a math problem- the 5 million non Jews

[cold beer]

I'm realizing that I don't have and never did have a clue about the 5 million non-Jews of the holocaust.
I cannot find a straightforward breakdown for these 5 million people.
Clearly this 5 million isn't a reference to general civilian casualties because all estimates are far in excess of 5 million.

Confusion kicks in when I deduce that these 5 million must have met their death by the same methods that are alleged to account for the murder of 6 million Jews to be classified as holocaust victims, (albeit with a different distribution for the method of murder or cause of death)

I assume that these people for the most part died in camps because I don't hear stories about entire villages of ethnic Poles being shot into pits by Germans, for example

When it comes to gassing it's always stated that 90% or more of the victims are Jews.
This then seems to be a case where most of these 5 million must have been worked to death or die of diseases in the camps, which implies either a high attrition rate or a very large number of non-jew prisoners to number 5 million deaths.

The number of Jewish survivors testifying for the Shoah Foundation and making appearances at grade schools (teaching 'history' without accreditation) begs for an equation.

Most of the Jews sent to Auschwitz/Birkenau and the Reinhard camps are said to have been gassed on arrival, their numbers are greatly reduced. Anecdotal evidence suggests a significant number of survivors among the ungassed. This implies low attrition from starvation disease and hard labor.

Low attrition from causes other than gassing means that the Germans had enormous numbers of non-jews in these camps to cause a holocaust of 5 million.

The missing variable:
How many Jews took a cattle car to a German camp and lived to tell about it?
They were registered upon liberation, it should be a known figure.
That number would make it possible to estimate the number of non-jews put into German camps.

[cold beer]

omit

[Kingfisher]

They are an invention of Simon Wiesenthal. Even Deborah Lipstadt has said as much.

[borjastick]

They are an invention of Simon Wiesenthal. Even Deborah Lipstadt has said as much.

Kingfisher is bang on the money with this one. Apparently Simon Wiesenthal was worried that the world would feel the holocaust was too jewish and thus it wouldn't get the necessary buy in and engagement with the rest of the world if all the victims were jews only. Thus he came up with a figure of 5 million non jewish victims of the H just to spread the pain around a little, and yet still keep the jews on pole position with a death toll of 6m...

[diaz52]

They are an invention of Simon Wiesenthal. Even Deborah Lipstadt has said as much.

Kingfisher is bang on the money with this one. Apparently Simon Wiesenthal was worried that the world would feel the holocaust was too jewish and thus it wouldn't get the necessary buy in and engagement with the rest of the world if all the victims were jews only. Thus he came up with a figure of 5 million non jewish victims of the H just to spread the pain around a little, and yet still keep the jews on pole position with a death toll of 6m...

That's right! Thus, in the establishment's holocaust horror story, even in their victimization, the Jews are ahead of the goyim.

[TheBlackRabbitofInlé]

The 11 million figure has been described by Jewish academics as:

- "sheer nonsense"
- "makes no historical sense"
- "Wiesenthal acknowledged [...] that he simply invented it"
- "invented and arbitrary"
- "unacceptably mushy"
- "falsifying history"
- "Wiesenthal [...] invented the five million number"
- "Wiesenthal's historical invention"
- "fraudulent effort on Wiesenthal's part"

It is apparently no less a man than Simon Wiesenthal, the recent recipient of a well-deserved award for hunting down Nazis, who has invented the "11 million" formula that is a key slogan in the denial of the uniqueness of the Jewish experience. Wiesenthal is going around campuses and Jewish congregations saying that the Holocaust was the murder of 11 million people — the six million Jews and five million non-Jews who were killed in the Nazi camps.

In purely historical terms this is sheer nonsense. The total number of people who died in concentration camps during the war period — excepting Jews and Gypsies — was about half a million, perhaps a little more. On the other hand, the total number of non-Jewish civilian causalities during the war caused by Nazi brutality cannot be less than 20-25 million (probably close to 20 million Soviet citizens and 3 million Poles alone). Probably some 2.5 million Soviet POWs died in special camps that were not part of the concentration camp system (though some thousands were shipped to concentration camps and murdered there.

- "Whose Holocaust" by Yehuda Bauer, Midstream, v. 26, no.9, November, 1980, p.43.

Six million is an instantly recognizable number, the generally accepted estimate of the Jews killed by Nazi Germany in its murderous crusade. The phrase "the six million" is a rhetorical stand-in for "the Holocaust." But nowadays, for a great many people, the real number of Holocaust victims is eleven million: six million Jews and five million non-Jews.

[...]

The eleven million figure — or, rather, the notion of five million "other victims" of Nazism, added to six million Jews — makes no historical sense. Five million is either much too low (for all non-Jewish civilians killed by the Third Reich) or much too high (for non-Jewish groups targeted, like Jews, for murder). Where did the number come from? Although there is no detailed paper trail, it's generally agreed that the figure of eleven million originated with Simon Wiesenthal, the renowned pursuer of Nazi criminals. How did he arrive at this figure? The Israeli historian Yehuda Bauer reports that Wiesenthal acknowledged to him in a private conversation that he simply invented it. He was, he once told a reporter, against "dividing the victims": "Since 1948," Wiesenthal said, "I have sought with Jewish leaders not to talk about six million Jewish dead, but rather about eleven million civilians dead, including six million Jews. . . . We reduced the problem to one between Nazis and Jews. Because of this we lost many friends who suffered with us, whose families share common graves."

[...]

And, in the end, how much did this whole six-versus-eleven business matter? To some, of course, a great deal. Particularly for those Jews for whom the Holocaust was a holy event — the deaths of the Nazis' Jewish victims sacred, those of their gentile victims profane — the issue was not negotiable. The same was true of those for whom the "big truth" about the Holocaust was its Zionist lesson — that Jewish life in the Diaspora was untenable. For those, including myself; who value precision of expression, "six" describes something specific and determinate; "eleven," even apart from being invented and arbitrary, is unacceptably mushy. (Wiesenthal's invented number may not have been completely arbitrary; since it combines maximum inclusiveness with the preservation of a Jewish majority.)

[...]

During the period when Wiesel was wrangling with the Carter White House over the definition of the Holocaust, he gave voice to his anxiety. Survivors, he said, spoke of six million Jewish victims. "Then some friends ... began reminding us, 'true, but after all, there were others as well: It's true; there were others as well. So they said eleven million, six of whom are Jews . . . and in a couple of years, they won't even speak of the six. They will speak only of eleven million?'" It hasn't (with unimportant exceptions) happened yet, and there are no signs that it's about to happen. But it could.

- Peter Novick, The Holocaust in American Life, NY: Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 2000, pp. 214 - 226.

In an attempt to elicit non-Jewish interest in the Holocaust, Wiesenthal decided to broaden the population of victims—even though it meant falsifying history. He began to speak of eleven million victims: six million Jews and five million non-Jews. Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer immediately recognized that this number made no historical sense. Who, Bauer wondered, constituted Wiesenthal's five million? In fact, this figure is too high if one is counting victims who were targeted exclusively for racial reasons, but too low if one counts the total number of victims the Nazi regime killed outside military operations. Among those specifically targeted to be killed by the Nazis on racial or ideological grounds were Germans with mental and physical disabilities, some of the Roma (also known as Gypsies), Soviet and Polish educated and leadership elites, and Soviet civilians of certain ethnic groups. Many others, including domestic political opponents, members of national resistance movements in occupied territories, German homosexual men, and Germans labeled as "asocial" were imprisoned or sent to concentration camps. Countless died as a result of the atrocious treatment to which they were subjected. They were not, however, targeted for complete annihilation.

[...]

When Elie Wiesel challenged Wiesenthal to provide some historical proof that five million civilian non-Jews were murdered in the camps, Wiesenthal, rather than admit that he invented the five million number, accused Wiesel of "Judeocentrism," being concerned only about Jews.

Wiesenthal's historical invention obscures, if not denies, the true nature of the Holocaust. Wiesenthal's invented equivalencies ride roughshod over the history of Nazi policy during 1941-44. [...] More significant is that strangers have repeatedly taken me and other colleagues to task for ignoring the five million non-Jews. When I explain that this is an invented concept, they become convinced of my ethnocentrism. However well meaning, this fraudulent effort on Wiesenthal's part will have far more lasting deleterious implications than his confusing stories regarding his Nazi hunting.

- Deborah Lipstadt, The Eichmann Trial, NY: Schocken Books, 2011, pp. 8 - 10.

[cold beer]

This is all new information to me, I've never heard about this controversy among Jews.
It's a fabrication, their own tribe says so, how interesting!
I wish someone would cover this in a video, I think it would have impact if presented the right way.

It shows the power of propaganda, I've had beginnings of questions on this periodically pass through my mind yet until just recently never developed it to the point of actually raising a question.
It wasn't until it dawned on me that the math made no sense.

[A.N. Field]

The Jehovah's Witnesses I talk to hold their "holocausting" by the Germans near and dear. They are open to the wicked ways of the Jews, however.

Are the Roma collecting reparations? Seems like they will be attempting to enlist the gay movement to shore up the collapsing dykes and as shock troops to push for "hate speech" laws.

Tel Aviv's Gay Holocaust Victims Memorial Unveiled - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/10/tel-aviv-gay-holocaust-memorial-_n_4576057.html

[cold beer]

Are the Roma collecting reparations? Seems like they will be attempting to enlist the gay movement to shore up the collapsing dykes and as shock troops to push for "hate speech" laws.

Isn't that what this entire scheme is all about, convincing a generation of Americans that there's something redeeming about passing thought control laws and poluting their minds with values inversion?
That's why these liars show up in grade schools, in front of audiences of 9 and 10 year old kids who cannot formulate critical questions, but are wide open to being programmed emotionally.

[Kingfisher]

Seems like they will be attempting to enlist the gay movement to shore up the collapsing dykes...

Nice one! Did you realise you'd done it?

On a more serious note, they seem, originally, to have wanted to keep this an exclusively Jewish thing but over time have moved toward accepting others and other events such as the Armenians and Rwanda in order to broaden sympathy, provided the others recognise their secondary status and who is really in charge.

[Hektor]

The Jehovah's Witnesses I talk to hold their "holocausting" by the Germans near and dear. They are open to the wicked ways of the Jews, however.

Are the Roma collecting reparations? Seems like they will be attempting to enlist the gay movement to shore up the collapsing dykes and as shock troops to push for "hate speech" laws.
...[/url]

Actually, the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Watchtower Society doesn't to my knowledge push a story that they were "exterminated", unlike Gypsies, Homosexuals (I think the Homocaust site however doesn't) or Jews do. They claim they were persecuted for religious reasons, which isn't entirely true, since them draft dodging played a role in this. That's at least my knowledge on this, but I stand corrected, if others have different experiences or sources were Jehova Witnesses claim "extermination".

On the five million? Never saw a break down of this, but I heard someone claiming extermination of "three million non-Jewish Poles" or something in that line. I also read somewhere someone was peddling "21 million non-war related victims of Hitler". No source, let alone proof, given for that figure neither.

[Scotsman]

Probably some 2.5 million Soviet POWs died in special camps that were not part of the concentration camp system (though some thousands were shipped to concentration camps and murdered there.

I wonder if the 'Soviet POW' part of this might be examined more. I assume this is just high camp morality, but at Wikipedia and a few other places include 'Soviet POWs' and 'Poles' as part of the Holocaust death toll. It's like the above quotations of the 'other 5 million' being called nonsense hasn't cracked the story over there one bit. Comically, I see Freemasons also claim 200,000 of their members were also killed!

I don't have the patience to edit Wikipedia, but at the very least an undercover revisionist should ask them to justify those statements with proof. Does 'murdered POWs' perhaps refer to the Commisar Order ?

[A.N. Field]

Um, yes, Kingfisher, I couldn't resist. There was this recent public challenge to Holocaustianity at the Conference to Reassess the US-Israel Special Relationship: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... S73ufRIoYc

Blankfort had already spoken on gatekeepers. With some education, perhaps he'll add Horton, Raimondo, and Weiss to his list for next year. I found Horton's "nobody heard you anyway" particularly offensive.

Scott Horton - 612 W. 34th St Austin, TX 78705

Philip "Mondo" Weiss send to CERSC, PO Box 180165, Chicago, IL 60618

Justin Raimondo - Ralph Bourne Institute, 1017 El Camino Real #306, Redwood City, CA 94063

[Hannover]

As for the cited Yehuda Bauer, recall this:

The public still repeats, time after time, the silly story that at Wannsee the extermination of the Jews was arrived at. Wannsee was but a stage in the unfolding of the process of mass murder." (Canadian Jewish News, Jan. 30, 1992)

- Yehuda Bauer, former head of Yad Vashem, another 'holocaust' theme park.

The tide is turning.

- Hannover

[cold beer]

Um, yes, Kingfisher, I couldn't resist. There was this recent public challenge to Holocaustianity at the Conference to Reassess the US-Israel Special Relationship: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... S73ufRIoYc

Blankfort had already spoken on gatekeepers. With some education, perhaps he'll add Horton, Raimondo, and Weiss to his list for next year. I found Horton's "nobody heard you anyway" particularly offensive.

Scott Horton - 612 W. 34th St Austin, TX 78705

Philip "Mondo" Weiss send to CERSC, PO Box 180165, Chicago, IL 60618

Justin Raimondo - Ralph Bourne Institute, 1017 El Camino Real #306, Redwood City, CA 94063

God bless that woman