Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

[Lamprecht]

From bombsaway: viewtopic.php?p=107614#p107614

from what I've seen there is a lot more evidence of a genocidal program than there is mass population transfer and internment

Really? But you have posted no evidence of huge mass graves that are inconsistent with such a resettlement policy (as described in numerous documents, especially those describing the "Final Solution"). In fact, it appears as though there is absolutely no physical evidence that can be shown to confirm your "genocidal program" conspiracy theory. Even the documents you cite describing executions of Jews during WWII generally contradict your conspiracy theory.

It is claimed that three Operation Reinhardt camps [Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka 2] were “pure extermination centers” where over 1 million Jews were exterminated in homicidal gas chambers.

Alleged methodology of "eliminating the traces":
1. Dig tens to hundreds of thousands of rotting corpses out of alleged “gigantic pits”
2. Burn these many thousands of bodies on huge pyres made from railroad rails
3. Throw all the burnt remains, bones, teeth, wood ashes, etc back into the same alleged “gigantic pits”
4. Cover all the millions of pounds of physical evidence with “A thick layer of sand and dirt”

Claimed death tolls at the alleged CRIME SCENE(s):
– Treblinka II: 700 – 900 thousand
– Sobibor: 170 – 250 thousand
– Belzec: 435 – 600 thousand

TOTAL: 1.3 – 1.8 million. To simplify the math, let’s just go with 1.5 million

Quantity of human remains expected:
A 2004 study published in J Forensic Sci titled “Cremation Weights in East Tennessee” found that cremated remains weigh on average 2350g (5.18 lbs) per female and 3380g (7.45 lbs) per male. The minimum recorded weight of cremated remains was 1050g (2.3 lbs) for a woman and 1865g (4.11 lbs) for a male.

Keep in mind these figures are based on individuals cremated in a modern crematoria oven, whereas at these 3 "Extermination camps" the alleged hundreds of thousands of jews were supposedly burned in giant open air pyres. Naturally this would result in a larger quantity of human remains + additional wood ash. We can use 5lbs as the absolute minimum average weight of remains expected per alleged murdered Jew (it would actually be over 10lbs)

Quantity of burnt/unburnt human remains requested from the alleged CRIME SCENE(s):
– Novice: 1% of 1.5 million = 15,000 [OR min weight: 75,000 lbs / 34,000 kg]
– Easy: 1/10th of 1% of 1.5 million = 1,500 [OR min weight: 7,500 lbs / 3,400 kg]
– Child’s play: 1/100th of 1% of 1.5 million = 150 [OR min weight: 750 lbs / 340 kg]

From Yitzhak Arad’s book “BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA” chapter 23, The Erasure of the Crimes:
“The camp command was confronted with the problem of disposing of the large piles of ash and bits of bone that remained… Ultimately it was decided to dump the ash and bits of bone into the ditches that had previously held the bodies and to cover them with a thick layer of sand and dirt… [Eyewitness] Abraham Goldfarb relates: …’we secretly placed in the walls of the graves whole skeletons and we wrote on scraps of paper what the Germans were doing at Treblinka. We put the scraps of paper into bottles, which we placed next to the skeletons. Our intention was that if one day someone looked for traces, they could indeed be found.’"

Maps of alleged mass graves (total #):
– Treblinka II (15): https://archive.is/zz7UN
– Sobibor (18 + 6): https://archive.is/oQMJv + https://archive.is/CH6WS
– Belzec (33): https://archive.is/e96yU

Ten Simple Questions for bombsaway:
1 – Which of the 15 alleged Treblinka II mass graves can you forensically* prove contain the remains of at least 150 human beings (OR 750 lbs / 340 kg of remains): __?__
2 – Which of the 24 alleged Sobibor mass graves can you forensically* prove contain the remains of at least 150 human beings (OR 750 lbs / 340 kg of remains): __?__
3 – Which of the 33 alleged Belzec mass graves can you forensically* prove contain the remains of at least 150 human beings (OR 750 lbs / 340 kg of remains): __?__
4-6 – Same as 1-3 but instead 1,500 human beings (OR 7,500 lbs / 3,400 kg of remains): __?__
7-9 – Same as 1-3 but instead 15,000 human beings (OR 75,000 lbs / 34,000 kg of remains): __?__
10 – How many of the 72 alleged graves at T2+S+B can you forensically* prove contain at least one milligram of human remains: __?__

* to forensically prove the existence of a mass grave which is claimed to exist in a precisely known location, you must produce conclusive, bona fide, verifiable, photographically documented archaeological findings.

Again: it is not unreasonable to ask for photographs; all mass grave excavation guidelines insist that photographs must be taken of the mass graves. Some examples here:

Mass grave excavation guidelines / The “Mass graves don’t produce photographed bodies” lie
viewtopic.php?t=12889

Remember: It is ILLEGAL in many countries to claim that these camps were not “extermination camps” but somehow we have not been provided actual photographic evidence that these alleged “extermination camps” contain even one “huge mass grave” containing the burnt remains of at least 1,500 (1/10th of 1%) of the alleged victims. There is no logical reason to NOT excavate and photograph the [alleged] mass graves as it is a legal imperative that someone believe they exist.

U.S. vs. Prudden – U.S. Court of Appeals – Fifth Circuit – April 1970:
"Silence can only be equated with fraud where there is a legal or moral duty to speak or where an inquiry left unanswered would be intentionally misleading."

Remember: If the alleged Treblinka II, Sobibor, and Belzec “Holocausts” really did happen as alleged, then there actually would be numerous discernible extant huge mass graves filled with the remains of hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of people to prove it. So this is not a historical issue per se; this is clearly about – SCIENCE – and all that is being done here is the common-sense act of simply asking to see the alleged ‘archaeological proof’ that the true-believers insist is so ‘undeniable’

Remember also: it is ipso facto proof of fraud – if a scientist refuses to answer pertinent questions about their alleged / insinuated discoveries.

Disclaimer: "Deniers" (published revisionists) do not argue that there are 0 human remains at these sites. Common estimates seem to range from 2-5% of the claimed death tolls of the exterminationists; largely due to deaths in transit, executions (punishments for attempted revolts, escape attempts, euthanizing incurably ill, etc -- but not in "homicidal gas chambers")

[Otium]

from what I've seen there is a lot more evidence of a genocidal program than there is mass population transfer and internment

I don't think anyone can disagree that Jews were interned en masse.

Shootings are not necessarily "evidence" of a "genocidal program", unless you can prove such a program was concieved and made internally known to all those ordered to undertake it. There is no proof of Hitler's involvement at all, which is a key claim among exterminationists.

[curioussoul]

Correct me if I'm wrong: weren't there reports from within the Soviet Union immediately following the war that literally hundreds of thousands of Jews were stuck there with no way out? It's much more probable that these Jews were kept within this region and that news about their whereabouts were kept to an absolute minimum. Not to mention the well-documented fact of Stalin transporting Jews en masse to Siberia after the war. This would obviously be very conducive to Soviet efforts of painting the Germans as having genocided Jews within this region.

As far as I know Thomas Kues has demonstrated this thesis to be correct to a limited extent.

[bombsaway]

Lamprecht, I don't have much to add here. I've seen both arguments. I think the people doing digs at these sites should have done a better job of showing their work or have actually engaged with revisionists and brought in some sort of objective third party to verify the results. if you're saying their refusal to answer questions or properly evidence their work is proof of fraud, I disagree this is necessarily the case. It seems very possible to me that they aren't hiding anything, they just might not be properly incentivized to interact with revisionists in the way you desire.  

from what I've seen there is a lot more evidence of a genocidal program than there is mass population transfer and internment

I don't think anyone can disagree that Jews were interned en masse.

Shootings are not necessarily "evidence" of a "genocidal program", unless you can prove such a program was concieved and made internally known to all those ordered to undertake it. There is no proof of Hitler's involvement at all, which is a key claim among exterminationists.

to clarify I meant internment of the transferred population, specifically Korherr's 1.5 million

The Kube document is evidence of a genocidal program in Belarus, and shows that the civilian government, army, and SD was fully supportive of those measures. If they valued the lives of those Jews at all they could have sent them to Poland, or taken them out of the ghettos into more secure holding.

I wouldn't make the claim that Hitler was involved, and don't think his involvement was necessary in something like this.

[Lamprecht]

Lamprecht, I don't have much to add here. I've seen both arguments. I think the people doing digs at these sites should have done a better job of showing their work or have actually engaged with revisionists and brought in some sort of objective third party to verify the results. if you're saying their refusal to answer questions or properly evidence their work is proof of fraud, I disagree this is necessarily the case. It seems very possible to me that they aren't hiding anything, they just might not be properly incentivized to interact with revisionists in the way you desire.

The pits do not exist. For your conspiracy theory to be true, they must exist.
You dodged simple questions.

to clarify I meant internment of the transferred population, specifically Korherr's 1.5 million

The Kube document is evidence of a genocidal program in Belarus, and shows that the civilian government, army, and SD was fully supportive of those measures. If they valued the lives of those Jews at all they could have sent them to Poland, or taken them out of the ghettos into more secure holding.

I wouldn't make the claim that Hitler was involved, and don't think his involvement was necessary in something like this.

The Kube document, as explained, contradicts your position: viewtopic.php?p=107580#p107580

You have been exposed as defining normal actions taken during war as "genocide" - such as the bombing of civilians, a legal act.

Your previous thread claims that for 100s of thousands of Jews to have not been dumped into pits, we'd have documents saying exactly where they went and/or testimony from Jews detailing every single stop they took on the trains. That is false. However, if 100s of thousands of Jews were dumped into pits, the pits would still exist. They do not. You can't even answer simple questions about the pits.
In other words, the evidence that is not only "expected" to exist, but MUST exist, does not exist. Therefore, your conspiracy theory of "hundreds of thousands dumped into pits at 3 sites" must be rejected. It contradicts observable reality.

[hermod]

bombsaway wrote:
from what I've seen there is a lot more evidence of a genocidal program than there is mass population transfer and internment

Genocide doesn't mean killing. Genocide means the intentional elimination of a specific group of people by any means, including all kinds of non-deadly means. That's how Raphael Lemkin (the Zionist Jew who coined that word during WWII) and the UN defined a genocide.

One can genocide a group of people without killing anybody. And one can perpetrate a mass slaughter without perpetrating a genocide. A mass population transfer can be a genocide if it is aimed at the elimination of a specific group of people in a given territory. And a mass slaughter is not a genocide when it doesn't target a specific group of people and/or is not aimed at the elimination of a specific group of people.

In short, it is the intention & the [attempted or successful] extinction, not the bloodshed, that make the genocide.

[Hektor]

bombsaway wrote:
from what I've seen there is a lot more evidence of a genocidal program than there is mass population transfer and internment

Genocide doesn't mean killing. Genocide means the intentional elimination of a specific group of people by any means, including all kinds of non-deadly means. That's how Raphael Lemkin (the Zionist Jew who coined that word during WWII) and the UN defined a genocide.

One can genocide a group of people without killing anybody. And one can perpetrate a mass slaughter without perpetrating a genocide. A mass population transfer can be a genocide if it is aimed at the elimination of a specific group of people in a given territory. And a mass slaughter is not a genocide when it doesn't target a specific group of people and/or is not aimed at the elimination of a specific group of people.

In short, it is the intention & the [attempted or successful] extinction, not the bloodshed, that make the genocide.

It's about the intention to destroy an ethnic group. While that can be achieved by killing members of that group at a large scale, there is of course other means as well... And that would include cultural and psychological warfare.

While NS-Germany and several other Axis countries wanted to get rid of Jews in their territory. Their intention wasn't to destroy Jews as a group or to run cultural/psychological warfare against them as to destroy that group. That neither means that no Jews got killed of course. But that was for other reasons than genocide.

With the Holocaust Thesis it's even a more specific form of genocide. Gather all the Jews in trains and ship them to center were industrial style killing was taking place in gas chambers. That's in short the thesis they peddle. While they of course can demonstrate the deportation, they can not demonstrate that homicidal gassing has taken place. So what they use is flimsy circumstantial evidence and innuendo... And that's not proving, but deception.

[PrudentRegret]

Bombsaway simply can't answer these questions, so he retreats to a semantic debate over whether so-and-so was a "genocide." You know that the mainstream historigraphy, the Holocaust legend, is not simply the accusation of a genocide, it is an accusation of a specific criminal conspiracy with specific murder weapons and number of victims in precisely known locations.

Lamprecht, I don't have much to add here. I've seen both arguments. I think the people doing digs at these sites should have done a better job of showing their work or have actually engaged with revisionists and brought in some sort of objective third party to verify the results. if you're saying their refusal to answer questions or properly evidence their work is proof of fraud, I disagree this is necessarily the case. It seems very possible to me that they aren't hiding anything, they just might not be properly incentivized to interact with revisionists in the way you desire.  

"They should have done better", that's funny. They haven't excavated a single mass grave in any of the camps, where Bomsaway is claiming about 2 million people were murdered, but he doesn't find that to be a problem. He just thinks the investigators "should have done better, but oh well we all have to believe it anyway!"

It is inexcusable to not do a thorough forensic investigation at these alleged crime scenes- it's not just "they could have done a better job." It's not incompetency, it's malicious and it should cause any reasonable person to have significant doubt that what these investigators claimed actually happened.

[bombsaway]

The pits do not exist. For your conspiracy theory to be true, they must exist.

I agree, but I don't see evidence that they don't exist, they might or might not, just like mass resettlement of Polish might be real or not. I think the probability of them existing are higher though, based on me seeing a lot more evidence for a genocidal program than mass resettlement. Even if we discount all witness statements this seems to be the case. If you have additional evidence you want to show me I am open to looking at it.

They haven't excavated a single mass grave in any of the camps,

Correct me if I'm wrong but Kola claims to have extracted samples??

[Otium]

I agree, but I don't see evidence that they don't exist, they might or might not...

The evidence that they don't exist is that nobody has yet proved them to exist. In other words, the automatic assumption is that they simply don't exist, the burden of proof is on those who claim they do.

Do you see any evidence that you're not currently living in a virtual world which is so realistic it'd be nearly impossible to tell, and you have no way of knowing? Do you see any evidence that you're not currently being orbited by fourth diemensional beings which observe your life for fun? Of course not. This is all nonsense. You'd only make an illogical argument like "I don't see any evidence that this thing I've assumed with no evidence is untrue!" unless you're desperate to prove an a priori assumption.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Kola claims to have extracted samples??

Kola's samples prove the opposite of Holocaust orthodoxy claims: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13757&p=100584#p100584 Look him up in any Holocaust Handbook and in the Codoh Library.

[Otium]

The Kube document is evidence of a genocidal program in Belarus, and shows that the civilian government, army, and SD was fully supportive of those measures. If they valued the lives of those Jews at all they could have sent them to Poland, or taken them out of the ghettos into more secure holding.

I don't think they did value the lives of these Jews.

But that doesn't mean I believe they were indiscriminately killing them as apart of some organized genocidal scheme.

I think they undertook massive reprisals in some cases, and for obvious reasons this would be secret. You wouldn't want your enemies finding out about your deportations and where they were going where they would no longer be harmless. They could attack trainlines and sabotage the various camps created to facilitate the resettlement process. Secrecy is obvious and essential. You wouldn't want your own people finding out about such brutal methods either.

What they "could've done" in your opinion is irrelevant These pet theories do not become proof of your conclusion because the Germans didn't do what you'd think they should've done. It doesn't, and cannot, support your conclusion that they were being systematically killed.

The various Kube documents do not supply evidence of this at all. All of these documents cited and quoted in Mattogno et. al.'s various books never even evoked that possibility in my mind. Unless I haven't seen the right 'Kube document'. You have merely made this assertion without posting the document in full.

[Hektor]

I agree, but I don't see evidence that they don't exist, they might or might not...

The evidence that they don't exist is that nobody has yet proved them to exist. In other words, the automatic assumption is that they simply don't exist, the burden of proof is on those who claim they do.

Do you see any evidence that you're not currently living in a virtual world which is so realistic it'd be nearly impossible to tell, and you have no way of knowing? Do you see any evidence that you're not currently being orbited by fourth diemensional beings which observe your life for fun? Of course not. This is all nonsense. You'd only make an illogical argument like "I don't see any evidence that this thing I've assumed with no evidence is untrue!" unless you're desperate to prove an a priori assumption.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Kola claims to have extracted samples??

Kola's samples prove the opposite of Holocaust orthodoxy claims: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13757&p=100584#p100584 Look him up in any Holocaust Handbook and in the Codoh Library.

Indeed. One first needs to determine on whom the burden of proof resides. With a major accusation, it is on the accusers who have to proof the accusation. With a mass extermination program they'd have to proof that it indeed was planned and executed as the allege. In other words they would demonstrate that a number of people was indeed killed in the way they allege and that motive and intention of killing were as they allege. That's however not the case with the Holocaust. While there is agreement that Jews were to be removed from the Axis sphere of influence, the evidence doesn't show that there was a mass extermination program. There is also proof that false accusations were spread on purpose and that actually should increase the scrutiny on the accusations being made. But in effect the false accusations created a myth that actually lessened scrutiny and actually shifted the burden of proof in the minds of people.

This works, because people have no good idea how epistemology works or should work. They think it's OK if one can present a few snippets with shock and awe, add some testimony and then create a narrative from it. That way almost any story can be created from anything, if people are only prejudiced enough.

The story is however weak on its own. That's why perpetual pushing and promotion needs to take place. And that's why no rational debate can be allowed. There is of course Holocaustians that 'engage in debate', but they quickly demonstrate that they aren't seriously in a rational debate or enquiry. Because that would include that they would have to consider that there narrative may be wrong and contains untrue statements. Instead they resort to all kinds of deceptive and manipulative tactics like name calling, fallacies, appeals to authority, ad hominem attacks, eiegesis, assuming what needs to be proven, etc.

Interestingly I know several historians that realized that the Holocaust narrative is false or unproven on several key points. Especially the allegation of industrial mass killing using homicidal gas chambers. The evidence given for gas chambers is quite malicious. What is perfectly explained with public healthcare measures like showers, crematoria, Zyklon B for delousing, etc. Becomes evidence for mass extermination in the minds of the Holocaustians. And he wants others to believe this to. In fact they get obnoxious, when they realize other people don't believe what they believe. This is more of a cult like feature in this of course and it isn't the only one. The Holocaust also serves as an ideological justification device for otherwise unwise policy. One target is Nationalism, the other target is Christianity... To some extent other religions as well. There is of course conservatives and national politicians that profess belief in the Holocaust. Just as there are many Christians that do. But at the same time Israel Firsting and 'Christian Zionism' gets promoted with this.
And that way they are vested into ideology forcing them to accept preconceptions that are untrue. That's why they can't allow the untruth being exposed and processed in public discourse. The Holocaust must be true or our ideology is wrong. No debates allowed there, no other POV. Everything must be interpreted in line with the paradigm.

[bombsaway]

The evidence that they don't exist is that nobody has yet proved them to exist. In other words, the automatic assumption is that they simply don't exist, the burden of proof is on those who claim they do.

Do you see any evidence that you're not currently living in a virtual world which is so realistic it'd be nearly impossible to tell, and you have no way of knowing? Do you see any evidence that you're not currently being orbited by fourth dimensional beings which observe your life for fun? Of course not. This is all nonsense. You'd only make an illogical argument like "I don't see any evidence that this thing I've assumed with no evidence is untrue!" unless you're desperate to prove an a priori assumption.

I disagree with you here. I think that it is possible we're being orbited by fourth dimensional beings even though this has not been proven, or I can't actually see them. Maybe it could be demonstrated in a laboratory.

If the only evidence for the Holocaust was the archeological studies, I would agree with you, there would be no reason to believe in it, but the thing is there's other evidence (documentary and witness) of killings at extermination centers and of a general genocidal desire. I know we disagree but I find much of this evidence to be convincing.

Kola's samples prove the opposite of Holocaust orthodoxy claims: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13757&p=100584#p100584 Look him up in any Holocaust Handbook and in the Codoh Library.

I'll look into Holocaust Handbooks for sure about this as its something unfamiliar with (this may take a few days), but out of curiosity, if the core samples indicated substantial amounts of cremains would this change anything for you?

The various Kube documents do not supply evidence of this at all. All of these documents cited and quoted in Mattogno et. al.'s various books never even evoked that possibility in my mind. Unless I haven't seen the right 'Kube document'. You have merely made this assertion without posting the document in full.

I did post the document in full. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14816&start=120#p107544

The killing was systematic and total (all non-working Jews appear to have been killed, at least in Minskland), sometimes planned a month in advance, and had full support of the army, SD, and Kube himself (as governor of Belarus he was the highest local civilian authority). SD and Kube also voiced desire for employable Jews to be killed after their work was done.

What's your definition of a reprisal? I suppose if we're broadening the definition enough, the Holocaust in orthodox terms could be considered a reprisal action (for the Jews starting the war, bringing Bolshevism into the world, etc)

[Butterfangers]

If the only evidence for the Holocaust was the archeological studies, I would agree with you, there would be no reason to believe in it, but the thing is there's other evidence (documentary and witness) of killings at extermination centers and of a general genocidal desire. I know we disagree but I find much of this evidence to be convincing.

It looks like you aren't even trying to be honest, here. You completely disregard that some types of evidence take priority over others, as I have already explained to you (perhaps you missed it): viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14847#p107640

...if the core samples indicated substantial amounts of cremains would this change anything for you?

If that were to happen (which it definitely won't), we would need to understand precisely the chain of custody and the quality of analysis identifying "cremains" as a first step. Then we'd move onto: well, how many bodies does said core sample contain? One? Two? Was the location this sample was taken truly random (and can it be assumed to be representative of what could be found in other or surrounding areas)? Also recognize that---whatever your position, currently---all can agree that if the Revisionist narrative is, in fact, true, then there are some very powerful establishment figures and institutions seeking to perpetuate their fabrication, so this must be taken into account. There is proof of well-organized deception with the development of 'Holocaust' narratives (see: Katyn report with its 100 (!) official Soviet signatories, the Allied Buchenwald exhibit, numerous other propaganda promotions) by the same nations and establishment which are still in power (or descendant thereof) today. This is coupled with the fact that there is a LOT that happened to the locations in question at various AR camps (including but not limited to aerial bombing at some of the sites, if I recall correctly, around or surrounding the time of Soviet occupation). The great deal of time that has passed, alone, demands that much more is needed than a single core sample, especially if we are aiming to show evidence for even a significant fraction of the numbers alleged, which are extraordinary and for which, thus far, precisely zero (0) are proven. Given the importance of this narrative (whatever your position, wherever you are), it demands a complete and thorough, fully-documented and photographed and reasonably independent investigation with a diverse range of international observers present.

Ideally, DNA analyses might be attempted for any bone fragments which might appear to have avoided extreme temperatures and could still have some genetic material left (consider that DNA analysis was performed on nothing but bone fragments for victims of the 1995 Bosnian war in Srebrenica and they were able to identify many of them).

This is all obvious. When a crime occurs, you have a crime scene and a thorough forensic investigation must be conducted. There is a reason why every major police station has a crime lab and that it becomes involved in nearly every murder investigation. Yet we excuse this process when it's millions who are allegedly killed, apparently, because "we can trust the Jews, the Soviets, the British, etc. in their 'fair trial' against their most hated enemy of the prior decade."

The killing was systematic and total (all non-working Jews appear to have been killed, at least in Minskland), sometimes planned a month in advance, and had full support of the army, SD, and Kube himself (as governor of Belarus he was the highest local civilian authority). SD and Kube also voiced desire for employable Jews to be killed after their work was done.

What's your definition of a reprisal? I suppose if we're broadening the definition enough, the Holocaust in orthodox terms could be considered a reprisal action (for the Jews starting the war, bringing Bolshevism into the world, etc)

I also addressed this document (rather, Mattogno did), here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14847#p107640

You seem like someone, bombsaway, who was strong enough mentally to start asking questions but just not enough to adhere rigorously to logic and is instead falling back upon the comforting trance of establishment repetition and popular opinion. If you don't care enough about what is true to actually spend the time fully understanding the Revisionist narrative, you are going to keep ending up in the trap of "feeling" like the establishment case is stronger, not realizing (or not caring) that the only reason you feel this way is because you do not yet understand what Revisionists are actually saying (or the context for why they are saying it) on the matter. If you don't care to learn, you won't. Simple as.

[Otium]

if the core samples indicated substantial amounts of cremains would this change anything for you?

Probably not, though it would help the other side sound less unconvincing.

The problem with doing it now is that they've constructed this narrative from the beginning and looked to justify it later. At no point in the last 80 years has there been any responsible authority with the integrity to do the right thing from the start and presume innocence before giving a guilty verdict on the basis of the most thorough and vigorious attempts to invesitgate the claims with no priors. This was never done.

Even when they do sham invesitgations under the guise of authority, whether it be at Auschwitz, Treblinka, or Belzec, they do so looking to confirm prior biases. So no, even if they did a study (as they've poorly attempted to do in the past) to pass it off (in reality with meagre evidence) I would have a tough time believing them, because they had no credibility in the first place.

It also wouldn't account for the fact that they've claimed this was a state sanctioned genocide implicating the knowledge of the top brass even without having to provide evidence for it. The claim is that Hitler must've known, which is silly because Hitler didn't even know that certain foreign units in the military he was directing existed. Or we have alleged verbal "fuhrer orders", which are dubious, for as General Nikolaus von Vormann notes in his immediate post-war account of the last few weeks of the pre-war period (hence unrelated to bias regarding the claims of the Holocaust):

"At dinner [on August 26, 1939] I again sat at Hitler's table. Again he conducted the conversation, in which only Ribbentrop and Weizsäcker participated more lively, as good as alone. It revolved around military trifles of the present and experiences in the last war. To me they seemed trivial and empty, merely serving the purpose of relaxation. It was only later that I realized how dangerous these conversations were. Hitler was regarded as infallible in his environment, his words as revelations. They were passed on: "The Führer has said ...". Then, when passing through the instances, it became "The Fuehrer has ordered ...". "And against a Führer order there was no questioning, no contradiction."

Nikolaus von Vormann, So Begann der Zweite Weltkrieg: Zeitzeuge der Entscheidungen. Als Offizier bei Hitler 22 August 1939-1 Oktober 1939 (Leoni: Druffel-Verlag, 1988), pp. 44-45.

Any claim of a Fuhrer Order, is without basis and must inherently be treated with skepticism and not assumed to be true.

The problem with the hypothetical graves "in large quantities", is that everything which led to their existance would have to be clarified beyond doubt. At the very least it would have to be admitted this wasn't some state organized plan with Hitler at the top.

I did post the document in full. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14816&start=120#p107544

The killing was systematic and total (all non-working Jews appear to have been killed, at least in Minskland), sometimes planned a month in advance, and had full support of the army, SD, and Kube himself (as governor of Belarus he was the highest local civilian authority). SD and Kube also voiced desire for employable Jews to be killed after their work was done.

But again, this had nothing to do with a plan to "exterminate" Jews for simply being Jews, it had to do with eliminating the spread of the partisan movement, which as Kube explained:

“In all clashes with partisans in Byelorussia, it has been found that Jewry is the principal supporter of the partisan movement, both in former Poland and in the former Soviet part of the General District, together with the Polish resistance movement in the East and the Red Army in Moscow. As a result, the handling of Jewry in Byelorussia, in view of the threat to the entire economy, represents a prominently political issue which must consequently be tackled based, not on economic considerations, but on political ones.

Kube Letter to Hinrich Lohse, 31 July 1942, quoted in: Carlo Mattogno, The Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories: Genesis, Missions and Actions, Part 1: The Einsatzgruppen (Uckfield: Castle Hill Publishers, 2022), p. 80. cf. PS-3428. IMT, Vol. 32, p. 280.

The idea that lots of Jews were killed in connection with another action and another intention in mind doesn't allow anyone to reconstruct the facts to create a pet theory about a systematic intention to genocide an entire group of people. As grotesque as it is, I think Kube's comment later in the letter is interesting:

"I need the SD in one hundred percent action against the partisans and against the Polish resistance movement, both of which are using all the forces of the SD units, which are not predominantly strong."

PS-3428. IMT, Vol. 32, pp. 281-282.

Making the connection between jews and the fueling of the partisan movement then allows one to suspect that that the security police was looking to preempt the further growth of this movement by killing people straight up. Hence why Kube states:

"The danger that the partisans will be able to rely substantially on Jewry in the future will then no longer exist."

PS-3428. IMT, Vol. 32, p. 281.

This is why, as you say it was "sometimes planned a month in advance". Kube also makes it clear that the SD can't focus on the transporting of Jews out of Minsk when the SD is dealing with the partisan issue in White Ruthenia at the same time, they were stretched thin enough as it was:

"In addition to this unambiguous attitude towards Jewry, there is the heavy task for the SD in White Ruthenia of transporting new transports of Jews from the Reich to their destination again and again. This makes excessive demands on the material and spiritual strength of the men of the SD and takes them away from their tasks, which lie in the area of White Ruthenia itself."

PS-3428. IMT, Vol. 32, p. 281.

So clearly the intention was not to just kill whatever Jews fell into their midst, but to continue following the deportation operations. Hence why the letter is titled 'Partisanenbekämfung und Judenaktion im Generalbezirk Weißruthenien' (Partisan Combat and Jewish Action in the General District of White Ruthenia), this question of transports was considered apart of the 'Judenaktion' discussed in the second half of the letter which dealt with deportations, while the killing of Jews in connection to partisan warfare fell under the 'Partisanenbekämfung' part of the letter. If the Germans were aiming to just kill any and all Jews, these two things would simply be combined as one 'Judenaktion'. Though in practise it does seem to beg the question, for if all these Jews (so this letter says) are being killed why bother deporting them? Well, it seems from reading the letter that there was a difference between Jewish transports and Jews already in White Ruthenia caught up in the partisan movement, or in the grasp of that movement. And for one reason or another it was difficult to acually carry out deportations, so I suppose the decision was made to kill them so as to alleviate the tasks demanded of the security apparatus.

Even after the action was complete the Jews which Kube says were going to remain (they weren't literally killing all of them) because of their usefulness, Kube notes his personal preference was to kill them:

"Of course, it would be most preferable for me and the SD to finally eliminate Jewry in the General District of White Ruthenia after the economic claims of the Wehrmacht have ceased to exist."

PS-3428. IMT, Vol. 32, p. 281.

From this we can determine that the Jews which remained were not to be killed right after as, I'm sure, the exterminationists would assume since they claim the plan was to kill "all Jews". Yet Kube had to stress his own opinion, which would've been unecessary if that were the case.

What's your definition of a reprisal? I suppose if we're broadening the definition enough, the Holocaust in orthodox terms could be considered a reprisal action (for the Jews starting the war, bringing Bolshevism into the world, etc)

I suppose you could. Seems raucous to me. Yet still, this doesn't mean the "reprisals" - however you define the extent - was in connection with a plan to exterminate anyone.