Proof of mass genocide?

[AxisHistory2006]

According to “Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp, p 171, it took 20 minutes to cremate 3 bodies in one retort, but the cremations were not complete. The bones still remained to be disposed of and bodies were not always fully cremated. So that makes it around 9 bodies per hour per retort

[borjastick]

Aha the German method never seen before or after and even today with efficiency the like of which could never have been foreseen in the 1930s we still take one hour to cremate the average person properly.

Where did all those half cremated bodies, over 1 million of them, disappear to?

[Lamprecht]

From:
Auschwitz cremation ovens and the "four-story continuous operation corpse incineration oven" never built
viewtopic.php?t=12778

Usually, the claim is that Auschwitz crematoriums were highly effective for the purpose, that they used the best technology that was available at the time. Upon closer inspection, this does not appear to be the case.The most comprehensive investigation in this regard was published just a few years ago, and contains over 1,000 pages of in-depth technical insights, documents, and photographs on the topic:



Carlo Mattogno: The Cremation Furnaces of Auschwitz—A Technical and Historical Study
https://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/24-tcfoa.pdf

At first, only one crematorium was planned for "Extermination camp" Auschwitz Birkenau, but in 1942 the camp was ordered to increase its population to 200,000 people, and the outbreak of a massive typhus epidemic caused hundreds of people to die of disease each day at one point in time. This is also what motivated the Germans to order so much Zyklon-B to the camp, which was used to delouse and fumigate clothing and bed sheets to kill the disease-carrying lice.

Actually, compared to Buchenwald and Dachau (which are not claimed to be "extermination camps") Auschwitz had fewer oven muffles when calculated as a ratio of the number of muffles per death in the camp in August 1942.



Some additional points about the Auschwitz cremation furnaces:

- Although documentation about the cremation capacity of the furnaces at Auschwitz has mostly disappeared, almost identical furnaces (to the ones at Crematoria II and III) were installed at the Gusen Camp in Austria. What we know from these documents is that cremation of one corpse took on average one hour, and it required 25-30 kg of coke per hour or corpse if continuously operated

- Compared to normal civilian furnaces, the muffles at Auschwitz were smaller because they were designed to accommodate one corpse without a coffin. The coffins actually acted as fuel to help cremate the bodies, so additional fuel was needed to make up for this.

- The Auschwitz furnaces had no recuperators, which are used to recover heat from exhaust. This also ended up necessitating additional fuel for the cremations.

- Combustion air that was fed into the Auschwitz furnaces was cold, and therefore the furnaces operated at lower temperatures and this extended cremation time.

- The Birkenau furnaces had no forced-draft blowers to increase the chimney's draft, and had a limited means of regulating air flow with ports and shutters. Therefore, they couldn't operate under "ideal" conditions for very long.

- The 10 triple-muffle furnaces of Krema II & III had a serious flaw in their design: the combustion air of the lateral muffles flowed into the center muffle, causing its combustion air to flow with twice the speed. This led burning combustion gases to rush into the flues, overheating them. They also had only one blower feeding cold air into the lateral muffles, reducing the cremation controllability.

- The fragile refractory bricks of the ovens would have been damaged severely by high temperatures, causing significant down time. The Krema II chimney was damaged in March 1943 because of overuse. Breakdowns were actually quite frequent.

The second post in that thread references the letter you have posted.

[Lamprecht]

According to “Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp, p 171, it took 20 minutes to cremate 3 bodies in one retort, but the cremations were not complete. The bones still remained to be disposed of and bodies were not always fully cremated. So that makes it around 9 bodies per hour per retort

You do realize that the document you posted does not claim that 3 bodies were cremated in 20 minutes, or 9 bodies per hour? It doesn't provide estimations of this nature at all.

[Otium]

This document is reproduced in Mattogno's book previously posted by Lamprecht. The letter by Fritz Sander, dated 14 September 1942 reads:

On 14 September 1942, the Topf engineer Fritz Sander wrote a letter to the brothers Topf, owners of the firm in which he worked, explaining to them the “new design” of a furnace he had invented. Of this letter, only the first page and some excerpts of other pages have been published.

“The great demand for cremation furnaces for concentration camps which has lately manifested itself especially in the case of Auschwitz and which has, according to the report by Herr Prüfer, led to a further order for 7 triple-muffle furnaces, has prompted me to look into the question of whether the concept of muffle furnaces used so far at the places mentioned is indeed the most-suitable one.

In my opinion, in a muffle, the cremation does not proceed quickly enough to ensure the elimination of a great number of corpses at a desirably high rate. As a makeshift solution, one has tried to use a series of furnaces or muffles and by loading them with more corpses, but this does not solve the basic problem, i.e. the drawbacks of the muffle system. These drawbacks of the muffle furnace, which cannot be solved even by assembling more muffle furnaces (triple- or 8- muffle furnaces) and loading more corpses into an individual muffle, are in my judgment the following:

1) Discontinuous operation.
Each muffle, at regular intervals, must be loaded, cleaned, then loaded again and cleaned again, and this goes on for the [whole] duration of the operation of the furnace. Each time [a cremation is undertaken] it is necessary to open the introduction door at the front, and the corpses must be loaded into the muffle through this front door. While this goes on, cold air flows into the furnaces, cooling the muffle, which not only reduces its service life, but also causes heat losses which have to be made up by additional fuel.

2) Problems of introduction.
In any case, it is difficult and unpleasant work to insert the corpses into the muffle in the longitudinal direction, especially if several corpses have to be packed into the muffle at the same time. In the long run, it will also be impossible to avoid damaging the delicate muffle masonry.

3) Large space requirement of the multi-muffle furnaces.
In terms of floor space, the multiple-muffle furnaces take up quite a bit of room and require a considerable amount of material for their construction. Moreover, the corpses to be cremated have to be transported each time in front of the opening of the respective muffle, i.e. they have to be distributed over a number of such places. They are thus scattered over the entire floor space of the cremation room. The same applies to a certain extent to the fuel.

To overcome the above disadvantages, and in my opinion as the ideal solution with regard to the design of a cremation furnace for the purpose of a concentration camp, I consider a furnace with continuous loading and also continuous operation.”

[...]

“I realize very well that this kind of furnace must be considered a mere device of destruction and that one has to cast aside all considerations of piety, separation of the ashes, or any sentimental factor. But all this is already with us in the case of multi-muffle furnaces. After all, we have special conditions in the concentration camps due to the war which force [us] to adopt such a procedure. […] In view of the considerations set out above, it is to be assumed that the authorities in charge will also approach other furnace manufacturers for the supply of cremation furnaces functioning quickly and well. These [firms], too, will look for the best design of furnaces for the applications mentioned. I must therefore assume that this question is now being addressed by all sides, and that ideas for new types of such furnaces are thus emerging in other furnace-construction companies as well. For this reason, I believe it to be urgent to apply for a patent for my proposal in order to protect our priority.”

[...]

“The collection camps in the occupied eastern territories set up on account of the war and its consequences with their inevitably high mortality do not permit the interment of the large number of deceased camp inmates. There is, on the one hand, a shortage of space and labor, and, on the other, the risk of exposing the vicinity, near or far, to the dangers presented directly or indirectly by any burial of the deceased, many of whom have succumbed to infectious diseases. The need thus exists to eliminate safely, quickly, and hygienically the corpses generated continuously in large numbers.”

[...]

“For the execution of this combustion – in line with the viewpoints exposed above – in some of these camps multiple-muffle furnaces were erected which obviously had to be loaded and operated serially. For this reason, these furnaces are not entirely satisfactory, as the combustion in them does not proceed quickly enough to permit the elimination of the large number of corpses generated continually within a short period of time.”

Carlo Mattogno, The Cremation Furnaces of Auschwitz: A Technical and Historical Study, Part 1: History and Technology (Uckfield: Castle Hill Publishers, 2nd Ed, 2021), pp. 288ff.

For the scans of the document, see Document No. 242, pp. 403-407 in the aforementioned book.

I have to wonder, why bring up this document about cremations when you cannot even prove the prerequisite of homicidal gassings? It seems pointless, because clearly that should be your first goal, otherwise the cremations mean nothing.

I personally resent this method used by exterminationists to avoid the crux of their position, which is alleged intentional homicidal gassings, by trying to skirt around the devastating refutation of that aspect of their gospel by implicating other events supposed to be connected to gassings in an attempt to get those they're arguing with to accept as self evident the claim that Jews must have been gassed, without actually proving it. It simply doesn't work like that. Hence this document does little to serve the Holocaust story as the mass cremation of those dead and dying by disease and starvation would be just as relevant to the question of cremation capacity as those allegedly murdered by cyanide gas.

So, even if what you claim is true, so what?

[Hektor]

This document is reproduced in Mattogno's book previously posted by Lamprecht. The letter by Fritz Sander, dated 14 September 1942 reads....

For the scans of the document, see Document No. 242, pp. 403-407 in the aforementioned book.

I have to wonder, why bring up this document about cremations when you cannot even prove the prerequisite of homicidal gassings? It seems pointless, because clearly that should be your first goal, otherwise the cremations mean nothing.

I personally resent this method used by exterminationists to avoid the crux of their position, which is alleged intentional homicidal gassings, by trying to skirt around the devastating refutation of that aspect of their gospel by implicating other events supposed to be connected to gassings .....

Because they don't have any hard evidence for extermination via homicidal gassing. Hence they bring up all kinds of other things. Hitler saying mean things about Jews, coded language, deportations, arrests, executions (connected to reprisals), pics during the collapse of Germany... Etc. They aren't necessarily shifting the goal posts, but try to get you to other goal posts where they think they have supportive facts at hand. This is of course very, very telling that they don't want to talk about homicidal gassings/gas chambers. It's a tacit admission that they aren't convinced about the evidence they think they have themselves. But they can't admit that, since that would open other cans of worms. This is similar to the Coronacaust narrative. They don't want to debate, why the so-called virus-isolation experiments are a deception and not actual proof .... They move to PCR-Test statistics or their personal favorite "people suffering on ICU". There are sick people, hence there must be a virus causing this. This argument is like the famous "If the Jews were not gassed, where did they go" canard. Question begging. And this goes through the whole narrative. Everything they can point to, gets explained as a result of or part of an "extermination program"... I don't doubt that Hitler and the National Socialists did want to remove the Jews from the German/Axis sphere of interest and that they wanted Jews to be under lockdown during WW2. But this all isn't an extermination program as alleged. If you portray it to be that, than you are engaging in propaganda and gas lighting, but not in thorough historiography.

Cremation recited out of context is only good for innuendo. But when you do the math on this, you'll find out that the thing fits with a huge detention facility.

[borjastick]

This argument is like the famous "If the Jews were not gassed, where did they go" canard. Question begging. And this goes through the whole narrative. Everything they can point to, gets explained as a result of or part of an "extermination program"...

Hektor

On this point alone I have just received my copy of Sanning's 'Dissolution...'. Already stuck into it and enjoying it very much. Looking forward to understanding a lot more about the location and movement of jewish groups throughout the period.

[hermod]

When connected to their respective epidemic death rates during WWII, one can see that Dachau and Buchenwald (i.e. camps where no mass slaughter occurred, revisionist and anti-revisionist historians now agree) were better equipped with crematory ovens than Auschwitz-Birkenau was!!

https://postimg.cc/sB39Z6BP

The number of crematory ovens at Auschwitz-Birkenau may seem very big, but one must also know that the camp was supposed to grow and hold up to 200,000 inmates and that the daily epidemic death rate had peaked at almost 500 in 1942. Knowing this, just wonder how many crematory ovens YOU would have planned for such a place...

https://postimg.cc/WtBhY5GM


https://postimg.cc/62Lzy8f3


https://postimg.cc/QBMj67HL


https://postimg.cc/WtZqmBBG

[Iris]

According to “Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp, p 171, it took 20 minutes to cremate 3 bodies in one retort, but the cremations were not complete. The bones still remained to be disposed of and bodies were not always fully cremated. So that makes it around 9 bodies per hour per retort

And we all know what happened to the 4 million gassed and cremated Jews at Auschwitz, don't we AxisHistory2006?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltjI3BXKBgY

[hermod]

According to “Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp, p 171, it took 20 minutes to cremate 3 bodies in one retort, but the cremations were not complete. The bones still remained to be disposed of and bodies were not always fully cremated. So that makes it around 9 bodies per hour per retort

And we all know what happened to the 4 million gassed and cremated Jews at Auschwitz, don't we AxisHistory2006?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltjI3BXKBgY

4 million people, not 4 million Jews. The Soviets too had their fictitious martyrs (including a number of Gentiles) created out of thin air...

[Hektor]

According to “Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp, p 171, it took 20 minutes to cremate 3 bodies in one retort, but the cremations were not complete. The bones still remained to be disposed of and bodies were not always fully cremated. So that makes it around 9 bodies per hour per retort

And we all know what happened to the 4 million gassed and cremated Jews at Auschwitz, don't we AxisHistory2006?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltjI3BXKBgY

4 million people, not 4 million Jews. The Soviets too had their fictitious martyrs (including a number of Gentiles) created out of thin air...

I recall the figure for Jews being put at 2.5 million.

The Soviets put their "number of victims" at various quantities. This goes from 5 million towards 27 million. I sense they may have done some creative bookkeeping there and wonder what their archives actually say. One must remember that since September 1939 they did invade Poland, attack Finland and also occupy the Baltic states. I doubt that didn't go with population losses. After all, the Balts weren't to sympathetic to those that collaborated with them.

[Fred zz]

Here is what happens to refractory bricks when they use the ovens too long
Link to the video for those interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzqxMS5C77s

Something to think about when cremating all those bodies

[Hektor]

This argument is like the famous "If the Jews were not gassed, where did they go" canard. Question begging. And this goes through the whole narrative. Everything they can point to, gets explained as a result of or part of an "extermination program"...

Hektor

On this point alone I have just received my copy of Sanning's 'Dissolution...'. Already stuck into it and enjoying it very much. Looking forward to understanding a lot more about the location and movement of jewish groups throughout the period.

Indeed, too many factors are there to consider.
The exterminationist book-keeping won't hunt. But that's how they have to argue to make their thesis fly. What they do is to take pre-war population stats and then compare them to post war population stats. That has the appearance of plausibility, but there are also lots of problems with it.
Examples of problems:
* How was e.g. a Jew counted into the statistics? Religion or Ethnicity? Who determined this? Now I'd guess for most countries it would be religion. If a Jew stops to be observing and resigns membership with a religious body, he vanishes from the statistics as a Jew. Another way is self-assigned religion of ethnicity. People can change that at their liking. Now if there were believable rumors of persecution and fear of extermination making the rounds. It is quite plausible that a person won't sign-up for a religion ethnicity that was 'under threat'.
* Selected countries statistics demonstrating dramatically decreased figures, while not looking at countries where figures went up. Now the issue was mostly with countries like France and the Netherlands. Jews were deported from there. They were deported "To the East". But what's in the East fell under Communist control from 1945 onwards. And they were notoriously misrepresenting information. In fact their system of government and economics was based on secrecy, deception and proclaiming favorable statistics. Difficult to judge there which figures are remotely reliable.

The argument is however also more anecdotal. They hear about Jews that were deported and "never came back". And this take as proof for extermination by jumping to that conclusion. It's a logical fallacy, of course. But most people use logical fallacies in their reasoning. In fact virtually everybody does at least at times. The problem is that at times, even a often logical fallacies can lead you to correct results. E.g. appeals to authority based on presumed superior knowledge. Example would be pointing to what a professor says. Lots of what they say is indeed correct and this can be demonstrated. But it is not the fact that a prof says it, that makes it correct. It's simply that conclusions follow from the facts logically. Take a mathematical equation. If your. The equation is the logic. The variables are the facts. Enter the facts as variables into the equation, calculate (follow rules of logic) and arrive at a correct result there. If the facts are correct and the rules have been followed, your result will be correct. You don't have to have a title, position or reputation for that. You have to do it correctly, that's all.

Absence of an item, doesn't proof its destruction. Even if when an item gets destroyed, it will necessarily be absent. It call also be the case that it moved elsewhere. And well, the matter of that item will still exist, that's a law of physics. And they can't show us how the item was destroyed, that it was destroyed and what is left from that item (in the case of natural persons that would be physical remains/corpses). Now their excuse is that it only shows how fiendish those Nazis were, they made all the remains vanish. How that was feasibly possible, they can't show. It was a miracle. And the devils can do miracles of course.

Those that insist on proof and demonstration of feasibility obviously 'lack faith' and are possibly malicious, perhaps they have a pact with devil. It isn't said that openly of course, but the whole affair is footing on suggestion. And the believe is produced using susceptibility. Because people are incredulous, they are given trinkets as proofs. Citing statistics can be a way of doing this. It's enough to at least ease the doubts a little. Well, cults work also that way. They have something in their mind and then see evidence in any experience they have.

[borjastick]

They hear about Jews that were deported and "never came back". And this take as proof for extermination by jumping to that conclusion. It's a logical fallacy, of course. But most people use logical fallacies in their reasoning.

Hektor

There are countless claims of this exact method of 'proof of extermination' none of which add up or hold water.

I remember some years back the famous British actor, comedian and voice over artist Stephen Fry, of course a jew, was tracing his family history, could have been on Who Do You Think You Are on the good old BBC. His jewish family were from Austria if I recall correctly. He was outside a nice old building in a side street in Vienna talking about how his extended family, grandad, great grandad etc were taken from here to one of the death camps and never seen again. He then became all emotional as if to confirm the holocaust myth had visited his own family. No proof or evidence of where they went or any back story to their death in one of the camps. None. But it was true in his mind don't you know...

[Hektor]

They hear about Jews that were deported and "never came back". And this take as proof for extermination by jumping to that conclusion. It's a logical fallacy, of course. But most people use logical fallacies in their reasoning.

Hektor

There are countless claims of this exact method of 'proof of extermination' none of which add up or hold water.

I remember some years back the famous British actor, comedian and voice over artist Stephen Fry, of course a jew, was tracing his family history, could have been on Who Do You Think You Are on the good old BBC. His jewish family were from Austria if I recall correctly. He was outside a nice old building in a side street in Vienna talking about how his extended family, grandad, great grandad etc were taken from here to one of the death camps and never seen again. He then became all emotional as if to confirm the holocaust myth had visited his own family. No proof or evidence of where they went or any back story to their death in one of the camps. None. But it was true in his mind don't you know...

The 'mass extermination with gas' stories are partially different, partially contradictory (to each other), but they also have commonalities.
If you take the Birkenau gassings in Krema II/III this will at least have:
* 100.000s gassed in each of the morgues.
* usage of Zyklon B as an agent to kill. (ammunition of the lethal instrument)
* thousands to be killed during each batch.
* corpses disposed during one day in the Krema muffles.
* Zyklon B through holes in the roof.

Even the most practical, most feasible versions of this have problems that are unreconcilable with how that possibly could have been done.
Taken a lot of the problem may look rather minor, but they are still highly improbable. And there are many of those, which already adds up being virtually impossible.

And well. The physicals evidence is lacking completely. What can be observed in Auschwitz, what can be observed in documents. It's all in line with what the standard Revisionist Hypothesis would expect. It isn't what you would expect, if the Holocaust is true. That's why acolytes of the Holocaust resort to fallacious logic. They design a package deal:
Holocaust = anything from NS-policy on Jews over deportation, detention to extermination in gas chambers towards traceless disposal of the corpses.
But those are different events and claims within a different time frame. The one doesn't prove the other. Not so in Holologic. There prove of "Antisemitism" in NS-Germany, proof of deportations, proof o detention, and even proof of prisoner mortality is proof for the whole package and hence proof for homicidal gassings on an industrial scale. It's kind of like: "You have a broom, you are a witch" and well, than all this 'testimony, which is persuasive, because people don't realize that most that most potential witnesses 'knew nothing'.

Add to this lots of circumstantial problems for the Holocaust Narrative and a reasonable person, will have to dismiss it as the atrocity propaganda it actually is.