How true are these stories?`
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How true are these stories?`
https://youtube.com/shorts/hEzQGKX2pYo?feature=share
Story about Irma Grese, to me it sounds a bit absurd. What is the story around this?
Story about Irma Grese, to me it sounds a bit absurd. What is the story around this?
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Re: How true are these storries?`
I haven’t done any in-depth research into this specific story, but the themes sound almost identical to the legend of Ilse Koch, the so-called “Bitch of Buchenwald”.
Either way, it’s definitely untrue. There’s this popular and Hollywoodised idea that the Auschwitz camp/s were a free-for-all where guards, SS men (and their women) could do anything to the prisoners with impunity, which just wasn’t the case. Concentration camps were very similar to maximum security prisons today, insofar as abuse between prisoners (especially along racial or ideological lines) was common, while guards abusing prisoners was not, and was greatly punished if one was caught, like Amon Gött was (it was going to be, if the war hadn’t of ended).
Either way, it’s definitely untrue. There’s this popular and Hollywoodised idea that the Auschwitz camp/s were a free-for-all where guards, SS men (and their women) could do anything to the prisoners with impunity, which just wasn’t the case. Concentration camps were very similar to maximum security prisons today, insofar as abuse between prisoners (especially along racial or ideological lines) was common, while guards abusing prisoners was not, and was greatly punished if one was caught, like Amon Gött was (it was going to be, if the war hadn’t of ended).
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Re: How true are these storries?`
All total rubbish made up for the baying masses of media and people wanting to confirm their own depraved theories of the Nazis.
We know for a fact that the human skin lampshade claims are totally untrue and as for the claim that she beat thirty women to death every day. Please give me a break...
We know for a fact that the human skin lampshade claims are totally untrue and as for the claim that she beat thirty women to death every day. Please give me a break...
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'
'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician
'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician
Re: How true are these storries?`
I think the early "Holocaust" testimony may become a major embarrassment for the Holocaustians.
There is probably a reason why the number of "war crime" decreased during the 1950s. Only to rise again in the 1960s. Were the emphasis was on 'confessing perpatrators'. Someone realized realized that the Rudolf Hoss story wasn't exactly too credible when it is under scrutiny.
There is probably a reason why the number of "war crime" decreased during the 1950s. Only to rise again in the 1960s. Were the emphasis was on 'confessing perpatrators'. Someone realized realized that the Rudolf Hoss story wasn't exactly too credible when it is under scrutiny.
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Re: How true are these storries?`
"Irma Grease", oh Americans!
My basic approach is always the same: whenever you hear a story that sounds like a cartoon or underground 1970s masochistic porno, it's probably not a true story. Like the so-called Acqui Division Massacre, where the 1st division of German Gebirgsjäger supposedly killed 5,000 Italian men on a whim, while a classically-trained tenor sang Italian opera arias for them. It's all sensationalist rubbish fit for tabloids and a 1940s-50s population already wired on "Weird Tales", pulp fiction, and "True Crime". Real humans do not act like this.
My basic approach is always the same: whenever you hear a story that sounds like a cartoon or underground 1970s masochistic porno, it's probably not a true story. Like the so-called Acqui Division Massacre, where the 1st division of German Gebirgsjäger supposedly killed 5,000 Italian men on a whim, while a classically-trained tenor sang Italian opera arias for them. It's all sensationalist rubbish fit for tabloids and a 1940s-50s population already wired on "Weird Tales", pulp fiction, and "True Crime". Real humans do not act like this.
Re: How true are these storries?`
You can read Irma Grese's testimony at the Belsen trial here:
https://ia600805.us.archive.org/24/items/BelsenTrial/51.1005-1040.pdf
For example:
https://ia600805.us.archive.org/24/items/BelsenTrial/51.1005-1040.pdf
For example:
She goes on to testify about gas chambers at Auschwitz, selections, etc.Q. Have you ever taken an individual prisoner and beaten her until she fell to the ground senseless ? A. No.
Q. Have you ever taken an individual prisoner and beaten her until she was bleeding? A. No.
Q. Have you ever kicked a prisoner whom you have struck to the ground? A. Never.
Q. At Belsen have you ever struck prisoner at all ? A. Yes.
Q. With what? A. With the hand.
Q. Have you at Belsen ever struck a prisoner with anything other than your hand? A, No.
Re: How true are these storries?`
This clip is completely absurd. It received 13 million views and 450,000 thumbs up. The channel’s top videos thrive on WWII propaganda. The top comment is
Joseph Bellinger has written an article series on Irma Grese
A German Girl's Heroic Death
Irma Grese, Victim of Lies - Part I
Irma Grese, Victim of Lies - Part II
Irma Grese, Victim of Lies - Part III
Irma Grese, Victim of Lies - Part IV
Irma Grese, Victim of Lies - Part V
Irma Grese, Victim of Lies - Part VI
https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2017/06/18/a-holocaust-survivor-who-was-saved-16-times-by-irma-grese/
Here are the Belsen trial transcripts http://www.bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/TrialTranscript/Trial_Contents.html
Another variant of the allegations in I Was a Doctor at Auschwitz (1948) by Dr. Gisella Pearl, chapter “Irma Greze,” pp. 61–5:
“People like that” - I don’t think anybody ever existed who resembles the insane ramblings of the accusers. But I think it would be worthwhile to produce some short revisionist clips in this TikTok style.Theres a special place in hell for people like that.
Joseph Bellinger has written an article series on Irma Grese
A German Girl's Heroic Death
Irma Grese, Victim of Lies - Part I
Irma Grese, Victim of Lies - Part II
Irma Grese, Victim of Lies - Part III
Irma Grese, Victim of Lies - Part IV
Irma Grese, Victim of Lies - Part V
Irma Grese, Victim of Lies - Part VI
https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2017/06/18/a-holocaust-survivor-who-was-saved-16-times-by-irma-grese/
Here are the Belsen trial transcripts http://www.bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/TrialTranscript/Trial_Contents.html
Another variant of the allegations in I Was a Doctor at Auschwitz (1948) by Dr. Gisella Pearl, chapter “Irma Greze,” pp. 61–5:
She was one of the most beautiful women I have ever seen. Her body was perfect in every line, her face and angelic and her blue eyes the gayest, the most innocent eyes one can imagine. And yet, Irma Greze was the most depraved, cruel, imaginative sexual pervert I ever came across. She was the highest ranking S.S. woman in Auschwitz and it was my bad luck to be under her eyes during my entire camp life.
One day she happened to visit the hospital while I was performing an operation on a young woman’s breast, cut open by whipping and subsequently infected. I had no instruments whatsoever, except a knife which I had to sharpen on a stone. Breast operations are particularly painful, and, as there was not a drop of anesthetic in this mock hospital, my patient screamed with pain all through the operation.
Irma Greze put down her whip, the handle of which was inlaid with colored beads, sat down on the corner of the bench which served as an operating table and watched me plunge my knife into the infected breast which spurted blood and pus in every direction.
I happened to look up and encountered the most horrible sight I have ever seen, the memory of which will haunt me for the rest of my life. Irma Greze was enjoying the sight of this human suffering. Her tense body swung back and forth in a revealing, rhythmical motion. Her cheeks were flushed and her wide-open eyes had the rigid, staring look of complete sexual paroxysm.
From that day on she went around in camp, her bejewelled whip poised, picked out the most beautiful young women and slashed their breasts open with the braided wire end of her whip. Subsequently those breasts got infected by the lice and dirt which invaded every nook and corner of the camp. They had to be cut open, if the patient was to be saved. Irma Greze invariably arrived to watch the operation, kicking the victim if her screams interfered with her pleasure and giving herself completely to the orgastic spasms which shook her entire body and made saliva run down from the corner of her mouth.
One day she ordered me to report to her in the afternoon at the so-called “maternity ward” of our hospital.
I have watched you operate,” she said, “and I have perfect confidence in you as a doctor. I want you to examine me. I think I may be pregnant ...”
I knew that it was against the rules for a prisoner to touch a guard, and breaking that rule was punishable by death. At the same time, refusing an order was punishable by death, too. She lay down on the bench and I proceeded with the examination. She was, indeed, pregnant.
“Be here tomorrow afternoon,” she ordered. “You are going to perform an abortion on me…”
“But I have absolutely no instruments,” I replied, "and if someone finds out, that will mean death for me…”
“No arguments. Leave everything to me…”
Next afternoon, at the appointed hour, I was ready, waiting for her. When she arrived, she brought a case of instruments—and her gun.
“They are sterilized,” she said handing me the instruments. Then she lay down on the bench and put the gun under her head.
I knelt down on the floor and began to operate. There was absolutely no doubt in my mind that this was going to be the last professional act of my life. We were both breaking the rules. Should anyone find out about it, it would mean the end of her career as an S.S. woman. I would be sent “left”… We were both equally guilty in the eyes of her superiors, yet she held all the cards. No one besides me needed to know about it. She could easily kill me without even having to make an excuse or to give an explanation. I was sure that this was what she intended to do.
While my hands worked almost mechanically, my mind was busy with the thought of death. I had often wondered, while reading about a condemned man’s last seconds before death, whether it was true that his whole life unfolds before his eyes in a flash. Yes, it is true. I finished the operation and sat back on my heels, too weary even to get up and face death standing. Suddenly I remembered the examination at the end of my first year of high school. I had to figure out how old I was by subtracting the date of my birth from the date of the current year. Then, one picture followed another, until I relived, if not every incident, at least the mood and color of my entire life. It had been a happy life. Happy, successful, filled with love and work which satisfied me completely. I had lost everything, and there was nothing more to live for.
Irma Greze got up from the bench, arranged her clothes, picked up her gun and smiled. I looked up into her smiling face and waited for the bullet which was to put an end to the Dr. Gisella Perl I had been before and to Prisoner No. 25,404 I was now. But she did not shoot.
“You are a good doctor,” she said. “What a pity that you have to die. Germany needs good doctors…” I said nothing.
“I am going to give you a coat,” she continued. “And I don’t have to tell you to keep quiet about this. If you ever open your mouth, I’ll find you, wherever you are, and kill you…”
With this she walked out of the shack and left me alone with my newly-won life. Now, that I knew I wasn’t going to die, at least not right then, I remembered my sick and wounded lying on the bare floor of the hospital... I remembered all the pregnant women in camp whose life depended on my skill, courage and readiness to help and suddenly I knew why I had been spared. I was responsible for those women… I had to remain alive so as to save them from death… I was their doctor…
By-the-way, never got the coat Irma Greze promised me.
To provide soap for Germany … [Prof. Spanner] used, in the mode of the Shakespearean witches, racially and ethnically diverse corpses in his experiments … This defies the popular perception that the soap was made of “pure Jewish fat.” … We may consider this misperception a curious symptom of a purist and essentialist reading, or, at least, note that the tension between essentialism and utilitarianism reaches its peak in this misreading.
– Bożena Shallcross
– Bożena Shallcross
Re: How true are these storries?`
Here something from viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7776&p=58601
Reviso wrote:Haldan wrote: What I would like to know, is, what's the available evidence for any of these claims?
Sorry, I don't know evidence for such claims, but there are witnesses for the contrary. The Jewish deportee Fania Fénelon tells a story that shows Ima Grese touchingly compassionate, but she manages to interpret it as a proof of her wickedness.
See here :
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1775
An interesting thread on the Axis History Forum :
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5&start=90
One reads there : "a former Auschwitz inmate, a Jewish lady named Franziska, formerly from Czechoslovakia. She was multilingual and hence became an interpreter in Auschwitz. What she said abut Irma Grese had me speechless. It was nothing like what I'd expected to hear. Franziska caught typhus and collapsed at morning parade -it was Irma who arranged for her to go to hospital, and she visited Franziska with gifts of oranges, and later gave her a good winter coat.
Franziska was adamant that Irma's most striking personality characteristic was her naivety and innocence. She laughed when I mentioned the horror stories and said that in her 3 years at Auschwitz, she never saw Irma ill treat anyone, and it was only after the war that she heard the amazing accusations against her.Franziska was also adamant that survival in Auschwitz wasn't too difficult, providing that you didn't catch typhus, which was the big killer."
Unfortunately, the second name of this Franziska is not given, so the information has little weight.
Reviso
Re: How true are these storries?`
Waldgänger wrote:"Irma Grease", oh Americans!
My basic approach is always the same: whenever you hear a story that sounds like a cartoon or underground 1970s masochistic porno, it's probably not a true story. Like the so-called Acqui Division Massacre, where the 1st division of German Gebirgsjäger supposedly killed 5,000 Italian men on a whim, while a classically-trained tenor sang Italian opera arias for them. It's all sensationalist rubbish fit for tabloids and a 1940s-50s population already wired on "Weird Tales", pulp fiction, and "True Crime". Real humans do not act like this.
That's what is puzzling about the Holocaust affair.
The Holocaust Tales sound like over the top cartoons, yet people take them seriously. Very seriously, to be concise.
Any any other context, if that type of story would be told, people would should that down as nonsense immediately. But with "Holocaust" or "Nazis", it's taken seriously "as if it is Gospel". It also seems that the more cartoonish those stories are, the more it is gossiped to others. So the cartoons spread faster than a story that has at least the appearance of being realistic. Of course gossip can't be refuted out of hand. It requires thorough investigation to be disproven, if it is even possible.
If somebody told you, he was visited by seven green man in his bedroom a week ago, you'd probably dismiss it and ask for evidence. But there is no possible way to disprove the claim.
And so it was also with those Germans and others that were accused to have 'participated in the Holocaust' / "extermination of the Jews". The best they could say is that they didn't know about this. They could of course not say that the other claims, elsewhere, including other people were false, since they were not omnipresent at the time. So the "I did not know" is the honest answer. It is also a civil answer that doesn't require to accuse other people of lying or being delusional.
And by the way it's also used as an argument. When you dispute the Holocaust Claims Joe public responds with horror: "Are you saying all those witnesses are lying". It's not what we are sayi8ng, since most potential witnesses don't claim first hand knowledge about 'homicidal gassings' anyway. But people are to shallow to understand this and fall into a false dichotomy trap. And they find it plausible that "Holocaust Denial" would be punishable, because it "accuses the Holocaust Survivors to be liars". Think about it. That way you could cement any hypothesis as truth. E.g. If you are a 'flat earth denier', you'd automatically accuse all those people that witnessed the Earth to be flat to be 'liars'. Hence nobody should be allowed to have an alternative view on the matter.
It's of course another indication that the Holocaust is a cult. Within Cults the postulates of the Group as formulated by the leadership are considered 'sacred science'. Anyone that disagrees with this, doesn't have a 'right to exist' at least not inside the group. If tolerance is a postulate for example, anyone that is 'intolerant' does not deserve tolerance. The issue of course to ask what is meant by tolerance. Or 'how far tolerance should go'. It's a rubber term that can mean different things at the same time, even with the same person. And cultists love their paradoxes. They think they are virtuous to proclaim and defend them, even if that makes them look foolish. And exactly that psychological mechanism is at play with Holocaustianity. People will proclaim the most foolish statements and think they are virtuous now and that those that don't believe'm are somehow unvirtuous, uneducated, mean or whatever.
Bear in mind that those that managed the creation / social construction of the Holocaust Narrative were sociologists and psychologists in many cases. Of course they knew what they are doing although I think most that were involved somehow thought that they were 'missionaries for humanity and democracy'. After all wasn't WW2 a 'crusade' against 'NAZISM'... It doesn't only sound like religion, it actually is, just in a highly secularized form. They compensate for the lack of traditional religiosity with hypermoralism on the other side. That can however be an issue, which already became visible during the French Revolution.
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Re: How true are these storries?`
Thank you for this, but who is the real Irma Grese?
Also, the allegations that she slept with the prisoners and then gassed them was where I found the story entirely ridiculous.
Also, the allegations that she slept with the prisoners and then gassed them was where I found the story entirely ridiculous.
Hieldner wrote:This clip is completely absurd. It received 13 million views and 450,000 thumbs up. The channel’s top videos thrive on WWII propaganda. The top comment is“People like that” - I don’t think anybody ever existed who resembles the insane ramblings of the accusers. But I think it would be worthwhile to produce some short revisionist clips in this TikTok style.Theres a special place in hell for people like that.
Joseph Bellinger has written an article series on Irma Grese
A German Girl's Heroic Death
Irma Grese, Victim of Lies - Part I
Irma Grese, Victim of Lies - Part II
Irma Grese, Victim of Lies - Part III
Irma Grese, Victim of Lies - Part IV
Irma Grese, Victim of Lies - Part V
Irma Grese, Victim of Lies - Part VI
https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2017/06/18/a-holocaust-survivor-who-was-saved-16-times-by-irma-grese/
Here are the Belsen trial transcripts http://www.bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/TrialTranscript/Trial_Contents.html
Another variant of the allegations in I Was a Doctor at Auschwitz (1948) by Dr. Gisella Pearl, chapter “Irma Greze,” pp. 61–5:She was one of the most beautiful women I have ever seen. Her body was perfect in every line, her face and angelic and her blue eyes the gayest, the most innocent eyes one can imagine. And yet, Irma Greze was the most depraved, cruel, imaginative sexual pervert I ever came across. She was the highest ranking S.S. woman in Auschwitz and it was my bad luck to be under her eyes during my entire camp life.
One day she happened to visit the hospital while I was performing an operation on a young woman’s breast, cut open by whipping and subsequently infected. I had no instruments whatsoever, except a knife which I had to sharpen on a stone. Breast operations are particularly painful, and, as there was not a drop of anesthetic in this mock hospital, my patient screamed with pain all through the operation.
Irma Greze put down her whip, the handle of which was inlaid with colored beads, sat down on the corner of the bench which served as an operating table and watched me plunge my knife into the infected breast which spurted blood and pus in every direction.
I happened to look up and encountered the most horrible sight I have ever seen, the memory of which will haunt me for the rest of my life. Irma Greze was enjoying the sight of this human suffering. Her tense body swung back and forth in a revealing, rhythmical motion. Her cheeks were flushed and her wide-open eyes had the rigid, staring look of complete sexual paroxysm.
From that day on she went around in camp, her bejewelled whip poised, picked out the most beautiful young women and slashed their breasts open with the braided wire end of her whip. Subsequently those breasts got infected by the lice and dirt which invaded every nook and corner of the camp. They had to be cut open, if the patient was to be saved. Irma Greze invariably arrived to watch the operation, kicking the victim if her screams interfered with her pleasure and giving herself completely to the orgastic spasms which shook her entire body and made saliva run down from the corner of her mouth.
One day she ordered me to report to her in the afternoon at the so-called “maternity ward” of our hospital.
I have watched you operate,” she said, “and I have perfect confidence in you as a doctor. I want you to examine me. I think I may be pregnant ...”
I knew that it was against the rules for a prisoner to touch a guard, and breaking that rule was punishable by death. At the same time, refusing an order was punishable by death, too. She lay down on the bench and I proceeded with the examination. She was, indeed, pregnant.
“Be here tomorrow afternoon,” she ordered. “You are going to perform an abortion on me…”
“But I have absolutely no instruments,” I replied, "and if someone finds out, that will mean death for me…”
“No arguments. Leave everything to me…”
Next afternoon, at the appointed hour, I was ready, waiting for her. When she arrived, she brought a case of instruments—and her gun.
“They are sterilized,” she said handing me the instruments. Then she lay down on the bench and put the gun under her head.
I knelt down on the floor and began to operate. There was absolutely no doubt in my mind that this was going to be the last professional act of my life. We were both breaking the rules. Should anyone find out about it, it would mean the end of her career as an S.S. woman. I would be sent “left”… We were both equally guilty in the eyes of her superiors, yet she held all the cards. No one besides me needed to know about it. She could easily kill me without even having to make an excuse or to give an explanation. I was sure that this was what she intended to do.
While my hands worked almost mechanically, my mind was busy with the thought of death. I had often wondered, while reading about a condemned man’s last seconds before death, whether it was true that his whole life unfolds before his eyes in a flash. Yes, it is true. I finished the operation and sat back on my heels, too weary even to get up and face death standing. Suddenly I remembered the examination at the end of my first year of high school. I had to figure out how old I was by subtracting the date of my birth from the date of the current year. Then, one picture followed another, until I relived, if not every incident, at least the mood and color of my entire life. It had been a happy life. Happy, successful, filled with love and work which satisfied me completely. I had lost everything, and there was nothing more to live for.
Irma Greze got up from the bench, arranged her clothes, picked up her gun and smiled. I looked up into her smiling face and waited for the bullet which was to put an end to the Dr. Gisella Perl I had been before and to Prisoner No. 25,404 I was now. But she did not shoot.
“You are a good doctor,” she said. “What a pity that you have to die. Germany needs good doctors…” I said nothing.
“I am going to give you a coat,” she continued. “And I don’t have to tell you to keep quiet about this. If you ever open your mouth, I’ll find you, wherever you are, and kill you…”
With this she walked out of the shack and left me alone with my newly-won life. Now, that I knew I wasn’t going to die, at least not right then, I remembered my sick and wounded lying on the bare floor of the hospital... I remembered all the pregnant women in camp whose life depended on my skill, courage and readiness to help and suddenly I knew why I had been spared. I was responsible for those women… I had to remain alive so as to save them from death… I was their doctor…
By-the-way, never got the coat Irma Greze promised me.
Re: How true are these storries?`
She’s just a simple girl who worked as a camp guard during WWII. I think you have to put yourself in the place of the Allied accusers for a moment to comprehend why she was convicted and lied about. They had made up the whole death camp propaganda during the war and had brought about a situation where there were massive casualties (and corresponding pictures in the newspapers) in the camp where Grese served as a guard. It was preordained that they had to sentence some of the accused to death. In the Belsen trial, which was one of the first which dealt with Auschwitz as well, she was made the main culprit next to the camp commandant. The prosecutor described her as the “the worst woman in the [Auschwitz] camp, and there is not one type of cruelty which took place in that camp for which she has not been known as being responsible” in his opening statement. She was “Oberaufseherin,” head warden, at Auschwitz, where her job was to look after 30,000 people together with 6–7 other guards. She had a long history working in concentration camps (Ravensbrück, Auschwitz-Birkenau, again Ravensbrück and then Bergen-Belsen), so she was known to many prisoners and it would have been strange, if these really were the death camps described by the war propaganda, that she would not receive a serious punishment. Furthermore, she looked like a typical German woman, the ideal object for a psychological operation to convince people around the world that something evil lurks in the souls of the Germans, i.e. they look friendly from the outside, but in reality are sick perverted murderers. So they had ex-prisoners tell their horror fables in this theater performance.AxisHistory2006 wrote:Thank you for this, but who is the real Irma Grese?
The allegation that Grese killed at least 30 people a day was made by Helena Koper/Kopper, a Polish block elder unknown to Grese, who herself was on trial and was sentenced to 15 years in prison (Anita Lasker called her “camp spy” for the Germans). This woman would have been easily convinced to tell some lies in order to save her own life. You can read her many contradictory statements here http://www.bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/TrialTranscript/Trial_Day_017.html#Day017_Kopper2, http://www.bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/TrialTranscript/Trial_Day_041.html#Day040_Kopper (many of them are commented in red color). Like other witnesses in this trial, she should have been accused of perjury, but I think this never happened to witnesses of the prosecution in the history of Allied kangaroo courts. I have only read some of the witness statements, however. If you find something interesting, please share it in this thread.
As to Grese herself, you can read Claudia Taake’s diploma thesis Angeklagt: SS-Frauen vor Gericht http://oops.uni-oldenburg.de/711/1/744.pdf which is, within the frame set by the German legal system, not too unfair, I’d say. Chapter 6 deals with Grese, the letters to her relatives are found in the appendix. If you can’t read German, you can perhaps use DeepL.
That is what you would expect any reasonable person to think after they saw this clip. Obviously, many are conditioned to react in another way. On the other hand, a lot of views and comments could be artificially generated.AxisHistory2006 wrote:Also, the allegations that she slept with the prisoners and then gassed them was where I found the story entirely ridiculous.
The “sexual” allegations seem to originate from Olga Lengyel’s Five Chimneys (1948) which is notorious for its outlandish claims. Here’s chapter 23, “Love in the Shadow of the Crematory.” There’s another section mentioning “Irma Griese” in chapter 19, “The beasts of Auschwitz,” where she describes a situation similar to the alleged abortion in the book of Gisella Pearl, without giving any specifics, however. By the way, Lengyel never calls her “hyena,” Grese’s alleged nick name in Auschwitz, but “blonde Angel of Death.”
To provide soap for Germany … [Prof. Spanner] used, in the mode of the Shakespearean witches, racially and ethnically diverse corpses in his experiments … This defies the popular perception that the soap was made of “pure Jewish fat.” … We may consider this misperception a curious symptom of a purist and essentialist reading, or, at least, note that the tension between essentialism and utilitarianism reaches its peak in this misreading.
– Bożena Shallcross
– Bożena Shallcross
Re: How true are these storries?`
I haven’t heard the lampshade story connected to Irma Grese before, or to Auschwitz or Belsen. It’s a Buchenwald story that was occasionally recycled for Dachau, Mauthausen, I think Nordhausen, possibly others. It seems here they are conflating Grese and Ilse Koch which is rather pathetic for a purported “history” channel, since it means they aren't even familiar with the original testimonies but are just repeating mixed up stories from secondary sources. As noted, the Grese mythology comes from the Belsen trial witnesses and a few memoirs. If someone does know of an Irma Grese lampshade story I’d like to see it. Or any lampshade story for Auschwitz or Belsen.
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Re: How true are these storries?`
Archie wrote:It seems here they are conflating Grese and Ilse Koch which is rather pathetic for a purported “history” channel, since it means they aren't even familiar with the original testimonies but are just repeating mixed up stories from secondary sources.
One of the reasons I am amenable to Holocaust revisionism was my academic training in historical & literary criticism. Learning about the multiplicity of sources in the early history of the New Testament prepared me thoroughly for this. This modus operandi seems to be a feature of Jewish historiography, whether it's collecting Old Testament myths into a united Temple-Kingship narrative, mashing Christian legends together to make the proto-orthodox Jesus of the Gospels, or turning the Shoah into a confused bolus of all sorts of ills & evils lumped together.
Re: How true are these storries?`
Archie wrote:I haven’t heard the lampshade story connected to Irma Grese before, or to Auschwitz or Belsen. […] If someone does know of an Irma Grese lampshade story I’d like to see it. Or any lampshade story for Auschwitz or Belsen.
I hadn’t heard of this and was a bit surprised, too.
Furtherglory wrote this, though I haven’t been able to find anything regarding lamps, lampshades, skinning or three prisoners in the Belsen trial transcripts.
https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2013/10/01/new-book-tells-about-nazi-women-who-joined-the-men-on-shooting-parties-in-the-snow-hunting-and-killing-jews-for-sport/The accusations of murder, against Irma Grese, were made in affidavits, and none of the accusations were corroborated. Survivors of Auschwitz-Birkenau even claimed that there were lamp shades, made out of the skins of three women prisoners, found in Grese’s room at Birkenau. Of course, no evidence of this was introduced at her trial.
A quick web search resulted in the following, probably incomplete list of unsourced claims, mainly by worthless history graduates and/or mentally deranged people. It looks like nowadays anyone can make a living by repeating/inventing World War II propaganda. Thumbs up for democracy.
UPDATE: It looks like Mitchell G. Bard of the Jewish Virtual Library has come up with this lie, this is the earliest entry I could find. It seems to have spread via The Guardian and was further embellished by various history-lying outfits.
Dr. Mitchell G. Bard, Executive Director / Curator of the Jewish Virtual Library, Irma Grese (1923 - 1945),The skins of three inmates that she had had made into lamp shades were found in her hut.
https://web.archive.org/web/20040107002852/http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/grese.html, https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/irma-grese.
Steven White, Sadistic Holocaust camp guard so evil she was nicknamed the 'Hyena of Auschwitz, https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/sadistic-holocaust-camp-guard-evil-27483513.A particularly disturbing claim by the Jewish Virtual Library is the lampshades made of human skin allegedly found in her accommodation, items that Nazi female peer Isle Koch was also accused of housing.
John Ezard, Beast of Belsen and his lover in Nuremberg exhibit, https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/nov/21/secondworldwar.world.When details of Nazi war crimes in the camps first became known in the trials of war criminals in 1946, they called into question the assumption that women are less capable of cruelty than men. A study of evidence at Nuremberg said: "The skins of three inmates that she [Irma Grese] had had made into lampshades were found in her hut." Camp survivors testified to "her acts of pure sadism, beatings and arbitrary shooting of prisoners, savaging of prisoners by her trained and half-starved dogs, to her selecting prisoners for the gas chambers.
“C N Trueman,” Irma Grese, https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/world-war-two/holocaust-index/irma-grese/.Evidence, disputed by some, stated that she had lampshades made from the skin of the human victims at the camps she worked at.
Shannon Quinn, The Beautiful Nazi Beast Warden of Bergen-Belsen Concentration Camp Was Famous for Her Brutality, https://historycollection.com/the-beautiful-nazi-beast-warden-of-bergen-belsen-concentration-camp-was-famous-for-her-brutality/3/.During her career as the warden, Irma Grese received a thoughtful gift from yet another Nazi woman living in a concentration camp; Ilse Koch. Just like Irma, Ilse Koch had gotten into the Nazi party early, and she was able to enjoy running the Buchenwald camp with her husband. She was known for sending fellow concentration camp wardens lampshades covered in human skin, decorated with the tattoos of the prisoner who died to make the household trinket. Irma Grese enjoyed this morbid gift so much, she wrote to Koch to ask if she could have two more to match.
Richard Clark, Irma Grese, https://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/irma.html.It has been claimed that in her hut was found the skins of three inmates that she had had made into lamp shades, although this is now disputed.
“Esh,” “History Buff, Personal Growth Blogger & Designer,” The Most Beautiful Nazi Beast Who Was Known For Her Brutality, https://medium.com/exploring-history/the-most-beautiful-nazi-beast-who-was-known-for-her-brutality-c10b0f73c214Koch would send her fellow wardens lampshades covered in the skin of the dead prisoners. Irma Grese was so excited to have received such a morbid gift that she wrote a letter to Koch asking for more lampshades.
Lincoln Riddle, Guest Author, Faces of Evil: Female Concentration Camp Guards, https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-ii/faces-of-evil-female-concentration-camp-guards.html.Several people even claimed she had lamp shades in her hut that were made from prisoners’ skins, but that has since been disputed.
Bhavi Mandalia (admin_l6ma5gus), Irma Grese, the most sadistic of the Nazis, https://pledgetimes.com/irma-grese-the-most-sadistic-of-the-nazis/.She surveys her face in the mirror, not a hair out of place. After the war she dreams of being an actress. Now, her uniform, her tall boots, a gun, and a cellophane-braided whip, made especially for her. Before leaving her, she turns off a small bedside lamp. She has three of the same style. Unique pieces, without a doubt. Her screens are made of human skin, specifically of three Jewish prisoners, skinned by herself. So yes, Irma Grese, ‘the beautiful beast’, the angel of death’, ‘the bitch of Belsen’ – names by which she is still known today – she is ready for a new day.
“Sal,” “a Passionate Historian & Storyteller,” Eight Disturbing Facts About the Auschwitz Nazi Concentration Camp, https://medium.com/lessons-from-history/eight-disturbing-facts-about-the-auschwitz-nazi-concentration-camp-8f218482b257.Quickly, she became known for carrying a whip and pistol while always wearing heavy boots and was notorious for beating women to death on any given day. She was also later found to have used the skin of some victims as lamp shades in her hut!
minikar.ru (no author), “Happiness, love and relationships, inspiration,” Sophisticated sadist - the overseer of the Nazi concentration camps, who took the lives of thousands of people https://minikar.ru/en/goroskopy/izoshchrennaya-sadistka---nadziratelnica-gitlerovskih-konclagerei-lishivshaya/.Grese did not consider prisoners to be people; she had a lampshade made from the skin of murdered women. Grese subtly, often to death, tortured them, poisoned them with hungry dogs, could kill any of them at her own choice.
Jillian, “a researcher of Hong Kong Association of Cultural industries,” Notorious women Nazis (1) – Irma Grese, https://historyinyoureyes.wordpress.com/2017/08/27/notorious-women-nazis-1-irma-grese/.The inmates gave Grese, the youngest guard at the camp and a striking blue-eyed blonde, the nickname “Beautiful Beast.” At her trial it was testified that she set starved dogs loose on prisoners, selected who went to the gas chamber, beat prisoners with every tool she had including a whip, and ordered the skinning of three inmates. Found in her barracks hut were the skins that she had made into lamp shades.
She also became something of a sexual fanatic, and as a cruel sadist, she had love affairs with Dr. Josef Mengele, the Belsen camp commandant, Josef Kramer, and numerous prisoners at the camp, including female. There was a Blockova (female prisoner block leader) who was her favorite but she grew bored with her and sent her to be killed. Mengele ended his relationship with her when he discovered that she was having affairs with women, as Grese was breaking the provisions of the Race and Resettlement Law; homosexuality was strictly prohibited, as were affairs with Jewish inmates.
To provide soap for Germany … [Prof. Spanner] used, in the mode of the Shakespearean witches, racially and ethnically diverse corpses in his experiments … This defies the popular perception that the soap was made of “pure Jewish fat.” … We may consider this misperception a curious symptom of a purist and essentialist reading, or, at least, note that the tension between essentialism and utilitarianism reaches its peak in this misreading.
– Bożena Shallcross
– Bożena Shallcross
Re: How true are these storries?`
Hieldner wrote:...
A quick web search resulted in the following, probably incomplete list of unsourced claims, mainly by worthless history graduates and/or mentally deranged people. It looks like nowadays anyone can make a living by repeating/inventing World War II propaganda. Thumbs up for democracy.
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Thanks, it seems to be confined to low quality secondary sources. I'd say it's not part of the "official story." In which case this video is of questionable accuracy even from an orthodox perspective.
I double-checked Olga Lengyel's book using a keyword search and there's nothing in there about human skin lampshades. I also did a Google search of the Belsen trial site and I'm not finding anything. I feel pretty confident that there are no primary sources that claim this. Just confused people mixing up stories decades after the war.
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