Origin of the Wehrmacht testimonies

[grenadier]

The book Masters of Death by Richard Rodhes has several descriptions of german soldiers witnessing the alleged Einsatzgruppen´s mass murders.
A few examples;
1- At Belaja Cerkov lieutenant-colonel Groscurth of the 295 infantry division protested against the execution of nearly 100 jewish children – their parents had been executed earlier – by a sonderkommando led by obersturmfuhrer August Hafner. But Groscurth couldn´t save the children because according to the book it was sanctioned by fielmarshal Reichenau – 6º army commandant.
2- At Uman a lieutenant Erwin Bingel witnessed a massacre in september 1941. Bingel would have stated that his men almost went crazy after the shocking experience. A part of his story I find kind of fancy is he tells us the murder kommando came by transport aircraft – ju52 – did the “job” and left again by plane.

There are several others. The book isn´t very clear but it seems that these testimonies were given in a trial though which one it doesn´t say.
Can anybody help me with especific info on how these testimonies were obtained, by whom, how credible, etc.

Thanks in advance

[Hannover]

Where's the evidence?

Alleged testimony with no court transcripts to look at, no cross examination records, no physical evidence or mass grave in support (yet these guys supposedly were there, they would've known the exact location). The whole thing is a joke unworthy of debate.

Some nutball Believer makes a claim and we're supposed to believe it?

Great, I got Dr. Frankenstein's Diary for everyone to read too.

- Hannover.

[Maly Jacek]

The book Masters of Death by Richard Rodhes has several descriptions of german soldiers witnessing the alleged Einsatzgruppen´s mass murders.
A few examples;
1- At Belaja Cerkov lieutenant-colonel Groscurth of the 295 infantry division protested against the execution of nearly 100 jewish children – their parents had been executed earlier – by a sonderkommando led by obersturmfuhrer August Hafner. But Groscurth couldn´t save the children because according to the book it was sanctioned by fielmarshal Reichenau – 6º army commandant.
2- At Uman a lieutenant Erwin Bingel witnessed a massacre in september 1941. Bingel would have stated that his men almost went crazy after the shocking experience. A part of his story I find kind of fancy is he tells us the murder kommando came by transport aircraft – ju52 – did the “job” and left again by plane.

There are several others. The book isn´t very clear but it seems that these testimonies were given in a trial though which one it doesn´t say.
Can anybody help me with especific info on how these testimonies were obtained, by whom, how credible, etc.

Thanks in advance

Normally at the back of the book that should reference to specific archived records used.Bingle's information on Einsatzgruppen killings were not given as testimonies on any trial but rather recollections written while in Soviet captivity four years after alleged executions took place.As credible as memories of Hoess,written while imprisoned in Poland

[kk]

The 'model' of these confessions can be found in the infamous "Moscow
trials" of 1936-39.
When given the full stalinist treatment, even battle-hardened,
age-old party members would confess that they had copulated with Trotsky's
mother in the Red Square during the rush hour. There are many books that describe
the absurdity of these trials. (Koestler, Orwell,Soltzenitzyn etc.)
However, the same does not apply to the testimonies of the german
prisoners of war after 1945. Their confessions were spontaneous,
true and unaffected from the stalinist hospitality.
After all, most of them survived captivity and returned to Germany!

Or didn' they?

[Hektor]

...1- At Belaja Cerkov lieutenant-colonel Groscurth of the 295 infantry division protested against the execution of nearly 100 jewish children – their parents had been executed earlier – by a sonderkommando led by obersturmfuhrer August Hafner. But Groscurth couldn´t save the children because according to the book it was sanctioned by fielmarshal Reichenau – 6º army commandant.
...e

Walther Reichenau is said to have originated the Reichenau Befehl or Reichenau Erlass:

[Stempel: Geheim]

Oberkommando der Heeresgruppe Süd H.Qu., den 12.10.1941
Ia Nr. 2682/41 geh.


[Stempel: Zum Kriegstagebuch
Anlage Nr. 1032]


An

A.O.K. 11
A.O.K. 17
Pz.A.O.K. 1
Befh.rückw.H.Geb. Süd

nachr.: Mil.Befh. Ukraine
A.O.K. 6 (ohne Anlage).


In der Anlage gebe ich einen Befehl vom 10.10.41 des
Oberbefehlshabers der 6. Armee über "Verhalten der Truppe
im Ostraum" zur Kenntnis, mit dessen Inhalt ich mich voll einver-
standen erkläre.

Ich stelle zur Erwägung, im dortigen Befehlsbereich, sinn-
gemäße, den örtlichen Verhältnissen angepaßte Weisungen zu er-
lassen, sofern dies noch nicht geschehen ist. Mit Rücksicht auf
die bevorstehende Überwinterung und die geringen Kräfte in den
rückwärtigen Gebieten ist die noch vielfach anzutreffende Sorg-
losigkeit und Weichheit nach dem eigentlichen Kampf nicht tragbar.

- 1 Anlage -

[Unterschrift: von Rundstedt]


Nach Abgang:
Hr.Gr.Süd, Ia
Ib
Ic
Koluft
Gen.d.Pi.
Bv.T.O.
Nachr.Führer
Gen.St.Gr. z.b.V.
IIa (mit Neb.Abdr. für H.Qu.)
III
Bef.Stelle Süd - Gen.Qu.






Abschrift!


Armee-Oberkommando 6 A.H.Qu., 10. Oktober 1941.
Abt. 1 a - Az. 7




Betr.: Verhalten der Truppe im Ostraum.


Hinsichtlich des Verhaltens der Truppe gegenüber dem
bolschewistischen System bestehen vielfach noch unklare
Vorstellungen.

Das wesentlichste Ziel des Feldzuges gegen das jüdisch-
bolschewistische System ist die völlige Zerschlagung der
Machtmittel und die Ausrottung des asiatischen Einflusses
im europäischen Kulturkreis.

Hierdurch entstehen auch für die Truppe Aufgaben, die
über das hergebrachte einseitige Soldatentum hinausgehen.
Der Soldat ist im Ostraum nicht nur ein Kämpfer nach den
Regeln der Kriegskunst, sondern auch Träger einer uner-
bittlichen völkischen Idee und der Rächer für alle Besti-
alitäten, die deutschem und artverwandtem Volkstum zuge-
fügt wurden.

Deshalb muß der Soldat für die Notwendigkeit der harten,
aber gerechten Sühne am jüdischen Untermenschentum volles
Verständnis haben. Sie hat den weiteren Zweck, Erhebungen
im Rücken der Wehrmacht, die erfahrungsgemäß stets von
Juden angezettelt wurden, im Keime zu ersticken.

Der Kampf gegen den Feind hinter der Front wird noch
nicht ernst genug genommen. Immer noch werden heimtücki-
sche grausame Partisanen und entartete Weiber zu Kriegs-
gefangenen gemacht, immer noch werden halbuniformierte
oder in Zivil gekleidete Heckenschützen und Herumtreiber
wie anständige Soldaten behandelt und in die Gefangenen-
lager abgeführt. Ja, die gefangenen russischen Offiziere
erzählen hohnlächelnd, daß die Agenten der Sowjets sich
unbehelligt auf den Straßen bewegen und häufig an den
deutschen Feldküchen mitessen. Ein solches Verhalten der
Truppe ist nur durch völlige Gedankenlosigkeit zu
erklären. Dann ist es aber für die Vorgesetzten Zeit,
den Sinn für den gegenwärtigen Kampf wachzurufen.

Das Verpflegen von Landeseinwohnern und Kriegsgefangenen,
die nicht im Dienste der Wehrmacht stehen, an Truppen-
küchen ist eine ebenso mißverstandene Menschlichkeit wie
das Verschenken von Zigaretten und Brot. Was die Heimat
unter großer Entsagung entbehrt, was die Führung unter
größten Schwierigkeiten nach vorne bringt, hat nicht der
Soldat an den Feind zu verschenken, auch nicht, wenn es
aus der Beute stammt. Sie ist ein notwendiger Teil un-
serer Versorgung.


- 2 -


Die Sowjets haben bei ihrem Rückzug häufig Gebäude in
Brand gesteckt. Die Truppe hat nur soweit ein Interesse
an Löscharbeiten, als notwendige Truppenunterkünfte er-
halten werden müssen. Im übrigen liegt das Verschwinden
der Symbole einstiger Bolschewistenherrschaft, auch in
Gestalt von Gebäuden, im Rahmen des Vernichtungskampfes.
Weder geschichtliche noch künstlerische Rücksichten
spielen hierbei im Ostraum eine Rolle. Für die Erhaltung
der wehrwirtschaftlich wichtigen Rohstoffe und Produktions-
stätten gibt die Führung die notwendigen Weisungen.

Die restlose Entwaffnung der Bevölkerung im Rücken der
fechtenden Truppe ist mit Rücksicht auf die langen emp-
findlichen Nachschubwege vordringlich, wo möglich, sind
Beutewaffen und Munition zu bergen und zu bewachen. Er-
laubt dies die Kampflage nicht, sind Waffen und Muni-
tion unbrauchbar zu machen. Wird im Rücken der Armee
Waffengebrauch einzelner Partisanen festgestellt, so ist
mit drakonischen Maßnahmen durchzugreifen. Diese sind
auch auf die männliche Bevölkerung auszudehnen, die in
der Lage gewesen wäre, Anschläge zu verhindern oder zu melden.
Die Teilnahmslosigkeit zahlreicher angeblich sowjetfeindli-
cher Elemente, die einer abwartenden Haltung entspringt,
muß einer klaren Entscheidung zur aktiven Mitarbeit gegen
den Bolschewismus weichen. Wenn nicht, kann sich niemand
beklagen, als Angehöriger des Sowjet-Systems gewertet und
behandelt zu werden. Der Schrecken vor den deutschen
Gegenmaßnahmen muß stärker sein als die Drohung der um-
herirrenden bolschewistischen Restteile.

Fern von allen politischen Erwägungen der Zukunft hat der
Soldat zweierlei zu erfüllen:

1) die völlige Vernichtung der bolschewistischen Irr-
lehre, des Sowjet-Staates und seiner Wehrmacht;

2) die erbarmungslose Ausrottung artfremder Heimtücke
und Grausamkeit und damit die Sicherung des Lebens
der deutschen Wehrmacht in Rußland.

Nur so werden wir unserer geschichtlichen Aufgabe ge-
recht, das deutsche Volk von der asiatisch-jüdischen
Gefahr ein für allemal zu befreien.

Der Oberbefehlshaber:

gez. v. Reichenau
Generalfeldmarschall


Für die Richtigkeit der Abschrift:
gez. - Höttges
Leutnant
http://www.ns-archiv.de/krieg/untermens ... befehl.php

Some quotes of interest:
Das wesentlichste Ziel des Feldzuges gegen das jüdisch-bolschewistische System ist die völlige Zerschlagung der Machtmittel und die Ausrottung des asiatischen Einflusses im europäischen Kulturkreis....Der Soldat ist im Ostraum nicht nur ein Kämpfer nach den Regeln der Kriegskunst, sondern auch Träger einer unerbittlichen völkischen Idee und der Rächer für alle Bestialitäten, die deutschem und artverwandtem Volkstum zugefügt wurden.

Deshalb muß der Soldat für die Notwendigkeit der harten, aber gerechten Sühne am jüdischen Untermenschentum volles Verständnis haben. Sie hat den weiteren Zweck, Erhebungen im Rücken der Wehrmacht, die erfahrungsgemäß stets von Juden angezettelt wurden, im Keime zu ersticken.
So some remarks are made on "smashing the power structure of the judeo-bolchevik system", "soldier as avenger of a folkish idea", "just punishment on jewish subhumanity, etc.

[Hannover]

Hektor:
So there's nothing about shooting children or shooting non-combatant Jews.
Other than stating Reichenau's opinion of the 'sub-human' quality of Jews (actually 'low life' is probably a better translation than the loaded 'sub-human') and the fact that he felt they deserved the deprivations brought on them by war (which everyone in those regions felt), there is nothing to bolster the claims in the original post of mass shootings.

- Hannover

[Hektor]

What I take from this is that Reichenau advises to take a harder more brutal stance on partisans and their helpers then would be standard in, let's say, France. It all depends on what is necessary when dealing with a certain type of enemy. Of course Holocaustians and Communists as well as their useful idiots are going to read something completely different into that.

[Hektor]

Hektor:
So there's nothing about shooting children or shooting non-combatant Jews.
Other than stating Reichenau's opinion of the 'sub-human' quality of Jews (actually 'low life' is probably a better translation than the loaded 'sub-human') and the fact that he felt they deserved the deprivations brought on them by war (which everyone in those regions felt), there is nothing to bolster the claims in the original post of mass shootings.
...

It gets worse. The typed pages with the "order" don't have a signature.


https://www.bundesarchiv.de/oeffentlich ... 25.html.de
The source I had is exceptionally bad quality - the absence of the signature doesn't get clear. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Will check, if I can find out more.

[Hannover]

That piece of paper was typed by someone to mean whatever they wanted the gullible to believe. It would be laughed out of a legitimate court of law.

'Hey, I can type in German, so here we go!'

Typical & laughable 'holocaust evidence'.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of Truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.
The Internet is demolishing the false narrative promoted by arrogant Jewish supremacists. From the slaughter of the Palestinians to the lies of Auschwitz, the world is recognizing the dangers of Jewish supremacism.
The tide is turning.

[Kingfisher]

Lack of a signature doesn't mean it's fake. It looks as though it could well be the carbon copy, which would not receive a signature. Hannover is right, though, to say that in the absence of good evidence of provenance it is pretty worthless, as anyone could have typed it.

Isn't much of the evidence presented at Nuremberg of similar poor quality, and isn't that what first led many of us here to smell a rat?

[borjastick]

I am looking at Rhodes' Masters of Death now, it is on my bookshelf beside my desk. I read it with an open mind about 8-9 years ago and was deeply moved and depressed by it. Then I read a little more about the Einsatzgruppen and felt that Rhodes' book is total BS and propaganda.

It is full, page after bloody page, of claims, reports and so called official paperwork records of the processing of jewish groups and none of it has been proven with graves, forensic studies and anything more than the old 'witness' statements.

I cannot not recommend this book at all to anyone except the brain dead believers who have to cling on to 70 year old nonsense to support their notion of jewish suffering and the need for Israel.

[Hannover]

Lack of a signature doesn't mean it's fake. It looks as though it could well be the carbon copy, which would not receive a signature. Hannover is right, though, to say that in the absence of good evidence of provenance it is pretty worthless, as anyone could have typed it.

Isn't much of the evidence presented at Nuremberg of similar poor quality, and isn't that what first led many of us here to smell a rat?

An unsigned carbon copy, why would anyone make a copy of an unsigned document? It's not like this is supposed to be a form letter. Only those trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the naive would try this. Also note the lack of official stamps, a big deal with the Wehrmacht.
Indeed, Kingfisher, Nuremberg is one bogus 'document / affidavit' after the other.

Reichenau is also said to have been in charge of the bogus 'Babi Yar Massacre, which research has shown to be a non-event, it didn't happen.

And then, Reichenau died of illness before the end of the war, therefore anyone could construct whatever they wanted about him, dead men cannot defend themselves.

borjastick makes it clear:

It is full, page after bloody page, of claims, reports and so called official paperwork records of the processing of jewish groups and none of it has been proven with graves, forensic studies and anything more than the old 'witness' statements.

Hence the 'documentary evidence' is necessarily fake. Only liars use fake documents ..... and fake photos.

And as I said earlier

Where's the evidence?

Alleged testimony with no court transcripts to look at, no cross examination records, no physical evidence or mass grave in support (yet these guys supposedly were there, they would've known the exact location). The whole thing is a joke unworthy of debate.

Some nutball Believer makes a claim and we're supposed to believe it?

Great, I got Dr. Frankenstein's Diary for everyone to read too.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of Truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.
The tide is turning.

[Kingfisher]

An unsigned carbon copy, why would anyone make a copy of an unsigned document?

What an odd question.

Routinely, every time a letter is sent, the top copy is signed and sent and the carbon copy is filed unsigned by the sender's secretary. It's probably more likely that the carbon copy would be found in an office full of filed correspondence under search, than that the top copy would be found if it had been sent out into the field. Even today, when I send a hard copy I sign the printout, post it, and keep the computer file, unsigned.

None of that means it is genuine of course.

[Hannover]

An unsigned carbon copy, why would anyone make a copy of an unsigned document?

What an odd question.

Routinely, every time a letter is sent, the top copy is signed and sent and the carbon copy is filed unsigned by the sender's secretary. It's probably more likely that the carbon copy would be found in an office full of filed correspondence under search, than that the top copy would be found if it had been sent out into the field. Even today, when I send a hard copy I sign the printout, post it, and keep the computer file, unsigned.

None of that means it is genuine of course.

- But it's not a printout, but something Reichenau allegedly typed himself.
I seriously doubt anyone would dictate such an allegedly incriminating document to a secretary.
- But if so, it's standard practice for the secretary to initialize the dictated document and state no. of copies. Do we see a secretary's initials? Do we see appropriate numbering? No we do not.
BTW, those initials would be very traceable ... ah.
- And if the copies were sent out to others they would necessarily have been signed. I can't imagine any German official accepting an unsigned
document of such alleged importance.
- If this is a copy we must then ask where is the original? Certainly anyone destroying the original would also destroy any copies.

This dog don't hunt.

- Hannover

[hermod]

Lack of a signature doesn't mean it's fake. It looks as though it could well be the carbon copy, which would not receive a signature. Hannover is right, though, to say that in the absence of good evidence of provenance it is pretty worthless, as anyone could have typed it.

And anyway the opposite is also true: a signature doesn't necessarily mean a document isn't fake. What kid has never attempted to mimic his/her parents' signature, with a greater or lesser convincing result, in order to conceal bad marks or behaviors at school and so escape punishement? Only the kids always having good marks, I guess. It would be very naive to believe that armies wouldn't employ talented counterfeiters if needed.

Isn't much of the evidence presented at Nuremberg of similar poor quality, and isn't that what first led many of us here to smell a rat?

Hard to say with only "certified true copies" of originals nowhere to be found today available to us...