New research uncovers strong evidence that Jews were murdered BEFORE they reached Treblinka

[Hektor]

It should be explained (with evidence!) what happened to the Jews unfit for work who were the majority in the General Government, and who were seemingly filtered out and sent to Reinhard camps like Belzec. If they were put to work they should have been rehabilitated first, but where?

Most likely they were sent either to an internment camp or a ghetto. We don't know exactly where everyone went. For Belzec, the train records were allegedly destroyed by an aerial Soviet bomb. But even if there were documents recovered explaining this, they could easily have been lost or destroyed.
If there are no "huge mass graves" full of hundreds of thousand at Belzec -- and there is no reason to believe that there are -- then the Jews sent there must have, for the most part, continued on to somewhere else.....

That's correct:

1. People transported to Place X.
2. No traces of those people at place X.

Best Explanation: Those people must have gone answer, we simply may have lost track of them.

This is actually how people would reason in any other situation. Unless it gets the Holocaust stamp. Then deportation and 'no idea where they are' is prove for industrial style homicidal gassings.

[Butterfangers]

It should be explained (with evidence!) what happened to the Jews unfit for work who were the majority in the General Government, and who were seemingly filtered out and sent to Reinhard camps like Belzec. If they were put to work they should have been rehabilitated first, but where?

Most likely they were sent either to an internment camp or a ghetto. We don't know exactly where everyone went.

The number of different locations which contained Jews throughout the war is staggering, obviously in Poland where their greatest numbers originated, but also in the East. Ghettos numbered in the thousands (1,100+ in Europe, per establishment historians); labor camps were apparently in a similar range (some 150+ thus far identified in the Eastern-occupied territories; around 230 in Austria for Hungarian Jews, and 1,000+ in other German-controlled areas). Labor camps could hold anywhere from dozens to thousands of prisoners at a given location. The map below includes single labor camps (as a red marker), multiple labor camps under a green marker, and ghettoes as orange dots (only the largest 30% or so of ghettos are shown). The AR camps are in blue:

Interactive map of eastern labor camps with hover-over descriptions, here: https://www.mapcustomizer.com/map/Zwang ... ndUkraine4

Note that, per the data, many of these labor camps are known to have been opened until the approximate time of Soviet arrival/'liberation'. Some examples of camp closures along the densely-populated line between Minsk - Kaunas:

Mogilew closed March '44 (last mention)
Minsk (2 camps) closed July '44 (last mention)
Radoschkowitschi (2 camps) closed July '44 (last mention)
Vilnius (at least 2 camps) closed July '44
Palemonas (4082, 1 of 2 camps) closed August '44 (last mention)

"Last mention" seems to mean that there was no evidence of precisely when closure occurred, only that closure was inferred. Most camps with a closure date seem to have this description attached, which suggests many of them may have remained opened after their [presumed] closure date. Many camps have no data for this at all.

Also, it seems there are almost twice as many camps with a male population, compared to female, in the East. These women must have gone somewhere, especially when you consider that it is claimed almost twice as many men were killed compared to women in the 'Holocaust':

Of the estimated six million Jews who were killed during the Holocaust, 2 million of them were women.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_wo ... _Holocaust , also:
https://history.stackexchange.com/quest ... -holocaust

That "somewhere" was most likely the many ghettos or other internment camps nearby, for which I imagine even less precise data on operations would be available than for labor camps. I don't know. Wherever they were, women are more likely to also have been accompanied by children.

I wonder: what would Stalin and his depraved military be expected to do if they stumbled upon several hundred locations (or more) with Jewish former prisoners of Germany? How many would they have reported to have found? Where would they be sent? Would they be 'reeducated', assimilated (especially the young ones)? Would he just kill them, then blame Germany (a la Katyn)? It seems like the question of "disappearing Jews" should have always pertained to the Soviets and their activity, at least as much as for Germany.

[Butterfangers]

Did you know...

...that the Zwangsarbeitslagers in Austria for Hungarian Jews included a whopping eighty-six (86) camps for Jewish children? From what I can tell, nearly all of these camps opened up during or after the main period in which half of Hungarian Jews are said to have been 'exterminated' in Auschwitz (15 May – 9 July 1944).

Use the Ctrl+F search function, here, for the search term "Kinder" ("children" in German): https://archive.is/Gd3fe

Map of the Zwangsarbeitslagers in Austria:

Most of the camps with children opened in June '44, or within the months that followed. A couple of them opened 'circa June'; the sole children-only camp opened as early as April (Wien-Leopoldstadt). They typically stayed open approximately until the end of the war in Austria (late-April '45), sometimes even later.

At the precise time when Hungarian Jewish children were allegedly being "selected" for extermination at Auschwitz (based on the sole criteria of being a child), it is strange that Germany would also be setting up 86 camps for children nearby. Men and women were also housed at most of these camps. I wonder how old and/or infirm they might have been. Much of the labor seems like lighter work (electrical, glass-work, agricultural, textiles, cannery, etc.) than what is at some of the labor camps in other areas (quarry work, logging, etc.) or even at Auschwitz (construction, industrial, mining, etc.).

If Hungarian Jews said to have been 'gassed' at Auschwitz were actually sent elsewhere, especially those elderly/infirm/children, to places including but not limited to these labor camps, it casts further doubt upon the whole notion of Nazi extermination policy anywhere, of course, in addition to demonstrating how understanding these labor camps can influence perspective about Jewish dispersion throughout the various territories.

[PrudentRegret]

Interesting work, good job. It would be helpful to compile a spreadsheet of all the known Zwangsarbeitslagers with their opening/closing dates and estimated capacity (if applicable), and analyze the trendline compared to estimated cumulative deportations to see if there is a correlation as you suspect.

[bombsaway]

It has been well established that no German documents have been found that shed any light on the fate of the deportees from 42 on. This includes not only train records, but policy documents on how to handle the mass influx of Jews (1.5 million in 1942 alone, just from Poland), what camps should receive them, etc. This is explained by saying the Soviets destroyed or successfully hid the documents.

But what is the explanation for the lack of witness statements, before and after the fall of the USSR? How can human memory be so effectively suppressed that not a single witness statement corroborating mass resettlement of unfit Jews (children/families would suffice here) has emerged? Especially when they would have been incentivized to do so to get reparations. Hundreds of thousands of Jews emigrated to Israel from the USSR in the 70s and 80s.

This contrasts heavily with the resettlement of ~100,000 Jews in Transnistria, for which there is an enormous volume of witness statements, both from interned Jews and Romanian witnesses, pertaining to a much smaller amount of deported people.

[Lamprecht]

It has been well established that no German documents have been found that shed any light on the fate of the deportees from 42 on.

You mean that no documents are presently known. We do not know what documents existed and then were hidden, lost, or destroyed.

This includes not only train records, but policy documents on how to handle the mass influx of Jews (1.5 million in 1942 alone, just from Poland), what camps should receive them, etc. This is explained by saying the Soviets destroyed or successfully hid the documents.

It's not very important to know where exactly they went. If they were gassed and dumped into pits, those could be shown to exist. They can not be shown to exist, despite attempts, so they were not gassed and dumped into pits

But what is the explanation for the lack of witness statements, before and after the fall of the USSR?

Testimonies have been posted of people that were at these camps. People were transited from these camps, according to records, and their testimony is nowhere to be seen. There is no reason to assume that testimony must exist, or else these people were gassed and dumped into pits. The hypothesis that they were dumped into pits necessarily implies that there is physical evidence in exact locations. For Jews to have been put in some place, that doesn't mean they necessarily must have spoke of it.
And who would have been these "unfit for work" Jews anyway?
The elderly? Very young? How long were these people going to last anyway?

How can human memory be so effectively suppressed

Who is saying it is suppressed?

that not a single witness statement corroborating mass resettlement of unfit Jews (children/families would suffice here) has emerged?

Why do you consider children and families to be unfit for labor?

Especially when they would have been incentivized to do so to get reparations.

To get reparations? They really only needed to prove that they were in Europe at the time. Telling a story with a complete travel itinerary is not a prerequisite to getting reparations.

Hundreds of thousands of Jews emigrated to Israel from the USSR in the 70s and 80s.

And do you really expect them to remember every single stop of every single train ride many decades prior? It's a silly thing to assume.

This contrasts heavily with the resettlement of ~100,000 Jews in Transnistria, for which there is an enormous volume of witness statements, both from interned Jews and Romanian witnesses, pertaining to a much smaller amount of deported people.

The claim that Jews were resettled - something for which no physical evidence would exist for - contrasts with the claim that they were gassed by the hundreds of thousands and dumped into pits. If that is your belief, you have a serious issue with the fact that there's no physical evidence that can be shown to substantiate it.
There were all sorts of places that the "unfit" Jews could have been sent to.



They would have ended up under Soviet control in 1944, and we can only guess what happened to them after. Possibly many of them did not want to identify as Jews anymore. Or, they just died for some other reason - maybe even old age - in the next decade or two.

[bombsaway]

Lamprecht, allow me to rephrase:

See here a study of a single community (Shargorod Ghetto) of deported Jews in occupied USSR territory (Transnistria) https://www.cambridge.org/core/services ... istria.pdf

Roughly 100k Jews were deported into Transnistria (Romanian controlled), and an estimated 50% survived. This is extremely well evidenced by documents and witness testimonies, which you can read above. Most revisionists believe that a far greater number (1.5 - 2 mil) were deported into German held territory from 1942 onward. Why has no evidence of their existence (let alone survival) ever surfaced? If I'm mistaken, plz link me.

[Lamprecht]

Lamprecht, allow me to rephrase:

See here a study of a single community (Shargorod Ghetto) of deported Jews in occupied USSR territory (Transnistria) https://www.cambridge.org/core/services ... istria.pdf

Roughly 100k Jews were deported into Transnistria (Romanian controlled), and an estimated 50% survived. This is extremely well evidenced by documents and witness testimonies, which you can read above. Most revisionists believe that a far greater number (1.5 - 2 mil) were deported into German held territory from 1942 onward. Why has no evidence of their existence (let alone survival) ever surfaced? If I'm mistaken, plz link me.

Huh? You're making out what would be one singular stop, taking up less than a day, into some massive ordeal that all sorts of Jews ultimately ending up under Soviet control would be talking about endlessly. Again, it is not known where the Jews all went. One side is insinuating that they were gassed and dumped into massive pits. This contradicts the contents of the document you posted. There is another issue, which is that these pits cannot actually be shown to exist.

Again: the exterminationists are the only ones claiming to know exactly where they went.

[Otium]

But what is the explanation for the lack of witness statements, before and after the fall of the USSR? How can human memory be so effectively suppressed that not a single witness statement corroborating mass resettlement of unfit Jews (children/families would suffice here) has emerged? Especially when they would have been incentivized to do so to get reparations. Hundreds of thousands of Jews emigrated to Israel from the USSR in the 70s and 80s.

A handful of sand blown to the wind will not remain where it landed after 50 years, nor can it ever be accounted for. There's nothing more to it.
I honestly don't understand how hard that is to understand.

If you think the Jews were killed, then prove it, show it. If you can't then stop claiming it, because you will not prove anything in such a roundabout way as claiming a lack of evidence is evidence.

[borjastick]

My father was born in Dublin in 1926 and died in London in 2020.

When he left Dublin in 1940 never to return did the locals think he had been murdered?

[bombsaway]

Huh? You're making out what would be one singular stop, taking up less than a day, into some massive ordeal that all sorts of Jews ultimately ending up under Soviet control would be talking about endlessly. .

Well what I am pointing out is that the Jews deported into Romanian held USSR spoke profusely of their experiences and survival. You can see this in the detailed microhistory I posted, which concerns just a tiny subset of the total deportees. That nothing exists for the far greater number of Jews apparently deported into German held USSR, means this mass migration didn't happen, or that these witnesses were somehow targeted and silenced -- or had their memories suppressed through unknown means.

[Lamprecht]

Well what I am pointing out is that the Jews deported into Romanian held USSR spoke profusely of their experiences and survival.

At least how many of them "spoke profusely" about it? Provide a number
When did they "speak profusely" about it? Provide dates
Where did they "speak profusely" about it? Provide locations
To whom did they "speak profusely" about it, and why? Explain
What percent of those transited in this cohort "spoke profusely" about it? Provide an estimate
Can you provide a list of every single train stop they were subjected to when transferring to this location?

That nothing exists for the far greater number of Jews apparently deported into German held USSR

Again, it is not necessary that they were deported deep into the USSR. They could have very well just ended up in the general area of the camps!
As you can see:



There were all sorts of ghettos that could have held Jews from other parts of Europe

That no such "huge mass graves" exist for the alleged hundreds of thousands of Jews claimed to have been sent to Belzec means they were not gassed and dumped into enormous pits!
The fact of the matter is that enormous mass graves full of millions of pounds of burnt remains, bones, teeth, wood ash, etc can not magically disappear.
Meanwhile, we know for a fact that people can move around all sorts of places without talking about it or producing documentation that survives many decades.

means this mass migration didn't happen, or that these witnesses were somehow targeted and silenced -- or had their memories suppressed through unknown means.

Indeed, they would have ended up under Soviet control. It's rather possible that they would not have lived for decades after WWII, given that they were "unfit for work" which is disproportionately the elderly. Most quite possibly did not know what the train stops were even named, or did not remember. They could have been hiding their Jewish identity. There are a lot of explanations. I don't recall anyone claiming to know exactly where they went, except the people insisting they were all dumped into enormous pits that can not be shown to exist.

Either 100s of thousands were dumped into pits or they were not. If 100s of thousands were not dumped into pits, that does not answer where they went. It is unfortunate for the people that wish to have complete travel itineraries for hundreds of thousands of Jews from WWII that we do not have this information. What is fortunate is that there is no reason to think that 100s of thousands of Jews were dumped into enormous pits at Belzec. This should be good news, right?
Although, we don't know what happened to them under Soviet control later on. If they were not dumped into enormous pits at Belzec, they must have necessarily went somewhere else. It is simply absurd to demand documentation of where they went as some sort of requirement for the thesis that they were not dumped into pits. The pits, if they existed, could be shown to exist. You posted a document explaining that they were to be expelled beyond the border. It has been pointed out that this may have been a future plan (which makes sense given the locations of T2+B+S) and they could have been in a sort of "temporary" arrangement in a ghetto close to one of these camps.
So there's 2 positions:
1) they were dumped into pits
2) they went somewhere else

#1 can be proven by showing the pits. The pits cannot be shown. Documents (some of which are missing) support position #2. #2 could be disproven very quickly, with very little effort, via a thorough archeological excavation revealing the alleged huge mass graves. They cannot be shown to exist, so the most reasonable position is #2 - again, supported by the documentary evidence (for example, the one you referenced). It should be noted that documentary evidence is only marginally more authoritative than party testimony (the weakest form of evidence) and material/physical evidence is far more definitive.

[bombsaway]

Hold on, did you read the paper I linked? (referencing probably dozens of different sources testifying to the existence and survival of a single community of resettled Jews in Romanian held USSR)

I just glanced through quickly (my time is short) but a few names to search would be

Meier Teich

Marcu Rozen

Anna Ivankovitser

Samuil Roitberg

Ichel Pogranichny

Simon Meer

What do you think? I haven't seen anything like this for the alleged resettlement of 1.5-2 million Jews in German held territory from 1942 on, have you?

[Zolton]

bombsaway:

another cause for the delays could have been loading up non-employable Jewish "resettlers" from nearby ghettos.

Right, because, as Hektor pointed out:

Physical removal from society and territory. That's what the NS-policy towards Jews was.

Yet Butterfangers alleges:

Many or most, it would seem, departed at various labor camps along the way... evidence strongly suggests many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka.

And he implies that, along the Treblinka line, the Nazis disregarded their policy.

The so-called "evidence" that Butterfangers alleges "strongly suggests" the Nazis disregarded their policy of physically removing Jews to the east is based on "lengthy train stops" and pure speculation.

And that is why Nazgul refuses to acknowledge that the revisionist thesis is the Nazis Final Solution to the Jewish Problem was a forced emigration program and not an extermination pogrom and that the Nazis, Soviets and the Jews themselves made a steady effort to drive the Jews eastward.

So why are Butterfanges and Nazgul so eager to get revisionists to "accept the fact" that so many Jews were never pushed passed Treblinka?

[Zolton]

Nazgul:

It has been shown here that there were a large number of labour camps for Jews on the lines heading to Treblinka from both directions. The trains did stop at these camps for extended periods, they also stopped at railway junctions.

Question for the serial dodger:

Could the existence "of labour camps for Jews on the lines heading to Treblinka" be considered evidence that the Nazis were disregarding their Final Solution policies toward Jews in this area of Poland?