises of mutual military assistance between the nations in the event either was attacked by some "European country". The United Kingdom, sensing a dangerous trend of German expansionism, sought to prevent German aggression by this show of solidarity. In a secret protocol of the pact, the United Kingdom offered assistance in the case of an attack on Poland specifically by Germany, while in the case of attack by other countries the parties were required to "consult together on measures to be taken in common". Both the United Kingdom and Poland were bound not to enter agreements with any other third countries which were a threat to the other.

This being said you have to think in layman's terms. The British and the French saw Germany as the "MAIN" threat to their dominance of Europe. The Soviet Union of that era was still regarded as a "big but backward" country that wasn't an impending threat to the European countries. Especially after Stalin's purges of the communist party and the Red army.

One must remember that twice during the twentieth century Britain AND France have declared war on Germany and not the other way around. One must see the trend here, of both of these nations in seeing Germany as the growing power and thus threat, in central Europe. As for the myopia regarding the Soviet Union's potential of dominationg half of Europe all I can say is that "NEED MAKES FOR STRANGE BEDFELLOWS".

And another answer.

The main problem was, that Poland and USSR were not in the state of war.

The Polish government believed that Soviets will stop the aggression and forbid Polish troops to fight against Russians. It was because of a non-aggression pact since the peace treaty of Riga in 1921. The Poland did not want to break this treaty. Every assistance requested by Polish government was to make Russians withdraw from Poland, not to make war against them. The British diplomacy failed (or did not take any actions, I can't remember), but it was not the only "success" of British diplomacy since militarization of the Rhineland.

Later then, because the diplomatic relations between Polish 2nd Republic and USSR were not broken, the Sikorski-Mayski agreement could be made, and POWs from Russian part of Poland could go through Iran and Afghanistan to British India and Palestine to Egypt to fight Germans.

The diplomatic relations were broken after the revealing of Katyń Massacre; allowing thus to Stalin make a puppet government in People Republic of Poland. For British government, the Polish one on exile was then not necessary because USSR was now one of the main Allies, much, much stronger than occupied Poland.

And personal note...

As I remember from (communistic) school, the Soviet action was named "intervention to protect working class and peasantry against German invasion". There we no photos of Soviet and German troops fraternising on the Polish territory, as "they were enemies". Officially, the USSR saved Polish people and was Germany's enemy since the very beginning (1939).

In the 1920's the Polish army stopped the westward drive of the Red Army - http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/P ... ov_war.htm
So it must have come as a shock to the Anglo-French leaders when Poland surrendered in 1939. It is possible they may have been under the delusion the USSR would declare war on them in support of Germany thus their offer of an alliance beforehand. Naturally there wouldn't be anything about this in the treaty signed before the conflict started. It was simply a plan that arose out of the circumstances.
Anyway, nothing came of the offer to Stalin and if anyone questioned the Anglo-French governments they would simply issue an official denial the same way the Roosevelt administration issued a denial about their telling the Poles not to negotiate with the Germans over Danzig - http://codoh.com/library/document/2051/
It's hard to tell what goes on behind the scenes as many cabinet and diplomatic papers relating to the second world war have still not been released to the public. But bear in mind the British government has been known under the moniker of "Perfidious Albion" over the centuries because of it's duplicitous nature - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidious_Albion

[Hektor]

....
In the 1920's the Polish army stopped the westward drive of the Red Army - http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/P ... ov_war.htm
So it must have come as a shock to the Anglo-French leaders when Poland surrendered in 1939. It is possible they may have been under the delusion the USSR would declare war on them in support of Germany thus their offer of an alliance beforehand. Naturally there wouldn't be anything about this in the treaty signed before the conflict started. It was simply a plan that arose out of the circumstances.
Anyway, nothing came of the offer to Stalin and if anyone questioned the Anglo-French governments they would simply issue an official denial the same way the Roosevelt administration issued a denial about their telling the Poles not to negotiate with the Germans over Danzig - http://codoh.com/library/document/2051/
It's hard to tell what goes on behind the scenes as many cabinet and diplomatic papers relating to the second world war have still not been released to the public. But bear in mind the British government has been known under the moniker of "Perfidious Albion" over the centuries because of it's duplicitous nature - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidious_Albion

Something quite commonly ignored is the fact that Britain and France negotiated with the Soviet Union for a treaty (against Germany):
https://archive.org/details/CiencialaNa ... gust231939

Any takes on this?

[Mortimer]

Another good book which I would suggest people look at in conjunction with The War That Had Many Fathers would be The Forced War by David Hoggan - The Forced war by David L. Hoggan
Some background info on the author- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hoggan

[Mortimer]

Pakt Ribbentrop - Beck is the name of a book by Polish author Piotr Zychowicz. It is a "what if" scenario of possible events that may have occurred if Poland entered into an alliance with Germany against the Soviet Union which is what Hitler originally wanted -
http://riowang.blogspot.com/2013/02/cou ... itler.html
The Poles decided to enter into an alliance with Britain instead and were stabbed in the back by Churchill when he agreed to hand over Poland to Stalin at the Yalta conference in 1945.

[Hektor]

Pakt Ribbentrop - Beck is the name of a book by Polish author Piotr Zychowicz. It is a "what if" scenario of possible events that may have occurred if Poland entered into an alliance with Germany against the Soviet Union which is what Hitler originally wanted -
http://riowang.blogspot.com/2013/02/cou ... itler.html
The Poles decided to enter into an alliance with Britain instead and were stabbed in the back by Churchill when he agreed to hand over Poland to Stalin at the Yalta conference in 1945.

The British never went to war about Poland, that was a pretentious lie they used. If it really was war for Alliance with Poland, they'd declared war on the USSR as well, once they invaded Poland. They didn't and this was in line with the guarantee given to Poland. Which was solely directed against Germany.
https://archive.org/details/1944Memoran ... etProtocol
https://archive.org/details/BritishExcu ... WarCabinet

[Bellera]

That's a great thread, lots of useful informations. I advise you this page if you want to learn more about war.

[Mortimer]

Pakt Ribbentrop - Beck is the name of a book by Polish author Piotr Zychowicz. It is a "what if" scenario of possible events that may have occurred if Poland entered into an alliance with Germany against the Soviet Union which is what Hitler originally wanted -
http://riowang.blogspot.com/2013/02/cou ... itler.html
The Poles decided to enter into an alliance with Britain instead and were stabbed in the back by Churchill when he agreed to hand over Poland to Stalin at the Yalta conference in 1945.

The British never went to war about Poland, that was a pretentious lie they used. If it really was war for Alliance with Poland, they'd declared war on the USSR as well, once they invaded Poland. They didn't and this was in line with the guarantee given to Poland. Which was solely directed against Germany.
https://archive.org/details/1944Memoran ... etProtocol
https://archive.org/details/BritishExcu ... WarCabinet

The entire British Empire declared war on Germany because of its invasion of Poland. That includes Australia, Canada, Fiji, India, New Zealand, South Africa etc. Then in 1945 Churchill agrees to hand over Poland to Stalin yet the MSM still like to refer to the former British leader as a "great statesman". Nothing could be further from the truth. Even the History Channel has come out with a documentary on how Churchill stabbed the Poles in the back -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYJ1_RG2xS4