The Ovens in the Camps are Incinerators Now

[Hannover]

Bob says:

It wasn´t my intention to point out all examples, I pointed out an example which is directly linked to our topic and AFAIK there are only two such documents, so I correctly used a word "every."

Then why make a false claim? BTW, I stand by my claims about the other document as well. Both of which contain absurd and unsupportable claims, hence they are bogus. You seem to wish the absurdities of the claims away, thinking that those that have been repeatedly been caught producing contradictory & very stupid documents in manufacturing their 'holocaust' would never produce very stupid, bogus 'documents'. Bizarre.

Edit - there is also another, but I didn´t see your comment about it so logically - is not included in my assertion since I said "from what I saw from your comments"

Huh? What "other"? Why bring up a mysterious "other" which I never commented on and is not relevant to this discussion.

Thank you for your explanation as if I was a newbie in revisionism, but can you answer my question which is related only to the documents in question?

Please read what I post. I explained the contradictory nature of the entire storyline, these two documents are no exception. Using your logic there should be no contradictions at all in the 'holocaust' narrative or documents. No doubt, the Hoess 'confession documents' are all real in your mind. Again, I suggest reading the rather copious amounts of contradictions all through the various 'holocaust' claims.

Yes, I did and Mattogno clearly explained that data are not real because ovens in question did not exist at Auschwitz, and data are at best unrealistic expectations on Prufer´s side whereas his expected figure for 8-muffle oven is absurd.

There is nothing about forgery from Mattogno´s side, quite the contrary, re-read please, and re-read the full statements, not separated words.

Bingo! The ovens did not exist, which means someone was very stupid in their manufacturing of a 'holocaust' document. Certainly Topf people would have known that these ovens did not exist at Auschwitz. That point supports mine.
Well, I pointed out Mattogno's descriptions in his summary which by all measure imply fabrication.

- Hannover

[Bob]

Then why make a false claim?

I am sorry, I do not see a false claim of mine.

Huh? What "other"? Why bring up a mysterious "other" which I never commented on and is not relevant to this discussion.

No, Is relevant to the discussion about ovens and capacity, courtesy of Carlo Mattogno:[1]

"Infolge des grossen Belages (125.000 Gefangene) wird ein Krematorium errichtet. Es enthält 5 Stück Muffelöfen mit je 3 Muffeln für 2 Mann, sodass in einer Stunde 60 Mann eingeäschert werden können"

(As a result of the sizeable occupants (125,000 prisoners), a Crematorium is being constructed. It contains 5 [crematory] muffel ovens each [oven] with 3 muffles for 2 men, so that in one hour 60 men could be cremated).

So without your comment and with applying of your logic, I can assume that this explanatory report is just another forgery, correct?

Please read what I post. I explained the contradictory nature of the entire storyline, these two documents are no exception. Using your logic there should be no contradictions at all in the 'holocaust' narrative or documents. No doubt, the Hoess 'confession documents' are all real in your mind. Again, I suggest reading the rather copious amounts of contradictions all through the various 'holocaust' claims.

Non sequitur. Please, answer my question, that´s all.

Bingo! The ovens did not exist, which means someone was very stupid in their manufacturing of a 'holocaust' document. Certainly Topf people would have known that these ovens did not exist at Auschwitz. That point supports mine.
Well, I pointed out Mattogno's descriptions in his summary which by all measure imply fabrication.

Again Non sequitur, when something do not exist does not mean that somebody cannot produce document with expectations about performance of such installations.

If you have read the document, you can clearly see that "at present 3 pcs. of double-muffles are in operation" and "5 pcs. triplemuffle ovens with a daily capacity of 800 are now under construction" and finally "Today and in a few days the 2 pcs. 8-muffle ovens deviated from Mogilev with a capacity of 800 per day each will be shipped."

So as you said, people in Topf knew exactly that there are three two-muffle ovens, five three-muffle ovens are under constrrution (KII), and they knew about 2 eight-muffle ovens dispatched from Mogilev and were later installed in KIV-V, so this invalidated your point. Mattogno´s analysis does not imply fabrication.


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Notes

[1]"Erläuterungsbericht Zum Vorentwurf für den Neubau des Kriegsgefangenenlagers der Waffen-SS, Auschwitz O/S."(explanatory report of the preliminary draft for the new construction of the prisoner of war camp of the Waffen-SS, Auschwitz O/S), October 30, 1941. TCIDK, 502-1-233, p. 20.

[Hannover]

Bob:

Again, I answered your question, but you ignore it. Not my problem.

you said:

Again Non sequitur, when something do not exist does not mean that somebody cannot produce document with expectations about performance of such installations.

Non-sequitur? Are you sure of the meaning of that term? My responses do follow logically. A Topf engineer, unless coerced, would never claim such specific numbers. I'm sorry, but your response above reads like sophistry. Producing a document about a non-existent cremation facility and it's claimed performance numbers is patently fraudulent. There are no "expectations' in his alleged statement, but concise numbers. In fact as Engel showed earlier in the thread, the claimed numbers are not even reasonably close as one should expect from a Topf cremation engineer.

Again, I answered your question. Now answer mine:
Do you think the Hoess 'confession documents' were honestly compiled?
Do you think the famous aerial photos discussed at this forum have been tampered with?
Do you accept Brian Renk's assessment of the forged Franke-Grisch Report?
How about the renowned gas vans 'document' that has been exposed at this forum?
How about the pictures of the alleged 'gas vans'? Do you think those are real homicidal gas vans?
How about the non-existent 'excavations' of Jewish corpses?
I have more, but I assume you get the point.

Skullduggery is rampant within the 'holocaust' storyline, I'm surprised you do not see it.

- Hannover

[Bob]

I see this leads nowhere and since I have just finished one debate with none other than R.M., I will not continue in something similar again in such a short time.

Cheers.

[Moderator]

There were some particularly personal posts in this thread which I deleted. I have left the rest.
M1

[ginger]

to Hannover - Having just read Mattogno’s article on the cremation ovens of Auschwitz, and after perusing the related discussion threads, I have begun to read more on this thread. It will take time to digest it all and you have contributed greatly, but I want to take issue with a post by you, the second post, where you quote “a fellow revisionists article about cremation” which at the end states:

“Unless someone comes up with real SCIENTIFIC data to contradict the British Cremation Society, the real conclusions are that:
. . .

3) The real rate of burn at the Birkenau crematoria was about 500 a day."

Mattogno in his article submits that the ovens at Birkenau operated 1164 days, taking into account the down time. Using the figure 500 a day would result in 582,000 cremations. Apart from the fuel available, the need to re-brick the ovens would limit the number of cremations. Mattogno uses a maximum 3000 cremation per muffle/oven before an extensive overhaul is needed and with 46 muffles he calculated a maximum of 138,000 cremations at Birkenau. (He argues the ovens at Birkenau were never overhauled.) If you divide 138,000 by 1164 days and then by 46 muffles you get less than 3 corpses a day. This is in line with Ivan Lagace’s estimate of 4 a day (184 divided by 46). Of course 3 a day and 4 a day are averages, but these numbers give an entirely different picture of the activity at Birkenau. 500 a day would be too hectic and too impossible.

[ginger]

I should have said 500 a day/ 46 muffles, or a little over 10 corpses a day, compared to 3 and 4 a day. 3 and 4 a day gives a different picture of the activity at Birkenau. In 1944 krema IV was "mothballed". Mattogno had figured that in with his number of days in service but not in his 138,000 figure, so the estimates aren't perfect.