BA's case for orthodoxy

[Hektor]

....
You're making a basic fallacy here. Millions of Americans served in Vietnam. .0000001% falsely reported atrocities? This sort of memory malfunction is rare. It's also much easier for someone to mistake nerve gas for some other agent being used, whereas Eichmann claimed to have visited 3 separate extermination facilities + had conversations with Himmler, Heydrich and others about mass genocide.

Eh, it isn't rare not at all. It's for sure not as unrare, when people are pressed to 'tell a story'.
And Eichmann a number of statements that are false to impossible. Plus, there is no evidence to corroborate the more outrageous statement. In fact as far as the stories of gas chambers are concerned there is not a single one that corroborate each other meaning there is no two witnesses that did testify about the same single event - gassing of the same person, at the same location, at the same date. Well, of those stories are similar of course... But sharing stories all the time has an equalizing effect, not to talk about coaching that can be done.

Concerning conversations... there the memory can even shift more easily. Do you remember the content of conversations 15 years ago? By now this would be in 2008.

...
What somebody said years after the fact is not robust evidence for a mass murder program, especially on the scale alleged. People can say anything. Now, if the Allies had taken statements honestly after the war and then corroborated them by finding actual gas chambers, finding blueprints for gas chambers, finding the expected quantity of remains, etc., that would be one thing. But the hard evidence only corroborates the least spectacular aspects of the atrocity stories. The remarkable aspects are “corroborated” by yet other testimonies/stories. Except if you actually read the statements of Hoess, Hoettl, Wisliceny, Eichmann, etc, you will see that they don’t truly corroborate each other except in the vaguest way. They contain major irresolvable contradictions. Conclusion: they are not based in fact.

And to manage something like an extermination program (not just deportation and resettlement), you'd have to have central leadership that fixes the thing. So information after the fact should indeed be more unified. And the story was pressed after WW2. Assuming that 'it happened' and then getting testimony and 'evidences' you'd need. No neutral, objective investigation ever. And well, also ignoring ALL the contrary evidences, testimony, etc. The thing that made the story believable to many were the primitive propaganda techniques being used. Repetition of the same type of accusations over and over again, repeating of rumors, keeping the story in the media for long. And appealing to emotion over and over again. Imagine what pressure this creates on people, when they are confronted with this personally? Be it as investigator, accused, witness, etc.

[bombsaway]

What somebody said years after the fact is not robust evidence for a mass murder program, especially on the scale alleged. People can say anything.

What does it matter if it's years later? Yes, people can say anything, at any time. That doesn't mean witness statements have no probative value.

But the hard evidence only corroborates the least spectacular aspects of the atrocity stories.

The hard evidence, eg from Kola's Belzec study, indicates mass burial and body destruction. As I pointed out in the 'physical evidence' thread, revisionists don't seem to have addressed the large presence of human cremains in these graves.

Grave Pit No. 1

The grave pit No. 1 was situated in the north-western part of the camp. It was in the shape of an irregular rectangle with the size of 40 meters by 12 meters and with a depth of 4.80 meters. The pit was filled with bodies in wax-fat, transformation; from the depth of about 2 meters burnt human bones and charcoal were mixed together. Such contents were already found at the depth of about 20-30 cm's from the surface. Burnt human bones and charcoal were also found samples drilled out in the area around the pit. Underground waters appeared at the depth of 4.10 meters. The estimated volume of the pit was about 1,500 meters.

Grave Pit No. 2

Located in the north-eastern part of the camp. Dimensions of the grave were determined as 14 meters by 6 meters, with the depth of 2 meters. Crematory grave with the volume of about 170 meters.

Grave Pit No. 3

Located in the southern part of the camp. This was the first mass grave, the location of which was positively identified from a Luftwaffe aerial photograph taken in 1944. It appears as a T-shaped white patch and has the appearance of being the biggest grave in the camp. Dimensions of the grave were determined as 16 meters by 15 meters and a depth of over 5 meters. The grave contained a mixture of carbonised wood, fragments of burnt human bones, pieces of skulls with skin and tufts of hair still attached, lumps of greyish human fat, and fragments of unburned human bones. The bottom layer consisted of putrid wax-fat transformation. The volume of the pit was about 960 meters.

Grave Pit No.4

The pit was registered at the borderline in the southern part. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle and dimensions were determined as 16 meters by 6 meters. The drilling was suspended at the depth of 2.30 meters because of a layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation. The volume of crematory part is about 250 meters.

Grave Pit No.5

Located in the south-western part of the camp. The grave had the shape of an irregular lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 32 meters by 10 meters, reaching a depth of over 4.5 meters. It was of a homogenous content. Studies of its crematory layers structure suggested multiple filling of the grave with burnt relics. The layer with the biggest thickness and intensity of crematory contents appeared in the lowest part of the pit and was about 1 meter thick; above 50 cm thick layer of soil, 4 following layers of crematory remains appeared, separated from each other with 20-30 cm layers of sand. The volume of the pit was about 1350 meters.

Grave Pit No. 6

This grave was located in the south-central part of the camp. It had the shape of a lengthened rectangle, with the dimensions of 30 meters by 10 meters with a depth of 4 meters. The ashes were scattered around the grave, reaching the depth of 1 meter. The grave contained homogenous crematory contents. The volume of the pit was about 1200 meters.

Grave Pit No. 7

This grave was located in the north-central part of the camp, where one of the concrete pylons, commemorating the camps victims was erected during the 1960's was situated. The shape of the pit similar to a high trapezoid, with dimensions of 13 meters by 14 meters, and a height of about 27 meters, and the depth of 4.5 meters. The grave was homogenous with crematory ashes and sand. The lowest layer with the thickness of over 1.5 meters contained the most intensive traces of body ashes. The upper layer contained brick rubble and stones at the depth of 0.8 meters. The volume of the grave was about 1600 meters.

Grave Pit No. 8

This grave was located in the south-western part of the camp. The second pylon from the 1960's was erected over it. The general shape of the grave was in the shape of a lengthened rectangle, with the dimensions of 28 meters by 10 meters. Additional drilling revealed that 2 neighbouring graves existed, joined together as one, at a later date. The depth of the original grave was about 4 meters, and the bottom layer consisted of dense crematory remains. The fillings were covered with 20 -30 cm of sand, coming probably from the soil separating the graves. The ditch created that way, with the depth of 2 meters was filled with body ashes, charcoal and brick rubble. The volume of the pit amounted to about 850 meters.

Grave Pit No. 9

A relatively small grave with an irregular shape was located in the eastern part of the camp, between the pylon, and the present line of the camp enclosure. The pit was an irregular shape with the dimensions of 8 meters by 10 meters. The depth exceeded 3.80 meters. The contents of the pit were crematory remains and charcoal. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 280 meters.

Grave Pit No. 10

One of the biggest graves located in the north-central part of the camp. It was rectangular in shape, with dimensions of 24 meters by 18 meters. The grave was very deep, over 5.20 meters, and the drills were stopped because of bodies in wax-fat transformation and underground waters. One drill at the depth of 4.40 meters revealed the appearance of several centimetres layer of white sand mixed with rich lime. Over body layers there were some levels of crematory remains, mixed with charcoal in turn with layers of sandy soil. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 2100 meters.

Grave Pit No.11

This grave of relatively small volume was located in the north-eastern corner of the camp. The dimensions of the grave was 9 meters by 5 meters with a depth of 1.90 meters. A small layer of crematory remains was found. At the depth of about 50 cm remains of musty wood was located. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 80 meters.

Grave Pit No.12

Located immediately to the north of grave pit 10, an L-shaped grave with the foot measuring 20 meters, with a depth that reached below 4 meters. The grave contained crematory in layers. In the separating layers charcoal and brick rubble was found. The volume of the grave amounted to about 400 meters.

Grave Pit No. 13

Located towards the west of grave No. 12. One of the concrete ever-burning fires from the 1960's was placed over it. Dimensions of the grave which was trapezoid in shape, was determined as 12.50 meters by 11 meters and a height of 17 meters, with a depth reaching up to 4.80 meters. The grave contained body remains of mixed character. There was a layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation with a thickness of about 1 meter in the bottom part; directly over it there was a layer of sand and lime. Above there were layers of crematory remains and charcoal. The volume of the grave was estimated at 920 meters.

Grave Pit No. 14

The vast grave basin of an irregular shape was located in the western part of the fenced camp area. The grave's dimensions were 37 meters by 10 meters. The average depth of the grave was about 5 meters. The grave contained crematory remains, and the drills revealed pieces of glass and plastic. The graves volume was over 1850 meters.

Grave Pit No. 15

Located in the north-western part of the camp. This grave on its surface had the second concrete ever-burning fire from the 1960's. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle, and the dimensions were about 13.50 meters by 6.50 meters and reached the depth of about 4.50 meters. The grave contained crematory remains. The estimated volume was about 400 meters.

Grave Pit No.16

Located in the north-western part of the camp, under the third existing concrete ever-burning fire. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 18.50 meters by 9.50 meters, with the depth of about 4 meters. In the bottom layers lime presence was found. The grave contained crematory ashes in layers with sand. The shallow drilling close to the grave confirmed the presence of burnt bones. The volume of the grave amounted to about 700 meters.

Grave Pit No. 17

Located east of grave No.16. The grave had the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 17 meters by 7.50 meters with a depth up to 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes. Burnt bones were also placed in layers with sand. A layer of rich lime was found in three drills at the depth of about 3 meters. The volume of the grave amounted to about 500 meters.

Grave Pit No.18

Located in the eastern part of the camp, to the east of the grave pit No. 15. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 16 meters by 9 meters with a depth of about 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes and charcoal. In the bottom part traces of lime were found. The volume of the grave amounted to about 570 meters.

Grave Pit No. 19

Located in the eastern part of the camp, directly under the first concrete fire. The ditch had the shape of a square with sides of about 12 meters. The depth of the grave was not more than 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes with a high density of human bones and charcoal. The volume of the grave amounted to about 500 meters.

Grave Pit No. 20

This grave was situated directly to the south of Grave Pit No.12 and its western part exceeded slightly the present enclosure of the camp. The grave had the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 26 meters by 11 meters, with a depth of 5 meters. The grave contained layers of crematory remains and charcoal. The farthest western drill contained not only body ashes, but pieces of musty paper and wood, a piece of a nail and brick rubble. The volume of the grave amounted to about 1150 meters.

Grave Pit No. 21

Located centrally in the camp. This was a relatively small grave 5 meters by 5 meters, with a depth of 1.70 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes which were reported at a depth of 70 cm. The volume of the grave amounted to about 35 meters.

Grave Pit No. 22

Located in the eastern part of the camp, under the eastern end of the alley, running in front of the concrete pylons symbolising the graves, erected during the 1960's. The grave had a shape close to a flattened triangle with the base of about 9 meters and the height of 15 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes and sand. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 200 meters.

Grave Pit No. 23

Located in the central part of the camp. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 16 meters by 8.50 meters, with a depth exceeding 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 550 meters.

Grave Pit No.24

Located in the southern part of the camp, just to the south of the fifth concrete ever-burning fire. The grave had the shape of a lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 20 meters by 5.50 meters with the depth of about 5 meters. The grave contained irregular layers of crematory ashes and lime. The lowest layer of ashes with the thickness circa 60 cm was covered with about 40 cm thick layer of sand. Above that regular surface of body ashes and sand were reported. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 520 meters.

Grave Pit No.25

Located in the southern part of the camp under the alley, between the fifth and the sixth ever-burning fire. The dimensions of the grave was about 12 meters by 5 meters, with a depth of about 4 meters. The bottom of the grave contained 40 -50 cm layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation covered with a layer of lime. Above that there was a layer with the thickness of about 60 -80 cm, covered with an 80 cm layer of sand. Over it was another intensive layer of burnt wood with a thickness of 80-100 cm covered with a surface bed of humus-like sand. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 250 meters.

Grave Pit No.26

Located in the south central part of the camp, under the alley close to the sixth ever-burning fire. The grave had the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 13 meters by 7 meters with a depth of over 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes, with clear layers of ashes, charcoal and sand. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 320 meters.

Grave Pit No. 27

Located in the central part of the camp, towards the west of grave pit No. 25. It was the shape of a lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 18.50 meters by 6 meters with a depth of about 5 meters. The bottom part of the grave consisted of nearly 1 meter thick layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation, above it there was a 20-25 cm thick layer of lime - over 2 meter thick intensive layer of charcoal with small amounts of crematory ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 450 meters.

Grave Pit No.28

Located in the central part of the camp, towards the west of grave pit No. 27. Two clear layers of bodies in wax-fat transformation covered with lime were reported. Above them was found intensive structures of charcoal without body ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 70 meters.

Grave Pit No. 29

Located in the central part of the camp. It was the shape of an irregular rectangle with the dimensions of about 25 meters by 9 meters with a depth of about 4.50 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 900 meters.

Grave Pit No.30

Located in the central part of the camp. The dimensions of the grave was 5 meters by 6 meters. The crematory remains were noted only from the depth of 2.70 meters. Above that a high density of charcoal was found. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 75 meters.

Grave Pit No. 31

A relatively small grave located to the north from grave pit No. 30. The grave was probably in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 9 meters by 4 meters, with a depth of 2.60 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes, mixed with sandy soil. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 90 meters

Grave Pit No.32

Located in the north western corner of the presently enclosed area of the camp. The grave was the shape of a lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 15 meters by 5 meters, with the depth of over 4 meters. The grave contained bodies in wax-fat transformation, covered with lime at the depth of about 3.60 meters. Above that there was a mixed structure of crematory ashes with charcoal. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 400 meters.

Grave Pit No. 33

A relatively small grave located in the north-western corner of the presently existing borderline of the camp, which went beyond the fence. The grave had dimensions of 9 meters by 5 meters, with a depth of about 3 meters. The grave contained the remains of crematory ashes and charcoal. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 120 meters.

So according to Kola, the hard evidence is that nearly all of the graves contained cremains (as distinguished from charcoal or wood ash). I should remind you that 100 cubic inches of ash (the average yield when cremating a 100 pound human body) is = to 0.00163871 cubic meters. So 600 bodies (100 pounds each) yield 1 cubic meter of ash.

~20,000 cubic meters of grave space are claimed by Kola.

[Butterfangers]

The hard evidence, eg from Kola's Belzec study, indicates mass burial and body destruction. As I pointed out in the 'physical evidence' thread, revisionists don't seem to have addressed the large presence of human cremains in these graves.

BA, why are you lying again? Nevermind... we know why. Here's what I said earlier in this thread:

As for Belzec, finding "evidence of cremains" amounting to much less than 1% of numbers allegedly buried there (and not excavating the cremains but simply/allegedly finding "evidence of" them), where Revisionists do not deny there were massive pyres of property being burned and that many dead also arrived on trains (hence needing cremation), is not surprising, all the more so when much of the remains were actually intact rather than solely 'cremains' as you say. Cremation was the standard; not as a "kill all Jews" campaign but, rather, as a best practice to ensure sanitation and disease control. To any extent that "destruction of evidence [corpses]" may have actually been the intent, this has to be considered within the scope of typhus and other epidemics being a PR nightmare for Germans, given the epidemics happened while Jews were in German captivity. And that is a long-shot from an policy of "kill all Jews with gas chambers". Absolutely zero physical evidence of any alleged 'chambers' exists (steam, gas, electricity, vacuum or otherwise).

Your excerpt/summary of Kola's 'study' as shown is misleading. What are his estimates for the number of bodies contained in each grave, and how does he justify it? As I recall, Mattogno (in "Belzec") focuses on this specifically and concludes an estimate of low thousands (perhaps even low ten thousands) at maximum, possibly less. The numbers matter, since cremation evidence tells us only what is obvious: bodies were cremated, and non-homicidal demands for this were abundant. Anything else you make of this is pure conjecture.

As for Eichmann, I have not had the chance to get caught up on this thread but I do see some of the same things coming up as before. Remember:

• The photographed transcript is blurry, some half or more of the pages are totally illegible.
• The complete (legible) transcript is in an Israeli archive, no Revisionist can see it (this transcript also originated from an "anonymous source" and is, hence, dubious)
• The available audio (which is a small fraction of the original total) is in a German archive, and no Revisionist can see it

Stangneth was able to view/listen to the whole transcript/audio in writing her book. No Revisionist is able to do the same. That is clear, indisputable, undeniable evidence that the debate is substantially affected by manipulation and control tactics such as censorship and a disparity in access to information. No amount of mental gymnastics you engage in (or ask of us) can change this indisputable fact.

It is proven in this thread that Eichmann (1) was a serial liar, (2) lied about "extermination" specifically, (3) had several clear and undeniable motives to do so. When looking at the story of the Sassen interviews and of Eichmann's life at the time, the truth is obvious: Eichmann was not speaking truthfully to Sassen. Nor can we assume Sassen sought only to document truth, given his own financial gain in the matter.

You brought up Alvensleben again who, remember, does not know the difference between a "gas chamber" and a "gas oven". This is clearly not someone who can speak to killing operations with gas chambers.

[fireofice]

What somebody said years after the fact is not robust evidence for a mass murder program, especially on the scale alleged. People can say anything.

What does it matter if it's years later? Yes, people can say anything, at any time. That doesn't mean witness statements have no probative value.

But the hard evidence only corroborates the least spectacular aspects of the atrocity stories.

The hard evidence, eg from Kola's Belzec study, indicates mass burial and body destruction. As I pointed out in the 'physical evidence' thread, revisionists don't seem to have addressed the large presence of human cremains in these graves.

Grave Pit No. 1

The grave pit No. 1 was situated in the north-western part of the camp. It was in the shape of an irregular rectangle with the size of 40 meters by 12 meters and with a depth of 4.80 meters. The pit was filled with bodies in wax-fat, transformation; from the depth of about 2 meters burnt human bones and charcoal were mixed together. Such contents were already found at the depth of about 20-30 cm's from the surface. Burnt human bones and charcoal were also found samples drilled out in the area around the pit. Underground waters appeared at the depth of 4.10 meters. The estimated volume of the pit was about 1,500 meters.

Grave Pit No. 2

Located in the north-eastern part of the camp. Dimensions of the grave were determined as 14 meters by 6 meters, with the depth of 2 meters. Crematory grave with the volume of about 170 meters.

Grave Pit No. 3

Located in the southern part of the camp. This was the first mass grave, the location of which was positively identified from a Luftwaffe aerial photograph taken in 1944. It appears as a T-shaped white patch and has the appearance of being the biggest grave in the camp. Dimensions of the grave were determined as 16 meters by 15 meters and a depth of over 5 meters. The grave contained a mixture of carbonised wood, fragments of burnt human bones, pieces of skulls with skin and tufts of hair still attached, lumps of greyish human fat, and fragments of unburned human bones. The bottom layer consisted of putrid wax-fat transformation. The volume of the pit was about 960 meters.

Grave Pit No.4

The pit was registered at the borderline in the southern part. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle and dimensions were determined as 16 meters by 6 meters. The drilling was suspended at the depth of 2.30 meters because of a layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation. The volume of crematory part is about 250 meters.

Grave Pit No.5

Located in the south-western part of the camp. The grave had the shape of an irregular lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 32 meters by 10 meters, reaching a depth of over 4.5 meters. It was of a homogenous content. Studies of its crematory layers structure suggested multiple filling of the grave with burnt relics. The layer with the biggest thickness and intensity of crematory contents appeared in the lowest part of the pit and was about 1 meter thick; above 50 cm thick layer of soil, 4 following layers of crematory remains appeared, separated from each other with 20-30 cm layers of sand. The volume of the pit was about 1350 meters.

Grave Pit No. 6

This grave was located in the south-central part of the camp. It had the shape of a lengthened rectangle, with the dimensions of 30 meters by 10 meters with a depth of 4 meters. The ashes were scattered around the grave, reaching the depth of 1 meter. The grave contained homogenous crematory contents. The volume of the pit was about 1200 meters.

Grave Pit No. 7

This grave was located in the north-central part of the camp, where one of the concrete pylons, commemorating the camps victims was erected during the 1960's was situated. The shape of the pit similar to a high trapezoid, with dimensions of 13 meters by 14 meters, and a height of about 27 meters, and the depth of 4.5 meters. The grave was homogenous with crematory ashes and sand. The lowest layer with the thickness of over 1.5 meters contained the most intensive traces of body ashes. The upper layer contained brick rubble and stones at the depth of 0.8 meters. The volume of the grave was about 1600 meters.

Grave Pit No. 8

This grave was located in the south-western part of the camp. The second pylon from the 1960's was erected over it. The general shape of the grave was in the shape of a lengthened rectangle, with the dimensions of 28 meters by 10 meters. Additional drilling revealed that 2 neighbouring graves existed, joined together as one, at a later date. The depth of the original grave was about 4 meters, and the bottom layer consisted of dense crematory remains. The fillings were covered with 20 -30 cm of sand, coming probably from the soil separating the graves. The ditch created that way, with the depth of 2 meters was filled with body ashes, charcoal and brick rubble. The volume of the pit amounted to about 850 meters.

Grave Pit No. 9

A relatively small grave with an irregular shape was located in the eastern part of the camp, between the pylon, and the present line of the camp enclosure. The pit was an irregular shape with the dimensions of 8 meters by 10 meters. The depth exceeded 3.80 meters. The contents of the pit were crematory remains and charcoal. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 280 meters.

Grave Pit No. 10

One of the biggest graves located in the north-central part of the camp. It was rectangular in shape, with dimensions of 24 meters by 18 meters. The grave was very deep, over 5.20 meters, and the drills were stopped because of bodies in wax-fat transformation and underground waters. One drill at the depth of 4.40 meters revealed the appearance of several centimetres layer of white sand mixed with rich lime. Over body layers there were some levels of crematory remains, mixed with charcoal in turn with layers of sandy soil. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 2100 meters.

Grave Pit No.11

This grave of relatively small volume was located in the north-eastern corner of the camp. The dimensions of the grave was 9 meters by 5 meters with a depth of 1.90 meters. A small layer of crematory remains was found. At the depth of about 50 cm remains of musty wood was located. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 80 meters.

Grave Pit No.12

Located immediately to the north of grave pit 10, an L-shaped grave with the foot measuring 20 meters, with a depth that reached below 4 meters. The grave contained crematory in layers. In the separating layers charcoal and brick rubble was found. The volume of the grave amounted to about 400 meters.

Grave Pit No. 13

Located towards the west of grave No. 12. One of the concrete ever-burning fires from the 1960's was placed over it. Dimensions of the grave which was trapezoid in shape, was determined as 12.50 meters by 11 meters and a height of 17 meters, with a depth reaching up to 4.80 meters. The grave contained body remains of mixed character. There was a layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation with a thickness of about 1 meter in the bottom part; directly over it there was a layer of sand and lime. Above there were layers of crematory remains and charcoal. The volume of the grave was estimated at 920 meters.

Grave Pit No. 14

The vast grave basin of an irregular shape was located in the western part of the fenced camp area. The grave's dimensions were 37 meters by 10 meters. The average depth of the grave was about 5 meters. The grave contained crematory remains, and the drills revealed pieces of glass and plastic. The graves volume was over 1850 meters.

Grave Pit No. 15

Located in the north-western part of the camp. This grave on its surface had the second concrete ever-burning fire from the 1960's. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle, and the dimensions were about 13.50 meters by 6.50 meters and reached the depth of about 4.50 meters. The grave contained crematory remains. The estimated volume was about 400 meters.

Grave Pit No.16

Located in the north-western part of the camp, under the third existing concrete ever-burning fire. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 18.50 meters by 9.50 meters, with the depth of about 4 meters. In the bottom layers lime presence was found. The grave contained crematory ashes in layers with sand. The shallow drilling close to the grave confirmed the presence of burnt bones. The volume of the grave amounted to about 700 meters.

Grave Pit No. 17

Located east of grave No.16. The grave had the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 17 meters by 7.50 meters with a depth up to 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes. Burnt bones were also placed in layers with sand. A layer of rich lime was found in three drills at the depth of about 3 meters. The volume of the grave amounted to about 500 meters.

Grave Pit No.18

Located in the eastern part of the camp, to the east of the grave pit No. 15. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 16 meters by 9 meters with a depth of about 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes and charcoal. In the bottom part traces of lime were found. The volume of the grave amounted to about 570 meters.

Grave Pit No. 19

Located in the eastern part of the camp, directly under the first concrete fire. The ditch had the shape of a square with sides of about 12 meters. The depth of the grave was not more than 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes with a high density of human bones and charcoal. The volume of the grave amounted to about 500 meters.

Grave Pit No. 20

This grave was situated directly to the south of Grave Pit No.12 and its western part exceeded slightly the present enclosure of the camp. The grave had the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 26 meters by 11 meters, with a depth of 5 meters. The grave contained layers of crematory remains and charcoal. The farthest western drill contained not only body ashes, but pieces of musty paper and wood, a piece of a nail and brick rubble. The volume of the grave amounted to about 1150 meters.

Grave Pit No. 21

Located centrally in the camp. This was a relatively small grave 5 meters by 5 meters, with a depth of 1.70 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes which were reported at a depth of 70 cm. The volume of the grave amounted to about 35 meters.

Grave Pit No. 22

Located in the eastern part of the camp, under the eastern end of the alley, running in front of the concrete pylons symbolising the graves, erected during the 1960's. The grave had a shape close to a flattened triangle with the base of about 9 meters and the height of 15 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes and sand. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 200 meters.

Grave Pit No. 23

Located in the central part of the camp. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 16 meters by 8.50 meters, with a depth exceeding 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 550 meters.

Grave Pit No.24

Located in the southern part of the camp, just to the south of the fifth concrete ever-burning fire. The grave had the shape of a lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 20 meters by 5.50 meters with the depth of about 5 meters. The grave contained irregular layers of crematory ashes and lime. The lowest layer of ashes with the thickness circa 60 cm was covered with about 40 cm thick layer of sand. Above that regular surface of body ashes and sand were reported. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 520 meters.

Grave Pit No.25

Located in the southern part of the camp under the alley, between the fifth and the sixth ever-burning fire. The dimensions of the grave was about 12 meters by 5 meters, with a depth of about 4 meters. The bottom of the grave contained 40 -50 cm layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation covered with a layer of lime. Above that there was a layer with the thickness of about 60 -80 cm, covered with an 80 cm layer of sand. Over it was another intensive layer of burnt wood with a thickness of 80-100 cm covered with a surface bed of humus-like sand. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 250 meters.

Grave Pit No.26

Located in the south central part of the camp, under the alley close to the sixth ever-burning fire. The grave had the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 13 meters by 7 meters with a depth of over 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes, with clear layers of ashes, charcoal and sand. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 320 meters.

Grave Pit No. 27

Located in the central part of the camp, towards the west of grave pit No. 25. It was the shape of a lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 18.50 meters by 6 meters with a depth of about 5 meters. The bottom part of the grave consisted of nearly 1 meter thick layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation, above it there was a 20-25 cm thick layer of lime - over 2 meter thick intensive layer of charcoal with small amounts of crematory ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 450 meters.

Grave Pit No.28

Located in the central part of the camp, towards the west of grave pit No. 27. Two clear layers of bodies in wax-fat transformation covered with lime were reported. Above them was found intensive structures of charcoal without body ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 70 meters.

Grave Pit No. 29

Located in the central part of the camp. It was the shape of an irregular rectangle with the dimensions of about 25 meters by 9 meters with a depth of about 4.50 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 900 meters.

Grave Pit No.30

Located in the central part of the camp. The dimensions of the grave was 5 meters by 6 meters. The crematory remains were noted only from the depth of 2.70 meters. Above that a high density of charcoal was found. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 75 meters.

Grave Pit No. 31

A relatively small grave located to the north from grave pit No. 30. The grave was probably in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 9 meters by 4 meters, with a depth of 2.60 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes, mixed with sandy soil. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 90 meters

Grave Pit No.32

Located in the north western corner of the presently enclosed area of the camp. The grave was the shape of a lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 15 meters by 5 meters, with the depth of over 4 meters. The grave contained bodies in wax-fat transformation, covered with lime at the depth of about 3.60 meters. Above that there was a mixed structure of crematory ashes with charcoal. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 400 meters.

Grave Pit No. 33

A relatively small grave located in the north-western corner of the presently existing borderline of the camp, which went beyond the fence. The grave had dimensions of 9 meters by 5 meters, with a depth of about 3 meters. The grave contained the remains of crematory ashes and charcoal. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 120 meters.

So according to Kola, the hard evidence is that nearly all of the graves contained cremains (as distinguished from charcoal or wood ash). I should remind you that 100 cubic inches of ash (the average yield when cremating a 100 pound human body) is = to 0.00163871 cubic meters. So 600 bodies (100 pounds each) yield 1 cubic meter of ash.

~20,000 cubic meters of grave space are claimed by Kola.

That's not hard evidence. That's someone writing stuff. Pictures are what count as evidence for mass graves. We've gone over this with you before multiple times.

[Hektor]

What somebody said years after the fact is not robust evidence for a mass murder program, especially on the scale alleged. People can say anything.

What does it matter if it's years later? Yes, people can say anything, at any time. That doesn't mean witness statements have no probative value.

But the hard evidence only corroborates the least spectacular aspects of the atrocity stories.

The hard evidence, eg from Kola's Belzec study, indicates mass burial and body destruction. As I pointed out in the 'physical evidence' thread, revisionists don't seem to have addressed the large presence of human cremains in these graves.

Grave Pit No. 1

The grave pit No. 1 was situated in the north-western part of the camp. It was in the shape of an irregular rectangle with the size of 40 meters by 12 meters and with a depth of 4.80 meters. The pit was filled with bodies in wax-fat, transformation; from the depth of about 2 meters burnt human bones and charcoal were mixed together. Such contents were already found at the depth of about 20-30 cm's from the surface. Burnt human bones and charcoal were also found samples drilled out in the area around the pit. Underground waters appeared at the depth of 4.10 meters. The estimated volume of the pit was about 1,500 meters.
....
Grave Pit No. 33

A relatively small grave located in the north-western corner of the presently existing borderline of the camp, which went beyond the fence. The grave had dimensions of 9 meters by 5 meters, with a depth of about 3 meters. The grave contained the remains of crematory ashes and charcoal. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 120 meters.

So according to Kola, the hard evidence is that nearly all of the graves contained cremains (as distinguished from charcoal or wood ash). I should remind you that 100 cubic inches of ash (the average yield when cremating a 100 pound human body) is = to 0.00163871 cubic meters. So 600 bodies (100 pounds each) yield 1 cubic meter of ash.

~20,000 cubic meters of grave space are claimed by Kola.

That's not hard evidence. That's someone writing stuff. Pictures are what count as evidence for mass graves. We've gone over this with you before multiple times.

That would be part of it. If one reads the statement, they found a pile of soil and then claim it contained ashes, charcoal, etc. How they determined this to be human remains, remains an open question. Also what the percentages per soil unit where. You can of course find something in a pile of soil that CAN BE human remains, but what would that proof.
This long list of investigated 'piles of soils from graves' sounds more like court room theatrics. Very persuasive to a believer, not convincing to a person that remains rational. Not at all... Rather to the contrary noticing that someone's trying to cheat here.

With the history of innuendo and manipulative tactics (their presentations are full of it), there is no reason to take this remotely seriously. But consider that believers will continue to treat this like a silver bullet.

Also. Let's say you find some human remains around those sites. Wasn't that a war zone during WW2? Wasn't this part of Communist Poland that continued to kill people even after WW2? How do they know, it wasn't from past events? From the Communist perspective it's perfectly plausible to use former concentration camp sites as areas were they could get rid of the bodies/human remains of their victims. If something was found they always could scape goat it on 'the Fascists did it'. And Marxists have that 'rationale' or rather technique to blame those they hate for stuff they caused themselves.

[Archie]

What somebody said years after the fact is not robust evidence for a mass murder program, especially on the scale alleged. People can say anything.

What does it matter if it's years later? Yes, people can say anything, at any time. That doesn't mean witness statements have no probative value.

Did I say NO probative value? No, I didn't. I said it is "not robust evidence" for the mass execution of millions of people. You should not need to resort to citing what Eichmann supposedly said on these secret tapes in the mid 1950s to prove what you are alleging happened. Frankly, if the holocaust had been real, it would have been well known while it was happening from 1941-1944.

As a rule, testimonies are ideally recorded as close to the events in question as possible. This is basic historical method and really just common sense. Several years later people don't remember as well, they have time to come up with other stories/lies or coordinate stories, they might be influenced by other stories they've heard, etc. In the case of Eichmann, we know he was "studying" from Reitlinger and other Holocaust authors. That is not good if we want to use him as a primary source. We don't want him spitting back material he read from postwar secondary sources. We do not have the full story on Eichmann, Sassen, etc and one of the parties involved, the Israeli government, is manifestly unreliable.

The hard evidence, eg from Kola's Belzec study, indicates mass burial and body destruction. As I pointed out in the 'physical evidence' thread, revisionists don't seem to have addressed the large presence of human cremains in these graves.

You do not have physical evidence for 600,000 people being killed there. We already talked about this. You said something like, well, maybe under certain convenient assumptions Kola's 21,000 cubic meters would theoretically be enough space to accommodate the cremains of a major city's worth of people. We could go back and forth with calculations on that point, but the larger matter is that you continue to ignore the problem of the initial burial of the 600,000 whole bodies and the difficulty of disinterring and burning this number of bodies. You are just jumping straight to the the cremains so you don't have to deal with the whole bodies. This is like skipping the first 25 miles of the marathon, finishing the only the last mile and brazenly proclaiming victory.

This is what Rudolf Reder claimed he saw at the camp.

The corpses were dragged into [already] dug pits measuring 100 x 25 x 15 meters. After a pit was full, which contained more than 100,000 /one hundred thousand/ corpses, the pits were sprinkled with slaked lime and filled with sand.

During the time I stayed in Bełżec, 30 graves were filled, which corresponds to the killing of 3,000,000 people.

This star witness of yours is claiming 75,000 square meters of grave space spread out among 30 mass graves. And 1,125,000 cubic meters of volume. Now, Kola supposedly found 33 graves which is superficially similar to Reder, but Kola's were way smaller and more irregularly shaped. The areas Kola indicates as graves covered only 6,000 square meters and 21,000 meters of volume. The samples for the vast majority of the camp were reported to be "no disruption - natural strata." That is not consistent at all with the claim that 600,000 people were killed and buried at the camp. There would be disturbed earth and traces of these bodies all through the whole camp. Not some ash in 10% of the samples.

[bombsaway]

Your excerpt/summary of Kola's 'study' as shown is misleading. What are his estimates for the number of bodies contained in each grave, and how does he justify it? As I recall, Mattogno (in "Belzec") focuses on this specifically and concludes an estimate of low thousands (perhaps even low ten thousands) at maximum, possibly less. The numbers matter, since cremation evidence tells us only what is obvious: bodies were cremated, and non-homicidal demands for this were abundant. Anything else you make of this is pure conjecture.

You're making the same basic mistake that Mattogno did. Yeah there aren't too many bodies in the graves. That's because when a body is cremated, it is destroyed. It ceases to be a body and becomes cremains. So yes, what Kola found at the site is consistent with the orthodox narrative (the bodies were destroyed, becoming ash, then dumped back into the graves). That a large volume of ash exists can be ascertained through Kola's descriptions above (as well as his diagrams). For some graves he provides an actual figure "The volume of crematory part is about 250 meters." (remember that roughly 600 bodies produce 1 cubic meter of ash). For some graves he describes the thickness of the ash layer. Eg grave pit 5 " Studies of its crematory layers structure suggested multiple filling of the grave with burnt relics. The layer with the biggest thickness and intensity of crematory contents appeared in the lowest part of the pit and was about 1 meter thick; above 50 cm thick layer of soil, 4 following layers of crematory remains appeared, separated from each other with 20-30 cm layers of sand." This grave was reported by Kola to have dimensions of 30x10 meters (300 meter area) so each layer is enormous.

If your contention is graves like this are commonplace, par for the course for Nazi Germany as well as other places, please provide comparable references. My contention is that they are not commonplace, that nothing remotely close to this scale (in terms of buried crematory content) has been discovered anywhere on earth.

To me the notion that Kola's findings, if taken at face value, support the revisionist case over the orthodox one is ridiculous. What is less ridiculous is that Kola fabricated the results to some degree. So in my opinion it is not accurate for revisionists to say that no physical evidence has been produced, but rather that physical evidence was fabricated to some degree.

As for Eichmann, I have not had the chance to get caught up on this thread but I do see some of the same things coming up as before. Remember:

• The photographed transcript is blurry, some half or more of the pages are totally illegible.
• The complete (legible) transcript is in an Israeli archive, no Revisionist can see it (this transcript also originated from an "anonymous source" and is, hence, dubious)
• The available audio (which is a small fraction of the original total) is in a German archive, and no Revisionist can see it

Stangneth was able to view/listen to the whole transcript/audio in writing her book. No Revisionist is able to do the same. That is clear, indisputable, undeniable evidence that the debate is substantially affected by manipulation and control tactics such as censorship and a disparity in access to information. No amount of mental gymnastics you engage in (or ask of us) can change this indisputable fact.

Yes revisionists are working at a disadvantage, but this isn't evidence of a conspiracy. The materials that have been released so far (long tape excerpt + transcripts half legible according to you, plus other more legible copies according to Wilbur) should give revisionists something to work on, but they haven't done anything thus far. Until they make some convincing (evidence based) arguments the Eichmann confession has probative value, far more than what revisionists have offered for any of their narratives. The single long excerpt linked on this forum suffices here, and I welcome you to present the strongest single piece of positive evidence for your side for purposes of comparison.

It is proven in this thread that Eichmann (1) was a serial liar, (2) lied about "extermination" specifically, (3) had several clear and undeniable motives to do so. When looking at the story of the Sassen interviews and of Eichmann's life at the time, the truth is obvious: Eichmann was not speaking truthfully to Sassen. Nor can we assume Sassen sought only to document truth, given his own financial gain in the matter.

You proved nothing of the sort. A serial liar is a person with a psychological disorder who lies compulsively for no reason. There's no evidence of this. Eichmann lied for personal benefit, as most people do. The only lie about extermination that I could see was that he underplayed it.

As for motives, just because you are able to list some doesn't mean they are actually "clear and undeniable". I criticized them here, explaining why they were nonsencial, and you made no response, declaring victory and exiting the thread. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14859&start=330#p109653

Similar to the resettlement/mass population transfer hypothesis this seems to be another example of revisionists unwilling to respond to close scrutiny of their narrative.

The areas Kola indicates as graves covered only 6,000 square meters and 21,000 meters of volume. The samples for the vast majority of the camp were reported to be "no disruption - natural strata." That is not consistent at all with the claim that 600,000 people were killed and buried at the camp. There would be disturbed earth and traces of these bodies all through the whole camp. Not some ash in 10% of the samples.

I'm not sure where you're getting 10% of the samples. By my count 31/33 graves reported by Kola contained ash (in most cases "ash layers" so they were spread throughout the entire grave). If samples taken from graves contained 10% ash, we can extrapolate 2000 cubic meters worth of ash on the site. I showed before that 1 cubic meter of ash = 600 destroyed bodies, so this means 2000 cubic meters = 1.2 million destroyed bodies. Kola's findings are perfectly consistent with the mass body destruction hypothesis.

[fireofice]

As for motives, just because you are able to list some doesn't mean they are actually "clear and undeniable". I criticized them here, explaining why they were nonsencial, and you made no response, declaring victory and exiting the thread. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14859&start=330#p109653

No, you didn't show they were "nonsensical". You just made up a bunch of nonsense on why you are incredulous. "He wouldn't traumatize revisionists for no reason" yet he made up fake gassing and U-boat gassing stories, so clearly false. "He only lied to minimize" also proven false with the same evidence. People make false confessions for attention and your refusal to accept this fact doesn't show anything is "nonsensical". Your whole statement that you linked there has been refuted multiple times before you even posted it, yet you posted it anyway and think you had something. Your linked response to Butterfangers is a complete joke. You have accepted Eichmann's story despite his absurd statements. I have shown why your rationalizations are nonsense and you've not been able to make any coherent reply.

[Hektor]

As for motives, just because you are able to list some doesn't mean they are actually "clear and undeniable". I criticized them here, explaining why they were nonsencial, and you made no response, declaring victory and exiting the thread. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14859&start=330#p109653

No, you didn't show they were "nonsensical". You just made up a bunch of nonsense on why you are incredulous. "He wouldn't traumatize revisionists for no reason" yet he made up fake gassing and U-boat gassing stories, so clearly false. "He only lied to minimize" also proven false with the same evidence. People make false confessions for attention and your refusal to accept this fact doesn't show anything is "nonsensical". Your whole statement that you linked there has been refuted multiple times before you even posted it, yet you posted it anyway and think you had something. Your linked response to Butterfangers is a complete joke. You have accepted Eichmann's story despite his absurd statements. I have shown why your rationalizations are nonsense and you've not been able to make any coherent reply.

People make false confessions under torture, but this isn't the most efficient way... It tends to backfire. Far more efficient are psychological pressures. And those work best, when a person is alone and isolated... This was the case with "Eichmann in Jerusalem"... Also effective: Monstrous accusations against people that are innocent, since they aren't really prepared for what is happening. The hardened criminal is in a far better position in court than a run of the mill innocent person that gets accused of something outrageous.

That leaves open other questions. E.g. what Eichmann's relationship was with intelligence services prior to be in Israeli hands. There are several ex-SS men that were working with Israeli Intelligence. And well, there can be a myriad of other factors we don't even know about. The permanent lying of 'witnesses' in the court room will also have charged up the atmosphere in that theatre redeclared to be a court room. The monstrosity of the story protected those proceedings also against a lot of scrutiny e.g. a court case about real crimes would be against some ordinary figure in a European country. The RAF-trials in Germany were such an example. The fact that the leadership of an organization that committed 'political crimes' had the whole media through the political spectrum on it. Essentially everything police, courts, prosecution, judges were doing was watched. And it was in the critique the awaiting-trial prisoners got all kinds of favor normal prisoners would not have gotten.... Which also indicated political interference there.

[hermod]

Honestly, the whole alleged-Eichmann-tapes thing is no big deal. Anybody can fabricate fake recordings of people saying anything. Now your iPhone can clone anybody's voice in just 15 minutes.

A new AI voice tool is already being abused to make deepfake celebrity audio clips

This is why we can't have nice things.

Mariella Moon|@mariella_moon|January 31, 2023 4:46 AM

A few days ago, speech AI startup ElevenLabs launched a beta version of its platform that gives users the power to create entirely new synthetic voices for text-to-speech audio or to clone somebody's voice. Well, it only took the internet a few days to start using the latter for vile purposes. The company has revealed on Twitter that it's seeing an "increasing number of voice cloning misuse cases" and that it's thinking of a way to address the problem by "implementing additional safeguards."

While ElevenLabs didn't elaborate on what it meant by "misuse cases," Motherboard found 4chan posts with clips featuring generated voices that sound like celebrities reading or saying something questionable. One clip, for instance, reportedly featured a voice that sounded like Emma Watson reading a part of Mein Kampf. Users also posted voice clips that feature homophobic, transphobic, violent and racist sentiments. It's not entirely clear if all the clips used ElevenLab's technology, but a post with a wide collection of the voice files on 4chan included a link to the startup's platform.

Perhaps this emergence of "deepfake" audio clips shouldn't come as a surprise, seeing as a few years ago, we'd seen a similar phenomenon take place. Advances in AI and machine learning had led to a rise in deepfake videos, specifically deepfake pornography, wherein existing pornographic materials are altered to use the faces of celebrities. And, yes, people used Emma Watson's face for some of those videos.

ElevenLabs is now gathering feedback on how to prevent users from abusing its technology. At the moment, its current ideas include adding more layers to its account verification to enable voice cloning, such as requiring users to enter payment info or an ID. It's also considering having users verify copyright ownership of the voice they want to clone, such as getting them to submit a sample with prompted text. Finally, the company is thinking of dropping its Voice Lab tool altogether and having users submit voice cloning requests that it has to manually verify.

https://www.engadget.com/ai-voice-tool- ... 57E9RhAu0z

ACTRESS EMMA WATSON READS "MEIN KAMPF" (AI GENERATED)

TO HONOR HILTLER'S BIRTHDAY EMMA WATSON READS MEIN KAMPF -
THE STATE - VOLUME 2 CHAPTER 2

AI-generated fake recording of Joe Biden talking about trannies
https://poa.st/@Wyatt/posts/ASBERy3rw04qcjhNOS

AI-generated fake recording of Donald Trump talking about Epstein's island
https://poa.st/@Wyatt/posts/ASBeWc9rOayCwpNSQC

AI-generated fake recording of Obi-Wan Kenobi talking about the exotic teenage alien apprentice of Luke Skywalker's father
https://poa.st/@Wyatt/posts/ASBUnBxD4lIN3hj5cG

New iPhone feature will clone your voice in just 15 minutes
Updated on: 18 May 2023
Justinas Vainilavičius
Senior Journalist

The new feature, which will allow iPhone and iPad users to generate synthetic versions of their voices, is part of a larger update aimed at making sure people with disabilities get the most from their Apple devices.

Personal Voice will allow users at risk of losing their ability to speak, such as those with a recent diagnosis of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) or other conditions, to replicate their voice.

Apple said that the process will be “simple and secure” and will only take 15 minutes. Users will be able to clone their voice by reading a randomised set of text prompts for a quarter of an hour on their iPhone or iPad.

Personal Voice, which is expected with the iOS 17 update, will work in tandem with the Live Speech feature that lets users type what they want to say and have it spoken out loud during phone calls or in-person conversations.

The most commonly used phrases can be saved as shortcuts.

Philip Green, board member and ALS advocate at the Team Gleason nonprofit, said the voice cloning feature was “extraordinary.”

“At the end of the day, the most important thing is being able to communicate with friends and family,” Green, who has experienced significant changes to his voice since being diagnosed with ALS in 2018, said.

He added: “If you can tell them you love them, in a voice that sounds like you, it makes all the difference in the world.”

https://cybernews.com/tech/iphone-clone ... n-minutes/

[fireofice]

Far more efficient are psychological pressures.

Exactly. And how hypocritical it is of BA to put so much weight on the fact that Eichmann was talking to revisionists while ignoring the psychological pressure elsewhere in the opposite direction. If the revisionists he was talking to were supposed to have this oh-so-great effect on Eichmann to deny everything, then to just completely ignore the other psychological pressures is completely hypocritical.

Sure, holo-propagnda wasn't as strong then as it is today. For example, John Beaty was able to write a book that denied the holocaust and have it endorsed by other US military leaders (which has all other kinds of problems for the orthodox narrative, as Butz showed that it was basically impossible for the US government to not know about the holocaust, yet here we have a significant US military leaders endorsing its denial). But the fact that Beaty felt like he had to say it indicates that holo-propaganda existed to some significant extent even back then. And from Eichmann's perspective being a wanted man, it would play a bigger psychological role than the rest of the population.

The mere fact that we have general psychological pressure on this topic shows that the idea of "non coercive confessions" is a myth. It's impossible for there to be no coercion with this level of psychological pressure.

[Archie]

The areas Kola indicates as graves covered only 6,000 square meters and 21,000 meters of volume. The samples for the vast majority of the camp were reported to be "no disruption - natural strata." That is not consistent at all with the claim that 600,000 people were killed and buried at the camp. There would be disturbed earth and traces of these bodies all through the whole camp. Not some ash in 10% of the samples.

I'm not sure where you're getting 10% of the samples. By my count 31/33 graves reported by Kola contained ash (in most cases "ash layers" so they were spread throughout the entire grave). If samples taken from graves contained 10% ash, we can extrapolate 2000 cubic meters worth of ash on the site. I showed before that 1 cubic meter of ash = 600 destroyed bodies, so this means 2000 cubic meters = 1.2 million destroyed bodies. Kola's findings are perfectly consistent with the mass body destruction hypothesis.

Take a look at the map I posted. Kola took 2,227 samples, spaced 5m apart. Of these, he reported human remains in only 236 of the samples. This is approximately 10%. In other words, no remains in 90% of the camp, and often not even any ground disturbance. It is from these positive samples that he came up with his "33 graves," somewhat arbitrarily. In the study, he presented detail on only 137 of the positive samples, presumably the most significant ones. From the scans I've seen online, I can't make out the details very well on the positive samples and of course it's totally impossible to actually purchase the book. Which is odd, given that it supposedly proves the holocaust.

To repeat myself, since you do not seem to have understood the point: Kola says the graves had a surface area of 6,000 square meters (actually 5,490). That's with his liberal assumptions regarding the grave boundaries. The story is that they buried 600,000 whole bodies there at the camp and dug them up and burned them later on. But they could not have buried 600,000 bodies in haphazard graves of <6,000 square meters. That would be 100+ bodies/square meter. For comparison, at Katyn, there were ~8-9 bodies per square meter. At that density you'd have only ~50,000 initial bodies in the Kola graves. And of course it could be far less (if anything the Katyn graves seem to have been far more orderly and planned out that Kola's map).

Another point you ignored is the fact that Kola's work does not corroborate your witnesses like Reder who said there were 30 pits, each one 100x25 meters. The largest grave estimated by Kola was 40x12, and if you look at the actual samples you will see this is an aggressive estimate and it could easily be three smaller graves. Most of the graves Kola lists as much smaller. One is said to 5x5 meters (based on ONE positive sample).

[bombsaway]

Take a look at the map I posted. Kola took 2,227 samples, spaced 5m apart. Of these, he reported human remains in only 236 of the samples. This is approximately 10%. In other words, no remains in 90% of the camp, and often not even any ground disturbance. It is from these positive samples that he came up with his "33 graves," somewhat arbitrarily. In the study, he presented detail on only 137 of the positive samples, presumably the most significant ones. From the scans I've seen online, I can't make out the details very well on the positive samples and of course it's totally impossible to actually purchase the book. Which is odd, given that it supposedly proves the holocaust.

To repeat myself, since you do not seem to have understood the point: Kola says the graves had a surface area of 6,000 square meters (actually 5,490). That's with his liberal assumptions regarding the grave boundaries. The story is that they buried 600,000 whole bodies there at the camp and dug them up and burned them later on. But they could not have buried 600,000 bodies in haphazard graves of <6,000 square meters. That would be 100+ bodies/square meter. For comparison, at Katyn, there were ~8-9 bodies per square meter. At that density you'd have only ~50,000 initial bodies in the Kola graves. And of course it could be far less (if anything the Katyn graves seem to have been far more orderly and planned out that Kola's map).

I was limiting discussion as much as I could to Kola's study, but yes, there has been debate about whether the graves could fit 450k to 600k bodies. I believe this was argued exhaustively to be possible by HC blog. They should have saved their breath though, because bodies were being burned in the summer of 42.

https://www.ns-archiv.de/verfolgung/pol ... edlung.php

So this: "The story is that they buried 600,000 whole bodies there at the camp and dug them up and burned them later on. " is not actually the story.

Another point you ignored is the fact that Kola's work does not corroborate your witnesses like Reder who said there were 30 pits, each one 100x25 meters. The largest grave estimated by Kola was 40x12, and if you look at the actual samples you will see this is an aggressive estimate and it could easily be three smaller graves. Most of the graves Kola lists as much smaller. One is said to 5x5 meters (based on ONE positive sample).

Kola was able to identify graves by homogeneous content often deposited in layers, which had consistency for all samples taken. Eg with grave 5

"Located in the south-western part of the camp. The grave had the shape of an irregular lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 32 meters by 10 meters, reaching a depth of over 4.5 meters. It was of a homogenous content. Studies of its crematory layers structure suggested multiple filling of the grave with burnt relics. The layer with the biggest thickness and intensity of crematory contents appeared in the lowest part of the pit and was about 1 meter thick; above 50 cm thick layer of soil, 4 following layers of crematory remains appeared, separated from each other with 20-30 cm layers of sand. The volume of the pit was about 1350 meters."

So he says it was 1 grave instead of 4 or 5 graves with similar contents.

Regarding Reder, he never claimed to be working at the grave sites, but rather at the gas chambers, so his knowledge there was limited. There's also no indication he had a photographic memory or was an engineer with clear ability to understand proportion and objective distance. His testimony is problematic in a way that is common and expected with witness testimony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyewitness_testimony

Kola's study is available in libraries https://www.worldcat.org/title/50149754

[curioussoul]

Take a look at the map I posted. Kola took 2,227 samples, spaced 5m apart. Of these, he reported human remains in only 236 of the samples. This is approximately 10%. In other words, no remains in 90% of the camp, and often not even any ground disturbance. It is from these positive samples that he came up with his "33 graves," somewhat arbitrarily. In the study, he presented detail on only 137 of the positive samples, presumably the most significant ones. From the scans I've seen online, I can't make out the details very well on the positive samples and of course it's totally impossible to actually purchase the book. Which is odd, given that it supposedly proves the holocaust.

To repeat myself, since you do not seem to have understood the point: Kola says the graves had a surface area of 6,000 square meters (actually 5,490). That's with his liberal assumptions regarding the grave boundaries. The story is that they buried 600,000 whole bodies there at the camp and dug them up and burned them later on. But they could not have buried 600,000 bodies in haphazard graves of <6,000 square meters. That would be 100+ bodies/square meter. For comparison, at Katyn, there were ~8-9 bodies per square meter. At that density you'd have only ~50,000 initial bodies in the Kola graves. And of course it could be far less (if anything the Katyn graves seem to have been far more orderly and planned out that Kola's map).

Another point you ignored is the fact that Kola's work does not corroborate your witnesses like Reder who said there were 30 pits, each one 100x25 meters. The largest grave estimated by Kola was 40x12, and if you look at the actual samples you will see this is an aggressive estimate and it could easily be three smaller graves. Most of the graves Kola lists as much smaller. One is said to 5x5 meters (based on ONE positive sample).

Precisely. Excellent summary of the Kola debacle.

Let me also point out that these findings fit squarely into the revisionist hypothesis, whereas they are completely unsustainable within the framework of the official extermination thesis. Not only do revisionists concede that large numbers of Jews plausibly died within the Reinhard camps, either from work, deprivation, executions, escape attempts, and from the trains, but it's even conceivable that particularly fragile and brittle Jews were "mercy-killed" upon arrival, since they would not survive further deportation and resettlment in the East.

Even assuming Kola's extremely generous assumptions about the grave boundaries and their contents are accurate, these graves can solely be explained if we accept - as some orthodox Holocaust historians do - that some 5% of the deportees could have died during the train ride to Belzec.

No one has ever pretended that there would not be any graves or deaths in the Reinhard camps. The findings by Kola and Sturdy Colls in regard to Belzec and Treblinka corroborate the revisionist hypothesis and seriously undermine the official thesis. Only for Sobibor are the purported grave sizes somewhat compatible with the claimed death tolls, but that's only if we assume the absurdly generous assumptions made by orthodox researchers. And Sobibor was also the smallest of the three camps by a long shot.

[curioussoul]

I was limiting discussion as much as I could to Kola's study, but yes, there has been debate about whether the graves could fit 450k to 600k bodies. I believe this was argued exhaustively to be possible by HC blog. They should have saved their breath though, because bodies were being burned in the summer of 42.

What's your source for the idea that bodies were being burned in Belzec "in the summer of 42"? According to the official narrative, the first open-air cremations in any of the Reinhard camps occured in October of 1942 in Sobibor. Belzec did not start cremating corpses until December, when the camp was practically in the process of shutting down.

Obviously, Holocaust affirmers are going to argue "extensively" for anything that affirms their unsustainable fantasies regarding the corpse density in the purported mass graves. Whether or not their arguments hold up under critical scutiny is a whole other matter.

Regarding Reder, he never claimed to be working at the grave sites, but rather at the gas chambers, so his knowledge there was limited. There's also no indication he had a photographic memory or was an engineer with clear ability to understand proportion and objective distance. His testimony is problematic in a way that is common and expected with witness testimony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyewitness_testimony

None of Reder's ridiculous lies are "common and expected" from eyewitness testimonies. Let me, by the way, highlight the fact that Reder lied about having testified in trials he never attended, and lied innumerable times about when and how he was deported to Belzec. He lied about the background story and how he was "found out" and gave disparate explanations for how he was deported and when he arrived at the camp.

It's simply impossible to pretend that Reder is in any way a credible witness.

Kola's study is available in libraries https://www.worldcat.org/title/50149754

The point isn't that Kola's book can theoretically be found in about 40 (!) libraries in Europe. The point is that it's almost impossible for any normal person to find a copy of this most-important Holocaust study unless you live in a European capital or close to a prominent university library. This is not normal. Similarly, many important Holocaust books are extremely hard to find, such as Pressac's original Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers or John C. Zimmermann's response to Mattogno. This is partly because actual primary research on the Holocaust is very rare; most "research" into the Holocaust appear to be mere moralism, or it approaches the topic only tangentially and not in terms of actual historiographical research. Such research tends to be rather embarrassing for the official narrative - better not bring too much attention to the crippling mess of the evidentiary corpus for the Holocaust.