Did Ivan the Terrible Exist?

[fireofice]

Ivan the Terrible was a cruel guard described by supposed witnesses who supposedly did terrible things. John Demjanjuk was first accused of being Ivan the Terrible, but was then considered to be misidentified. After the fall of the Soviet Union, Soviet documents of interrogations of wachmen at Treblinka had them identifying a man named Ivan Marchenko as Ivan the Terrible. These documents played a significant role in the Israeli supreme court overturning Demjanjuk's conviction. However, Israeli prosecutors and other members of the court have claimed not to find these documents very convincing. From the Netflix documentary The Devil Next Door:

Michael Shaked: "When you enter into all the testimony of the wachmen at Treblinka about the operator, you have everything. You have tall, you have short, you have fat, you have thin, you have black hair..."

Eli Gabay: "These were wachmen who were questioned and then summarily killed. The weight that is to be given to those testimonies is very little."

So this leads to the conclusion (despite what the originators of these quotes intended) that neither Demjanjuk nor Marchenko were Ivan the Terrible. So who was? One revisionist theory could be that while Ivan the Terrible didn't do all the things attributed to him, he was still at least based off of a real person. But what if he's not? It appears to be very likely that this Ivan the Terrible was a fictional character that never existed.

[borjastick]

Ask yourself how many boogie men and demons have been actually identified in the claimed holocaust. Jews tell stories, they always have. Exodus? No, not really. No evidence for that one.

Nazis wanted to murder every jew they could get their hands on? Nah that one doesn't fly either.

6m dead in the holocaust? Personally I doubt if the figure is north of a million and likely much much less.

Gas chambers killing up to 20,000 a day. Where's the bodies?

400,000? Hungarian jews killed at Auschwitz in under two months? Another whopper.

A single jewish lady removing 2000 jewish children one at a time in her shopping wheelie bag saving them from non existent gas chambers. Doesn't sound likely and zero from any of the saved kiddies when they grew up to confirm it.

Mass experimental procedures and torture on twins by the thousand by the Angel of Death, Doctor Mengele who according to all the 'survivors' met every single one and they all survived his evil tinkering. The reality is very different I'd wager.

Who started and to this day owns and controls Hollywood (the mass production centre of stories and propaganda). Yes the same people who make up stories about Ivan the Terrible who in all likelihood never set foot on this planet. And when they couldn't find this mythical man they invented another recipient of the title, John Demjanuk.

Great story tellers one and all, them jews.

[DissentingOpinions]

If this particular Treblinka guard did exist, then it's likely he was either a former Communist who joined the National Socialists & his prior crimes while serving under Stalin earned him his name, or he was just a normal guy just doing a job. In this case, I would say the witness testimonies about him were false.

On the other hand though, "Ivan the Terrible" could also be a nickname for Demjanjuk, whose first name at birth was in fact Ivan.

[borjastick]

If this particular Treblinka guard did exist, then it's likely he was either a former Communist who joined the National Socialists & his prior crimes while serving under Stalin earned him his name, or he was just a normal guy just doing a job. In this case, I would say the witness testimonies about him were false.

On the other hand though, "Ivan the Terrible" could also be a nickname for Demjanjuk, whose first name at birth was in fact Ivan.

How many men called Ivan were in circulation in the eastern territories during that period would you think?

[Hektor]

If this particular Treblinka guard did exist, then it's likely he was either a former Communist who joined the National Socialists & his prior crimes while serving under Stalin earned him his name, or he was just a normal guy just doing a job. In this case, I would say the witness testimonies about him were false.

On the other hand though, "Ivan the Terrible" could also be a nickname for Demjanjuk, whose first name at birth was in fact Ivan.

That's the problem with "testimony". One can not really assess, whether it's true or not. And when this is an old story, "witnesses" will have communicated with each other via rumours on an issue. It then will seem as if the witness stories do confirm each other. That's indeed why the sensationalist testimony on Holocaust related issues is material for the garbage can. You can't establish anything with this - except, if you want to turn historiography into propaganda of course.

[DissentingOpinions]

With a subject as vast as the Holocaust, I only consider witness testimony to be valid if it's corroborated by other evidence & doesn't contain anything that's outright ridiculous. I don't deny that an Ivan the Terrible could have existed & that there may be contradictions between eyewitnesses, but such contradictions and exaggerations could be the result of psychological trauma these witnesses suffered(Let's be honest, having all your belongings stolen and being forced to permanently move somewhere else because of who you are isn't a pleasant experience, especially with the potential chaos). In either case, anyone who knew back then about this enigmatic character is probably either dead, or too old to remember anything.

[fireofice]

On the other hand though, "Ivan the Terrible" could also be a nickname for Demjanjuk, whose first name at birth was in fact Ivan.

Demjanjuk was drafted into the Soviet army and then got captured by the Nazis as a POW. It is highly unlikely that the Nazis would have let an enemy POW be a guard at any of their camps.

[Hektor]

On the other hand though, "Ivan the Terrible" could also be a nickname for Demjanjuk, whose first name at birth was in fact Ivan.

Demjanjuk was drafted into the Soviet army and then got captured by the Nazis as a POW. It is highly unlikely that the Nazis would have let an enemy POW be a guard at any of their camps.

I won't see that as a hinderance. POW's were released and also incorporated into the security apparatus. Where it becomes a problem for the narrative is that it is implausible to use foreigners at a place where they were engaging in physical extermination of people. Guard at a prisoner/concentration camp would however make perfect sense.

[Hektor]

Ivan the Terrible was a cruel guard described by supposed witnesses who supposedly did terrible things. John Demjanjuk was first accused of being Ivan the Terrible, but was then considered to be misidentified. After the fall of the Soviet Union, Soviet documents of interrogations of wachmen at Treblinka had them identifying a man named Ivan Marchenko as Ivan the Terrible. These documents played a significant role in the Israeli supreme court overturning Demjanjuk's conviction. However, Israeli prosecutors and other members of the court have claimed not to find these documents very convincing. From the Netflix documentary The Devil Next Door:

Michael Shaked: "When you enter into all the testimony of the wachmen at Treblinka about the operator, you have everything. You have tall, you have short, you have fat, you have thin, you have black hair..."

Eli Gabay: "These were wachmen who were questioned and then summarily killed. The weight that is to be given to those testimonies is very little."

So this leads to the conclusion (despite what the originators of these quotes intended) that neither Demjanjuk nor Marchenko were Ivan the Terrible. So who was? One revisionist theory could be that while Ivan the Terrible didn't do all the things attributed to him, he was still at least based off of a real person. But what if he's not? It appears to be very likely that this Ivan the Terrible was a fictional character that never existed.

Well, the story keeps on being peddled, when the Marchenko Lie can't be held up anymore they probably invent another character:


When they bring up a juicy horror story about a guard. 99% chance that this is made up through and through by compulsive liars that get the chance to draw some attention. Note the term "NAZI"... there. The guy technically couldn't even be a member of the NSDAP... But yeah, but lets call anybody "NAZI"... because that term is so handy... while it isn't even the name of the organization (essentially name calling) . And well. I think I know what this is actually a codeword for.