I believe that is Krema III.
Your point well taken however, according to the story there were bodies piled up all around the crematorium awaiting cremation, which we see is not the case.
The photo is said to be of the Hungarian transport arrivals which, according to the story, meant that gassings and cremations were at peak levels...but then we see nothing like what is alleged.
It looks to be a pile of fuel; coke, perhaps wood. In either case that pile is ridiculously small considering the enormous proportions of the task that were allgedly underway. It could also be heating fuel for the occupants of the building.
Take note that the aerial photos of the period do not show the massive fuel dumps anywhere that would have been required...if the story were true.
Notice the lack of camouflage.
- Hannover
aerial photos
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Ok, this is the place to discuss the holes.
First, why not forget about the photos, the blueprints etc.; and send a team of experts to Auschwitz to do an investigation of the murder weapon. As stated before, the 'holes' I've been shown so far, are nothing but cracks in the concrete and damage done when the building was dynamited. When a form is placed befor the concrete is poured or a hole is cut later, the re-bar doesn't/ can't run through.(extra re-bar is placed around openings to prevent the floor/roof from cracking). As well, cutting holes later can endanger the integrity of the structure, depending on where they are. I read somewhere the holes were 70 x 70 cm. and close to the columns, that is almost impossible to plan for, nevermind cutting them in later.
The holes are only one problem I have with the gas-chambers, there are many more improbabilities, no matter what the witnesses say, but I'm willing to listen and learn.
Wilf
First, why not forget about the photos, the blueprints etc.; and send a team of experts to Auschwitz to do an investigation of the murder weapon. As stated before, the 'holes' I've been shown so far, are nothing but cracks in the concrete and damage done when the building was dynamited. When a form is placed befor the concrete is poured or a hole is cut later, the re-bar doesn't/ can't run through.(extra re-bar is placed around openings to prevent the floor/roof from cracking). As well, cutting holes later can endanger the integrity of the structure, depending on where they are. I read somewhere the holes were 70 x 70 cm. and close to the columns, that is almost impossible to plan for, nevermind cutting them in later.
The holes are only one problem I have with the gas-chambers, there are many more improbabilities, no matter what the witnesses say, but I'm willing to listen and learn.
Wilf
Max wrote: For example, the fact that the black spots are larger than the actual gas introduction chimneys could simply mean that the spots were caused by discoloration around the Zyklon-B introduction ports. In other words, the black spots do not represent the chimneys, but they indicate their presence.
According to the drawings there is about 0.5 m of earth on top of the ceiling of morgue 1. How can that discolor?
About the picture: The images of those alleged Zyklon-B chutes look out of proportion compared with the chimneys of adjacent buildings. To the right we see the kitchen of the Birkenau camp and on top of the roof several chimneys from the kitchen stoves. These chimneys would be of a similar cross-section as the alleged chutes, but there is no similarity. Also look below where the men’s barracks are. Also those chimneys appear quite different from the chutes. Or look down to the circular shaped sewage treatment ponds with the drive head in the center: sharp and clear contours, nothing patched.
To me there seems definitely to be something wrong with those black spots on the morgue 1 of Krema II.
According to the standard story, the 'little chimneys/Zykon-B induction ports', in which Zyklon-B was supposedly placed in order to kill Jews, protruded above the roof and above the dirt covering over the roof. Therefore they would necessarily cause shadows.
Note that in the photos the drawn on marks, which are said to be shadows by some of the Believers, do not follow the same angle as the other, real shadows in the photo.
If anyone says that those markings aren't shadows, then the whole story about the 'little chimneys/Zykon-B induction ports' falls apart, since they necessarily would cast shadows. And there goes the Auschwtz/Birkenau gas chambers.
My my, the problems the 'holocau$t' Industry has made for themselves by lying.
- Hannover
Note that in the photos the drawn on marks, which are said to be shadows by some of the Believers, do not follow the same angle as the other, real shadows in the photo.
If anyone says that those markings aren't shadows, then the whole story about the 'little chimneys/Zykon-B induction ports' falls apart, since they necessarily would cast shadows. And there goes the Auschwtz/Birkenau gas chambers.
My my, the problems the 'holocau$t' Industry has made for themselves by lying.
- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
neugierig wrote:Ok, this is the place to discuss the holes.
First, why not forget about the photos, the blueprints etc.;
yeah, sure. Let's forget evidence supporting the mass extermination.
and send a team of experts to Auschwitz to do an investigation of the murder weapon.
Why? The murder weapon in Auschwitz is already very well documented.
As stated before, the 'holes' I've been shown so far, are nothing but cracks in the concrete and damage done when the building was dynamited.
The hole I showed you yesterday does not look like a crack in the concrete or damage. It looks like a square hole deliberately made into the roof.
http://www.mazal.org/Auschwitz%20jpg/KII/KII-20034.htm
When a form is placed befor the concrete is poured or a hole is cut later, the re-bar doesn't/ can't run through.(extra re-bar is placed around openings to prevent the floor/roof from cracking).
The rebar doesn't run through. It was cut quadratic around the square holes.
neugierig wrote:The spots don't represent anything but they indicate that something is there?
I try it again: The black spots are likely discoloration on the roof. Thus the area covered by the black spots is not the same as the area covered by the ports or its small shadow (that's what I meant with "the black spots do not represent the chimnies"). The area of the black spots is actually larger than the area covered by the ports and its shadows, the additionial area is probably discoloration. However, the reason why there is any discoloration on the roof is that they are gas introduction ports on the roof around which SS men with gas-masks were walking during the gassings. Therefore the photographs are supplementary evidence for the presence of these ports. In short, the discoloration is there because the gas ports are there. See, there are not 2 or 10 spots on the roof. The spots are not located at the edges or in the corners. They are FOUR and they are located in the middle slightly alternating, that's exactly how the little gas introduction chimnies were predicted by witnesses and as they are shown on a SS ground photo.
That's strong and independant confirmation for homicidal gas-chambers in Auschwitz.
As far as the building itself goes, from the air it looks just like any other building, no evidence of 'gassings'.
It's a crematorium and the roof in question was called "gassing cellar" by the head of the SS construction department. Not even Revisionists deny this.
Max ignores my post, which was:
But he continues to talk about shadows which should exist, and they should not go in a differerent direction than the real shadows...see crematory chimney shadow. But there are no shadows, unless he wants to claim that the shadows are the drwan in marks which go in different directions than the real shadows.
Max says:
Now see Germar Rudolf utterly demolish that statement here:
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/RudolfOnVanPelt.html
and
http://www.codoh.com/found/fndgcger.html
- Hannover
According to the standard story, the 'little chimneys/Zykon-B induction ports', in which Zyklon-B was supposedly placed in order to kill Jews, protruded above the roof and above the dirt covering over the roof. Therefore they would necessarily cause shadows.
Note that in the photos the drawn on marks, which are said to be shadows by some of the Believers, do not follow the same angle as the other, real shadows in the photo.
If anyone says that those markings aren't shadows, then the whole story about the 'little chimneys/Zykon-B induction ports' falls apart, since they necessarily would cast shadows.
And there goes the Auschwtz/Birkenau gas chambers.
But he continues to talk about shadows which should exist, and they should not go in a differerent direction than the real shadows...see crematory chimney shadow. But there are no shadows, unless he wants to claim that the shadows are the drwan in marks which go in different directions than the real shadows.
Max says:
They are FOUR and they are located in the middle slightly alternating, that's exactly how the little gas introduction chimnies
were predicted by witnesses and as they are shown on a SS ground photo.
Now see Germar Rudolf utterly demolish that statement here:
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/RudolfOnVanPelt.html
and
http://www.codoh.com/found/fndgcger.html
- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
Max actually said?:
The "orthodox" interpretation of the marks is that they include "the shadows of the vents, but also including roof discoloration marks perhaps from people walking around the area of the vents, causing discoloration of the roof, which showed up as the marks visible in the photos of the roof of the gas chamber" (Dino A. Brugioni, one of the authors of the CIA report, paraphrased by Charles Provan http://www.revisingrevisionism.com )
==============================================
Gee. Max, would you have any idea why the tread marks aren't connected to each other if they were in fact a beaten patch by attending exterminators? Also shouldn't one expect to see a beaten path going from off the cellar roof up onto it also.
The "orthodox" interpretation of the marks is that they include "the shadows of the vents, but also including roof discoloration marks perhaps from people walking around the area of the vents, causing discoloration of the roof, which showed up as the marks visible in the photos of the roof of the gas chamber" (Dino A. Brugioni, one of the authors of the CIA report, paraphrased by Charles Provan http://www.revisingrevisionism.com )
==============================================
Gee. Max, would you have any idea why the tread marks aren't connected to each other if they were in fact a beaten patch by attending exterminators? Also shouldn't one expect to see a beaten path going from off the cellar roof up onto it also.
Ok, ok, lets keep the picture as proof, but IMHO, calling a picture with black spots of unknown origin “proof” is a sign of desperation. I personally like the one with the shadows going every which way, must be the sun playing tricks. 
Now to the hole Mazal et al found. First, why look now? The accusations were made in 1945, one would assume they were based on facts, but as it turns out nobody knows were the much talked about holes are to this day. This is sloppy investigation, I demand a new trial. But if we are finally going to locate the holes, then lets send an unbiased team to do it and not someone who is trying to proof a point. If they are there, they are there, I don’t know what happened, but I don’t believe the story as told.
And now to the ’Vergasungskeller’ document, and here I ask for the moderators patience as I’ll wander a bit. Yes the document exists, but why is it here? Everything was to be hush hush, why then even name a room Vergasungskeller (I have a problem with that word) and write it down when it was used to murder people quietly. But the strangest part is, that the document even exists, if it has a sinister meaning. The Nazis managed to kill 6 million Jews and thousands (millions?) other leaving nary a body, destroyed killing apparatuses (the one with the hydraulic floor must have been a chore) to wipe out the traces and then they leave all those incriminating documents laying around. (The claim that there was no time is ridicules, one could hear the noises of war days ahead of the front, I heard them, ample time to clean out the drawers, check the basement, the attic.) Unless of course, the documents are not incriminating at all when taken in context. Maybe there was an explanatory document attached to the Vergasungskeller one and that’s why it was left, since there was nothing to hide. Do we have all the documents? Looking at the report of Justice Jackson from June 7, 1945 I can’t help but wonder, it states “(I)....visited the European Theater to expedite the examination of captured documents, and the interrogation of witnesses and prisoners;...” (the whole report can be found at the Avalon Project) It was the allies who compiled the ‘evidence’, the defence had no idea what was going on. One more example. The Reinhard (sp?) camps. We have transportation records for Jews being taken there and non showing them leaving, so the reasoning goes, where are all those Jews? Again, why leave the documents when the physical evidence was destroyed? Could it be, and I think it likely, that the transportation documents we have are part of a whole? That there were indeed documents showing Jews being send on, nobody claims that Jews weren‘t moved about, and that’s why they were left to be found, nothing to hide, just transportation documents. When I read Jackson’s report, I get suspicious. A little ’creative’ interpretation and sorting of the evidence and “presto”, we have incriminating stuff. Can I proof this? Of course not, but when the prosecution gets involved in the gathering of evidence, and no one from the defence is present, I have a right to be suspicious.
Wilf
PS.: I see Max is banned again, too bad, I was just getting warmed up.
Now to the hole Mazal et al found. First, why look now? The accusations were made in 1945, one would assume they were based on facts, but as it turns out nobody knows were the much talked about holes are to this day. This is sloppy investigation, I demand a new trial. But if we are finally going to locate the holes, then lets send an unbiased team to do it and not someone who is trying to proof a point. If they are there, they are there, I don’t know what happened, but I don’t believe the story as told.
And now to the ’Vergasungskeller’ document, and here I ask for the moderators patience as I’ll wander a bit. Yes the document exists, but why is it here? Everything was to be hush hush, why then even name a room Vergasungskeller (I have a problem with that word) and write it down when it was used to murder people quietly. But the strangest part is, that the document even exists, if it has a sinister meaning. The Nazis managed to kill 6 million Jews and thousands (millions?) other leaving nary a body, destroyed killing apparatuses (the one with the hydraulic floor must have been a chore) to wipe out the traces and then they leave all those incriminating documents laying around. (The claim that there was no time is ridicules, one could hear the noises of war days ahead of the front, I heard them, ample time to clean out the drawers, check the basement, the attic.) Unless of course, the documents are not incriminating at all when taken in context. Maybe there was an explanatory document attached to the Vergasungskeller one and that’s why it was left, since there was nothing to hide. Do we have all the documents? Looking at the report of Justice Jackson from June 7, 1945 I can’t help but wonder, it states “(I)....visited the European Theater to expedite the examination of captured documents, and the interrogation of witnesses and prisoners;...” (the whole report can be found at the Avalon Project) It was the allies who compiled the ‘evidence’, the defence had no idea what was going on. One more example. The Reinhard (sp?) camps. We have transportation records for Jews being taken there and non showing them leaving, so the reasoning goes, where are all those Jews? Again, why leave the documents when the physical evidence was destroyed? Could it be, and I think it likely, that the transportation documents we have are part of a whole? That there were indeed documents showing Jews being send on, nobody claims that Jews weren‘t moved about, and that’s why they were left to be found, nothing to hide, just transportation documents. When I read Jackson’s report, I get suspicious. A little ’creative’ interpretation and sorting of the evidence and “presto”, we have incriminating stuff. Can I proof this? Of course not, but when the prosecution gets involved in the gathering of evidence, and no one from the defence is present, I have a right to be suspicious.
Wilf
PS.: I see Max is banned again, too bad, I was just getting warmed up.
A Question of Camouflage
Let's see...
KIII in 1943. No camouflage.
KII in what appears to be 1944. No screen of bushes or other form of camouflage. (Please note, well smoked chimney!)
Hungarian action, 1944. KII in the distance. Frankly, I'm not sure about this one. I tried using a photo editing program and sharpened the image. There's a grey shade (a hedge?) along the fence of the crematorium, yet the fence poles still stand out well. On the other hand this shade (which is the same colour as the background trees by the way) is only apparent at the front, sides seem to lack the "camouflage" and indeed I believe features of the building are discernible through the fence. Why cover only one angle of the crematorium from view?
Reflection: The group of people on the left side of the track are allegedly heading for the gaschamber at KII. How will they all fit into it? Considering KII has a rough incineration capacity of 360 adult corpses in 24 h, where will the surplus people await their turn being gassed as the Sonderkommandos clear the gaschamber?
KIII at the same time. No bush, hedge or any other form of plantlife serving as "Tarnung". I agree that's an inference that might be true to a certain airphoto, as Max pointed out, provided this photo was taken at the same time.
Still, if the 'hedges' existed and were indeed meant as camouflage, why cover one of the crematoria and leave the other in full view? Doesn't make any sense. Both KII and KIII were operational during the Hungarian action, were they not?
Scott, I asked myself the same question once. However, if the stuff along the wall of KIII was a heap of dead bodies, I'm sure the passers by would appear less relaxed. Okay, they look strained, (awful journey, carrying children) but not shocked and terrified.
Wilf, there is definitely more to the "Vergasungskammer" note. I'm sure Max will be delighted to give a lecture on the subject when he returns.
Cheers,
Snafu
KIII in 1943. No camouflage.
KII in what appears to be 1944. No screen of bushes or other form of camouflage. (Please note, well smoked chimney!)
Hungarian action, 1944. KII in the distance. Frankly, I'm not sure about this one. I tried using a photo editing program and sharpened the image. There's a grey shade (a hedge?) along the fence of the crematorium, yet the fence poles still stand out well. On the other hand this shade (which is the same colour as the background trees by the way) is only apparent at the front, sides seem to lack the "camouflage" and indeed I believe features of the building are discernible through the fence. Why cover only one angle of the crematorium from view?
Reflection: The group of people on the left side of the track are allegedly heading for the gaschamber at KII. How will they all fit into it? Considering KII has a rough incineration capacity of 360 adult corpses in 24 h, where will the surplus people await their turn being gassed as the Sonderkommandos clear the gaschamber?
KIII at the same time. No bush, hedge or any other form of plantlife serving as "Tarnung". I agree that's an inference that might be true to a certain airphoto, as Max pointed out, provided this photo was taken at the same time.
Still, if the 'hedges' existed and were indeed meant as camouflage, why cover one of the crematoria and leave the other in full view? Doesn't make any sense. Both KII and KIII were operational during the Hungarian action, were they not?
Scott, I asked myself the same question once. However, if the stuff along the wall of KIII was a heap of dead bodies, I'm sure the passers by would appear less relaxed. Okay, they look strained, (awful journey, carrying children) but not shocked and terrified.
Wilf, there is definitely more to the "Vergasungskammer" note. I'm sure Max will be delighted to give a lecture on the subject when he returns.
Cheers,
Snafu
If you take a look at the photo of KII from the Auschwitz museum, posted by Snafu, you'll notice at the left of the picture, immediately beneath the 2 first windows, a long dark patch.
I was wondering if this mark isn't simply formed by patches of grass or weeds on the roof of the alleged gas chamber. If I'm not mistaken, this mark roughly spans the width of the Leichenkeller as it would be seen from the water treatment plants.
The spots that can be seen on the aerial photo at http://www.mazal.org/Auschwitz%20Aerial/Frame-3186-cu.htm are too irregular to even look like "introduction vents". I would suggest they are just irregular patches of grass or weeds.
I was wondering if this mark isn't simply formed by patches of grass or weeds on the roof of the alleged gas chamber. If I'm not mistaken, this mark roughly spans the width of the Leichenkeller as it would be seen from the water treatment plants.
The spots that can be seen on the aerial photo at http://www.mazal.org/Auschwitz%20Aerial/Frame-3186-cu.htm are too irregular to even look like "introduction vents". I would suggest they are just irregular patches of grass or weeds.
There's a grey shade (a hedge?) along the fence of the crematorium, yet the fence poles still stand out well. On the other hand this shade (which is the same colour as the background trees by the way) is only apparent at the front, sides seem to lack the "camouflage" and indeed I believe features of the building are discernible through the fence. Why cover only one angle of the crematorium from view?
If anyone can get this picture posted at a site where it has more pixels I would be interested. As it is, the above paragraph can easily be explained by a hedge, perhaps privet or something similar planted to eventually block the sound and dust from the train. Perhaps these are the "various shrubs" in the SS purchase order concerning landscaping material, or maybe they were produced as regular agricultural activity which required hedges at that time, and in that area of the world.
Hey, where are Max' posts? I made a copy of one before the moderator could delete it:
max wrote:Gee. Max, would you have any idea why the tread marks aren't connected to each other if they were in fact a beaten patch by attending exterminators? Also shouldn't one expect to see a beaten path going from off the cellar roof up onto it also
According to TMoran and Sailor, if the "exterminationist thesis" is true, there should be a path on the roof.
Let's take a look on the August 25 Air Photo of the homicidal gas-chambers of crematorium II :
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 17-kr2.jpg
Starting from the Southmost gas introduction port (first spot coming from the top) a beaten path is visible in the middle of the roof connecting the black spots. The straight path ends with the nothernmost gas introduction port and turns west until the roof ends. This is of course nothing else than the path the SS men equipped with gas-masks and Zyklon-B were going. They climbed up the roof walked to the northernmost gas port, introduced the poison gas pellets into homicidal gas-chamber and walked on to the next ports and back.
So what Sailor and TMoran expected to be visible on the aerial photo if the exterminationist "thesis" is true, can be indeed observed on the August 25 photograph. Many thanks to them for providing yet another piece of independent confirmation for mass extermination in Auschwitz.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
zkebdig wonders:
Hey, where are Max' posts? I made a copy of one before the moderator could delete it:
How very fortunate that you managed to save one before it and the others mysteriously disappeared.
zkebdig quoting Max who quoted Moran:
max wrote:
Quote:
Gee. Max, would you have any idea why the tread marks aren't connected to each other if they were in fact a beaten patch by attending exterminators? Also shouldn't one expect to see a beaten path going from off the cellar roof up onto it also
zkebdig comments:
"According to TMoran and Sailor, if the "exterminationist thesis" is true, there should be a path on the roof.
Let's take a look on the August 25 Air Photo of the homicidal gas-chambers of crematorium II :
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 17-kr2.jpg
Starting from the Southmost gas introduction port (first spot coming from the top) a beaten path is visible in the middle of the roof connecting the black spots. The straight path ends with the nothernmost gas introduction port and turns west until the roof ends. This is of course nothing else than the path the SS men equipped with gas-masks and Zyklon-B were going. They climbed up the roof walked to the northernmost gas port, introduced the poison gas pellets into homicidal gas-chamber and walked on to the next ports and back.
So what Sailor and TMoran expected to be visible on the aerial photo if the exterminationist "thesis" is true, can be indeed observed on the August 25 photograph. Many thanks to them for providing yet another piece of independent confirmation for mass extermination in Auschwitz."
Gee, you say "a beaten path is visible in the middle of the roof"? You mean where we can just make out some faint vestige between the black stand out like a sore thumb marks? You say, maybe, that the mass exterminators trod heavily around the holes and then tippy toed from one to the next? I have to wonder about this climbing onto the roof that you seem to have to admit to. Nothing there to show a beaten path?
I like the explanations for why the black marks are so inky black, that the trodding around wore away the dirt from around the holes to the bituminous felt ('tar paper') layer and that would explain the inky stand out like a sore thumb blackness. The reason I like those 'explanations' is because I have seen the various photos of the cellar of Crema II taken while it was under construction. We have that one that shows the stacks rising up about 2½ feet and another one that shows the cellars after the dirt was put on. It appears there would have been at least 18 inches of dirt. In that case I get a picture of holes around the holes (stacks). Then I get a picture of the Germans having to step down into the holes? Of course then I would get a picture of the Germans having to step up out of the holes.
Say, you wouldn't have an explanation for where the dirt went to that was trampled away do you?
zkebdig wonders:
Hey, where are Max' posts? I made a copy of one before the moderator could delete it:
How very fortunate that you managed to save one before it and the others mysteriously disappeared.
zkebdig quoting Max who quoted Moran:
max wrote:
Quote:
Gee. Max, would you have any idea why the tread marks aren't connected to each other if they were in fact a beaten patch by attending exterminators? Also shouldn't one expect to see a beaten path going from off the cellar roof up onto it also
zkebdig comments:
"According to TMoran and Sailor, if the "exterminationist thesis" is true, there should be a path on the roof.
Let's take a look on the August 25 Air Photo of the homicidal gas-chambers of crematorium II :
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 17-kr2.jpg
Starting from the Southmost gas introduction port (first spot coming from the top) a beaten path is visible in the middle of the roof connecting the black spots. The straight path ends with the nothernmost gas introduction port and turns west until the roof ends. This is of course nothing else than the path the SS men equipped with gas-masks and Zyklon-B were going. They climbed up the roof walked to the northernmost gas port, introduced the poison gas pellets into homicidal gas-chamber and walked on to the next ports and back.
So what Sailor and TMoran expected to be visible on the aerial photo if the exterminationist "thesis" is true, can be indeed observed on the August 25 photograph. Many thanks to them for providing yet another piece of independent confirmation for mass extermination in Auschwitz."
Gee, you say "a beaten path is visible in the middle of the roof"? You mean where we can just make out some faint vestige between the black stand out like a sore thumb marks? You say, maybe, that the mass exterminators trod heavily around the holes and then tippy toed from one to the next? I have to wonder about this climbing onto the roof that you seem to have to admit to. Nothing there to show a beaten path?
I like the explanations for why the black marks are so inky black, that the trodding around wore away the dirt from around the holes to the bituminous felt ('tar paper') layer and that would explain the inky stand out like a sore thumb blackness. The reason I like those 'explanations' is because I have seen the various photos of the cellar of Crema II taken while it was under construction. We have that one that shows the stacks rising up about 2½ feet and another one that shows the cellars after the dirt was put on. It appears there would have been at least 18 inches of dirt. In that case I get a picture of holes around the holes (stacks). Then I get a picture of the Germans having to step down into the holes? Of course then I would get a picture of the Germans having to step up out of the holes.
Say, you wouldn't have an explanation for where the dirt went to that was trampled away do you?
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