alleged Zyklon-B use for mass murder made no sense

[Hannover]

Zyklon-B is a fumigant, an insecticide, Sarin nerve gas is a chemical weapon for killing people.

Sarin nerve gas, also called phosphonofluoridic acid, is a colorless and odorless gas, has a lethal dose of 0.5 milligram for an adult. It is 26 times more deadly than cyanide gas and is 20 times more lethal than potassium cyanide. Just 0.01 milligram per kilogram of body weight a pinprick sized droplet will kill a human. The vapor is slightly heavier than air, so it hovers close to the ground. Under wet and humid weather conditions sarin degrades swiftly, but as the temperature rises up to a certain point, sarin’s lethal duration increases, despite the humidity.

There were over 12 000 tons of sarin gas found in Germany at the end of WWII, if the intent were to kill several million Jews with gas sarin nerve gas would have been the choice. It could have easily been shipped to Auschwitz.

The requested details for sarin gas can be found here:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/7050/

- Hannover

[Hebden]

There were over 12 000 tons of sarin gas found in Germany at the end of WWII, if the intent were to kill several million Jews with gas sarin nerve gas would have been the choice. It could have easily been shipped to Auschwitz.

The requested details for sarin gas can be found here:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/7050/

- Hannover

You can''t have read the site very closely because it says that:

The manufacture of sarin never started properly and up to 1945 only about 0.5 tonne of this nerve agent was produced in a pilot plant.

We are not impressed by your line of counterfactual argument. Fact remains that HCN is a deadly gas which under proper conditions would be highly effective in killing large numbers of people.

[Sailor]

The reference was to tabun, a nerve gas, which works too:

"A factory for production of this first nerve agent was built and a total of 12 000 tonnes of tabun were produced during the years three years (1942-1945). At the end of the second world war the Allies seized large quantities of this nerve agent and other nerve agents that Schrader and his co-workers has synthesised. They synthesised about 2 000 new organo-phosphorus compounds, including sarin (1938). The third of the "classic" nerve agents, soman, was first produced in 1944. These three nerve agents are known as G agents in the American nomenclature. The manufacture of sarin never started properly and up to 1945 only about 0.5 tonne of this nerve agent was produced in a pilot plant."

[Hannover]

Hebden tries a strawman by implying that I believe that HCN is not deadly "under proper conditions". It is, BUT not under conditions alleged in the standard 'holocau$t' story; and is quite impractical when compared to the German stock of nerve gasses.

The point remains, and Hebden cannot refute, the German nerve gasses would have been much more practical, simpler, and cheaper than the alleged use of insecticide.

I have corrected Sarin to Tabun...see below. No difference, the Germans could have easily produced vast quantities of Sarin if they wished, or used their existing huge quantities of Tabun.....IF the alleged program of "extermination" had existed.
Extract of quote from larger text below:
"Nerve gasses on the whole tend not to be gasses at all but a fine suspension of volatile liquids in air. This actually makes them just as effective as a gas but easier to store and to disperse ***making them a far better weapon***."

Hebden tries a strawman, then splits hairs on nerve gasses; not impressive nor convincing with respect to allegations of gas chambers.

- Hannover

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/7050/

A factory for production of this first nerve agent was built and a total of ***12 000 tonnes** of tabun (tabun, not sarin, my mistake) were produced during the years three years (1942-1945). At the end of the second world war the Allies seized large quantities of this nerve agent and other nerve agents that Schrader and his co-workers has synthesised. They synthesised about 2 000 new organo-phosphorus compounds, including sarin (1938). The third of the "classic" nerve agents, soman, was first produced in 1944. These three nerve agents are known as G agents in the American nomenclature. The manufacture of sarin never started properly and up to 1945 only about 0.5 tonne of this nerve agent was produced in a pilot plant.

Tabun: The first purpose made nerve agent.

Nerve gasses on the whole tend not to be gasses at all but a fine suspension of volatile liquids in air. This actually makes them just as effective as a gas but easier to store and to disperse ***making them a far better weapon***.

[Hebden]

The reference was to tabun, a nerve gas, which works too:

"A factory for production of this first nerve agent was built and a total of 12 000 tonnes of tabun were produced during the years three years (1942-1945).

We wonder why the Germans produced so much of a chemical that they had never widely tested or put into use. Unless, of course, they were employing it in its original function as an insecticide.

It's just as well their storage facilities were not in Dresden, otherwise the entire population might have had their chips.

We expect next to hear an argument against the Katyn Forest murders on the grounds that machine guns would have done the job better. We also wonder if Mr. Hoess or Mr. Globocnik were party to the research projects into nerve gasses.

[Sailor]

It's just as well their storage facilities were not in Dresden, otherwise the entire population might have had their chips.

Is that what Americans would do with their poison gas, store it in New York City? No kidding!

We expect next to hear an argument against the Katyn Forest murders on the grounds that machine guns would have done the job better.

They may have.

We also wonder if Mr. Hoess or Mr. Globocnik were party to the research projects into nerve gasses.

Maybe the hoaxers are already working on this.

[Hannover]

Hebden tries to spin the story with:

We wonder why the Germans produced so much of a chemical that they had never widely tested or put into use..

However the same site that was referenced:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/7050/
says:

There is evidence that suggests that Hitler was advised against using the agents and even stopped their production.

Knowing the use of gas in WWI, it was/is commonplace for all major powers to have stocks of nerve gas.

Then Hebden obfuscates with:

We expect next to hear an argument against the Katyn Forest murders on the grounds that machine guns would have done the job better. We also wonder if Mr. Hoess or Mr. Globocnik were party to the research projects into nerve gasses.

Whereas the Katyn was an ad hoc mass murder of Polish officers by the Communists, the allegations of Nazi gas chambers were said to have been an efficient, industrial, assembly-line, PLANNED program of 'extermination'....but yet they chose to use an insecticide and not use the better weapon of nerve gas? Sure.
And No Hoess & Globocnik, has nothing to do with gas chambers of any kind, let alone nerve gas. Hebden, are you okay?

- Hannover

[Scott]

The only problem with the nerve gases is that cleanup would have been a little more complicated and it would have been considerably more dangerous for the users.

But the argument that the Germans never bothered to have experts do a feasibility study with military war-gases (from chlorine to Sarin) goes against the theory of gassings being an Intentionalist program directed from the highest levels like Hitler, to a Functionalist one more like a Rube Goldberg initiative on the part of underlings like Obersturmbannführer Höß (no doubt with Himmler's acquiesence).

Furthermore, if anybody would know about German secret weapons it would be General Kammler, whom Speer claims that Himmler was grooming to take over his job. Hans Kammler of course built the Kremas at Birkenau and later directed the V-1 and V-2 program and all German secret weapons including turbojets. He certainly would have had knowledge of war-gases. Interestingly, the relentless forced-labor camps like Nordhausen building V-weapons that Kammler supervised have never been claimed to have gassed or euthanized those becoming diseased or unfit to work.

[Hannover]

In general, the idea of gassing is absurd at almost any level, as alleged.

Why transport Jews thousands of miles just to 'exterminate' them'? The alleged 'selections' for work could have been done prior to transport, the remaining 'unfit' Jews could simply be shot with 1 cent bullets.

The method as alleged is about as inefficient, stressful, detectable as possible, and frankly absurd.

- Hannover

[Scott]

In general, the idea of gassing is absurd at almost any level, as alleged.

Why transport Jews thousands of miles just to 'exterminate' them'? The alleged 'selections' for work could have been done prior to transport, the remaining 'unfit' Jews could simply be shot with 1 cent bullets.

The method as alleged is about as inefficient, stressful, detectable as possible, and frankly absurd.

I agree and that's why I'm skeptical about the whole story. However, just because the Jews got their story wrong doesn't mean that there is no story at all.

[Hannover]

Whatever story there is, it cannot support the alleged 6,000,000 (12-13,000,000 alleged grand total ...even more preposterous) & alleged gas chambers. It cannot support the alleged 1-2,000,000 killed by shootings either. There was however, a war going on, and people did die. And yes, Jew were sent to labor/resettlement camps.

We seem to be getting off topic.

- Hannover

[Hebden]

It's just as well their storage facilities were not in Dresden, otherwise the entire population might have had their chips.

Is that what Americans would do with their poison gas, store it in New York City? No kidding!

Talking of New York, one is put in mind of the following found in the book At Hitler's Side : The Memoirs of Hitler's Luftwaffe Adjutant 1937-1945 by Nicholas Von Below (Greenhill Books, 2001):

With these final heavy air raids on Dresden the German people
understood at last the mentality of the Western Allies. After Dresden
Hitler said frequently that he was going to renounce the Geneva
Conventions, but Jodl always managed to dissuade him from this step.

There is a translator's note here which reads:

According to the German historian Gunther Gellermann in his book Der
Krieg der nicht stattfand, 1986, Hitler ordered an attack against New
York in which six U-boats would fire off rockets and shells filled
with sarin nerve gas in reprisal for Dresden, but Jodl talked him out
of this plan.

We asked Mr. Irving if he knew what Mr. Gellermann's source might be, which drew the pointed response: 'his imagination'.

[Hebden]

In general, the idea of gassing is absurd at almost any level, as alleged.

Why transport Jews thousands of miles just to 'exterminate' them'? The alleged 'selections' for work could have been done prior to transport, the remaining 'unfit' Jews could simply be shot with 1 cent bullets.

- Hannover

Yes, shooting thousands of people in the holding camps of Drancy, Westerbork etc. wouldn't have drawn any attention at all.

[Hebden]

But the argument that the Germans never bothered to have experts do a feasibility study with military war-gases (from chlorine to Sarin) goes against the theory of gassings being an Intentionalist program directed from the highest levels like Hitler, to a Functionalist one more like a Rube Goldberg initiative on the part of underlings like Obersturmbannführer Höß (no doubt with Himmler's acquiesence).

And which theory is borne out by Mr. Hoess's own testimony?

[Scott]

But the argument that the Germans never bothered to have experts do a feasibility study with military war-gases (from chlorine to Sarin) goes against the theory of gassings being an Intentionalist program directed from the highest levels like Hitler, to a Functionalist one more like a Rube Goldberg initiative on the part of underlings like Obersturmbannführer Höß (no doubt with Himmler's acquiesence).

And which theory is borne out by Mr. Hoess's own testimony?

Not the Intentionalist one, IMHO, because Höß simply says that Himmler told him that Hitler wanted the Jews killed, so Höß found a way using the insecticide already kicking about the camp, to which Höß was relieved because it meant he wouldn't have to undertake any more mass-executions by firing squad at the Stammlager. And he touts his Zyklon gassing method as being reliable, unlike the "carbon monoxide from engines" at the Reinhardt camps, where he claims that some people did not die after being gassed and had to be dispatched by a guard.

I can believe that Höß might have comeup with some Rube Goldberg operation, chiselling holes into the ceilings of a basement or using some bunker, but only if this was on his own (or maybe Himmler's) casual initiative and not for the numbers claimed. If Hitler had ordered it then engineers would have been involved, and I don't think that Kammler was. There seems to have been no basic engineering at the Reinhardt camps either, which also makes me suspicious of that story as well.

At best we can tease a Functionalist interpretation out of the (mostly testimonial) evidence, IMHO. I don't think that millions were gassed, but I don't think that NONE were gassed has been definitely proved either. It all depends on the numbers that we are *really* talking about.

It is one thing to say that the government authorized the occasional killing of the unfit in overcrowded concentration camps or engaged in massacres during a bloody war; it is quite another to claim that the government ordered the extermination of ALL members of a group as enemy-aliens, and to the tune of millions.