Otium wrote:bombsaway wrote:if the core samples indicated substantial amounts of cremains would this change anything for you?
Probably not, though it would help the other side sound less unconvincing.
The problem with doing it now is that they've constructed this narrative from the beginning and looked to justify it later. At no point in the last 80 years has there been any responsible authority with the integrity to do the right thing from the start and presume innocence before giving a guilty verdict on the basis of the most thorough and vigorious attempts to invesitgate the claims with no priors. This was never done.
Even when they do sham investigations under the guise of authority, whether it be at Auschwitz, Treblinka, or Belzec, they do so looking to confirm prior biases. So no, even if they did a study (as they've poorly attempted to do in the past) to pass it off (in reality with meagre evidence) I would have a tough time believing them, because they had no credibility in the first place.
......Even after the action was complete the Jews which Kube says were going to remain (they weren't literally killing all of them) because of their usefulness, Kube notes his personal preference was to kill them:"Of course, it would be most preferable for me and the SD to finally eliminate Jewry in the General District of White Ruthenia after the economic claims of the Wehrmacht have ceased to exist."
PS-3428. IMT, Vol. 32, p. 281.
From this we can determine that the Jews which remained were not to be killed right after as, I'm sure, the exterminationists would assume since they claim the plan was to kill "all Jews". Yet Kube had to stress his own opinion, which would've been unnecessary if that were the case.bombsaway wrote:What's your definition of a reprisal? I suppose if we're broadening the definition enough, the Holocaust in orthodox terms could be considered a reprisal action (for the Jews starting the war, bringing Bolshevism into the world, etc)
I suppose you could. Seems raucous to me. Yet still, this doesn't mean the "reprisals" - however you define the extent - was in connection with a plan to exterminate anyone.
Reprisal is a punishment for previous hostile or unlawful actions. Those can be collective punishments. The purpose is immanent change of behavior. E.g.: Partisans kill civilians or soldiers - military authorities pick up some people suspected of supporting the partisans and execute them publicly. Intention is to deter that kind of activity. It should be noted that people are also coerced by the partisans to join and support them. And that can lead to a competition of terror as well as a spiral of violence.
Now if one decontextualizes this, it gets easy to portray this as "atrocities against innocent civilians" ... If you dramatize it often enough people will take it for granted. From thereon it gets easy to style this as something more sinister such as an 'extermination program'. Through repetition this will be framed in the minds of people and now anything they pick up in terms of information will be interpreted as being part of an 'extermination program'.
It seems biases and prejudices matter, if you can manipulate them, this will determine in what direction things will be interpreted by the public. People take for granted that the extermination thesis is true, so any questioning of this, becomes suspicious to them.
"The Holocaust" is also designed as a package deal. The front product is "extermination of Jews in gas chambers"... but anything is included from registering Jews over deporting and interning them... any mortality is viewed as intentional then. Circumstances of war will be mostly ignored.
So the issue is that people start with the conclusions they have been conditioned to expect and then interpret any evidential information in that way. Information that doesn't fit the picture is also ignored, even if it is noticed by them. There is no way that one can get an anyhow realistic picture that way.