Gas-tight doors and the German Air Raid Shelter Technology

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

I suggest that Turpitz read my essays and website, slowly and carefully. The following is from my homepage, column right:

The Nazis could have done It – the Technology for Mass Murder was there

Mass gassings were technically possible–and the Germans were more than capable technically of committing such deeds, just as all modern industrial nations are–but NOT by using the absurd and clumsy methods alleged in the Holocaust literature. The alleged gassing methods fail if one simply examines them scientifically. Even with the most generous allowances for “errors” (major, as well as minor) on the part of self-styled “eyewitnesses”–the gassing claims, including those involving so-called “gas vans,” are simply impossible. There are no exceptions.

Ironically, the German facilities and technology which existed and which could have been used for mass murder have never been implicated in any way by the accusers. Throughout German-occupied Europe poison gas was actually used as fuel (producer gas or Holzgas with as much as 35% CO) to propel nearly all civilian motor vehicles in order to save gasoline for the military. Every historical work on the subject, even on World War 2 generally, is totally oblivious to the existence of that enormously important technology. Producer gas was a major feature of German survival throughout the war–and, it would have been ideal for mass murder.

In addition, the Germans also had huge, superbly designed gas chambers in strategic locations such as Budapest and other major cities in eastern Europe for fumigating entire railroad trains with cyanide and Zyklon-B. Those facilities were vitally important to prevent typhus-infected lice from being shipped to the west with returning soldiers, or workers, or Jews. Typhus was endemic in many parts of eastern Europe, especially Poland. Those gas chambers would have also been perfect for mass murder–but, they are never even mentioned in any of the tales of mass gassing. Also, hundreds of thousands of German civilian bombshelters were “gas-tight” by law and would have been ideal for suffocating victims trapped inside—without any poison gas, although gas could have been added easily enough. The existence of all such facilities was widely and openly discussed in great detail in the German technical literature of that period and is readily available today in major libraries throughout the world–but the “historians,” including those who specialize in “holocaust studies,” have simply not bothered to use it if they even looked at it. Shame on them all! They have not done their homework!

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[ASMarques]

ASMarques wrote the following earlier:

If you're implying that a pile of thousands of just gassed bodies would not present a practical impossibility for the procedures described, it seems to me that you're the one talking nonsense. Just think of the unavoidable spaces between the bodies that would trap small amounts of lethal gas. No more is really needed to see the absurdity. We're not talking of a previously emptied building being fumigated then aerated for a long period etc. We're talking about a maze of thousands of bodies. Picture that in your mind.

I am NOT merely "implying that a pile of thousands of gassed bodies would not present a practical impossibility," I am saying that as loudly as I can and I will keep repeating it.

Of course "a pile of thousands of gassed bodies" per se is not a practical impossibility, (though it is very much an impractical possibility).

Let me put it this way: you gas and store away 25 victims a day for, say, three months, then you take them out of the cold chamber, you put them together into a pile, and there you are: you have demonstrated that "a pile of thousands of gassed bodies" is indeed a (very impractical in everyday context) possibility. Or you have, say, a terrorist attack in some Japanese industrial works, resulting in two thousand dead, you cordon off and isolate the crime scene, you send in the emergency personnel with the necessary washing or decontamination equipment and all due precautions, you retrieve the bodies during the course of several days and then, to make your point, you make a pile with them. Again there you are: "a pile of thousands of gassed bodies" is possible. All you have to do to bring about that possibility is... can you guess it?... a believable environment and a plausible sequence of events.

Well, is that what the witnesses to the "Holocaust" claim? Is that equivalent to the round-the-clock manipulation of thousands of gassed bodies in the Auschwitz crematories as depicted here:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2651

Of course not. And of course, we agree on this. What the witnesses and indeed the "Holocaust scholars" claim, as we both know, is (a broadly consensual definition follows that, of course, will present no novelty to you): "a vast German conspiracy to secretly exterminate an entire race in the hope future historians would be at a loss to determine what had happened to it, resulting in approximately 6 million murdered Jews, with no procedural plan, no written orders at any level, no assigned method of mass murder or bureaucratic control, leaving it to the imagination of a whole bunch of telepathic improvisers who came up with mass execution by such methods as steam, electrocution, non-toxic Diesel exhaust and Zyklon B pesticide, not leaving the slightest vestige of such a carnage accessible to forensic examination in any of its precisely located sites, but leaving instead survivors galore from such alleged 'extermination centers' as Auschwitz, still alive more than 60 years later."

This is what the "Holocaust" is claimed to be, so what's the point of insisting that, yes, people can be gassed and, yes, piles of gassed bodies can exist, if we are ignoring everything else that is being claimed "Holocaust"-wise, indeed the very events resulting in the alleged piles of bodies?

Marques' qualification "for the procedures described" is vague.

Of course it is! The absurd procedures are already extremely vague in the original descriptions. See Höss, the Auschwitz trials, Stangl/Sereny etc. What did you expect of impossibilities? If you enter into details (as sometimes happens: e.g. Nyisly) the comical angle of the absurdities you're claiming only becomes more apparent. You cannot give any precise details of miraculous events. You can only say "they happened."

If you say: "in 1917, in Fatima, after an outpouring of rain, the sun danced in the sky, it rained perfumed petals, and clothes dried instantaneously" you don't expect me to contradict that sort of allegation by giving the detailed inner workings of each claimed miracle, do you? I reject Fatima because I reject macroscopic miracles. Same for the miraculous gas chambers of Auschwitz and the (well-defined: 6 million + extermination + mass-murder gas chambers) "Holocaust" as a whole.

What "procedures" is Marques referring to? If the vague and contradictory procedures for the alleged homicidal gassings at Birkenau are all he is referring to, then he has a point--but, that is NOT all that Faurisson is referring to.

You keep misunderstanding Faurisson and, yes, the Krema II in Birkenau is the heart of the matter (Van Pelt called it "the epicenter of the Holocaust") but not the whole matter. We also get a whole zoo of comical absurdities in the shape of mass executions by steam, electrocution, non-toxic Diesel exhaust etc., as you well know. And if you want a real surrealistic procedure all you have to do is to imagine people executing hundreds of thousands of victims, then, a couple of years later, with a full war on, going around digging their remains en masse and making enormous bonfires with them to erase the traces of the gigantic crime. And even more unbelievably, fully succeeding in this crazy enterprise, which itself left no visible evidence or documentation that it ever took place, other than in the imagination of those looking for excuses to the absence of "Holocaust" remains. This is what the "Holocaust" amounts to: a tissue of absurd procedures, in no way limited to the Auschwitz alleged industrial chain-murder.

So what's the point of claiming that the absurdities would get any less absurd in railroad delousing tunnels than in crematory-equipped camps, if indeed that is your point?

It's all the same: it's a contest of absurdities. Faurisson gets this. Begging your pardon, I don't think you do.

Faurisson did NOT imply or say: "under the described conditions and leaving no detectable signs." On the contrary, Faurisson insists that even the superbly designed, railroad delousing tunnels could NOT possibly have been used to commit mass murder because of the difficulties of ventilation and corpse removal. Hasn't Marques ever heard of gas masks and rubber gloves?

Well, hasn't Berg heard of the need to process thousands upon thousands of people non-stop? "Mass murder" is not "two or three", especially in the "Holocaust"-mode I assume we -- and most certainly Faurisson -- are talking about. Is that what you are suggesting would be impossible in the crematories of Birkenau but not in, say, the railroad delousing tunnel in Budapest, provided the personnel wore gas masks etc.? Suppose we get 3 000 people inside the tunnel and gas them. What comes after? How do you manage the resulting piles of dangerous bodies quickly accumulating in the thousands? Where are they deposited? How are they made to vanish?

Faurisson's claims regarding railroad delousing tunnels are technically baseless and even insane.

I don't think you're getting him right. Of course your railroad tunnel -- or even the Auschwitz Stammlager crematory -- would do if we were talking about a couple of folks to be secretly murdered every now and then. But that's not what we're talking about, is it?

I, at least, am talking about the "Holocaust" (see definition above). And it seems to me you're talking about what seems to you would be an alternative method of achieving the same results, provided the railroad delousing tunnels already in existence would be used instead of the alleged gas chambers in the crematories.

If that's what you're saying, of course I think you're talking nonsense. You're forgetting every single tremendous problem that accompanies mass executions in "Holocaust"-mode, so to say, simply to affirm that a gassing facility already in existence, say, in the outskirts of Budapest, would be preferable to another one that would have to be built from scrap (and forget the convenience of the already built concentration camps equipped with crematories etc.).

The technical problems are ALL easily solvable in the manner I have spelled out in my response to Faurisson on my website and elsewhere. http://www.nazigassings.com/Railroad.html

The technical problems of exactly what? Of mass executions in "Holocaust" mode? How would you have made the non-stop gassing of victims, thousands at a time, possible? How would you have screened the existing delousing tunnels from their urban environment? How would you have manipulated the thousands upon thousands of bodies? And why in heaven would you have gone to the trouble of cordoning-off the area, diverting the railroad traffic and building whole new camps and crematories around the delousing tunnels instead of simply building new killing facilities within the already existing camps, alongside their crematories?

And those solutions would have been almost obvious to any technically competent people, of which the Germans had many, often with vast experience in the safe handling and ventilation of objects of all kinds that had been fumigated with Zyklon-B and cyanide gas. Clothing (wet as well as dry) and leather goods were all fumigated routinely in Zyklon-B gas chambers any of which could have been easily modified to prevent living persons trapped inside from damaging any exposed equipment. Engineers and technicians do that sort of thing all the time.

I see. Thousands upon thousands of victims a day would be brought in and gassed very much as clothing and leather goods were brought in and fumigated, and then, I presume, the resulting bodies would be manipulated and disposed of in very much the same way clothing and leather goods are manipulated, aerated and redistributed. Am I missing something here? Or perhaps you are?

There is a real problem within conspiracy-minded communities generally. They often get some fixed idea and hold on to that as fanatically as the Jews are holding on to their holocaust hoax.

You mean like the delousing-tunnel alternative-"Holocaust" community?

Herman Rosenblat's adherence to totally contrary views about his eventual wife having fed him earlier through a concentration camp fence is a prime example of such mental gymnastics.

I guess it would have been all right with you if he had been in enclosure # 23 by the death tunnel in the middle of Budapest and she had sent him the goodies by train...

But many of Faurisson's ideas about "impossibilities" are no better. When that happens, we are dealing with religion.

It seems to me you, rather than Faurisson, are the one forgetting about those small trifles all of us men of (true) faith call impossibilities.

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

I have no idea what Marques is drinking--but, it certainly isn't helping his arguments.

Instead, of pulling cattle-cars with live Jews locked inside to Auschwitz, one could have simply pulled those same cattle cars into the large Budapest railroad delousing tunnel, several railroad cars at a time. After everyone was killed, the huge fan inside the tunnel, with supply and return ductwork, would force ventilate everything with fresh air for whatever length of time seemed necessary, like maybe one hour. After that, the cattle cars with dead Jews are pulled out and the cars are moved almost anywhere, like to a remote rail siding, for leisurely disposal of the corpses in ditches, or burning pits, or cremas. The dead Jews with whatever traces of cyanide remain need only be handled days after the Jews had been killed, with rubber gloves and/or gas masks. The process would have been logical and unseen by all except those who would have had to handle the corpses at the point of disposal.

Revisionists have had an incredibly difficult time convincing more than a handful of people that the standard story of cyanide gassings at Auschwitz is severely fault-ridden. They are not likely to convince many people that the railroad delousing tunnels could not have worked also, or even much better.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

The answer to Turpitz's challenge as to why I think the railroad tunnels are so important is as follows:

The availability of the large, railroad delousing tunnels and also the widespread use of poison gas or Holzgas to drive most motor vehicles lead to only two possible conclusions: either (1) the Nazis and Germans were the most clumsy, inefficient and technically stupid, mass murderers in all of human history or (2) the “holocaust” is a monumental hoax as alleged by some revisionists. Since the “fiendish” Nazis were certainly far from technically stupid, only one possible conclusion remains.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[ASMarques]

I have no idea what Marques is drinking--but, it certainly isn't helping his arguments.

Delicious "Ceres" white grape / pear / lemon juice, pass the publicity. How about you?

Instead, of pulling cattle-cars with live Jews locked inside to Auschwitz, one could have simply pulled those same cattle cars into the large Budapest railroad delousing tunnel, several railroad cars at a time. After everyone was killed, the huge fan inside the tunnel, with supply and return ductwork, would force ventilate everything with fresh air for whatever length of time seemed necessary, like maybe one hour. After that, the cattle cars with dead Jews are pulled out and the cars are moved almost anywhere, like to a remote rail siding, for leisurely disposal of the corpses in ditches, or burning pits, or cremas. The dead Jews with whatever traces of cyanide remain need only be handled days after the Jews had been killed, with rubber gloves and/or gas masks. The process would have been logical and unseen by all except those who would have had to handle the corpses at the point of disposal.

Supposing we're still talking about the "Holocaust" and the alleged performance of the "extermination" camps, I assume you have investigated the delousing procedures for trains and their duration.

Can you show me that "like maybe one hour" of ventilation was enough for normal deloused cars, not even to speak of cattle-cars shock-full with human bodies? How long was the standard regulation for the empty cars? And how much time for ventilation until the car was back in service? What were the procedures on arrival and on departing the delousing facility and how long did they take? How would that be complicated by the presence of hundreds or thousands of bodies inside? Would they be dressed or would they have been travelling around in the nude, by the way? If we talk of force ventilating, how would the presence of all the bodies have complicated the air circulation and left non-renewed pockets of poison gas, even if no clothes? How would that have complicated the circulation of the trains and the disposal of the bodies at the inumerable ditches along the railroad system? And after that, how would the many pestilential cattle cars full of dead bodies, urine and excrement, still reeking of cyanide entraped in pockets, continuosly and simultaneously circulate all over the railroad system from camp to tunnel, to ditch, to camp, to tunnel? Have you really done any calculations, like building a stochastic model of the train movements and ditch openings / burnings in pits / cremas? Would it have been possible to keep such a gigantic entreprise secret for a long time? Would Budapest and the other "extermination terminals" have remained secluded from the outside world? Would many miles of specially reserved track alongside all those long ditches have to be built? In what way would the absurdities inherent to Berg's "Holocaust" have been different from the absurdities of, say, Höss's "Holocaust"? I'm sorry to say this, but Höss at least had to be beaten up to pulp before his creative imagination devised his...

Or are you simply suggesting that, regardless of the "Holocaust," it is possible to kill people by gassing them inside railroad delousing tunnels? Because if that's what you're saying, I might add "and, of course, it is also possible to kill people by gassing them inside morgues, offices, beauty parlours, etc." So what? What's the point?

Revisionists have had an incredibly difficult time convincing more than a handful of people that the standard story of cyanide gassings at Auschwitz is severely fault-ridden. They are not likely to convince many people that the railroad delousing tunnels could not have worked also, or even much better.

Berg's imaginary "railroad Holocaust" would have been as possible as Höss's "crematory Holocaust." As I said, it's all the same: it's a contest of absurdities.

[Kiwichap]

FPB: "Instead, of pulling cattle-cars with live Jews locked inside to Auschwitz, one could have simply pulled those same cattle cars into the large Budapest railroad delousing tunnel, several railroad cars at a time."

And again: Instead of pulling cattle cars loaded with Jews into railway tunnels, we could have simply off loaded thousands of Jews at Gdansk. Put them all in the hold of a freighter. Steamed 150 miles off shore and thrown the lot overboard into the sea. Throw after them a goodly amount of pig and cow guts from the local butcher to attract the sharks, and bingo! No fuss, no gas, no gas chambers, no rubber gloves, no gas masks or gumboots. No crematories. No coke. No huge pits, no signs, no evidence, no Jews, no nothing. Think of the cost savings, especially if the ship was going that way anyway.

And of course, since we are clever and could do that, it must mean there was no holocaust.

C'mon FPB; What sort of argument is that? It's true you made a good point. But pushing the point into an argument... causing division because of hurt pride... is causing your good point to sour. You will only end up leaving a bitter taste in the mouths of the seekers. I'm sure Faurisson could see the end and the folly of what is now your tedious argument FBP, hence his rebuke. Give it a rest. Stick to the fable we all know and love. Don't give the liars any new ideas. Lets not put rocks in our way.

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

Any pile of bodies of people killed with cyanide gas is, to a great extent, self-ventilating because of the temperature of the corpses. Cyanide boils at 79.6 degrees Fahrenheit, but corpses will remain at more than 90 degrees Fahrenheit for many hours after death. The body temperature of a corpse declines slowly after death at a rate of roughly one degree per hour. The exact rate will vary with the temperature of the surrounding environment, of course--but, any pile of corpses will retain its heat for a long time, even in a cold environment. In general, the rate of decline is such a well-established fact that forensic pathologists have for many decades used charts for rates of decline in body temperature to determine time of death.



Images (above) with captions from: Francis E. Camps, editor, Gradwohl's Legal Medicine, 3d ed., (Great Britain: Year Book Medical Publishers Inc., 1976), page 87.

So, there will be NO liquid cyanide accumulating or condensing on the skin, for example, because the corpses and the immediate environments surrounding the corpses will be above the boiling point of cyanide. There may be some small accumulations of liquid cyanide condensing and adhering to the hair of corpses at the cooler exterior edges of a pile of corpses, but the quantities involved here will inevitably be quite small and easily removed with the ventilation inside the delousing gas chamber. In any event, rubber gloves and gas masks are still easy enough to use to handle corpses. Water hoses are certainly going to be used as well to clean the railroad cars. So, disposal of the corpses is NOT some monumental technical problem.



The Germans and their Allies fumigated many thousands of trains with Zyklon-B without Jews in them. Technically, it would have been almost as easy to fumigate the same trains with Jews in them. That some people fail to grasp this is pathetic. But, the homicidal possibilities of this technology would have been obvious to anyone with any railroad expertise in Nazi Germany. Zyklon-B advertisements, such as the one above, showing trains being fumigated with Zyklon-B appeared in many technical journals. The railroaders would have appreciated it if there had been any kind of extermination program. Railroads were an essential element of the alleged extermination program. Just imagine all those railroad cars packed with dirty Jews from the ghettoes of Europe, half-starved supposedly, crammed together without toilets and even dying along the way to Treblinka, or wherever. The railroad cars had to be cleaned and fumigated anyway for the return trips. So, why not combine steps?

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[ASMarques]

Stick to the fable we all know and love. Don't give the liars any new ideas.

I agree that may be a danger. If this thing goes on, witnesses to the railroad tunnel holocaust and the Baltic shark holocaust may start to claim reparations. And I'm afraid they may even resort to Berg & Kiwichap for expertise.

Technically, it would have been almost as easy to fumigate the same trains with Jews in them.

That's not the point, anymore than it would have been equally easy to fumigate a morgue with or without Jews in it. The point is "what next?"

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

Well, it is my point! And, if the Jews change their reliable old fable to something new that actually makes technical sense--that is a risk worth taking.

I believe that even if they start pulling "eyewitnesses" out of the hat to support a totally revised gassing story, it would be obvious enough to many people, perhaps even most people, that they are seeing a spectacular hoax in progress. The Jews will NOT be able to withdraw and destroy all those mountains of history books they have spread around the world.

To "fumigate a morgue with or without Jews in it" would NOT be comparable at ALL unless it had, and which is most unlikely--specially coated and insulated walls, a large fan with appropriate ductwork for circulation and venting of gases, and a means to force the cyanide out of the Zyklon granules quickly with warmed air. It would have also needed some means to heat the morgue to near or above the boiling point of cyanide of 79.6 degrees Fahrenheit.

Marques should read the excellent fumigation literature which is available through my website, and elsewhere--and not just Faurisson's techno-nonsense,

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[Turpitz]

I do actually agree with you that it would have been a better procedure than the Communist nonsense at Birkenau. I also think the Germans would have used a different gas as well. If one thought about it, you could come up with a great many more efficient methods.

At the end of the day though, it's all hypothetical and nothing is as cheap, quick and simple as just booting them out, like around one-hundred other countries have in the past. This is the reason why no physical evidence exists as well.