T-4 and Euthanasia: an understated problem for Revisionism?

[Otium]

From what I'm getting from this, 70,000 were euthanized as part of the "official" T4 program. But apparently the 300,000 number comes from when it was no longer "official". How documented is this and what supposed "archives" lead them to conclude this?

Wikipedia cites a statement given by the German Federal Archive. In it they write the following:

Between 1939 and 1945, a total of approximately 200,000 women, men and children from psychiatric institutions in the German Reich were murdered in several covert actions by gassing, medication or inadequate nutrition. In addition, there were nearly 100,000 more murders of psychiatric patients in the occupied or annexed territories. Approximately one third of the patient murders in the Old Reich occurred in the course of the so-called T4 action in a first, centrally directed phase. For this purpose, employees of the Chancellery of the Führer and the Reich Ministry of the Interior set up a secret organization in Berlin at the end of 1939, which was called "T4" after its address at Tiergartenstraße 4.

After inspecting the patient files sent to Berlin, medical experts there decided on the life and death of the sick or disabled people until August 1941. About 70,000 people were gassed in six central facilities in Grafeneck, Brandenburg/Havel, Hartheim, Pirna/Sonnenstein, Bernburg and Hadamar by the time this first wave of killing was completed on August 24, 1941. In the following years, the doctors themselves decided on life and death, mainly in the individual psychiatric institutions.

The German Reich Department holds the 30,000 patient files from the first phase of the so-called "euthanasia" that were discovered in 1990 in the former "NS Archive" of the Ministry for State Security of the GDR. The remaining 40,000 files must be considered destroyed.

These patient files are subject to special conditions of use in accordance with the provisions of the Federal Archives Act. They may be inspected in particular for scientific research projects as well as by next of kin to safeguard legitimate interests. However, neither events of the last days of life nor dates of death were recorded in the patient files; for this, the present-day memorials of the six gassing facilities with their lists of the dead are the points of contact.

Since August 2018, the Federal Archives has made the indexing information of the medical records with the respective personal data (names, dates of birth, names of the last institutions) available on the Internet via its research application invenio. [Note: When using the Firefox browser, there are currently unfortunately line shifts in the display of the indexing information. The technical service provider is working on correcting the error].

At the same time, a clear list of persons for whom patient files are available in the Federal Archives is published here.

Finally, the Bundesarchiv offers its users an online overview (inventory) of archival sources on the history of "euthanasia" from 1939-1945 in archives and other institutions in Germany, Austria, Poland and the Czech Republic.

In this article they link to a pdf which contains a full list of all the people in the surviving patient files held by the Federal Archives: 'Names of victims of Nazi "euthanasia" for whom patient files are available in Federal Archive fonds R 179.' - https://www.bundesarchiv.de/DE/Content/Downloads/Aus-unserer-Arbeit/liste-patientenakten-euthanasie.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

They say the other 40,000 files must be presumed to have been destroyed, I don't then know on what basis they come to the 70,000 figure. They simply don't say here. Nor do they supply any proof for the 300,000 figure. However, they do link to another page on the Federal Archives website which purports to explain the sources for Euthanasia: https://www.bundesarchiv.de/geschichte_euthanasie/ You'd probably have more luck here.

They link to 3 different pdfs which contains information of the introduction to the sources in Germany/Austria, Poland, and the Czech protectorate:

Introduction to sources in Germany and Austria
https://www.bundesarchiv.de/geschichte_euthanasie/Inventar_euth_doe.pdf

Introduction to sources in Poland
https://www.bundesarchiv.de/geschichte_euthanasie/Inventar_euth_polen.pdf

Introduction to sources in the Czech Republic
https://www.bundesarchiv.de/geschichte_euthanasie/Inventar_euth_tsch.pdf

I have maintained for a while that this topic has always needed to be addressed in a Holocaust Handbook or something.

[Hektor]

And that's how wikipedia works. The pick some official report, from governments or academia and then sell this as the 'final truth'.

With the 'federal government' in Germany it's of course that they have a vested interest to paint the NS-administration into the worst colors possible. They try to let it look credible of course, too. They call Euthanasia during NS murder (which is a legal term with some moral/emotional load). But won't do the same for euthanasia elsewhere or under other regimes. Neither would they call abortion murder of course. In fact there is denial that the unborn are human beings.

The funny thing is that they essentially have Euthanasia documents from the STASI as key source. There couldn't be ulterior motives for such documents?

The thing is that there is actual documentation for Euthanasia as well as case documentation. There is the Euthanasia decree by Adolf Hitler, which is wrongfully called the 'Euthanasia Order', while it's actually an extension of powers for a number of doctors whether incurably sick patients should be euthanized. Then there are case documentations. Now what they claim is that there were far more cases than the actually documented ones. While that isn't impossible, they don't know this neither. If they were honest, they wouldn't peddle the expanded figure. What they could say is that they have XYZ documents of cases of Euthanasia, but that there could be more cases for which there is not enough evidence. That would be the honest way to do it. But they are obsessed with painting the NS-era into the worst possible light and that clouds any claims they make about it.

They also never address the reasons for Euthanasia. E.g. that Germany was facing a major resource problem. The resources necessary to care for the incurably sick were competing with resources for soldiers and other civilians. In war time they may need more resources than in peace time. Simply because there were more injured and wounded people.

Another issue is why there may have been so many incurably sick. And that is because the German Healthcare System was working quite well. More sick people survived and that gives you more long term patients over time. Of course, when Germany was collapsing proper healthcare on pre-war levels became impossible, which means that more people would die. Those figures they try to drag into the Euthanasia account as well. Despicably dishonest, while having a bit more of a factual based than the Holocaust of course.

[Nazgul]

The T4 program did develop into Aktion 14f13, euthanasia of the decrepit in camps. In all my readings this is evident, lawful, though by todays standards abhorrent. It was expediency in a time of desperate shortages; difficult decisions were thrust upon the government, due to war only. Certainly not for hatred of a group of people. This protocol took about 20 thousand lives. I cannot distinguish in any honest witness statement, where this equates to mass murder of Jews. Everyone, including Germans (SS and Heer) were subject to this law or similar. Most were shot.

It is this protocol that been expanded into the "Holocaust". If people read the Dutch Sobibor witness statements it is evident that only the old and disabled were put into tippers and disposed of. Nessie has sprouted on for almost a decade about "useless" eaters being gassed. Witnesses like Pierre Berg, Schlomo Pivnik all feared for their lives once they got ill.

I cannot distinguish between 14f13 and similar, to the holocaust claims, with exception of the volume and ethnicity.

[Hektor]

The T4 program did develop into Aktion 14f13, euthanasia of the decrepit in camps. In all my readings this is evident, lawful, though by todays standards abhorrent. It was expediency in a time of desperate shortages; difficult decisions were thrust upon the government, due to war only. Certainly not for hatred of a group of people. This protocol took about 20 thousand lives. I cannot distinguish in any honest witness statement, where this equates to mass murder of Jews. Everyone, including Germans (SS and Heer) were subject to this law or similar. Most were shot.

It is this protocol that been expanded into the "Holocaust". If people read the Dutch Sobibor witness statements it is evident that only the old and disabled were put into tippers and disposed of. Nessie has sprouted on for almost a decade about "useless" eaters being gassed. Witnesses like Pierre Berg, Schlomo Pivnik all feared for their lives once they got ill.

I cannot distinguish between 14f13 and similar, to the holocaust claims, with exception of the volume and ethnicity.

Too much innuendo there again.
- 'Disposed off'? What does that mean?
- 'useless eaters gassed'? How do you know?

[Nazgul]

- 'Disposed off'? What does that mean?

To get rid of something; throw out or destroy Cambridge Dictionary

I gave a link to the Dutch Survivors that allude to that definition. Here are statements that refer possibly to 14f123 which is the point I was trying to make. I did not notice mention of 14f13 in the thread so thought I would bring it up in case someone had some information on this alleged action. It may have been debunked.

This is an article on 14f13 aka "Sonderbehandlung 14f13"

Action 14f13, also called Sonderbehandlung. Also called invalid or prisoner euthanasia, the sick, the elderly and those prisoners who were no longer deemed fit for work were separated from the rest of the prisoners during a selection process, after which they were euthanized.

The number of people murdered under Aktion 14f13 is not certain but scholarly literature puts the figure at between 15,000 and 20,000 people for the period ending in 1943. link

The following "Dutch Survivors" of Sobibor made the following statements. These appear to align with Sonderbehandlung 14f13 if it occurred and if the statements can be considered truthful and reliable. I have given the transport dates which show similar actions at different dates regarding the decrepit, tippers and narrow gauge rail. These are first hand accounts though what happened afterwards is hearsay and conjecture.

Alex Cohen..17 march 43--Sick and disabled prisoners had already been hauled onto tippers and taken on a narrow gauge railway straight into the so-called Lager III. Here the tippers were unloaded and the victims were shot; their bodies were thrown into a huge burial pit.

Judith Eliazar..10 March 43--They did see how the disabled and elderly in their transport were hauled on to tippers and driven into the camp on a narrow-gauge railway. The prisoners were told to line up along its edge, and then the camp SS would order the firing squad consisting of Ukrainian guards to shoot them.


Ursula Stern..6 April 1943--The elderly and disabled were immediately hauled on to tippers

Josef Winz..11 May 1943--elderly and sick people were thrown onto tippers.

- 'useless eaters gassed'? How do you know?

I am referring to the statements often stated by believers. I am not stating they were gassed but that is the consensus and written by the author below. It is a phrase often used by believers such as Nessie

Richard Rieser.--Lest We Forget: Eradicating the 'Useless Eaters' in the Third Reich.
The mass killing methods of the concentration camps were perfected here- Cyclon B gas . link

[Hektor]

It's clear that those unfit for work were separated. There doesn't have to be anything sinister with this. But that's insinuated via citing hearsay and that 'the experts reached a consensus' on this. And who then challenges or disputes this is 'a Holocaust Deniers and Anti-Semite'.

Sure one would need some more evidence for such allegations than just some hear-say report of people that may have an axe to grind.
Indeed one would, if the accused weren't 'Nazis' and this wouldn't be world war two. But given it it, this can of course. Actually unbelievable, when the same people play the 'objective scientists' with every opportunity.