The Numbers Game

[borjastick]

I am confused. I cannot make the numbers add up, not before the war, not after the war and certainly not now. I would appreciate comments and thoughts as to this conundrum.

Background

There are several fundamentals as we all know, concerning the validity of the whole holocaust story and as the 'facts' don't make sense these cornerstones are shaky to say the least.

The fundamentals to me are based on the numbers, the method and the intent.

The Problem

Calculating the potential death toll from the jewish holocaust has always been very difficult because the numbers simply don't add up. However I think this is as much for revisionism as it is possibly against it.

If we go with the 'official' figures of the world jewish population, as generally accepted, from the WJC and the US version we have a figure of about 13.9 million after the war and yet very strangely the 'official' figure today says the figure alive today is less at about 12.5 million. Israel made a big thing of it a couple of months ago, that just over 6m were living now in Israel.

So in a world with a bulging population, longer life expectancy etc how is it that in the 70 years since the end of the war the world population of jews has declined?? I don't think this makes sense at all.

My guess is that these numbers are all wrong from the start but of course there is no proof. If I start with the immediate post war figure of 13.9m I think this has to be an understimate because it cannot possibly have an accurate figure of the Russian jews. This would be for two reasons; they were displaced, not in the synagogue system and more importantly the Russians would never have released figures even if they had them, due to their prediliction with making the Germans the appear to be guilty of genocide.

Therefore it is quite likely the actual figure was several million higher.

So that brings me to the current figures. I am of the opinion these are manipulated. Additionally I make a guess that a good number of jews hid their religion after the war or dropped it all together in an effort to assimilate into the new world they now inhabited. Therefore they too would not be in the current figures.

Things get a little murky when one considers the possible not inconsiderable number of jews said to have been killed in the holocaust, but which in reality emigrated out of europe in the pre war years. This figure could be as much as 500k-1m.

I throw this out there for general comment on the figures which to my simple mind cannot make the 6m death rate fit the story at all.

Edited only for the removal of erroneous figures.

[Turpitz]

Calculating the potential death toll from the jewish holocaust has always been very difficult because the numbers simply don't add up.

Before you start counting can I suggest you show us the bodies, or just the remains. Or do you feel I ask for too much?

[borjastick]

Well that is sort of where I am trying to get to but was hoping for more of an analytical approach.

The traditional holocaustians will say the figure of post war jews was in fact only 9m or so and thus the current figure represents a real growth of some 40% or so, but that in itself is full of holes.

[Kingfisher]

The birth rate in developed industrialised countries has fallen sharply to well below the replenishment rate, though with considerable variation from country to country. It is especially low in Eastern Europe, Germany and Southern Europe, and higher in The US, UK, Ireland and France. I don't think that Jewish families are generally larger than average.

There has been a lot of marrying out by Jews, as well as simply no longer actively belonging to a Jewish community, leading to the issue of who, exactly counts as a Jew. This tends to blur the statistics.

[borjastick]

Not sure about that Kingfisher. Yes birth rates have fallen in more recent years but over the past 70 years not so. Unless you are in Russia or Japan where the population is about to collapse totally over the next 30 years.

My point is that most Jews in Europe and the US/West live in normal circumstances and yet here we are with almost a negative growth officially, in three generations.

Turpitz mentioned the fact that they are unable to prove death rates due to a lack of bodies. Maybe but we know that Jews did die, the question I pose is how do we get to the real figures, when whichever way we look at it bottom up or top down the figures don't make sense. There is an anomaly going on here but I cannot put my finger on it.

My guess is that there are a great deal more Jews in the world today than we are led to believe and that there were far more alive after the war than we were told.

Put it another way the figures would suggest only 1/480 odd is jewish yet I know and have worked with many jews. We are told that 1/3 of the general population is gay yet I am not aware of many gay people that I know of personally.

[Turpitz]

Well that is sort of where I am trying to get to but was hoping for more of an analytical approach.

The industry does seem to like to pursue the 'analytical approach' That could be because they cannot forge the practical/physical aspect, so, best keep to the pie-charts.

Turpitz mentioned the fact that they are unable to prove death rates due to a lack of bodies. Maybe but we know that Jews did die.

I did not say Jews didn't die. I am saying they didn't die in anywhere near the numbers the odious religion they follow would have us believe. Out of all the nationalities/races that died in the war, the Jews are at the very bottom end of the death graph Also, the ones that did die, didn't die from a state sponsored 'extermination plan'.

There has been a lot of marrying out by Jews, as well as simply no longer actively belonging to a Jewish community, leading to the issue of who, exactly counts as a Jew.

I bet the Palestinians wouldn't have a great problem pointing them out to you.

[Balsamo]

So in a world with a bulging population, longer life expectancy etc how is it that in the 70 years since the end of the war the world population of jews has declined?? I don't think this makes sense at all.

Kingfisher already answered this question and he is right.
Germany used to have a great birth rate in the XIX century. Its population grew from 42000000 in 1875 to 56000000 in 1900 and 67.000.000 at the start of ww1...and that was not caused by immigration in those times.
Due to the two WW, population of Germany in 1950 was about the same as in 1914.
But between 1975 (78.000.000) and 2012, the population has only grown 4 millions and that is with immigration, as there are 6.700.000 registred foreigners in 2009...that means that millions of Germans actually dissapeared.
This trend is quite the same in most developped nations, and includes the Jews.

Now i am the first to say that the number game is a no win game.

Demographic sources do exist, but most census were held in 1931-2, if i recall correctly, the Korherr report is based on 1933 numbers for Germany, but those statistics only concerns Jews based on their religion, not even their nationalities. as we know the Germans would apply a racial definition.

A good example of the complexity of the matter is shown by the case of Belgium (which is the only i know well):
the Korherr report stated that 44000 Jews were living in Belgium, when only a few thousands (3.000) of them were Belgian citizens...the vast majority of them were Poles who were working there.
We also know that the German after occupying the country would count around 55000 thousands when in fact 64000 Jews were living there, 60% of them being Poles. Those foreign Jews have thus to be withdrawn from other countries statistics.
It is estimated that 12.000 German Jews flew to Belgium between 1933 and 1939.
Among them 25000 would be deported and disappear, only a very few of them were belgian citizens.

Now let's have a look on the statistics provided by the American Jewish Year book for Belgium only:
They state that 100.000 Jews were living in Belgium by 1939 and 40.000 in 1946.
The Anglo American Committee of enquiry states 90.000 Jews in Belgium in 1939 and 33.000 in 1946, saying that 25.000 were Natives (?) and 8.000 DP (mainly German Austrian and Poles)...
Well, it is a mess!
The only thing that is true is the number of the deported Jews...25.000...which, and it should be noted, is the number used by Hillberg...although, as i said, only a tiny fraction were in fact Belgians.
But numerous foreign historians will later conclude that those Jews were indeed Belgian Jews, which is wrong.

On the other hand, Revisionists should put their emmigration theories into perspective...Emmigration outside Europe was extremely difficult, and the vast majority would flee within the continent just to be caught later.

Another difficulty to keep touch with demographic data is the case of the German Jews in Belgium.
I have said that 12.000 flew the Reich between 1933 and 1939, well, the 10th of May 1940, the Belgian Police would arrest 7500 of them, suspected of being German spies, and send them to camps in France, near Perpignan. Those thus enter the French statistics when later deported.
It has to be said that those transports were horrible, alike the German's ones, in cattle wagons for a 40 hours trip. Those camps in southern France were terrible and had a terrible death rates as well as soon as 1940.
It is also to be noted that Belgium, unlike the Netherlands, had a military administration, under von Falkenhausen, and that King Leopold's daughter, princess Marie Jose married the heir to the throne of Italy. This gave the Belgian aristocracy a great influence, and all in all, thousands of other Jews managed to escape to France...Some estimations go to 15-20.000....but again, for some of them, just to be arrested later...

The conclusion here is that it is a very complicated thing to follow all those populations transfers, here, taking only the case of little Belgium.
I guess that this makes me a kind of revisionist, though, i must say that nothing of what i say here are based on Revisionists' works, but from scholars' researches from the Brussels university, and that includes Max Steinberg.

No one can win this number game...And yes, the 6.000.000 resulting from the addition/substraction from the allied statistics are baseless and are the result of "double counting"...just as flawed are Revisionists own statistical efforts....because those tend to believe that once you flew from Germany, the Jews were just saved...

It is the method that have flaws, the sames are found on both side of the debate.

[Hannover]

Balsamo said:

No one can win this number game...And yes, the 6.000.000 resulting from the addition/substraction from the allied statistics are baseless and are the result of "double counting"...just as flawed are Revisionists own statistical efforts....because those tend to believe that once you flew from Germany, the Jews were just saved...

Balsamo, please show us "Revisionists own statistical efforts" in support of your assertion that Revisionists believe "... once you flew from Germany, the Jews were just saved...". Also, please cite and quote the text in which Revisionists state this.

- Hannover

[Turpitz]

Kingfisher already answered this question and he is right.

Well, I beg to differ. I think you are both talking bollocks and trying to make a very simple matter into a difficult one. It was easy for Jews to leave Europe to the East, that's why the German trains headed that way in order to kick them out. Russia was totally run by Jews at this time, a very similar situation to America today, so, there would have been absolutely no problem going in that direction. Also, there was no need to try and 'flee' as you like to put it, as the the Germans had laid on transport for them to 'flee', all they had to do was get on the train. Jews are bloody everywhere today, all one has to do is turn on the T.V. The only place they don't seem to be is in any of these so-called mass-graves that you cannot find.

[Balsamo]

Balsamo said:

No one can win this number game...And yes, the 6.000.000 resulting from the addition/substraction from the allied statistics are baseless and are the result of "double counting"...just as flawed are Revisionists own statistical efforts....because those tend to believe that once you flew from Germany, the Jews were just saved...

Balsamo, please show us "Revisionists own statistical efforts" in support of your assertion that Revisionists believe "... once you flew from Germany, the Jews were just saved...". Also, please cite and quote the text in which Revisionists state this.

- Hannover

Well, i was thinking of Walter Sanning for instance, who will play with the data the same way, just with the opposite approach.
But again, i am not blaming individuals here, but the method . Addition/substraction just don't make the trick, whoever try to do it. Everyone is free to stick to his/her estimation, of course, if he or she admits that the results are only that, estimation.

[Hannover]

Balsamo said:

Well, i was thinking of Walter Sanning for instance, who will play with the data the same way, just with the opposite approach.
But again, i am not blaming individuals here, but the method . Addition/substraction just don't make the trick, whoever try to do it. Everyone is free to stick to his/her estimation, of course, if he or she admits that the results are only that, estimation.

What did Sanning say that supports your stated opinion? Be specific.
You mentioned "Revisionists", those are individuals. So, which Revisionists? Please quote what they said in regards to your stated opinions.
At this forum you will be challenged on your claims. Which is what debate is all about.
Again:

Balsamo, please show us "Revisionists own statistical efforts" in support of your assertion that Revisionists believe "... once you flew from Germany, the Jews were just saved...". Also, please cite and quote the text in which Revisionists state this.

- Hannover

[borjastick]

Kingfisher already answered this question and he is right.

Well, I beg to differ. I think you are both talking bollocks and trying to make a very simple matter into a difficult one. It was easy for Jews to leave Europe to the East, that's why the German trains headed that way in order to kick them out. Russia was totally run by Jews at this time, a very similar situation to America today, so, there would have been absolutely no problem going in that direction. Also, there was no need to try and 'flee' as you like to put it, as the the Germans had laid on transport for them to 'flee', all they had to do was get on the train. Jews are bloody everywhere today, all one has to do is turn on the T.V. The only place they don't seem to be is in any of these so-called mass-graves that you cannot find.

Turpitz I agree with you, Jews seem to be everywhere which is part of my suggestion here with this thread.

I am firmly, at this stage, of the opinion that the numbers quoted of world jewish population are nonsense. It is quite obvious to me that they are literally everywhere. Therefore the figure of the end of war total of 13.9m is not true or unlikely to be and the current figure of 12.5m is farcical. My guess is that there are at least double the number alive today.

The reason these official figures is manipulated is the never ending story they need to push on us of being the chosen ones who have suffered more than anyone else. Victimhood is everything.

[Kingfisher]

I am firmly, at this stage, of the opinion that the numbers quoted of world jewish population are nonsense. It is quite obvious to me that they are literally everywhere.

They are not "everywhere"; that is the point. They seem to be because they are in positions of influence and prominence. Watch French television and you could be forgiven for thinking 20% of the population was Jewish. You know a lot of Jews because you work in advertising. If you work in business, the professions or academia you will run into more than if you work on a building site or in the oil industry. That said, I agree that the figures are unreliable, partly because of the difficulty of knowing who to include. Those 6m Jews in Israel today probably include not a few who only had one Jewish grandparent, since that is all you need to get into Israel.

If you add the "official" figures on this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country you come to 13,723,951. I haven't tried to add the "enlarged estimates" but they look like being a couple of million more.

You can do almost anything you like with post WW2 population figures. The Polish figures have been manipulated in a similar way, as General Jaruzelski pointed out, and so have the Russian ones. Everyone wants to show that they were the biggest victims.

(Turpitz: Please don't be rude to me when I never even commented on the issues you go on to address. In fact, please don't be rude, to anyone. Full stop. This is CODOH forum, not YouTube )

[Moderator]

Turpitz:
We value your views, but please take it easy.
Thanks, M1

[The Warden]

The U.S. Census didn't record religion as part of their information. Any religious affiliation was recorded by the actual religious groups themselves. Seeing that the theory is "Jews went where Jews are", a certain bias has to be considered with all the known information to date.

The Bureau of the Census collected information in the Census of Religious Bodies from 1906-1936. This information was obtained from religious organizations.

Public Law 94-521 prohibits us from asking a question on religious affiliation on a mandatory basis; therefore, the Bureau of the Census is not the source for information on religion.
http://www.census.gov/prod/www/religion.htm