Mass Graves / Serniki

[Clem]

MGS

What of the rest of you?

Why are you asking questions when you are dodging so many others?

MGS

there are more pictures; they're just not available online for free.

MGS, do you have the link to these phantom pictures?

MGS

As an FYI, it took me five minutes to find the book online for free.

Unless and until I get answers to my questions and see the links to the book online for free and the phantom pictures and get a chance to look at them, my answer is no.

The only reason I can think of for MGS not providing the asked for links is he's lying.

[Moderator]

'Mass Grave Survivor',
You have been repeatedly challenged to produce information you say exists. Dodging is not permitted at this forum. If you cannot answer the challenges to your assertions you must leave the thread. It's in the guidelines which you agreed to when you registered.
Thank you, Moderator

[SevenUp]

As an FYI, it took me five minutes to find the book online for free. I also spent a grand total of $5 US to get Bevan's book shipped to me. So there's that.

If you have a link to the online copy of the book, post it, enough of this nonsense !

[Hannover]

SevenUp,
MSG cannot back up his claims or he would have.

MSG said:

One vote for the grave existing (7up) and one vote against (Hannover).

Let's be clear here. I stated that given the information so far I do not buy the story that this is a 'holocaust' mass grave. There may be a grave there, but there is absolutely nothing to confirm it being 'holocaust' related. My many other questions & points remain unanswered.
I looked at the video and as Clem stated, all we see is one skull. There is no verification of anything. In the text alongside we read that Wright supposedly confirmed that the SS was responsible. It says that through carbon dating he could determine it was not the work of Stalin's people which is utterly bizarre. Stalin existed during the period of the SS. If he wants the reader to believe that it was not the work of Stalin after WWII I suggest that carbon dating is not accurate enough to tell a difference of days, weeks, even months after WWII ended. Stalin's murderous rampage occurred during and after WWII, no one disputes that. It also stated that German bullet casings were supposedly found. That does not help the position of the Believers, German bullets were used by the Soviets at Katyn, the Germans sold firearms and ammo to the Soviets before the war, German ammo was readily available through capture and stocks were found aplenty immediately after the war. One must want to believe this story about Serniki in order to believe it.

Given all that has been posted so far, the entire matter smells of a cover-up. What the Believers hoped they would find they did not find. That is blatantly obvious.

- Hannover

[Mass Grave Survivor]

I have repeatedly said that I will discuss perpetrators and victims once it's established that this grave actually exists. If you're going to ask for me to read posts, then you should as well.

If we can agree that the grave actually exists, then I'll continue with my case. In good faith, I intend to demonstrate two things. First the victims in the grave are the Jews of Serniki. Second, that the perpetrators were the SS Security Police based in Rovno or Pinsk (probably Rovno, but possibly Pinsk, possibly both) along with Ukrainian auxiliaries.

I can do perpetrators or victims, but Im not going to waste my time if we're going to quibble over the existence of the grave itself. Make sense?

[Inquisitor]

I have repeatedly said that I will discuss perpetrators and victims once it's established that this grave actually exists. If you're going to ask for me to read posts, then you should as well.

If we can agree that the grave actually exists, then I'll continue with my case. In good faith, I intend to demonstrate two things. First the victims in the grave are the Jews of Serniki. Second, that the perpetrators were the SS Security Police based in Rovno or Pinsk (probably Rovno, but possibly Pinsk, possibly both) along with Ukrainian auxiliaries.

I can do perpetrators or victims, but Im not going to waste my time if we're going to quibble over the existence of the grave itself. Make sense?

No, it doesn't make sense. You don't come to an internet debate forum and demand that a debate be carried out ONLY under the conditions YOU prescribe! You are clearly playing games here - you should just present the evidence you CLAIM to possess and then a discussion/debate can procede. It is ridiculous to demand that forum members first concede that this mass-grave does or doesn't exist, when questions surrounding its very existence are part and parcel of debate on the subject.

You plainly feel confident you have some evidence of National Socialist wickedness, and can prove the particulars of it - so why not stop with the cat and mouse nonsense and put some real cards on the table - then people can discuss the matter intelligently.

Seems fair, no?

[Moderator]

Mass Grave Survivor:
If your next post in this thread is not an attempt to answer the challenges put to you, you will no longer be able to post to this thread. The 'no dodging' guideline is there to prevent the sort of silliness you are engaged in. This silliness ends now.
Moderator1

[EtienneSC]

Mass Grave Survivor:
If your next post in this thread is not an attempt to answer the challenges put to you, you will no longer be able to post to this thread. The 'no dodging' guideline is there to prevent the sort of silliness you are engaged in. This silliness ends now.
Moderator1

I don't have a problem with hearing what MGS has to say. He has referred to several books and court testimony that it would obviously be onerous financially and in terms of time for many of us to look much further into, but there is obviously some prima facie basis for what he has said. It is easy enough to hound someone to supply further evidence, however much he has provided. On the other hand, MGS's request that we should concede that a mass grave exists "in Serniki" is perhaps unnecessary for his argument to proceed, as we cannot verify the evidence like a jury in a court of law and so it is not unreasonable for us to suspend judgement, as we are playing the role of sceptical listeners. If we can hear the rest of what MGS has to say, we will be able to judge it as a whole. Shootings of civilians do occur in wars as acts of reprisals against partisans, so the grave and accompanying narrative does not establish a "holocaust" in any case. Let's hear what MGS has to say.

[Moderator]

EtienneSC:

I don't have a problem with hearing what MGS has to say. He has referred to several books and court testimony that it would obviously be onerous financially and in terms of time for many of us to look much further into, but there is obviously some prima facie basis for what he has said. It is easy enough to hound someone to supply further evidence, however much he has provided. On the other hand, MGS's request that we should concede that a mass grave exists "in Serniki" is perhaps unnecessary for his argument to proceed, as we cannot verify the evidence like a jury in a court of law and so it is not unreasonable for us to suspend judgement, as we are playing the role of sceptical listeners. If we can hear the rest of what MGS has to say, we will be able to judge it as a whole. Shootings of civilians do occur in wars as acts of reprisals against partisans, so the grave and accompanying narrative does not establish a "holocaust" in any case. Let's hear what MGS has to say.

On the whole there is wisdom in what you say, but it was obvious that MSG was not / could not buttress his position, even though he claimed he could. I believe our registrants were more than patient with him. It seemed a strange, he had people who encouraged him to step up, but in the spotlight he stumbled.
If one starts a thread with a position of advocacy like MSG did, it is only logical that he will be challenged on his position (in fact, he was challenged repeatedly), and is only fair that he be expected to produce support for what he claims. As was stated, the onus is on the accuser.
A full reading of the thread indicates that MSG was not able or willing to come forward with what he seemed to claim was compelling information. His dancing around challenges is not acceptable at this forum, the guidelines are very clear. We are here to discuss / debate, and that is what we will do. Thanks for your thoughts.
Moderator

[The Warden]

As an example of how to excavate a grave, he gives a detailed description of how it was done at Serniki and how the bodies were identified.

Identified as what?

First the victims in the grave are the Jews of Serniki.

I'd like to know how they determined the remains are Jewish.
(We're not trying to match up remains to missing people off milk cartons here. We need some sort of scientific proof that concludes they are Jewish based on the remains alone, not witness testimonies or assumptions)

I'd also be interested in if and how they determined they were murdered. If the were shot, there should be bullet holes in every skull, not a few. There should also be the actual projectiles from each shooting in the area along with the spent cartridges. Soldiers didn't go around policing their brass. It should be exactly where it was fired, especially if we're to believe the murderers were doing this in an efficient, calculated manner.

And by who, and how did they determine who performed these alleged murders? Again, based on evidence found at the grave itself. No "convergences" here.

[Hannover]

I see that Andrew Mathis who posts as 'Rejoining Ash' and as 'Andrew Mathis' at http://www.unz.com has stated (among many things) that one should just Google 'Serniki mass graves' for proof of the 'holocaust' storyline, see this thread:
http://www.unz.com/article/purging-the-palestinians/
Note the growing support for Revisionism as shown in many posts.

So, to review Serniki here are some points with additions.
from:
http://www.holocaustremembrance.com/sit ... _Sites.pdf
REPORT
MASS GRAVES AND KILLING SITES IN
THE EASTERN PART OF EUROPE

- avoidance of this dodgy photo that was previously posted in this thread


- covered / obstructed 'mass grave' areas in various locations

- mass graves claimed in photos which show no mass graves, just pathways

- claimed pits with no human remains in them

from:
https://srebrenicamassacre1995.wordpres ... holocaust/
Tales of atrocity from the grave
Richard Wright
May 17, 2006

This is an edited version of a May 11 speech at the Sydney Jewish Museum, Darlinghurst, for the opening of the permanent exhibition Serniki: Unearthing the Holocaust.

A crappy Zionist source, highly biased and completely untrustworthy.
But what do we see?
A picture of ONE, that's ONE skeleton whose origin, date, identity, & location are completely unknown. Laughable.

The Katyn mass murder by Soviets site, what real forensic excavations look like:
http://codoh.com/media/files/documents/ ... atyn_v.pdf

- Hannover

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”.
Arthur Schopenhauer

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.

[borjastick]

Listen to this storyline from Richard Wright:

An awful scene had unfolded. As the eyewitnesses had said, they
were mostly women and children. The men were old men. They had been
herded down a ramp into the grave. One lot had gone to the left and been
shot while lying down within the grave; the others had gone to the right.
The majority had entry and exit wounds of bullets in their skulls. Some
of them had been clubbed.

The storyline is already questionable.

Anyway, Wright's claims are exactly that: claims. Is that the only photo? I'd like to see some photos of the bullets used, which were allegedly German. I'd like to see some other photos of the other alleged graves. I'd like to see photos of the entrance holes for the bullets.

Hidden in plain sight perhaps. I have become used to looking at the small things to see if the whole passes the smell test. Here we see the use of the word ramp. We've seen this word used many times before in descriptions of various aspects of the holocaust, usually without much evidence of course. It's jewish symbolism, nothing more.

As for the picture it looks decidedly dodgy to me and in fact I was thinking of Bosnia mass graves and similar when I looked at it.

[hermod]

Hidden in plain sight perhaps. I have become used to looking at the small things to see if the whole passes the smell test. Here we see the use of the word ramp. We've seen this word used many times before in descriptions of various aspects of the holocaust, usually without much evidence of course. It's jewish symbolism, nothing more.

True. In Jewish tradition, one was allowed to access sacrificial holocaust (Hebrew: korban olah) altars only via a ramp. Stairs strictly prohibited.