Skeptoid podcast on Holocaust Denial

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Skeptoid podcast on Holocaust Denial

Postby bug123 » 7 years 8 months ago (Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:54 pm)

Brian Dunning chose Holocaust Denial as the conspiracy theory to "debunk" this week. The comment boards are typical:
https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4485

FYI

[text added by Moderator1]
Holocaust Denial
Why some people think the Holocaust never happened, and what to do about it.
by Brian Dunning

Filed under Conspiracies, History & Pseudohistory, Logic & Persuasion
Skeptoid #485
September 22, 2015

There are some events in history so profound and personal that they govern the courses of lives even generations later. History tells us that a tenth of the 60 million human beings killed in World War II were Jewish civilians who were murdered for no reaon other than being Jewish. Decades later, some promote an alternative view, a "revisioning" as they call it; a view that claims these people did not die, but that it is a myth created by the Jewish people themselves in order to win unearned sympathy. Today we're going to take a look at Holocaust denial.

Let's say an intelligent person decides to sit down at the computer and spend a few hours making an honest and thorough assessment of the evidence, to decide whether the Holocaust happened, and if it did, whether it was really as big as 6 million. I'll tell you right now: by no means is that person necessarily more likely to conclude the Holocaust was real. For every piece of evidence one can find, thorough and well-reasoned counter arguments exist to contradict it, and are often easier to find. Complicating things further is that any given single piece of information, supporting either argument, can be fairly described as an out-of-context cherrypick. It's dangerous to assume that the Internet provides a consensus perspective.

I quickly grew conscious of this as I was planning how to frame this episode. My initial idea was to lay out what we know, and how we know it. Pretty basic. However, I have plenty of experience with anti-Semitism, having done episodes on the Rothschild banking family, the Zionist conspiracy, and other topics sure to attract the bigots, so I'm well aware of how the comments are likely to go on this episode. If I were to merely describe the evidence, the comments would be overloaded with contradicting claims so specific and diverse that it's virtually impossible to respond. So we will take a quick skim over some of that evidence, but my experience is that the more useful strategy in discussing this topic is to prepare the honest researcher for the broader task of being prepared for the incoming onslaught of pseudohistory, and be ready to recognize it for what it is.

History since World War II is filled with notable Holocaust deniers, from political leaders to armchair curmudgeons and authors and activists in between. Some have made Holocaust denial into their whole career, writing books and speaking to anyone who will listen. In many countries (most notably Germany and Israel) Holocaust denial is illegal, and the deniers often use this to claim oppression of free speech, or portray it as evidence of a conspiracy to cover up the truth. They frame themselves as courageous mavericks daring to challenge the orthodoxy. One author compares himself to Socrates:

In ancient Greece, Socrates became known as a wise man who continually asked troublesome and inconvenient questions. Ultimately it cost him his life. But his society, and all of subsequent history, reaped an immeasurable reward from his brave and relentless efforts.

In reality, historians and other scientists strive their entire careers looking for evidence that will change the paradigm, trying to make the big discovery. The idea of suppressing discoveries is completely antithetical to the existence of scientists and the scientific method, and everyone who follows them. So when we hear this claim being made, we should immediately become skeptical of the claimant. This author continues with his cries of suppression and censorship, even to the point of his foul Wikipedia edits being reverted:

Changes will be visible for a few hours, at most. At some point, an automatic 'restore' function will activate, erasing all unauthorized edits. So much for Internet freedom.

Most Holocaust deniers display all the characteristics of a crank, decrying accepted history as being bound by allegiance to a shadow cabal that requires conforming to the establishment viewpoint, while they themselves are the valiant rebels rescuing us from Big Brother, toiling under constant threat, their only compensation the gratification of having revealed the truth. Note that you'll never hear normal historians describe themselves or their own work in such terms; it doesn't occur to them, for one thing, because there is no Big Brother dictating how their research is supposed to go. That's a delusional invention of the ideologue.

Anytime you hear such language, you're almost certainly in the company of pseudoscience.

But at some point in any honest inquiry, it will become necessary to evaluate the evidence. Here are some of the most common points the Holocaust deniers will make, and what I hope is enough of a quick glance at each one to get you started if you want to seriously investigate any of them. The first point they often make:

There is no 'Hitler order' to exterminate the Jews.

True, but only in the sense that there's no one piece of paper saying "I order all Jews to be murdered, signed Adolf Hitler." The evidence that Hitler ordered the Holocaust, and that it was a fundamental of the Third Reich's strategy, is far more varied than one piece of paper, and it's vast. An excellent source is the book Hitler and the Final Solution by Gerald Fleming. You'll find it's so overwhelming that little room for doubt remains.
Witnesses have falsified or exaggerated their stories.

And if some have, that says nothing about the majority of testimony that is both reliable and thoroughly corroborated. This is a red herring: an irrelevant statement intended to distract attention away from what is relevant.

The fabled death camps of Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor, and Treblinka do not seem to actually exist.

These particular camps were all dismantled and razed by the Germans by 1943 as the Soviets advanced, and extermination activities were mainly been moved to Auschwitz-Birkenau. That they're no longer there is perfectly consistent with their documented history; if it's intended to suggest that they therefore must have never existed, it's a bit like saying last February must have never happened either. Kind of bizarre logic.

There's no evidence of mass graves.

Tell that to the Sonderkommandos, Jewish prisoners whose full-time job it was to dispose of the dead, much of which was exhuming and burning corpses. At Auschwitz, 900 Sonderkommandos were needed to keep up with the volume; imagine the size of such a work site. After the war, exhumation of the dead continued for more than a decade, work which is thoroughly documented.

The Zyklon-B gas was actually used for delousing, not for mass executions.

The Nazis bought vast amounts of Zyklon-B (German for cyclone), diatomaceous Earth or gypsum impregnated with hydrogen cyanide and a warning eye irritant. It was designed for fumigation of buildings and vehicles, and could also be used for clothing or orchards. Denialists say Zyklon-B wasn't comparably efficient as other poison gases available. Untrue, it certainly was; in fact hydrogen cyanide gas is what's used in gas chamber executions today. It was also widely available and inexpensive during the war, because of its popularity for industrial fumigation.

Gassing with diesel engine exhaust would not actually work.

Many Holocaust victims were killed in the back of trucks as they were transported from one camp to another to be cremated. The truck exhaust was simply piped into the back, and presto, a mobile gas chamber. Denialists claim this is impossible because there's not enough carbon monoxide in truck exhaust, only carbon dioxide, which isn't as harmful. The only way to come to this conclusion is truly to deliberately avoid or ignore basic and widely available facts. The astronauts in Apollo 13 would have died if they hadn't been able to jury-rig a device to scrub out the CO2, and it's easy to find plenty of examples of suicides accomplished by running car exhaust into the car with a hose.

Wartime air photos of Auschwitz show none of the alleged mass-burnings or cremations.

Simply not true and trivially disproven; the online transcript for this episode contains a link to an album of aerial photographs of Auschwitz showing those things in explicit detail, complete with the wartime labeling by the reconnaissance analysts.

The "6 million" number has no basis in fact.

This is the heart of much Holocaust denial: If it did happen, it was a far smaller number. But this number is not a guess, it's a calculation. 5.5 to 5.9 million is the best supported range. How do we know this? Arithmetic. The data comes from thousands of sources that far exceed the scope of this episode, and it's not all anecdotal and it's not accounted for by relocation. The lines of evidence include hard evidence like population and census data, plus more than 3,000 tons of German documents, as well as testimony from both sides, and all of these varied sources converge in the same range.

But if all these claims are so easily debunked, why is it so easy for people to believe them? Why do so many want to believe them? Anti-Semitism can account for only a part of Holocaust denial; perhaps the founding core of it, but it has spread considerably from there. Many who question it are simply honestly persuaded by reasoned-sounding arguments put forth. Pseudoscience, and by extension pseudohistory, can be very persuasive when wielded by those obsessed with it. Michael Shermer and Alex Grobman discuss the unassailable apparent expertise in their book Denying History: Who Says the Holocaust Never Happened and Why Do They Say It?

Most Holocaust deniers are very knowledgeable about very specific aspects of the Holocaust — a gas chamber door that cannot lock, the temperature at which Zyklon-B evaporates or the lack of a metal grid over the peephole on a gas chamber — so that anyone who is not versed in these specifics cannot properly question and answer their claims.

I couldn't. Very few could, at least not without some focused study on each specific point. People hear these claims, but very little to dispute them. Historians may know the history, but the pseudohistorians know their pseudohistory far better and often more passionately. Pseudohistory can be an insidiously easy sell.

On April 12, 1945, General Dwight D. Eisenhower visited the Ohrdruf concentration camp in Germany, the first liberated by American forces, along with generals Patton, Bradley, and others. The day was clear but cold, and absolutely still. It was a grim inspection; the Supreme Commander witnessed the worst of humanity's horrors with his own eyes. Eisenhower wrote of the experience in a number of letters, including the following words to General Marshall:

I made the visit deliberately, in order to be in a position to give first-hand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to change these allegations merely to "propaganda".

And sadly, "Zionist propaganda" is indeed precisely a term used by today's Holocaust deniers. Eisenhower had one tool in his power to combat this: he ordered every Allied soldier in the area who was available to also tour Ohrdruf so they too could bear witness. It's unfortunate that the same order cannot be handed down to those today who deny history.

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Re: Skeptoid podcast on Holocaust Denial

Postby Moderator » 7 years 8 months ago (Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:11 pm)

bug123:
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Re: Skeptoid podcast on Holocaust Denial

Postby Dresden » 7 years 8 months ago (Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:40 pm)

Hello, bug123, and welcome to the Forum!

bug123 said":

"Brian Dunning chose Holocaust Denial as the conspiracy theory to "debunk" this week. The comment boards are typical"

I read all of the comments; what do you mean by "typical"?.....can you give an example?

Where do you stand on the 'holocaust' issue?.....do you believe millions of Jews were exterminated in gas chambers?

Thank you! :)
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Skeptoid podcast on Holocaust Denial

Postby bug123 » 7 years 8 months ago (Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:49 pm)

Steve F wrote:Hello, bug123, and welcome to the Forum!

bug123 said":

"Brian Dunning chose Holocaust Denial as the conspiracy theory to "debunk" this week. The comment boards are typical"

I read all of the comments; what do you mean by "typical"?.....can you give an example?

Where do you stand on the 'holocaust' issue?.....do you believe millions of Jews were exterminated in gas chambers?

Thank you! :)


I'm skeptical of the gas chamber stories, but I'm not married to any one position. But, if someone provided a convincing argument of how hundreds of thousands gassed were at Auschwitz, I'll accept it. Maybe the total number of people transported to Auschwitz looks very circumstantial towards planned killing? Like the large Hungarian Jew transports? That's probably next on my list of things to study.

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Re: Skeptoid podcast on Holocaust Denial

Postby Dresden » 7 years 8 months ago (Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:56 pm)

Thank you for your reply, bug123!
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Skeptoid podcast on Holocaust Denial

Postby Review » 7 years 8 months ago (Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:38 am)

Maybe the total number of people transported to Auschwitz looks very circumstantial towards planned killing?


Why would that be ? Americans transported tens of thousands (? don't know the exact number) japanese to camps, too. Nobody has blamed them for having had extermination camps. Maybe only losers of wars get that honor ..

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Re: Skeptoid podcast on Holocaust Denial

Postby Creox » 7 years 8 months ago (Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:56 am)

I've never read a revisionist that states major camps never existed but that they were not extermination camps.

I've never seen evidence of any exhumations of supposed mass burials in any camps. One of the overwhelming pieces of evidence against the exterminationist story is a total lack of bodies anywhere in these supposed graves despite several attempts to find them.

Cyanide gas is/was used in modern chambers but those are for one person and hermetically sealed units with powerful fans to clear the chamber post execution. What was supposedly death chambers in these camps are nothing like that and would be a poor receptacle for death dealing in that manner.

Despite the charges that diesel exhaust would be deadly enough there is plenty of evidence that it would be a very poor choice to eliminate large amounts of people at once. And it totally ignores post mortem evidence of what these people would look like.

I would love to see the aerial evidence this chap is referring to. I've never seen one.

Using the Ohrdruf camp as evidence of 6 million Jews being killed is laughable for obvious reasons. We here know why there were so many emaciated corpses on the ground at the end of the war and so should this author. I find that very dishonest.

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Re: Skeptoid podcast on Holocaust Denial

Postby Dresden » 7 years 8 months ago (Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:11 am)

Brian Dunning says:

"There are some events in history so profound and personal that they govern the courses of lives even generations later"

[And there are propaganda lies so profound that they destroy the lives of millions of Germans and other Europeans for generations]

"History tells us that a tenth of the 60 million human beings killed in World War II were Jewish civilians who were murdered for no reaon other than being Jewish"

[History tells us nothing of the kind!.....it is Jewish control of the mass media and all other means of communication that tells us that easily refuted lie]

"Decades later, some promote an alternative view, a "revisioning" as they call it; a view that claims these people did not die, but that it is a myth created by the Jewish people themselves in order to win unearned sympathy"

[And to be immune to criticism so they can go on murdering Palestinians, destroying Western civilization and raping the nations of the world for trillions of shekels with impunity]

"Let's say an intelligent person decides to sit down at the computer and spend a few hours making an honest and thorough assessment of the evidence, to decide whether the Holocaust happened.....I'll tell you right now: by no means is that person necessarily more likely to conclude the Holocaust was real"

[If the person is a real truth seeker, s/he will almost certainly find the 'holocaust' to be a Hoax]

"For every piece of evidence one can find, thorough and well-reasoned counter arguments exist to contradict it, and are often easier to find"

[This is true]

"Complicating things further....."

[I didn't know anything was complicated yet]

".....is that any given single piece of information, supporting either argument, can be fairly described as an out-of-context cherrypick"

[That is total nonsense]

"It's dangerous to assume that the Internet provides a consensus perspective"

[Who cares about consensus?.....a thousand blockheads don't make one genius; nor do a thousand liars make falsehood true]

"My initial idea was to lay out what we know, and how we know it"

[But when you laid it out and looked at it, you said....."Wait a minute.....this nonsense will never stand the light of day in an open Forum where deniers are allowed to post comments]

"However, I have plenty of experience with anti-Semitism, having done episodes on the Rothschild banking family, the Zionist conspiracy, and other topics sure to attract the bigots, so I'm well aware of how the comments are likely to go on this episode"

[Exactly!.....the 'bigots' would blow your Hoax clean out of the water]

"If I were to merely describe the evidence, the comments would be overloaded with contradicting claims so specific and diverse that it's virtually impossible to respond"

[That's why Revisionists are threatened, persecuted, slandered and imprisoned; it's easier than responding to their arguments]

".....my experience is that the more useful strategy in discussing this topic is to prepare the honest researcher for the broader task of being prepared for the incoming onslaught of pseudohistory, and be ready to recognize it for what it is"

[Why do you have to "prepare" people?.....Why can't you just leave them alone and let them research on their own?.....Truth ALWAYS wins out over falsehood on a level playing field]

"History since World War II is filled with notable Holocaust deniers, from political leaders to armchair curmudgeons and authors and activists in between. Some have made Holocaust denial into their whole career, writing books and speaking to anyone who will listen"

[But they're all bigots, Nazis, anti --- "semites", pseudo-scientists and pseudo-historians]

"In many countries (most notably Germany and Israel) Holocaust denial is illegal, and the deniers often use this to claim oppression of free speech.....'

[Any rational person KNOWS it is oppression of free speech]

".....or portray it as evidence of a conspiracy to cover up the truth"

[It IS a conspiracy to cover up and suppress the truth.....the conspiracy is as obvious as a clown at a funeral]

"They frame themselves as courageous mavericks daring to challenge the orthodoxy"

[They are intelligent, heroic and dauntless; people like Vincent Reynouard, Sylvia Stolz, Ursula Haverbeck, and many others have sacrificed their careers, their freedom and sometimes their lives for the cause of truth]

"One author compares himself to Socrates"

[What author would that be?]

"In ancient Greece, Socrates became known as a wise man who continually asked troublesome and inconvenient questions. Ultimately it cost him his life. But his society, and all of subsequent history, reaped an immeasurable reward from his brave and relentless efforts"

[And society and all of subsequent history will eventually reap an immeasurable reward from the brave and relentless efforts of the Revisionists]

"In reality, historians and other scientists strive their entire careers looking for evidence that will change the paradigm, trying to make the big discovery"

[Nonsense!.....Almost all historians and high-level scientists are self-seeking cowards who have betrayed society;.....They have been blessed by Nature or God with superior minds that they should use to better society, but they have chosen to destroy society for their own personal comfort.....There must be a special pl.....well, you know how it goes]

"The idea of suppressing discoveries is completely antithetical to the existence of scientists and the scientific method"

[It is not antithetical to scientists because scientists are just people, but it IS antithetical to the scientific method]

"So when we hear this claim being made, we should immediately become skeptical of the claimant"

[Or you could call the prison and ask the authorities if you can interview the "claimant"]

"This author continues with his cries of suppression and censorship....."

[What author?.....you haven't named him yet.....Why are you afraid to name the Revisionist you are talking about?]

"even to the point of his foul Wikipedia edits being reverted"

[Wikipedia is heavily biased against truth]

"Changes will be visible for a few hours, at most. At some point, an automatic 'restore' function will activate, erasing all unauthorized edits"

[All or most Revisionist edits are "unauthorized"]

"So much for Internet freedom"

[Did Brian Dunning just say that?]

"Most Holocaust deniers display all the characteristics of a crank....."

[You mean like Mattogno, Graf, Kues, John Ball, Udo Walendy, Arthur Butz, Germar Rudolf, Fritz Berg and Robert Faurisson?]

".....decrying accepted history as being bound by allegiance to a shadow cabal that requires conforming to the establishment viewpoint....."

[Any historian who would say something contrary to the Jewish point of view on anything of importance, and especially the 'holocaust', would be defamed, slandered, and driven out of his profession]

".....while they themselves are the valiant rebels rescuing us from Big Brother, toiling under constant threat, their only compensation the gratification of having revealed the truth"

[Well.....yeah; that's a stupid way to put it, but, yeah]

"Note that you'll never hear normal historians describe themselves or their own work in such terms....."

[That's because they're perfectly adapted to the insane world of falsehood; that's what makes them appear to be "normal", while truthful historians in this Age of Insanity appear to be insane to the brainwashed sleeping masses]

".....it doesn't occur to them, for one thing, because there is no Big Brother dictating how their research is supposed to go"

[That is false]

"That's a delusional invention of the ideologue"

[No, it's the obvious truth]

"Anytime you hear such language, you're almost certainly in the company of pseudoscience"

[Typical Skeptoid "thinking"]

"But at some point in any honest inquiry, it will become necessary to evaluate the evidence"

[At "some point"?.....it is ALWAYS necessary to evaluate the evidence]


"But if all these claims are so easily debunked, why is it so easy for people to believe them?"

[They are not easily debunked; they have never been debunked]

"Why do so many want to believe them? Anti-Semitism can account for only a part of Holocaust denial; perhaps the founding core of it, but it has spread considerably from there"

[Yawn.....]

"Many who question it are simply honestly persuaded by reasoned-sounding arguments put forth"

[The Revisionist arguments are not just "reasoned-sounding", they really are reasoned arguments]

"Pseudoscience, and by extension pseudohistory, can be very persuasive when wielded by those obsessed with it"

[Only if the Pseudoscientists and pseudohistorians have control of the mass media and education; otherwise they are exposed to the light of day and they crumble like a house of cards]

"Michael Shermer and Alex Grobman discuss the unassailable apparent expertise in their book Denying History: Who Says the Holocaust Never Happened and Why Do They Say It?"

[Brian Dunning and Michael Shermer both admit that the Revisionists' expertise is unassailable]

"Most Holocaust deniers are very knowledgeable about very specific aspects of the Holocaust — a gas chamber door that cannot lock, the temperature at which Zyklon-B evaporates or the lack of a metal grid over the peephole on a gas chamber — so that anyone who is not versed in these specifics cannot properly question and answer their claims"

[It doesn't matter how well versed the Hoaxers are, they still can't answer the Revisionists' arguments; that's why it is against the law to question the Hoax]

"I couldn't. Very few could, at least not without some focused study on each specific point"

[Brian Dunning sounds like a Revisionist here]

"People hear these claims, but very little to dispute them. Historians may know the history, but the pseudohistorians know their pseudohistory far better and often more passionately. Pseudohistory can be an insidiously easy sell"

[That's funny :D ]

"On April 12, 1945, General Dwight D. Eisenhower visited the Ohrdruf concentration camp in Germany, the first liberated by American forces, along with generals Patton, Bradley, and others. The day was clear but cold, and absolutely still. It was a grim inspection; the Supreme Commander witnessed the worst of humanity's horrors with his own eyes. Eisenhower wrote of the experience in a number of letters, including the following words to General Marshall:

I made the visit deliberately, in order to be in a position to give first-hand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to change these allegations merely to "propaganda".

And sadly, "Zionist propaganda" is indeed precisely a term used by today's Holocaust deniers. Eisenhower had one tool in his power to combat this: he ordered every Allied soldier in the area who was available to also tour Ohrdruf so they too could bear witness. It's unfortunate that the same order cannot be handed down to those today who deny history"

[Eisenhower was witnessing what his own army did with the carpet bombing of all German cities.
Why didn't Eisenhower order forensic investigations of the 'gas chambers' if there were any?
Why didn't he order autopsies on corpses to find out if any were killed with poison gas?
Why didn't he mention 'gas chambers' in his memoires
?]
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Skeptoid podcast on Holocaust Denial

Postby Hannover » 7 years 8 months ago (Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:54 am)

Nicely done Steve.
I will be making new threads on Brian Dunning's highlighted points. We can do a Tim O'Neill on him.
Poor dumb Tim O'Neill, really took a beating here.
Next up, Brian Dunning.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Skeptoid podcast on Holocaust Denial

Postby Dresden » 7 years 8 months ago (Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:34 am)

Thank you, Hannover!
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Skeptoid podcast on Holocaust Denial

Postby Hektor » 7 years 8 months ago (Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:37 am)

Whenever I read about a self-proclaimed "Skeptic" all they do is defending (at least trying to) the main-stream or government position against alternative theories and criticism. This is really laughable, a true skeptic would challenge widely believed stuff and what the powerful proclaim.

That's of course no different in the case of the Holocaust, there Shermer and his mates fully support the mainline Holocaust nonsense.

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Re: Skeptoid podcast on Holocaust Denial

Postby Dresden » 7 years 8 months ago (Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:31 pm)

bug123 said:

"I'm skeptical of the gas chamber stories, but I'm not married to any one position.
But, if someone provided a convincing argument of how hundreds of thousands gassed were at Auschwitz, I'll accept it"

It's been seventy years now and there has never been a single autopsy report showing anyone died at Auschwitz by poison gas.
How long do you plan on waiting?

The Auschwitz 'gas chambers' have been thoroughly disproven by Fred Leuchter, Germar Rudolf, and many others, including the CODOH Forum here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4111

"Maybe the total number of people transported to Auschwitz looks very circumstantial towards planned killing? Like the large Hungarian Jew transports"

No, it's very circumstantial towards planned deportation and labor service, just like all the relevant German documents say.

Circumstantial evidence of a planned killing would be the presence of homicidal gas chambers and mass graves or industrial incinerators that could incinerate thousands of corpses a day; not swimming pools, libraries, post offices, orchestras, theater, kindergartens and maternity wards.
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Skeptoid podcast on Holocaust Denial

Postby hermod » 7 years 8 months ago (Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:07 pm)

bug123 wrote: Maybe the total number of people transported to Auschwitz looks very circumstantial towards planned killing? Like the large Hungarian Jew transports?


That's also circumstancial towards a large railway hub and mass transfers of populations and laborers. As Auschwitz/Oswiecim - at the Corner of the Three Empires (Galicia was at the junction of the Prussian, Russian and Austro-Hungarian former empires) - was one the largest railway hubs (if not the largest one) in Europe at that time, it seems logical that most trains converged on that place during WW2. That's just what hubs are about...

For info, Auschwitz had also been a dispatch center for laborers during WW1. A camp was built there by the Germans in 1916 for that very reason.

Most of Silesia was annexed to the German state of Prussia in 1742, except for four duchies. The duchy of Auschwitz was annexed to Galicia, a province which was given to Austria when Poland lost its independence in 1772 and the country was divided between Russia, Prussia and Austria. Western Galicia soon became known as The Corner of Three Empires: Russia, Prussia and Austria. The town known as Auschwitz, or Oswiecim or Oshpitzin, became a prime location for Jewish traders or merchants during the time that Galicia was part of the Austro-Hungarian empire.

[...]

When railroad lines were built in the 19th century, the little town of Auschwitz, at the junction of three empires, became the crossroads of Europe. There were 44 train lines coming into Auschwitz, making it at one time a larger railroad hub than Penn Station in New York City.

It was because Auschwitz was such an important railroad junction that a camp for migrant workers was built in a suburb of the town in 1916; seasonal farm workers from all over Europe were sent from Auschwitz to the large German estates. The migrant worker camp, with its beautiful brick barracks buildings, was the place that eventually became the Auschwitz I concentration camp.

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Auschwitz ... nau01.html
"[Austen Chamberlain] has done western civilization a great service by refuting at least one of the slanders against the Germans
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed.
"

Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925

Werd
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Re: Skeptoid podcast on Holocaust Denial

Postby Werd » 7 years 8 months ago (Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:02 am)

Nothing but another Steve Shives.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8297
These "skeptics" simply don't know what they are talking about.

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Re: Skeptoid podcast on Holocaust Denial

Postby Werd » 7 years 8 months ago (Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:16 am)

I found this bit hilarious from his podcast:
In reality, historians and other scientists strive their entire careers looking for evidence that will change the paradigm, trying to make the big discovery. The idea of suppressing discovery is completely antithetical to the existence of scientists and the scientific method and everyone who follows them.

But what did he say earlier?
In many countries...holocaust denial is illegal and deniers often use this to claim oppression of free speech or portray it as evidence of a conspiracy to cover up the truth.

So which is it? Why is it illegal at all? He never tries to explain why. So I guess by default that would mean the revisionists have the best explanation after all. This guy really is a fucking idiot. Read these words I took from his podcast.
This author continues with his cries of suppression and censorship. Even to the point of his foul wikipedia edits being reverted.

Most holocaust deniers display all the characteristics of a crank. Decrying accepted history as being bound by allegiance to a shadow cabal that requires conforming to the establishment viewpoint; while they themselves are the valiant rebels rescuing us from big brother. Toiling under constant threat, their only compensation, the gratification of having revealed the truth. Note that you will never hear normal historians describe themselves or their work in such terms. It doesn't occur to them. Because there is no big brother dictating how their research is supposed to go. That's a delusional invention of the idealogue. Anytime you hear such language, you're almost certainly in the company of pseudo science.

This guy just refuted his own shit. Revisionist historians are met with anti denial laws and normal historians are not met with any resistance. Well that DOES prove a conspiracy to keep revisionism out of the mainstream. Hence, any such pretensions to free speech in the academic world does not wash. Especially given these few examples:

1. Norman Finkelstein losing his tenure at DePaul for being too anti Zionist.
2. University of Illinois professor loses his job after anti-Israel tweets
3. The history student Joel S. Hayward who won a prize for the best history thesis of the year with his dissertation on research into this question received death-threats to him and his young daughters, his University was pressured to withdraw his PhD, all for acknowledging the credibility of certain aspects of these revisionist refutations of the currently accepted narrative. He later issued a retraction and an apology in order to be able to have a career in historical academia.
Page on reddit.com

More examples here:
What is the extent of scientific forensic proof for mass gassings
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2287
by been-there » Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:39 am

The scientific empirical paradigm is based upon falsifiability. A scientific approach seeks to test its own findings to see if any of its findings, conclusions or propositions can be falsified.
The situation with the allegation of mass gassings in Rheinhard camps is regretably that not only has the allegation been convincingly refuted based on chemical and scientific research BUT even more shameful is the treatment of those researchers. Rather than welcoming an empirically based refutation in the spirit of scientific advancement, such researchers have been persecuted, attacked, banned, smeared and even imprisoned for their research.

Regarding the chemical analysis refuting the possibility of mass-gassings in the alleged locations still existing, Germar Rudolf a qualified German Chemist has been persecuted and imprisoned.
A Lawyer’s Introduction to the Rudolf Case

Walter Lüftl a very highly qualified and distinguished Austrian Engineer was persecuted and stripped of his status and qualifications, for refuting key aspects of the mass-gassing allegation based on purely engineering considerations.
The Luftl Report an Austrian Engineer's Report on the "Gas Chambers" of Auschwitz and Mauthausen Concentration Camps

"stories of mass extermination of Jews in gas chambers at the wartime camps of Auschwitz and Mauthausen are impossible for technical reasons and because they are incompatible with observable laws of nature"

Regarding the documentary evidence, historian and researcher David Irving has been persecuted, physically attacked, threatened, smeared and imprisoned; the French Professor Robert Faurrison has been smeared and physically attacked for applying his expertise in textual analysis; the German Judge Wilhelm Stäglich (who had been stationed temporarily at Auschwitz) was persecuted and removed from his position, his pension revoked for applying his legal acumen to the allegation,.

THE AUSCHWITZ MYTH: A JUDGE LOOKS AT THE EVIDENCE by Wilhelm Staglich
http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres6/WSeng.pdf

The history student Joel S. Hayward who won a prize for the best history thesis of the year with his dissertation on research into this question received death-threats to him and his young daughters, his University was pressured to withdraw his PhD, all for acknowledging the credibility of certain aspects of these revisionist refutations of the currently accepted narrative. He later issued a retraction and an apology in order to be able to have a career in historical academia.
Page on reddit.com

Etc., etc., etc.

The facts seem to be that not only is there no conclusive and incontrovertable SCIENTIFIC evidence for the mass-gassing claim, BUT anyone who dares to attempt to falsify the claim using the scientific empirical paradigm has been subject to fallacious ad hominem attacks and career execution.
This is the shameful situation we are currently in. Where research by anyone attempting to confirm the mass gassing claim is funded, rewarded and praised even if their research is scientifically very poor. But anyone attempting a more critical examination is persecuted, attacked and even imprisoned.
E.g. the research at Treblinka by Dr Caroline Sturdy Colls, from Staffordshire University's Centre of Archaeology, is appallingly bad from an empirical perspective, yet it has received international documentary exposure and acceptance/approval. Whereas the amateur documentary made by Eric Hunt which exposes the errors, refutes and falsifies her pathetic findings receives absolutely zero mainstream coverage or approval.
https://archive.org/details/Treblinka_Archaeology_Hoax

SUMMARY:
The answer to the question asking for forensic scientific PROOF is, as far as I am aware, that there isn't any.
Not only that but ANY serious attempt to make genuine scientific research to falsify the allegation by qualified experts in their area of knowledge, is considered a thought crime which in many countries in Europe is punishable by law.

P.S.
The persecution and prejudice against European Jewry during WW2 was a undoubtedly a huge racist crime, one of the many perpetrated by all sides in that internecine European carnage and slaughter. The question asks only for scientfic evidence for the currently accepted holocaust narrative of MASS-gassings. In that light, the usual answers to this question for SCIENTIFIC proof are in themselves quite revealing. E.g. most answers from defenders of the holocaust-narrative start with this type of unscientific answer:
"This question is very strange, given that we have ample historical evidence from eye-witnesses..." etc., etc.
Obviously however many 'eye-witness' statements one can find, those can not be presented as "scientific proof". That would not be acceptable for the proposition that pigs can fly or that water flows uphill. This scientific attitude to witness statements remains the same whatever the proposition.
Thus, in the absence of definitive proof, and with the persecution of any scientific research into details that refutes aspects of that narrative, such answers demonstrate how the totality of the holocaust narrative can therefore better be regarded as an unscientific, psuedo-history, one that has become more of a compulsory quasi-religion.


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