The Economy of Nazi Germany

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Re: The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby Otium » 2 years 5 months ago (Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:52 am)

Sebastian Haffner, a liberal conservative (John Lukacs, The Hitler of History (Alfred A. Knopf, 1997), Pp. 212) in his book 'The Meaning of Hitler' admits that one cannot blame Hitler for all ills, without thus awarding him with all successes. That some historians, layman, and political pundits only seek to credit Hitler with the former is revealing of their partisan attitude towards Hitler himself, and the era of the Third Reich in general. Haffner shows through his elucidating admissions, that the economic miracle was Hitler's achievement, and this cannot be downplayed no matter how much one might like to.

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Among these positive achievements of Hitler the one outshining all others was his economic miracle. The term did not then exist; it was coined, much later, for the astonishingly rapid reconstruction feat of the Erhard era in Western Germany after the Second World War, but it applies even better to what was taking place in Germany under Hitler during the mid thirties. There was then a much deeper and stronger impression that a real miracle was being accomplished, and that the man who accomplished it, Hitler, was a miracle worker.

In January 1933, when Hitler became Reich Chancellor, there were six million unemployed in Germany. A mere three years later, in 1936, there was full employment. Crying need and mass hardship had generally turned into modest but comfortable prosperity. Almost equally important: helplessness and hopelessness had given way to confidence and self-assurance. Even more miraculous was the fact that the transition from depression to economic boom had been accomplished without inflation, at totally stable wages and prices. Not even Ludwig Erhard succeeded in doing that later in post-war Western Germany.

It is difficult to picture adequately the grateful amazement with which the Germans reacted to that miracle, which, more particularly, made vast numbers of German workers switch from the Social Democrats and the Communists to Hitler after 1933. This grateful amazement entirely dominated the mood of the German masses during the 1936 to 1938 period and made anyone who still rejected Hitler seem a querulous fault-finder. ‘The man may have his faults, but he has given us work and bread again’ was the million-fold view during those years of former Social Democrat and Communist voters who in 1933 had still represented the great mass of Hitler’s opponents.

Was the German economic miracle of the thirties really Hitler’s achievement? In spite of all conceivable objections one will probably have to reply in the affirmative. It is entirely true that in matters of economics and economic policy Hitler was a layman; in the main the various ideas with which the economic miracle was set in motion did not come from him. In particular that giddy piece of financial virtuosity on which everything depended was clearly the work of another man, his ‘financial wizard’ Hjalmar Schacht. But it was Hitler who had appointed Schacht and who had given him a free hand, first to run the Reichsbank and then also the Ministry of Economic Affairs. And it was Hitler who had fished out from their pigeonholes all those reflation plans which had existed before him but which, before him, had fallen victim to all kinds of reservations, mainly of a financial nature. Hitler had them put into effect, from special tax vouchers, to the Labour Service, and to the autobahn. He was not a political economist and he had never dreamed that he would rise to power by way of an economic slump and with the task of liquidating mass unemployment. That was not his kind of task at all; economic matters, prior to 1933, had played virtually no part in his plans or political thinking. But he possessed enough political instinct to grasp that they were playing the main part just then and, surprisingly, he also had enough economic instinct to understand — unlike, for instance the unfortunate Chancellor Brüning, one of his predecessors — that expansion was more important at that moment than budgetary or monetary stability.

In addition, of course, unlike his predecessors, he also possessed the power to impose, by force, at least the semblance of monetary stability. After all, we must not disregard the seamy side of Hitler’s economic miracle. Since it was taking place amidst a continuing world-wide depression and was making Germany an island of prosperity, it required the isolation of the German economy from the outside world; and since its financing, of its very nature, was inevitably inflationary it required the imposition from above of fixed wages and prices. For a dictatorial regime, with concentration camps in the background, both these things were possible. Hitler had no need to consider either the employers’ associations or the trade unions because he could forcibly bring the two together in the ‘German Labour Front’ and thus paralyse them.

[...]

The economic miracle was Hitler’s most popular achievement but not his only one. At least as sensational, and just as unexpected, was the remilitarization and rearmament of Germany which was likewise successfully accomplished during the first six years of his rule. When Hitler became Reich Chancellor Germany had an army of 100,000 men without modern weapons, and it had no air force. By 1938 it was the strongest military and air power in Europe. An incredible achievement! This, too, would not have been possible without certain preparatory work during the Weimar period, and again it was not Hitler’s own work down to the last detail but in the main a tremendous achievement of the military establishment. But it was Hitler who gave the order and provided the inspiration. The military miracle is even less conceivable without Hitler’s decisive impetus than the economic miracle, and even more than the economic miracle, which was an improvisation on Hitler’s part, it stemmed from his long-cherished plans and intentions. That it did not, in Hitler’s hands, subsequently work to Germany’s benefit is a different matter. It remains an achievement nevertheless, and, just as the economic miracle, an achievement of which no one beforehand would have thought Hitler capable. That he accomplished it against all expectations produced amazement and admiration, though perhaps also a certain measure of anxiety on the part of some people. (What did he want all that frenzied rearmament for?) However, most people reacted to it with satisfaction and national pride. In the military as in the economic sphere Hitler had proved himself a miracle worker and only the most obdurate know-alls could now deny him their gratitude and allegiance.

Sebastian Haffner, The Meaning of Hitler (Folio Society, 2011), Pp. 27-30


Haffner also makes an important point as to the relevance of rearmament:

First, it has often been claimed that Hitler’s economic miracle and his military miracle were basically the same thing, that full employment was entirely, or at least predominantly, due to rearmament. That is not so. Certainly conscription removed a few hundreds of thousands of potential unemployed from the streets, and the mass production of tanks, guns and aircraft provided wages and livelihood for a few hundreds of thousands of metal and engineering workers. But the great bulk of the six million unemployed whom Hitler had inherited found re-employment in entirely normal civilian industries. Goering, who uttered a lot of boastful nonsense in the course of his life, then coined the misleading slogan of ‘guns instead of butter’. In actual fact, the Third Reich was producing guns and butter, and a great many other things.

Sebastian Haffner, The Meaning of Hitler (Folio Society, 2011), Pp. 30


Hitler even revolutionized the military around the world, in a way that nobody ever had before:

Hitler personally intervened and laid down the structure of the new Wehrmacht and hence its future manner of operation. He took the decision, against what was then still the overwhelming majority of the military experts, to create integrated, independently operating armoured divisions and tank armies. These novel army formations, possessed in 1938 only by the German Army, proved to be the campaign-deciding weapon during the first two years of the war. They were subsequently copied by all other armies.

Sebastian Haffner, The Meaning of Hitler (Folio Society, 2011), Pp. 31


Hitler was also immensely popular among more than 90% of the German people:

in 1938, Hitler had succeeded in winning over to himself the great majority of those who in 1933 had still voted against him — perhaps his greatest achievement of all. It was an achievement which the surviving older generation finds embarrassing and the posthumous younger generation incomprehensible. Today the ‘How could we?’ of the old and the ‘How could you?’ of the young trip easily off the tongue.

[...]

Those converted or semi-converted by the spectacle of Hitler’s achievements did not as a rule become National Socialists, but they became followers of Hitler, believers in the Führer. And they, at the peak of the general faith in the Führer, were certainly more than 90 per cent of all Germans.

A colossal achievement to have united virtually the entire nation behind him — and accomplished in less than ten years! Accomplished, moreover, on the whole not by demagogy but by achievement. When, in the twenties, Hitler had at his disposal nothing but his demagogy, his hypnotic oratory, his intoxicating and illusionist skills as a producer of mass spectacles he hardly ever gained more than 5 per cent of all Germans as his followers; in the Reichstag elections of 1928 it was 2.5 per cent. The next 40 per cent were driven into his arms by the economic plight of 1930-33 and by the total helpless failure of all other governments and parties in the face of that plight. The remaining, decisive, 50 per cent, however, he gained after 1933 mainly through his achievements. Anyone who, say in 1938, uttered a critical remark about Hitler, in circles where that was still possible, would inevitably, sooner or later — sometimes after half-hearted agreement (‘I don’t like that business with the Jews either’), — have received the answer, ‘But look at all the things the man has achieved!’ Not, for instance, ‘But isn’t he an enthralling speaker!’; nor, ‘But wasn’t he wonderful again at the last Party Rally!’; and not even, ‘But look at his successes!’ No, it was, ‘But look at all the things the man has achieved!’ And what, in 1938, or still in the spring of 1939, could one really reply to that?

Sebastian Haffner, The Meaning of Hitler (Folio Society, 2011), Pp. 32, 34

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Re: The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby Lamprecht » 2 years 4 months ago (Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:59 pm)

HMSendeavour wrote:Does anyone have any details regarding Marxism claims that Fascism and specifically National Socialist Germany was 'the final stages of Capitalism'?

I found a video on YouTube addressing this claim. "Fascism: Capitalism In Decay?" by Keith Woods:


A YouTube search for fascism will throw up a number of results from people of a left-wing persuasion. The premise to you explained: the phenomenon of fascism and its appeal. Many of these videos are remarkably similar in form and most rely on similar arguments, considering fascism to be a tool of reaction, created by hate, funded by capitalists, a force used to suppress socialism and progress. The commonly used expression is: 'fascism is capitalism in decay'...
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer


NOTE: I am taking a leave of absence from revisionism to focus on other things. At this point, the ball is in their court to show the alleged massive pits full of human remains at the so-called "extermination camps." After 8 decades they still refuse to do this. I wonder why...

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Re: The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby Otium » 2 years 4 months ago (Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:02 am)

Lamprecht wrote:I found a video on YouTube addressing this claim. "Fascism: Capitalism In Decay?" by Keith Woods:


Yes, I have posted this video on two occasions already: https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13714&p=100156#p100156, https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=13538&p=98707#p98707 and uploaded the book by James A. Gregor that Woods also cites.

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Re: The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby Otium » 2 years 4 months ago (Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:16 am)

I didn't quote this book in my earlier post which mentioned the working class nature of the National Socialists, so I'm going to do so now. Much of the differentiated views about the make-up of the NSDAP has been, as the historian H.W. Koch shows, at least in 1985, insufficient. Marxists lend credence, without substance, that the NSDAP was bourgeois and only their parties held room in the hearts of the working class. This is utterly untrue.

Thanks to Theodore Abel who published a book entitled 'Why Hitler Came to Power' by making use of 500-600 autobiographical letters from those who were members of the NSDAP prior to 1933 we have some data to illustrate various aspects of the structure of the NSDAP and SA during those years. There's probably NSDAP statistics as well, but this is just an example of what we have as it concerns the NSDAP and what we don't have for other political movements whose content is thus harder to characterise which makes the content of the National Socialists easier to scrutinize.

Historians who are generally left-wing, if not radically left wing, are thus at pains to discredit the NSDAP from having any such following at all. You'll routinely see demonstrations of the SA referred to as "propaganda of mass enthusiasm", which implies that the NSDAP had no support whatsoever, but just faked having support somehow by getting people to dress in uniform and enthusiastically promote National Socialism, that we're supposed to believe they don't actually believe in. Confusing I know. This is obviously bullshit, so such comments can be ignored. I only say this because recently I've been looking through some of these more technical books, and older general histories of the NSDAP and they're filled with this contradictory jargon.

Because of this, I was motivated to post this section from Koch's edited book 'Aspects of the Third Reich' to clear the air, and hopefully provide some actual answers by clarifying some empirical questions on the composition of the NSDAP, and that they did in-fact comprise members of the working class:

A structural analysis of the Third Reich has made headway only during the last decade and a half, but not as yet with sufficient impact to gain access into general textbooks. To a large extent this is the fault of some of the historians themselves, among whom little consensus exists on issues such as the social composition of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP) and on 'who voted for Hitler?' For example a study by Michael Kater on the social composition of the early NSDAP points to its being essentially petit bourgeois in character with few workers in its ranks. He arrives at this conclusion by counting as workers only unskilled labourers, while skilled workers are defined as lower middle class. Much the same crude approach is applied in Kater's The Nazi Party. A Social Profile of Members and Leaders, 1919-1945 where his definition of 'elite' includes the entrepreneur, the Untemehmer, an activity which could include almost anything. Certainly, for example, a rag and bone merchant would have described himself as an Unternehmer, though he would hardly have been a member of the elite. The American historian Max Kele on the other hand has convincingly demonstrated that National Socialism held a not inconsiderable appeal for the German workers. By 1933 approximately one-third of the members of the NSDAP were workers and the same applies to those who voted for Hitler. In the 1932 elections as well as that of March 1933 one-third of the NSDAP vote came from workers.

H.W. Koch, editor., Aspects of the Third Reich (Macmillan, 1985), Pp. 6-7.

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Re: The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby sfivdf21 » 2 years 2 months ago (Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:01 pm)

HMSendeavour wrote:I was taking a glance at the zero hedge article you listed https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-07/nazi-economic-mirage and some stuff struck me as odd.

He does admit the miracle was real, I think it would be foolish to deny it

Hitler’s policies are still viewed to this day as a great example of how unprecedented government intervention fixed a dire economic problem. In short, Hitler laid a golden egg and produced an economic miracle.


As early as 1933, even before any miracle could be seen, the New York Times had nothing but praise for his ambitions, according to the following front page headline:

“There is at least one official voice in Europe that expresses understanding of the methods and motives of President Roosevelt—the voice of Germany, as represented by Chancellor Adolf Hitler.”

For sure, some of Hitler’s policies made a lot of sense. Building up the country’s infrastructure, which was so vital to a modern industrial economy, proved to be a winning bet. German workers could now afford cars to drive in the new roads, as well as other modern conveniences. Economic activity and incomes responded accordingly. That Weimar Republic feeling of uncertainty and malaise finally subsided. And the dramatic increase in fertility rates during the Nazi years also provided a boost (after all, babies can promote consumption). So in a sense there was no mirage here, the growth was real.


But he also says some stuff I find rather baseless.

While farmers benefited from the elimination of debt and some aid from the government – such as fixating prices and production to promote that elusive autarky, their ability to finance crop expansions and purchases of new equipment was also reduced. The sector saw a continuous outflow of workers, who were now being employed in all the other government sponsored projects and the military.

As a result, agricultural productivity suffered and shortages of food developed across the country. In response, the Nazis implemented food rationing – which would remain in place until the end of the war. In 1937, annual consumption of wheat bread, meat, bacon, milk, eggs, fish, vegetables, sugar, fruit and beer had fallen to levels comparable to a decade earlier (only rye bread, cheese and potatoes had increased). Malnourishment was starting to become a real problem amongst German workers, in farms and factories across the country.

In typical fashion, rather than blaming his own policies, Hitler believed that this situation resulted from a lack of “space to live” for his people. All major European powers had access to vast territories in Africa and elsewhere. The US had a huge continent at its disposal. But not Germany, who had lost out in WWI and was now confined to its diminished borders.


It's true the agricultural sectors saw many people leave, this in itself shows the flexibility of the regime, the National Socialists weren't forcing anyone into these agricultural industries even though Himmler for example supposedly tried to set up old medieval communities. In Norbert Freis book he mentioned how the Germans were more attracted to higher paying factory work, being able to see the cities and be apart of a larger economic project. I can't see how this is supposed to be a bad thing.

In any case, he claims agricultural productivity suffered and rations were in place. This isn't entirely untrue, it's just not an accurate view of the big picture.

From Tooze's 'Wages of Destruction'

Already in the summer of 1935 there had been talk of the need to introduce ration cards for bread. For obvious reasons, this was deemed to be politically unacceptable. Instead, the RNS resorted to an organized programme of substitution through which bread flour was diluted with maize meal and even potato starch.65 In relation to meat and butter the regime was more forceful. To dole out the scarce supply of butter, a discreet system of rationing was introduced in the autumn of 1935, in the form of customer lists kept by the retail outlets. Similarly, the meat supply could not be completely insulated from the impact of the disastrous potato failure in 1935. To ensure that there were sufficient potatoes for human consumption, the RNS culled the pig population and pushed through a sharp increase in the price of pork products. In Berlin, the price of cooked ham was raised by almost 30 per cent between 1934 and 1936. From 1936 onwards the RNS also supplemented the German food balance through imports. More than a million tons of grain were imported in 1936. In 1937 imports rose to in excess of 1.6 million tons. In 1936 there can be no doubt that this was a measure of last resort dictated by the two years of poor harvests and the exhaustion of stocks.66 ----From 1937 onwards German production was more than adequate to meet domestic demand. Imports were used, not to support current consumption, but to rebuild national grain stocks, which by 1939 were sufficient to cover the population's bread supply for an entire year. ----RNS. At no point was the German population threatened with real food shortages.69 The 'shortages' of meat and butter were due not to a collapse in supply, but to a huge surge in demand, especially from working-class consumers. Newly re-employed Germans with money in their pockets simply did not want to eat the austere vegetarian diet publicly espoused by the Nazi leadership with their Sunday lunches of vegetable stew. [i]- Adam Tooze, The Wages of Destruction, pp. 193[/i]


In general, however, a wholesale increase in food prices was ruled out by fear of provoking the kind of public outrage that had shown itself in 1934. It was this political freezing of the price system that created the appearance of shortages, forcing the RNS to resort to more or less overt forms of rationing. It was not until 1938, with the appearance of real supply problems in dairy farming, that the regime finally raised the prices paid to German farmers for milk. But even then the increase was not passed on to consumers. The price increase thus helped to stimulate production but did nothing to restrain demand. - Adam Tooze, The Wages of Destruction, pp. 194


When we bear in mind the disastrous situation of world agriculture in the 1930sit is clear that German farmers, in fact, enjoyed a historically unprecedented level of protection and it is hardly surprising that this came at a price. In return for the exclusion of foreign competition from home markets, peasant smallholders had to accept comprehensive regulation and control. Farming in Germany, as in Europe generally, from the 1930s onwards resembled less and less a market-driven industry and more and more a strange hybrid of private ownership and state planning. The true story is told by the level of prices paid to German farmers compared to those that German farmers would have received if they had been exposed to the full force of foreign competition. On this basis the record is completely unambiguous. Though it is true that grain producers clearly enjoyed a larger margin of protection than dairy farmers, for all major types of farm produce the prices paid to German farmers under National Socialism were at least twice those prevailing on world markets. Of course, under Schacht's New Plan, German industry enjoyed blanket protection as well. So the really telling development after 1933 was the sharp improvement in the terms of trade between agriculture and industry. During the Depression, agricultural prices had fallen more than industrial prices. After 1933, the 'scissors' between industrial and agricultural prices shut abruptly. Agricultural prices rose more rapidly than industrial prices and, again, this was out of line with developments in global markets, where agriculture continued to lag behind. The promise Hitler made on the night of 30 January 1933 was to restore the economic fortunes of the German peasantry within four years and the RNS certainly made good on that pledge. According to figures calculated by Germany's most authoritative economic research agency, total farm income, of which animal products accounted for more than 60 per cent, rose by almost 14 per cent in 1933-4 and by another 11.5 per cent in 1934-5. At the same time the burden of taxes and interest payments on agriculture fell significantly.73 When we allow for the general deflation in prices, increases in money incomes on this scale more than made up for the Depression. The situation would have been even better if it had not been for the bad weather and poor harvest in 1934. - Adam Tooze, The Wages of Destruction, pp. 195


It becomes abundantly clear that what was written in Zero Hedge just simply isn't true, or is too simple to be taken seriously. I looked for supposed starvation and or malnourishment without finding anything, and if this were true it wouldn't have been the regimes fault as we've seen harvests played a significant part in the economy in this regard.

The part in the article about Hitler's need for living space being portrayed as some colossal lie created by him to mask his economic failings is just absurd. Tooze in his book makes plain that Germany had insufficient space (see the cultured thug video for the quote on this) and this was a common view in continental Europe. If it were so untrue there's no way Hitler would've gotten away with it. Not only that, but you'd need a significant amount of evidence to prove this blatant lie but fourth by Durden.


Hello HMSendeavor, I just published yet a thread to discuss about a "Youtuber historian" that deals with World War II who "debunks" the revisionists who say that World War II was a war provoked against Germany due to the successful Nationalsocialist economic system and says that Hitler's economic miracle was "artificial". Although his statements seem to me the typical propaganda to slander Adolf Hitler, I must recognize that I had never heard of many of the data that he mentions in his video, the thread perhaps it's a bit long, but it is worth reading.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=13944

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Re: The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby Moderator » 1 year 9 months ago (Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:39 am)

For more see:
Self proclaimed "Fascist Major" proves the Third Reich was Capitalist
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14138
Thanks, M1
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Re: The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby Hektor » 2 months 1 week ago (Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:24 am)

Otium wrote:I didn't quote this book in my earlier post which mentioned the working class nature of the National Socialists, so I'm going to do so now. Much of the differentiated views about the make-up of the NSDAP has been, as the historian H.W. Koch shows, at least in 1985, insufficient. Marxists lend credence, without substance, that the NSDAP was bourgeois and only their parties held room in the hearts of the working class. This is utterly untrue.
For the leadership and old school followers it is probably correct to say that they were not 'proletarians' in the sense the term was viewed as a time. But the same applies to the left-wing parties (Communists, Socialists, Social Democrats). Their leadership, functionaries and many of their members weren't 'proletarians' neither. As a matter of fact political movements do virtually always emerge from educated middle class circles. Which is btw. the reason governments try to control education. Essentially they try to prejudice those that become educated middle class in their favor.

Otium wrote:Thanks to Theodore Abel who published a book entitled 'Why Hitler Came to Power' by making use of 500-600 autobiographical letters from those who were members of the NSDAP prior to 1933 we have some data to illustrate various aspects of the structure of the NSDAP and SA during those years. There's probably NSDAP statistics as well, but this is just an example of what we have as it concerns the NSDAP and what we don't have for other political movements whose content is thus harder to characterise which makes the content of the National Socialists easier to scrutinize.
German state TV made a documentary on this (around 1980) interviewing former voters of the NSDAP. They were less concerned with their 'class background' although they all seem to be middle class of some sort. Small business, farmers, clerks, doctors and house wives from that background. They weren't poor people at the time neither, but very concerned that a lot of people at the time seemed to live in poverty/misery before the NSDAP took over. The program was concerned with the motives for voting the NSDAP. It included issues like 'ending unemployment', 'economic recovery', 'national security', 'dismissing Versailles', 'Volksgemeinschaft', "Anti-semitism". Interestingly "Anti-Semitism" did not figure high on the priorities, Instead economic recovery and social policy related issues did. All those interviewed made a good impression, people you would like to have as your neighbor, employee, boss, mate in a club, etc. Not exactly what interested circles wanted to portray "Nazis" as. So I don't think that sort of exercise would be repeated. Rather get some "Holocaust Survivors" on TV letting them tell the audience "How they suffered".


Otium wrote:Historians who are generally left-wing, if not radically left wing, are thus at pains to discredit the NSDAP from having any such following at all. You'll routinely see demonstrations of the SA referred to as "propaganda of mass enthusiasm", which implies that the NSDAP had no support whatsoever, but just faked having support somehow by getting people to dress in uniform and enthusiastically promote National Socialism, that we're supposed to believe they don't actually believe in. Confusing I know. This is obviously bullshit, so such comments can be ignored. I only say this because recently I've been looking through some of these more technical books, and older general histories of the NSDAP and they're filled with this contradictory jargon.


There was some "Working Class" following for the NSDAP right at the beginning, although it may actually have been lower than with the SPD percentage-wise. And well, it grew after the takeover, when workers noticed that there was indeed improvement for them in terms of employment and standard of living. Workers were also the more loyal NSDAP supporters. They gave it good ratings long after WW2, much to the disdain of leftist groups and parties. They never got appraisal of the same kind from the groups they always claimed to care about. That's probably why one barely gets interviews with workers about the NS-era. Those interviewed were virtually always educated upper middle class individuals who always gave the answers expected from them. I think the exposure to secondary materials is higher with the educated and lower with people that 'work with their hands'. The later rely on direct experiences for their judgment and they don't care in what ideological pigeon-hole they will be pressed. That's different with e.g. someone that has an academic position, he consumes more cultural production in the forms of 'documentaries' and books and is very concerned how others will judge him in terms of ideology. They are then either the decision makers or those that form the perceptions of former decision makers.

Otium wrote:Because of this, I was motivated to post this section from Koch's edited book 'Aspects of the Third Reich' to clear the air, and hopefully provide some actual answers by clarifying some empirical questions on the composition of the NSDAP, and that they did in-fact comprise members of the working class:

A structural analysis of the Third Reich has made headway only during the last decade and a half, but not as yet with sufficient impact to gain access into general textbooks. To a large extent this is the fault of some of the historians themselves, among whom little consensus exists on issues such as the social composition of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP) and on 'who voted for Hitler?' For example a study by Michael Kater on the social composition of the early NSDAP points to its being essentially petit bourgeois in character with few workers in its ranks. He arrives at this conclusion by counting as workers only unskilled labourers, while skilled workers are defined as lower middle class. Much the same crude approach is applied in Kater's The Nazi Party. A Social Profile of Members and Leaders, 1919-1945 where his definition of 'elite' includes the entrepreneur, the Untemehmer, an activity which could include almost anything. Certainly, for example, a rag and bone merchant would have described himself as an Unternehmer, though he would hardly have been a member of the elite. The American historian Max Kele on the other hand has convincingly demonstrated that National Socialism held a not inconsiderable appeal for the German workers. By 1933 approximately one-third of the members of the NSDAP were workers and the same applies to those who voted for Hitler. In the 1932 elections as well as that of March 1933 one-third of the NSDAP vote came from workers.

H.W. Koch, editor., Aspects of the Third Reich (Macmillan, 1985), Pp. 6-7.

Any owner of a private enterprise or sole proprietor that makes his money selling goods and services can count as an "Unternehmer". Doesn't even say, if he is rich or poor. There are various people that are probably wealthier than many "Unternehmers". Typically they would also have education and social connection at their disposal. Don't forget those with a passive income. People that have larger investments and can live off dividends those investments would deliver. E.g. Real Estate that provides rent. Shares in companies dividends, etc.
Those were people that 'did well' under other circumstances as well. The workers did however perceivably do better under National Socialism than under the previous 'democratic dispensation'. And that is probably one of the reasons NS got disparaged from the 1930s until now.

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Re: The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby Mortimer » 1 month 1 week ago (Sun Apr 30, 2023 2:20 am)

Host Van Tonningen was a member of a Dutch national socialist party. He met Hitler and Himmler prewar and during the occupation of Holland he worked in economics and finance. One of his tasks was to link the Dutch economy with the German one.
He died in captivity after surrendering to Canadian troops in 1945. They claim it was a "suicide". His widow thinks that he was killed and his death covered up by the Canadian authorities. This is her address at the IHR Conference in 1989.
https://codoh.com/library/document/for- ... ath-of/en/
There are 2 sides to every story - always listen or read both points of view and make up your own mind. Don't let others do your thinking for you.

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Re: The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby Hektor » 1 month 1 week ago (Mon May 01, 2023 4:04 am)

Mortimer wrote:Host Van Tonningen was a member of a Dutch national socialist party. He met Hitler and Himmler prewar and during the occupation of Holland he worked in economics and finance. One of his tasks was to link the Dutch economy with the German one.
He died in captivity after surrendering to Canadian troops in 1945. They claim it was a "suicide". His widow thinks that he was killed and his death covered up by the Canadian authorities. This is her address at the IHR Conference in 1989.
https://codoh.com/library/document/for- ... ath-of/en/


The name was Meinoud Marinus Rost van Tonningen.
Florentine Rost van Tonningen was the widow. She was a 'public figure' in the postwar era in the Netherlands. She continued to defend her husband and hence was disparaged publicly by public figures in the Netherlands. The issue was 'collaboration' with NS-Germany, which occupied the Netherlands in the 1940s.

But what about the Dutch elites that collaborated with the Allies, while the Netherlands pretended to be neutral?


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