BA's case for orthodoxy

[bombsaway]

Here's something that should put the nail in the coffin of BA's claims. From Bungled: “The Destruction of the European Jews”—Raul Hilberg’s Failure to Prove National-Socialist “Killing Centers.” His Misrepresented Sources and Flawed Methods by Carlo Mattogno on page 70:

Hilberg claims that the deportations of Western Jews to the East were intended to destroy them, even before the “killing centers” began their operations. Already on p. 213, he postulates this assertion as a proven fact:

“In October 1941, mass deportations began in the Reich. They did not end until the destruction process was over. The object of these movements was not emigration but the annihilation of the Jews.”

This assertion is refuted by the evacuation order given by Hitler himself, which appears in a note of October 24, 1941 regarding a “Meetings in Berlin on October 23, 1941 at [Office] IV B 4, chaired by SS-Sturmbannführer Eichmann.” The document with the subject “Führer order. (Evacuation of 50,000 Jews from the Old Reich including Ostmark [Austria] and the Protectorate of Bohemia-Moravia)” starts with the following sentence: “In the period from Nov. 1 until Dec. 4, 50,000 Jews are evacuated from the aforementioned areas to Minsk and Riga.” That such an “evacuation” did not aim at extermination is demonstrated by the fact that, according to the note under discussion, Jews over 60 years old as well as the sick and infirm, regardless of age, were exempt from deportation, among others.

If BA is right that it was impossible to transport them to the east, then the document here is wrong. And it's not wrong by covering up killings. The deportations exclude the possibility that they are killed, since it they would have deported everyone as well as the fact that they wouldn't have been killed in the Polish camps, as Minsk and Riga are to the east of the Reinhardt camps. He can't hide behind "where did they go". According to the document, they were transported alive and well. If you don't believe these Jews were deported and ended up alive and well, then you are just rejecting the document. Which is fine, but then don't appeal to what documents say to "prove" that killings happened.

I never claimed that "it was impossible to transport them to the east", rather that doing so would necessarily create a large evidence trail. That German/Austrian Jews were deported east mostly in 1941 is backed by probably thousands of documents and witness testimonies. I've quoted a couple in my short time here. You should read up on the timeline for Action Reinhardt, the camps weren't fully operational until late summer 1942. Mattogno states this in the first sentence of your quote, so you should be more careful.

Mattogno is criticizing Hilberg for stating the objective of the transport of Reich Jews East was to kill them. This is a fair criticism, though in Hilberg's defense many of them were killed soon after their arrival according to documents.

Ultimately according to documents, which most historians including Mattogno don't discount, the non-employable German/Austrian Jews sent east were killed en masse. This is evident in the Kube report which I quoted earlier on this forum, and which Mattogno has covered in his books and does not dispute the authenticity of.

https://phdn.org/histgen/einsatzgruppen ... 10742.html

In Minsk-city, approximately 10,000 Jews were liquidated on July 28 and 29, including 6,000 Russian Jews, mostly old people, women and children; the rest made up of Jews unable to work. Most of them had been deported to Minsk last November, by order of the Führer, from Vienna, Brünn, Bremen and Berlin.

[hermod]

They'd had to have a comprehensive forensic report of course long ago.

What would this report have to show to evidence 400k + bodies destroyed at Belzec?

A geophysical anomaly, observed and attested by exterminationist & revisionist historians and geologists, consistent in size and nature (i.e. quantitatively and qualitatively) with such a titanic grave-emptying disturbance, that is, the same kind of things as the ones postulated about the soil of Waterloo in Belgium, but much bigger and deeper.

Mystery of Waterloo’s dead soldiers to be re-examined by academics

Modern techniques to test traditional explanation that most bones from 1815 battle were ground into powder for fertiliser

It was an epic battle that has been commemorated in words, poetry and even a legendary Abba song, but 207 years to the day after troops clashed at Waterloo, a gruesome question remains: what happened to the dead?

While tens of thousands of men and horses died at the site in modern-day Belgium, few remains have been found, with amputated legs and a skeleton unearthed beneath a car park south of Brussels among the handful of discoveries.

The long-held explanation is grisly: according to reports made soon after the conflict, the bones were collected, pulverised and turned into fertiliser for agricultural use.

“It is certainly a singular fact that Great Britain should have sent out multitudes of soldiers to fight the battles of this country upon the continent of Europe, and should then import the bones as an article of commerce to fatten her soil!” the London Observer reported in November 1822.

Now a battlefield expert has said while the theory is credible, fresh fieldwork is needed to investigate such claims.

Writing in the Journal of Conflict Archaeology, Prof Tony Pollard, director of the centre for battlefield archaeology at the University of Glasgow, has collated vivid descriptions and images from those who visited Waterloo in the aftermath of the 1815 battle, which pitted Napoleon’s forces against a British-led coalition and a Prussian-led one.

“Bodies were buried in some places in their hundreds in big pits, but in other places they were buried singly or in small groups – the graves were likened to molehills stretched out across the fields,” said Pollard.

Now, as lead academic and an archaeological director at the charity Waterloo Uncovered, Pollard and his team are poised to return to the battlefield next month to continue their archaeological survey, aided by the eyewitness testimony.


“Even if the stories of bone removal are true, I don’t expect every grave to have been emptied, and we have few clues to the whereabouts of surviving graves,” Pollard said. “It would be really interesting to find evidence of pits from which bones have been removed – it’s the sort of disturbance that would produce a geophysical anomaly.”

Among other work, the team will commence a battlefield-wide survey using geophysical techniques such as electromagnetic methods.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... -academics

[fireofice]

Here's something that should put the nail in the coffin of BA's claims. From Bungled: “The Destruction of the European Jews”—Raul Hilberg’s Failure to Prove National-Socialist “Killing Centers.” His Misrepresented Sources and Flawed Methods by Carlo Mattogno on page 70:

Hilberg claims that the deportations of Western Jews to the East were intended to destroy them, even before the “killing centers” began their operations. Already on p. 213, he postulates this assertion as a proven fact:

“In October 1941, mass deportations began in the Reich. They did not end until the destruction process was over. The object of these movements was not emigration but the annihilation of the Jews.”

This assertion is refuted by the evacuation order given by Hitler himself, which appears in a note of October 24, 1941 regarding a “Meetings in Berlin on October 23, 1941 at [Office] IV B 4, chaired by SS-Sturmbannführer Eichmann.” The document with the subject “Führer order. (Evacuation of 50,000 Jews from the Old Reich including Ostmark [Austria] and the Protectorate of Bohemia-Moravia)” starts with the following sentence: “In the period from Nov. 1 until Dec. 4, 50,000 Jews are evacuated from the aforementioned areas to Minsk and Riga.” That such an “evacuation” did not aim at extermination is demonstrated by the fact that, according to the note under discussion, Jews over 60 years old as well as the sick and infirm, regardless of age, were exempt from deportation, among others.

If BA is right that it was impossible to transport them to the east, then the document here is wrong. And it's not wrong by covering up killings. The deportations exclude the possibility that they are killed, since it they would have deported everyone as well as the fact that they wouldn't have been killed in the Polish camps, as Minsk and Riga are to the east of the Reinhardt camps. He can't hide behind "where did they go". According to the document, they were transported alive and well. If you don't believe these Jews were deported and ended up alive and well, then you are just rejecting the document. Which is fine, but then don't appeal to what documents say to "prove" that killings happened.

I never claimed that "it was impossible to transport them to the east", rather that doing so would necessarily create a large evidence trail. That German/Austrian Jews were deported east mostly in 1941 is backed by probably thousands of documents and witness testimonies. I've quoted a couple in my short time here. You should read up on the timeline for Action Reinhardt, the camps weren't fully operational until late summer 1942. Mattogno states this in the first sentence of your quote, so you should be more careful.

Mattogno is criticizing Hilberg for stating the objective of the transport of Reich Jews East was to kill them. This is a fair criticism, though in Hilberg's defense many of them were killed soon after their arrival according to documents.

Ultimately according to documents, which most historians including Mattogno don't discount, the non-employable German/Austrian Jews sent east were killed en masse. This is evident in the Kube report which I quoted earlier on this forum, and which Mattogno has covered in his books and does not dispute the authenticity of.

https://phdn.org/histgen/einsatzgruppen ... 10742.html

In Minsk-city, approximately 10,000 Jews were liquidated on July 28 and 29, including 6,000 Russian Jews, mostly old people, women and children; the rest made up of Jews unable to work. Most of them had been deported to Minsk last November, by order of the Führer, from Vienna, Brünn, Bremen and Berlin.

Thanks for bringing up the Kube document. It demonstrates that non genocidal deportations were happening in the summer of 1942, as explained here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14850#p107663

[Hektor]

They'd had to have a comprehensive forensic report of course long ago.

What would this report have to show to evidence 400k + bodies destroyed at Belzec?

Quite a lot.
Bear in mind what would be necessary to 'destroy 400k bodies'. And that must be somewhere. Given that those asserted to have done is didn't have access to magic. Instead of showing us that, they don't do that. Rather make assertions and then show some trinkets to fool people.

But wouldn't they have neutral experts to do this to begin with? It seems they never even bothered to do this. Just assume some figure of people killed (e.g. 400.000), assert it over and over again and then expect everyone to believe it. This is how swindles work.

[bombsaway]

What would this report have to show to evidence 400k + bodies destroyed at Belzec?

A geophysical anomaly, observed and attested by exterminationist & revisionist historians and geologists, consistent in size and nature (i.e. quantitatively and qualitatively) with such a titanic grave-emptying disturbance, that is, the same kind of things as the ones postulated about the soil of Waterloo in Belgium, but much bigger and deeper.

The claim is not that the remains were converted into fertilizer but rather mixed with sand and deposited in the graves. They would then be detectable with core samples or simple excavation.

What would this report have to show to evidence 400k + bodies destroyed at Belzec?

Quite a lot.
Bear in mind what would be necessary to 'destroy 400k bodies'. And that must be somewhere. Given that those asserted to have done is didn't have access to magic. Instead of showing us that, they don't do that. Rather make assertions and then show some trinkets to fool people.

But wouldn't they have neutral experts to do this to begin with?

What exactly? You guys still aren't being specific. How many of the graves do they need to excavate? How much ash do they need to pull up to photograph or study? Do they have to separate the cremains from the sand they were mixed with? Who would be neutral experts exactly? Are revisionists required to be on the scene and monitoring the excavations, or actually taking part?

Thanks for bringing up the Kube document. It demonstrates that non genocidal deportations were happening in the summer of 1942, as explained here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14850#p107663

I would call the deportations genocidal at this point, since the policy in the area they are being taken to (the stated desire of the SS and highest civilian authority) is to kill non-employable Jews, and that after their work is no longer needed even employable Jews should be killed.

Nevertheless after this period (Summer 42, coinciding with the activation of all the Reinhardt camps and the mass dissolution of Polish ghettos) there is next to no evidence of further deportations to this area except for Jews being used for forced labor.

[Hektor]

Sorry, but you won't get a recipe from me here.

To proof a person has been killed, what would you need to find? Well, a corpse of a person or remains. And, well you'd have to prove that this person has been killed deliberately so you could go to a murder accusation. And that means that you would have to exclude any other feasible explanation.

But what do they have for the accusation relating to Belzec? Only a 'where did they go, if they weren't gassed, there?'
In other words: They got nothing to legitimately construe a mass murder allegation as they allege. And what does this make them? Quite malicious slanderers that peddle false accusations. They are the true criminals in the story. But since they managed to make a substantial amount of people believe in their lies, they get away with this. Until now that is.

[fireofice]

I would call the deportations genocidal at this point, since the policy in the area they are being taken to (the stated desire of the SS and highest civilian authority) is to kill non-employable Jews, and that after their work is no longer needed even employable Jews should be killed.

Nevertheless after this period (Summer 42, coinciding with the activation of all the Reinhardt camps and the mass dissolution of Polish ghettos) there is next to no evidence of further deportations to this area except for Jews being used for forced labor.

Nope, the genocidal interpretation has been refuted:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14850#p107663

According to this document, there were people deported that were not killed.

[bombsaway]

I would call the deportations genocidal at this point, since the policy in the area they are being taken to (the stated desire of the SS and highest civilian authority) is to kill non-employable Jews, and that after their work is no longer needed even employable Jews should be killed.

Nevertheless after this period (Summer 42, coinciding with the activation of all the Reinhardt camps and the mass dissolution of Polish ghettos) there is next to no evidence of further deportations to this area except for Jews being used for forced labor.

Nope, the genocidal interpretation has been refuted:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14850#p107663

According to this document, there were people deported that were not killed.

Can you quote from that document where they say non-employable Jews are being maintained anywhere? (the orthodox story is that the Nazis didn't kill Jews fit for work, so if this is what you are talking about I agree, though I think it is still genocide)

Otium's main argument in the link is that the Nazis would have killed Reich Jews locally instead of sending them off to the USSR, therefore they weren't killed there. This has nothing to do with the document, and is speculation.

The fact is a killing apparatus existed in USSR near Minsk, and Germans would have reason to do their dirty work there instead of in their own country. Maly Trostenets was a contained extermination center in the vein of the larger death camps which would soon open in Poland, though killing was conducted either with bullets or gas vans. Reich Jews were brought to this site and killed and there's documentation of this, as well as documentation of transported Jews being liquidated on arrival.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... tml#_doc12

To the RSHA. – ROEM. 2 D 3 A - Berlin. Secret State Matter.
Re. S.-Wagon.

At the commander of the SIPO a. the SD. Belarus a transport of Jews arrives weekly which is to be subjected to a special treatment. The 3 S-wagons existing there do not suffice for this purpose. I request the allocation of another S-wagon (5 tons). Furthermore I request at once to also send 20 exhaust hoses for the existing 3 S-wagons (2 Daimond, 1 Saurer), as those available are already leaky.

The Comm. of SIPO a. the SD. Ostland Roem. 1 T – 126/42 GRS. [secret state matter] A. sgd.: Truehess. HStuf. [correct: Truehe, SS HStuf.]
Task:
1) When can the deployment of another S-wagon be expected?
2) Are spare exhaust hoses available, on order or when deliverable?
3) submit draft for answer

and here https://littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.com/ ... t/#more-44

“On 11 May a transport with Jews (1000 pieces) arrived in Minsk from Vienna and was immediately transferred from the train station to the above mentioned grave. To that end the train was deployed directly to the grave”[1]

There's nothing for non-employable Jewish populations being maintained anywhere in Belarus around this time period or after. The ghettos were dissolved and turned into labor camps (eg Minsk which held 80-100k and by August 42 was down to 9k according to Kube document) , so they weren't being kept there. Maybe you can argue 'we don't know what happened to the deported non-employable Jews', but I've seen no evidence for your position "that they were not killed". In a sense this is a microcosm for the entire debate. One side has evidence for their position, the other side doesn't.

[Archie]

That's because it takes far more work and effort to complete such a study. And once people weight in the consequences of putting their name to something that shows the Holocaust to be a swindle, they may reconsider. Simply because this would mean they would never be hired again by the majority of their potential companies, which are corporate organizations who may not want to be associated with people their prime investors do not like.

According to Graf, Krege worked for days without interruption and was able to scan " every square meter of ground in the area of the alleged mass graves".

He already put his name to the story, claimed that the grounds were undisturbed etc. He simply never published anything other than one scan, and offered no explanation here.

The evidence is that these sites have been excavated and to date no photographic evidence of mass graves exists. They would have for sure taken these photos if they had found them to shut the deniers up once and for all, but it hasn't happened.

The claims re Belzec from Kola is around 20,000 cubic meters of grave space discovered in the part of the camp that were studied (Kola did not survey the full grounds). The aspect of these graves most relevant to the extermination story is the presence of cremains, which Kola claims to have found a lot of ( in most of the graves, usually mixed with sand, arranged in layers with dirt in between).

What exactly would they have to photograph to convince you ("shut the deniers up once and for all") that 400k or more bodies were destroyed here?

Is your 20,000 cubic meter number just the total volume for the samples with remains or does it account for the fact that many of the samples had thin layers of ash? Does it account for the wood ash?

Also, you can't just magically skip ahead to pure cremains at the end. Remember, the 600,000 Jews had to be buried first. If we assume for example 8 bodies per square meter, this would have occupied an area of perhaps some 75,000 square meters. In the Kola maps, the vast majority of the samples are listed as "No Disruptions - Natural Strata." So then where were these original graves? If you left those bodies to decompose for several months and then dug them back up with machinery, realistically I would be surprised if there were no traces of those original graves. Without question there would be soil disruptions, but also probably body parts, etc.

You are saying that the amount ash found "confirms" the story (which almost seems constructed to be harder to falsify), but it could just as easily be said to "confirm" or be consistent with a far smaller number of bodies.

[hermod]

Nevertheless after this period (Summer 42, coinciding with the activation of all the Reinhardt camps and the mass dissolution of Polish ghettos) there is next to no evidence of further deportations to this area except for Jews being used for forced labor.

One needs to know that the train records of those deportations were highly centralized and that the whole paper trail was kept on site at the Reinhardt camps. That was demonstrated in July 1944, when a single Soviet bomb destroyed all the train records of Belzec. Knowing this, one realizes how easy it was for the Soviets to destroy the railway documents debunking their own anti-German atrocity propaganda about those camps, i.e. all the outbound train records of the Reinhardt camps. Are we supposed to believe that the Bolsheviks were stupid enough to leave untouched a few piles of German documents debunking their own propaganda lies? Far-fetched and absurd if I'm asked...

From the article "What Happened To The Inmates Of The Aktion Reinhardt Transit Camps Of Treblinka, Belzec & Sobibor in Poland? Can The Allies Version Be Trusted?" by John Wear:

Holocaust historians frequently state that a mass of documentation would exist if Jews were transported from the Aktion Reinhardt camps to “the East”. Since such massive documentation doesn’t exist, they claim the Jews had to have been exterminated in the Aktion Reinhardt camps. These historians fail to acknowledge that the Soviet Union could have easily destroyed the documentation related to transports from the Aktion Reinhardt camps.

https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2019/03/ ... e-trusted/

And in one case, that did happen. One Soviet bomb in July 1944 destroyed the entire documentation about transports of Jews to [and from] Belzec!

Exterminationist sources agree on this:

the old railway station in Belzec. All transports with Jews deported to the death camp arrived at this station. Documentation about the transports, notably the transfer telegrams, was also kept in this building. In July 1944, two weeks before the Soviet army entered Belzec, the railway station was bombed by a single Soviet airplane. A German transport loaded with ammunition was standing in the station and was destroyed. Because of the exploding ammunition, all structures within a radius of about 250 m., including the building of railway station, were completely demolished. It was at this time that the original documentation about the transports was lost.

https://archive.is/hg8iy

The railway documents were all destroyed on July 4 1944, when a lone Russian bomber dropped one solitary bomb over Belzec which just happened to hit an ammunition train standing in the station. The Belzec railway station was completely destroyed together with all the records.

https://archive.is/IZMJi

Immediately after the war, the various commissions investigating the number of victims murdered in the death camps could only estimate the numbers, which were based on an average of 100 persons to each wagon. If, for example, we take the Kolomyja transport of September 10,1942, we know that 51 freight wagons were made available and that 8,205 victims were counted-off, with so many to a wagon an average of 165. The Bill of Lading says just this, which is corroborated by the security personnel who loaded and escorted the train from Kolomyja to Belzec. The original reports submitted by the escorting security personnel of the Kolomyja transport have survived for scrutiny Even so, apart from this written evidence, we have no other documentation from the railway authorities to verify or corroborate this. To add to the difficulties for any analysis, Belzec railway station was blown up and all records destroyed in July 1944, when a lone Soviet aircraft dropped a single bomb on an ammunition train parked in the railway sidings.

https://archive.is/narGq

The destruction of the railway station may well be the reason why no railroad documentation of the transports to Belzec has apparently survived.

The Belzec Death Camp: History, Biographies, Remembrance, p. 205, by Chris Webb. https://books.google.com/books?id=Add1C ... 22&f=false

viewtopic.php?p=91912#p91912


See also:
Inbound train records, but no outbound records. Why?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2355&start=45#p104449

[hermod]

What would this report have to show to evidence 400k + bodies destroyed at Belzec?

A geophysical anomaly, observed and attested by exterminationist & revisionist historians and geologists, consistent in size and nature (i.e. quantitatively and qualitatively) with such a titanic grave-emptying disturbance, that is, the same kind of things as the ones postulated about the soil of Waterloo in Belgium, but much bigger and deeper.

The claim is not that the remains were converted into fertilizer but rather mixed with sand and deposited in the graves. They would then be detectable with core samples or simple excavation.

Yes, I know that. But that doesn't exclude the existence or lack of a geophysical anomaly similar to that of Waterloo. More evidence, more certainty.

[Hektor]

....
Yes, I know that. But that doesn't exclude the existence or lack of a geophysical anomaly similar to that of Waterloo. More evidence, more certainty.

In other words: They did not do any investigation that could warrant the accusation of hundreds of thousands being killed there.
And now some Holocaustians try to salvage the story. But instead they produce more evidence against the accusation.

That there may have been dead people buried or cremated in the surrounding era is of course not in dispute. So the evidence of this that can possibly found doesn't support the accusation in anyway. They would have to do better. And perhaps first apologize for have lied so long to us in a slanderous manner.

[hermod]

....
Yes, I know that. But that doesn't exclude the existence or lack of a geophysical anomaly similar to that of Waterloo. More evidence, more certainty.

In other words: They did not do any investigation that could warrant the accusation of hundreds of thousands being killed there.
And now some Holocaustians try to salvage the story. But instead they produce more evidence against the accusation.

That there may have been dead people buried or cremated in the surrounding era is of course not in dispute. So the evidence of this that can possibly found doesn't support the accusation in anyway. They would have to do better. And perhaps first apologize for have lied so long to us in a slanderous manner.

You're right. They should do that but will rather seemingly keep sticking to their reverse burden of proof for obvious reasons.

[Hektor]

They have to explain 'why they didn't do that', but still insisted on what happened and that with fantastic figures.
But then they'd have apologize for making claims, making accusations based on hearsay evidence alone. And that would sooner or later get them into a position, where they don't have the 'moral highground' they like to use to impress and manipulate people with. That's why they have to go on as usual... insist on dogmatic statements and bring suspicion on anyone that questions or 'deny' their dogmatics on that part of history.

[bombsaway]

The claim is not that the remains were converted into fertilizer but rather mixed with sand and deposited in the graves. They would then be detectable with core samples or simple excavation.

Yes, I know that. But that doesn't exclude the existence or lack of a geophysical anomaly similar to that of Waterloo. More evidence, more certainty.

As far as I know nothing was detected around Waterloo. Here's the definition of geophysical anomaly: "Area where geophysical properties (e.g. radiometric, magnetic, electromagnetic, gravity) differ from surrounding areas and which may be the result of mineralisation."

So yes, Sobibor grave sites would seem to qualify (grass coloration)

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/ ... mmente.jpg

Obviously though geophysical anomaly visible from the surface isn't proof of body destruction, for that samples need to be extracted and analyzed.